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    RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

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    Viktor

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:23 pm

    Its going to happen, S-400 and Su-35BM




    China eyes purchase of Russia's Su-35 fighter


    Beijing is interested in buying Russia's new Su-35 multirole fighter, according to the President of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Mikhail Pogosyan.
    "The Chinese are showing interest in this jet. But we have agreements that we disclose information only upon reaching actual agreements. So, I am not going to comment on the pace of negotiations," Pogosyan said at the China International Aviation & Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai.
    Russia is going to present a prototype of the Su-35 at the air show in China in two years time. "I think in 2014 we will demonstrate state-of-the-art combat in a demonstration flight at the Zhuhai exhibition," Pogosyan said.
    The Sukhoi Su-35 is a single-seat, twin-engine super-manoeuvrable multirole fighter. It is a derivative of the Su-27M, used by the Russian Knights aerobatic team. The Russian Knights are taking part in the air show in Zhunai and are expected to make 9 demonstration flights.
    Earlier this year China purchased more than 50 Russian Mi-171 helicopters and AL-31F engines, in deals worth $1.3 billion. Defence exports to China from Russia have reached $2 billion and form “approximately 15 percent” of Russian Military exports in 2011, according to Russia’s Federal Military-Technical Cooperation Service.
    Laos and Indonesia are also reportedly showing a great deal of interest in Russian aircraft, particularly in the Sukhoi Superjet 100 airliner. India is also negotiating with Russia to upgrade its fleet of Sukhoi Su-30s with new radar and avionics, IANS news agency reported, citing sources in the Indian Air Force (IAF). The upgrades are likely to begin in 2015.
    Airshow China 2012 with more than 30 foreign delegations attending opened in the southern city of Zhuhai on November 13th and will last until November 18th.

    http://rt.com/business/news/china-su-35-purchase-653/

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    Sujoy

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Sujoy on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:51 pm

    One thing is for sure , as is evident from the ongoing Zuhai AirShow in China it will take China hardly any time to make Chinese copies of the SU 35 & S 400 .

    Take a look at one of the copies ( below pic ) :

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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:25 pm

    Su-35 isn't going to happen at this point, just wishful Sukhoi thinking.

    It is clear they negotiated for some in the past, but Russia wasn't intersted in selling a few examples. Now its 2012, Su-35 production is entirely swamped for VVS, and China has made big strides on its own FLankers.

    Not happening, they arn't going to buy a sizable batch of Su-35s.

    S-400 is another topic though.
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:26 pm

    Sujoy wrote:One thing is for sure , as is evident from the ongoing Zuhai AirShow in China it will take China hardly any time to make Chinese copies of the SU 35 & S 400 .

    Take a look at one of the copies ( below pic ) :


    Copying S-400 is not exactly an easy task- they still have not copied a similarly performing S-300PMU2.

    I don't have an issue with S-400 sales to China in the latter part of the decade.

    BTW what is that photo of?

    I don't see a copy of anything....
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    Sujoy

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:42 am

    TR1 wrote:BTW what is that photo of?

    I don't see a copy of anything....

    I didn't get the entire picture . This is a Chinese attempt to replicate the Pantsir. As of now this is a proof of concept .

    ricky123

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    RUSSIA - CHINA Contracts:

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:28 pm

    Russia and china are finalizing deal for sale of 48 aircraft’s of Sukhoi su 35, but many defence experts around the world are puzzled with Russian stupidity or just lack of business sense. China has a large fleet of Sukhoi su 30MKK and have reversed engineered older Sukhoi su 27K and have named them J-11.China had ordered 200 Sukhoi Su 27 but cancelled the order when 100 aircraft’s were delivered and started manufacturing reversed engineered Sukhoi 27 with their own air frame modifications and also cracked Russian software on Sukhoi 27 to enable it to fire their own locally developed weapons systems.

    Russia on the other hand made right noises, and Rosoboron export`s general manager Anatoli Isaykin in MAKS 2009 aero show said Russia will investigate the J-11B Chinese copy of Su-27 and Sukhoi was part of the process, no action and only talk, fuelled speculation of a secret deal between Russian and china on this matter, china was also able to make a reversed engineered Sukhoi 33 for its aircraft carrier without much noise from Russia.

    No matter what level of technology was reversed by china, Russia only did lip service and continued supply of AL-31 engines to J-10 Program of China and never objected to resale of Russian built Klimov RD-93 engines to Pakistan for their JF-17 aircraft’s.

    Purchase of limited (48 Nos) by china is leading to speculation that its token order for reversed engineered aircraft’s to be followed, J-10 has been dubbed in Chinese media has better aircraft then Sukhoi 30MKK and Sukhoi 27K, recent test flights of china’s two stealth fighters indicate that china might be shopping for new avionics and other systems (Ew, engines) for this aircraft’s and what better then purchase of latest 4+++ gen fighter aircraft in form of Sukhoi su 35.

    When it comes to India, Russia surely has a different attitude towards its intellectual property rights; India has been Purchasing Russian weapons for more than 5 decades now but not once has reversed engineered any of weapons but when it comes to TOT of its legally bidding transfers, Russia has always made India dance to its tune, prime examples are of refusal to give India TOT on T-90 Gun barrel where India is forced to use older Gun barrel of T-72 tanks , Even tires for IAF’s Sukhoi Su 30MKI fleet comes from Russia , since they refuse India to source it from Indian companies .

    India on the other hand funded many of the technology which are been used by their forces , prime examples are Mig-29K which was first ordered by Indian Navy and after production line was setup from Indian funds , Russian navy went ahead ordered Mig-29K for its own use, abandoning any further development of Sukhoi su33 , it current naval aircraft’s . Russian air force also has ordered Sukhoi su 30SM which is a Variant based on Sukhoi su 30MKI which India had funded.

    India even in Joint ventures like BrahMos had to complete with Russian systems hurting its export potential, India had to enter into Joint venture with Russia on key project like MTA and Pak-Fa on Russian terms, with limited or no contribution from Indian side, India needs to be careful when dealing with Russia now, Indian funded projects might find their way into its enemies hand.


    http://idrw.org/?p=15948#more-15948
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:46 pm

    but many defence experts around the world are puzzled with Russian stupidity or just lack of business sense.

    Those business "experts" may want to stop lecturing the 2nd biggest arms exporter in the world over business.

    China's copying, while annoying, has never hurt Russia or its defense prospects.

    This article is embarrassing to read.

    In what universe is 48 birds a token order?

    ricky123

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  ricky123 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:58 pm

    there r lot of concerns here .first russia sells rd93 engines which are not only used by chinese but also pakistan ..
    now su-35 which will close the gap which india had over china with su30mki....
    argument can be made that by the time this is delivered india and russia will have pakfa and fgfa .. but su30 is the leading fighter for india ..

    also can u comment on the bold part of the article. if there is any truth in that . i think there is alot of curruption in india .otherwise all of those were bad deals ..
    i personally feel after reading this india should pull out of the pakfa project before it is too late.. cuz india doesnt really need 5th gen fighter right now ..we should concentrate on amca and make it in india only ....
    india pulling out of pakfa wont hurt russian project ..since russia is committed to that ...india should instead buy eurofighter and rafale in more numbers .....
    any chinese 5thgen fighter can be countered with rafale
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:24 pm

    ricky123 wrote:there r lot of concerns here .first russia sells rd93 engines which are not only used by chinese but also pakistan ..
    1.) Business is business. China is a much bigger trading partner for Russia than India is.
    It is the unfortunate reality.


    now su-35 which will close the gap which india had over china with su30mki....
    Yes true. But the S-400 will be an even bigger problem for India when China buys it- hell they already have the PMU2. Arms export is an important source of income for Russian defense industry however, what argument can India make to compel Russia to reconsider? Really none.

    argument can be made that by the time this is delivered india and russia will have pakfa and fgfa .. but su30 is the leading fighter for india ..
    We could also look @ India's deals with the US- who support Pakistan to a much greater degree than any Russian RD93 sales. That doesn't stop Indian-US military transactions from happening.

    i personally feel after reading this india should pull out of the pakfa project before it is too late.. cuz india doesnt really need 5th gen fighter right now ..we should concentrate on amca and make it in india only ....
    India doesn't really have that option- a fully domestic AMCA might be ready when? 2025? Will it even be as capable as other 5th gens at that point? The Tejas is not a good precedent.
    With PAK-FA India guarantees early delivery - production set up within the country, as well the ability to plug in whatever indigenous components it wants, before the design is finished.


    india pulling out of pakfa wont hurt russian project ..since russia is committed to that ...india should instead buy eurofighter and rafale in more numbers .....
    any chinese 5thgen fighter can be countered with rafale
    Not about hurting Russia, but about hurting India.
    1.) Buying Rafale and Eurofighter at the same time would be a terrible idea.
    2.) Rafale's ability to counter new Chinese fighters later this decade is dubious. Not enough information to say, but I find it hard to believe it will enjoy any sort of advantage over the new birds.
    3.) Check how much money India is putting into PAK-FA and into buying Rafales- if anything the latter looks like a massive rip-off.
    4.) Rafale is an excellent bird, but it is generationaly far behind PAK-FA. India will only start receiving domestic examples late in the decade-that is uncomfortable close to when PAK-FA is finishing development. India already has a superb 4th gen bird in the Su-30MKI, and with the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 upgrades, I think there is enough to cover needs untill PAK-FA comes along.
    None of this would be a problem if Tejas actually had any sort of success Sad - India would not need to buy an expensive, 4th gen stopgap - let alone one that is twin engine and as expensive as Rafale




    Mindstorm

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Mindstorm on Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:48 pm


    I truly don't understand how is even possible to cite a similar piece of comical theatre and call even it "Article" !! Razz

    IDRW....What is that ?

    If i should take an hint from the ridiculous and....horribly biased....content of this piece, i could advance the hypothesis that it is nothing other than the umpteenth new "engineered" media in part subsidized by some western company to "stealthy" advance theirs interests in India.

    Naturally the fact that the author has attempted to attack ,in the same "piece", three of the most important military programs between India and Russia (some of which represent even the envy of any similar program worldwide Laughing Laughing ) : T-90, SU-30MKI and BrahMos lead me to think that them are true newcomers of the field and have still a mountain of things to learn from theirs more experienced mercenary cousins.



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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  ricky123 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:44 am

    Mindstorm wrote:
    I truly don't understand how is even possible to cite a similar piece of comical theatre and call even it "Article" !! Razz

    IDRW....What is that ?

    If i should take an hint from the ridiculous and....horribly biased....content of this piece, i could advance the hypothesis that it is nothing other than the umpteenth new "engineered" media in part subsidized by some western company to "stealthy" advance theirs interests in India.

    Naturally the fact that the author has attempted to attack ,in the same "piece", three of the most important military programs between India and Russia (some of which represent even the envy of any similar program worldwide Laughing Laughing ) : T-90, SU-30MKI and BrahMos lead me to think that them are true newcomers of the field and have still a mountain of things to learn from theirs more experienced mercenary cousins.
    are u saying what is written in the article is not true ???

    ricky123

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  ricky123 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:01 am

    TR1 wrote:
    ricky123 wrote:there r lot of concerns here .first russia sells rd93 engines which are not only used by chinese but also pakistan ..
    1.) Business is business. China is a much bigger trading partner for Russia than India is.
    It is the unfortunate reality.

    china will copy russian stuff and sell it to other countries which buy weapons from russia how is it good for bussiness ???


    Yes true. But the S-400 will be an even bigger problem for India when China buys it- hell they already have the PMU2. Arms export is an important source of income for Russian defense industry however, what argument can India make to compel Russia to reconsider? Really none.
    india cannot compell any country for that matter .but isnt the chinese a threat to russia as well ???


    We could also look @ India's deals with the US- who support Pakistan to a much greater degree than any Russian RD93 sales. That doesn't stop Indian-US military transactions from happening.
    india dint buy any assualt weapons only apache so far .f16/f18/f35 all rejected ..but now usa is doing a U turn on pakistan so india is opening up ...or maybe they just bribing the india politicians

    India doesn't really have that option- a fully domestic AMCA might be ready when? 2025? Will it even be as capable as other 5th gens at that point? The Tejas is not a good precedent.
    With PAK-FA India guarantees early delivery - production set up within the country, as well the ability to plug in whatever indigenous components it wants, before the design is finished.

    (guarantees early delivery - production) those word should not be used when tallking about russian exports lol Smile
    india doesnt really need fgfa right now ... the rafale su30 mki will do the job for now .. but for future like 20 years from now india will need a 5thgen fighter of its own ... thats why amca is important

    Not about hurting Russia, but about hurting India.
    1.) Buying Rafale and Eurofighter at the same time would be a terrible idea.
    2.) Rafale's ability to counter new Chinese fighters later this decade is dubious. Not enough information to say, but I find it hard to believe it will enjoy any sort of advantage over the new birds.
    3.) Check how much money India is putting into PAK-FA and into buying Rafales- if anything the latter looks like a massive rip-off.
    4.) Rafale is an excellent bird, but it is generationaly far behind PAK-FA. India will only start receiving domestic examples late in the decade-that is uncomfortable close to when PAK-FA is finishing development. India already has a superb 4th gen bird in the Su-30MKI, and with the Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 upgrades, I think there is enough to cover needs untill PAK-FA comes along.
    None of this would be a problem if Tejas actually had any sort of success Sad - India would not need to buy an expensive, 4th gen stopgap - let alone one that is twin engine and as expensive as Rafale

    yes rafale is expensive but india is willing to pay for it .. also do not forget there is a2nd order for 80 more which is still undecided ..
    thats why i mentioned eurofighter ...
    and i seriously think that these planes can counter any cheap chinese 5th gen fighters ...
    the reason i am saying this ..when i was young i copied in maths exam and still failed ..cuz i copied from a dumb guy geek
    thats what china has done copying from usa thumbsup
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    Sujoy

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:38 am

    ricky123 wrote:also can u comment on the bold part of the article. if there is any truth in that . i think there is alot of curruption


    Ricky123 , for want of time I will keep my post short. The link/ article that you are referring to is basically an individual's blog . Infact a pretty self serving blog .

    Do NOT base your judgements based on such blogs . Read everything but question everything . A lot of these journalists and Bloggers are in the payroll of foreign intelligence agencies. And also , belittling the achievements of your competitors is a common practice in the defense business.

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  ricky123 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:37 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    ricky123 wrote:also can u comment on the bold part of the article. if there is any truth in that . i think there is alot of curruption


    Ricky123 , for want of time I will keep my post short. The link/ article that you are referring to is basically an individual's blog . Infact a pretty self serving blog .

    Do NOT base your judgements based on such blogs . Read everything but question everything . A lot of these journalists and Bloggers are in the payroll of foreign intelligence agencies. And also , belittling the achievements of your competitors is a common practice in the defense business.

    thats the reason i am asking how much truth is in there ..
    do we have to import tyers for su30mki from russia . and what about the tot of t90 ..

    i want to know the truth cuz i understand ther r people who just do propoganda for other countries ...but what i donot understand is the lack of clarity from india gov on these issues ....
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:32 am

    Russia and china are finalizing deal for sale of 48 aircraft’s of Sukhoi su 35, but many defence experts around the world are puzzled with Russian stupidity or just lack of business sense. China has a large fleet of Sukhoi su 30MKK and have reversed engineered older Sukhoi su 27K and have named them J-11.China had ordered 200 Sukhoi Su 27 but cancelled the order when 100 aircraft’s were delivered and started manufacturing reversed engineered Sukhoi 27 with their own air frame modifications and also cracked Russian software on Sukhoi 27 to enable it to fire their own locally developed weapons systems.

    Yet the money they earned from such sales helped them through a very difficult time financially.

    Russia on the other hand made right noises, and Rosoboron export`s general manager Anatoli Isaykin in MAKS 2009 aero show said Russia will investigate the J-11B Chinese copy of Su-27 and Sukhoi was part of the process, no action and only talk, fuelled speculation of a secret deal between Russian and china on this matter, china was also able to make a reversed engineered Sukhoi 33 for its aircraft carrier without much noise from Russia.

    Which suggests they came to some sort of agreement on both matters does it not?

    No matter what level of technology was reversed by china, Russia only did lip service and continued supply of AL-31 engines to J-10 Program of China and never objected to resale of Russian built Klimov RD-93 engines to Pakistan for their JF-17 aircraft’s.

    Anyone can build and airframe, it is pretty clear that China is not ready to make their own Al-31s or RD-33s (which is what an RD-93 is). If China wants to buy these two engine types... why not make money and sell them to them? If Russia cuts off China it will still make planes and fit them with inferior Chinese engines and Russia will make no money at all. At least this way Klimov and Saturn will be getting work and money...

    Purchase of limited (48 Nos) by china is leading to speculation that its token order for reversed engineered aircraft’s to be followed,

    And what form will these Su-35s take? What sort of internal systems and equipment will be included? Do you think they might have Su-30MKK2+1 level stuff or will they have stuff ported from the Russian T-50? I am guessing that the stuff in the Chinese Su-35s will not be the same as the Russian Su-35s let alone the PAK FA.

    J-10 has been dubbed in Chinese media has better aircraft then Sukhoi 30MKK and Sukhoi 27K, recent test flights of china’s two stealth fighters indicate that china might be shopping for new avionics and other systems (Ew, engines) for this aircraft’s and what better then purchase of latest 4+++ gen fighter aircraft in form of Sukhoi su 35.

    Well why not? But then if they can't reverse engineer their engines how are they going to reverse engineer more complicated systems? Plus I rather doubt a Chinese Su-35 would be 4+++ generation even if that made any sense at all.

    When it comes to India, Russia surely has a different attitude towards its intellectual property rights; India has been Purchasing Russian weapons for more than 5 decades now but not once has reversed engineered any of weapons but when it comes to TOT of its legally bidding transfers, Russia has always made India dance to its tune, prime examples are of refusal to give India TOT on T-90 Gun barrel where India is forced to use older Gun barrel of T-72 tanks , Even tires for IAF’s Sukhoi Su 30MKI fleet comes from Russia , since they refuse India to source it from Indian companies .

    First of all lets get things straight... evidence that these chinese aircraft are copies needs some evidence, and you can't prevent the Chinese from making planes with the same airframe as your aircraft.
    Second if India wanted to buy the latest Russian tank gun for their T-90s I am pretty sure some arrangement could be made. India clearly was not prepared to pay the price for the new gun... and keep in mind such things are incredibly expensive because you need to replace lots of gun barrels, and replace existing stocks of spare gun barrels and of course eliminate the existing stocks of ammo and buy all new more expensive ammo to get an improved anti armour capability that might not even exist.

    Russian companies have a relationship, so for instance Mig often buys Klimov engines and NIIP radar sets etc etc. They will also have a maker of their tires. When Mig wins a contract should they risk that contract hiring a local company they have no experience with? What would happen if a tire bursts on landing and the aircraft is lost. Nothing against outside companies, but the relationship is two way... Mig will know their tires.

    India on the other hand funded many of the technology which are been used by their forces , prime examples are Mig-29K which was first ordered by Indian Navy and after production line was setup from Indian funds , Russian navy went ahead ordered Mig-29K for its own use, abandoning any further development of Sukhoi su33 , it current naval aircraft’s . Russian air force also has ordered Sukhoi su 30SM which is a Variant based on Sukhoi su 30MKI which India had funded.

    Actually a sale of the S-300V system to the US in the 1990s actually funded the development of the S-300VM, so should Antei Almaz be more friendly to the US?
    The order by India of the Mig-29K included setup costs, and the Russian Navy took advantage of that order to make orders of its own... that is just business.
    The Su-30SM has no Israeli or French components and is pretty much a Russianised Su-30MKI, but then the Su-30MKI was just an Su-30 mixed with the Su-35 (original) and Su-37 with its TVC engines and foreign bits added.

    India even in Joint ventures like BrahMos had to complete with Russian systems hurting its export potential, India had to enter into Joint venture with Russia on key project like MTA and Pak-Fa on Russian terms, with limited or no contribution from Indian side, India needs to be careful when dealing with Russia now, Indian funded projects might find their way into its enemies hand.

    Unless India is prepared to buy all Russian stuff only then it can't demand Russia not sell to whom it likes.

    Russia will never sell Brahmos to anyone India disapproves of. That is not to say it wont sell Yakhont to someone India disapproves of, but it is highly unlikely that Russia would sell Yakhont to Pakistan for instance because it knows how that might effect India. Equally with the Su-30MKI any third country wanting to buy needs to get Indias approval first... which is why China was sold the inferior Su-30MKK. Of course some countries might buy the Su-30MKK because it has no Israeli parts.

    At the end of the day India has a say in the third party export of Russian things it funds, but clearly India is interested in buying non Russian stuff and so Russia needs to sell to different countries too.

    there r lot of concerns here .first russia sells rd93 engines which are not only used by chinese but also pakistan ..

    RD-93s are old model RD-33s in the 8 ton thrust class, the new Mig-29Ks have 9 ton thrust third generation RD-33s.

    For Russia the RD-93 and the aircraft that use them are not in competition with any Russian product so selling them does not hurt Russia.

    now su-35 which will close the gap which india had over china with su30mki....

    By the time they enter service in China India and Russia will be introducing FFGAs and T-50s respectively.

    argument can be made that by the time this is delivered india and russia will have pakfa and fgfa .. but su30 is the leading fighter for india ..

    And the Su-35 is the leading fighter for Russia... you think Chinese Su-35s are going to be the same?

    BTW better the devil you know.

    i personally feel after reading this india should pull out of the pakfa project before it is too late.. cuz india doesnt really need 5th gen fighter right now ..we should concentrate on amca and make it in india only .

    China are trying to buy Su-35s and have a few stealth aircraft at prototype level and you think India should stick its head in the sand over a new stealth fighter of their own?

    By 2020 when China has fully operational Su-35s and Russia has PAK FAs and India has Su-30MKIs do you think India will be better off or worse off?

    india pulling out of pakfa wont hurt russian project ..since russia is committed to that ...india should instead buy eurofighter and rafale in more numbers .....
    any chinese 5thgen fighter can be countered with rafale

    That is a big assumption. PAK FA will continue whether India is part of it or not, but I sincerely think Russia and India working together on this will create a much better aircraft than Russia alone, and I don't just mean Indian money and Russian know how.

    Without an enormous investment in a lot of areas however I don't think India is ready to make a fully 5th gen fighter on its own either (but then I don't think China or Europe are either).

    With PAK-FA India guarantees early delivery - production set up within the country, as well the ability to plug in whatever indigenous components it wants, before the design is finished.

    And that is a far better deal than any of the F-35 partners are getting...

    None of this would be a problem if Tejas actually had any sort of success Sad - India would not need to buy an expensive, 4th gen stopgap - let alone one that is twin engine and as expensive as Rafale

    I am disappointed with it too... it had so much promise and potential... a real missed opportunity.

    are u saying what is written in the article is not true ???

    All three joint ventures were on budget and on time and India got pretty much out of them exactly what they wanted.

    None of those three items are for sale to Pakistan or China.

    china will copy russian stuff and sell it to other countries which buy weapons from russia how is it good for bussiness ???

    Russia is going for high tech... countries after bargain basement stuff really wont have a Russian option soon, so China is not really competing with Russia directly. The RD-93 powered Chinese plane is an upgraded Mig-21... it is not really much competition for a Mig-29SMT or Mig-35 let alone a Flanker.

    If China tried to export a Flanker ripoff in a market where Sukhoi was selling you can bet your bottom dollar that if the Chinese aircraft is selected then legal proceedings would commence.
    Of course in modern fighters and weapons cheaper is not always better...

    india cannot compell any country for that matter .but isnt the chinese a threat to russia as well ???

    In terms of systems India has paid for like the Brahmos and Su-30MKI then India can say yes or no to exports, but if India wants to continue to buy US and French and other systems... which she has every right to do of course, then she can't get snitchy if Russia decides to keep Mig afloat by selling Pakistan Mig-35s for instance. I very much doubt they would of course but can you understand what I am saying... Russia isn't one entity and just because India buys Flankers and upgrades some Migs doesn't mean KBP can't make a little money selling guided artillery shells to someone India doesn't like very much.

    It is not to hurt India... Russia will likely refuse deals that clearly will hurt India even if they can make some money, but at the end of the day they do want to make money so deals where there is no obvious danger to Russia or her allies (India included) might go through.

    . but for future like 20 years from now india will need a 5thgen fighter of its own ... thats why amca is important

    I think India would end up with an inferior fighter if it wants to go it alone. Not only that it will also be expensive too.

    yes rafale is expensive but india is willing to pay for it .. also do not forget there is a2nd order for 80 more which is still undecided ..
    thats why i mentioned eurofighter .

    I doubt Typhoon would be any cheaper and will likely not add any new capabilities over the Rafale, but will add new engines and weapons to complicate logistics.

    and i seriously think that these planes can counter any cheap chinese 5th gen fighters ...
    the reason i am saying this ..when i was young i copied in maths exam and still failed ..cuz i copied from a dumb guy geek
    thats what china has done copying from usa

    Don't make the mistake of underestimating Americans... they didn't get where they are today by accident. Just because you don't understand their decisions doesn't make them wrong or stupid... you need to look at why decisions were taken in the first place.

    And also , belittling the achievements of your competitors is a common practice in the defense business.

    X2.

    I wouldn't write off the US or the Chinese engineers and you can bet the Russian engineers have a lot of respect for both.

    Just because Chinese aircraft look different or the same as western aircraft perhaps is because they will operate in the same flight envelope so their design looks similar.

    The Soviet Buran space shuttle looks very much like the US Space Shuttle... the Soviets knew that NASA spent 2 billion dollars intensively testing shapes and decided on the shape we know as the best with the available technology... the Soviets realised they had tested an enormous range of shapes and so adopted the US shape.

    You could say they copied, but that is just a superficial analysis. They are fundamentally different... the US space shuttle is like a C-130 transport... a big heavy plane with a 10 ton payload. To get into space it has an enormous fuel tank strapped to its belly that makes it so heavy it needs two enormous solid rocket boosters to get it off the launch platform. Once it is in space it has these enormous rocket engines that are dead weight for the rest of the journey. Recovering the main fuel tank and repairing it and reusing it is enormously expensive. The solid rockets are also very very expensive and toxic and once they are started they cannot be turned off.
    In comparison the Soviet shuttle is a big glider that sits on a big powerful rocket. The Soviet Buran does not have 10 tons of rocket engine dead weight for most of the flight which means much more payload.
    Most importantly if you are building a space station you can launch the base rocket with no Buran but a 120 ton load in an aerodynamic fairing which would allow the Russian Buran in theory to build the current ISS in 4-5 launches with entire modules at a time.

    It just shows the design advantage of coming second... not to take anything away from the US space shuttle, which is a marvellous vehicle with a very impressive record for safety... considering the number of launches having only two fatal incidents is impressive no matter what the naysayers say.

    lack of clarity from india gov on these issues ....

    Perhaps because they are not actually issues?


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    Sujoy

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:13 pm

    ricky123 wrote:thats the reason i am asking how much truth is in there ..
    do we have to import tyers for su30mki from russia . and what about the tot of t90 ..

    Certainly NOT . T90s are now being upgraded . All the technology related to the T 90 modernization that India had sought has been transferred to India. Tomorrow, if India has to export the Arjun to any other country India won't transfer the entire technology either .

    You have to realize that most of the ToT conditions that Indian RFPs lay out relate to after sale service and availability of spare parts . Also, the domestic industry in India is not big enough to successfully implement major defense deals.

    The US recently sold C130J to India and now a host of reports are emerging that fake Chinese parts were used in these aircrafts .

    http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/has-us-sold-india-defence-equipment-with-dud-chinese-parts-252834

    ricky123 wrote:what i donot understand is the lack of clarity from india gov on these issues ....

    Say the Indian Govt.provides clarity do you think the Indian journalist will be able to understand even half of it ? It's only a specific committee within the Govt. that comprises members from the armed forces and DRDO who have access to the entire details. And it is NOT necessary on their part to divulge everything .

    Finally , if you want details , very simple , take a look at the RFPs that the armed forces issue to vendors . That will let you know exactly what they require .

    On a side note . From the tonality of your language I get the feeling that you are quite young and therefore immature and innocent Very Happy . And if that's the case it is perfectly OK . But that aside you may have noticed that though people from around the world are members of this forum the forum remains quintessentially Russian - Substance over Style .

    I am NOT a member of any other forum though I may visit them if time permits . From my experience what I can tell you is that the ONLY information you will get here is totally objective in nature . Hope this helps.

    ricky123

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  ricky123 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:36 pm

    thanks sujoy and gary .now i have more clarity on these issues
    thats why love this forum I love you I love you

    Mindstorm

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:29 pm



    are u saying what is written in the article is not true ???


    Oh not , what i mean is much worse than the damage done by the provision of simply untrue informations.


    Those kind of "sources" very often not only offer purposely twarted informations, them have the habit to merge in this low level PR cocktail little amounts of true informations ,or incorrect informations so widely spread in public media to being accepted as true in public immaginary, only to add some credibility to theirs guided "thesis", attempting moreover to draw from them inferences absolutely out of proportion or purposely deceptive.

    As rightly highlighted by Sujoy those "sources" hide at theirs shoulders vested interests of big multi-nationals Companies ,the mercenary crew operating on theirs behalf is often very active (or even CONTROL effectively) internet popular forum on those subjects.

    If you want i can provide some examples of similar persons , publications or forums ,so to allow you to realize what i mean Wink





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    chenzhao

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  chenzhao on Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:04 am

    China and India still lack of mutual trust. Indian should learn that if China buy some weapon from Russia, that is not a threaten status to India. In Tibet China only deploys a squadron of light fighters (typically only 8 J-10s). In fact , Indian army and airforce is superious to China's along almost all the Indian-Tibetan border. For natural geography reason that mainitance high-tech weapon system in Tibetan plateau will be very hard.
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    GarryB

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:04 am

    India vs China and/or Russia vs China would have the west over the moon in happiness.

    The reality is that Russia and China and India have a few minor disagreements over a few things, but it is certainly nothing to go to war over.

    All three countries are mature and civilised and while each has problems, they will all benefit more from cooperation and friendship than they will from hostility.

    All three countries have rich and exciting cultures and histories going back more than a few hundred years.

    The irony is that while China is communist, the west actually treats Russia like it is still communist, and has only recently shown interest in India.

    I think as time goes by India and China and Russia and the other BRICSA countries and quite a few more besides will have a potential to grow... I don't think the real future is the American way of consumerism, a cleaner and greener, more natural future would be better for the future of the human race... renewable resources, cleaner technologies for energy etc.

    If the US is going to sit on green energy technology and just focus on oil and gas then it is up to BRICSA to lead the way with technology that might undermine the wealth of the powerful oil companies... notice they have all rebranded themselves as "energy companies"? A bit like western departments of war and ministries of war suddenly became ministries of defence and departments of defence... nothing changed except for the stationary and signs of course and I suspect the same of the oil companies.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    dino00

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  dino00 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:16 pm

    China to buy Russia’s state-of-the-art Su-35 jetfighters

    China will buy Russia’s state-of-the-art jetfighters Su-35.
    An intergovernmental agreement to that end was signed in January, with the parties due to start consultations on drawing up a contract to that end at an early date, Deputy Director of the Federal Service for Military Technological Cooperation Vyacheslav Dzirkaln has told reporters.

    He failed to specify the number of aircraft to be supplied to China, but said that Beijing will get the aircraft that will be ready for operational service.

    Su-35 has been designed by the Sukhoi Design Office. It is an updated air-superiority multipurpose jetfighter that makes use of the fifth-generation technologies.

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2013_02_20/China-to-buy-Russia-s-state-of-the-art-Su-35-jetfighters/
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    Viktor

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  Viktor on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:30 pm

    And again Very Happy same story pops out.

    Its bound to happen just like S-400, only now price tag is surely much higher than in 90ies when you could buy 200 planes for few bin.

    By this time next year we will be discussing the amount China intends to order Very Happy as order itself will be out of question.

    20/02/13 CHINA PLANS TO BUY NEW RUSSIAN SU-35
    February 20 2013.

    INTERFAX.RU - An intergovernmental Russian-Chinese agreement to supply China multifunctional fighter Su-35.

    "As part of the agreements that we have with the Chinese side, we did in January signed an intergovernmental agreement to supply China Su-35" - said, "Interfax-AVN," Deputy Director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) Vyacheslav Dzirkaln in passing in the UAE arms exhibition IDEX-2013, where he heads the Russian delegation.

    According to him, will soon begin consultations to prepare a contract to supply China Su-35 fighters. "This is normal, there is a planned work" - said Dzirkaln.

    He did not specify when it can be contracted and how the Su-35 will be delivered to China. But noted that it will not license, and procurement contracts. That is, China will get ready to operate aircraft. http://www.interfax.ru/
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    flamming_python

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:07 am

    I think its a good decision. By the time China will learn everything and have its own copies (quite a while for some of the most advanced tech there), Russia will already have newer stuff out.

    It goes without saying that China will copy and learn from that what it's sold.
    But the same goes for Russia and Western governments.
    The UK bought 1 T-80U in the 90s and wasted no time learning everything they could over it.

    Russia bought a couple of Italian Centauros for evaluation, some Israeli UAVs too.
    I'm sure that both these things were officially brokered as technology transfers on the state level, or otherwise there was the implicit understanding that this was would take place. In return, I'm sure Russia gave Italy and Israel concessions in other areas.

    And you can bet that what Russia actually got undergoing production on its own territory or being bought en-masse (the Italian Lynxs, French thermal optics); it's going to learn from and take the best parts of and incorporated it into its own vehicles. And then those same vehicles will be competing on the export markets with the Italian vehicles.
    But by that time the Italians might have something even more advanced. It's up to them to keep advancing, and you should not mistake their oppurtunistic sale of Lynx's to Russia as foolishness. They know perfectly well that the Russians will keep advancing; with or without their technology - so they might as well cash in on it.
    If the Russians overtake them by reverse-engineering their own technology - then the Italians only have themselves to blame for failing to maintain their own lead; and in any case it would have happened regardless of what they did or didn't sell.

    Anyway back to China -
    The main thing is firstly that there is an understanding this time on Russia's part that what it's sold is going to looked at, taken apart and assimilated. Every country with enough technological & industrial understanding does this.
    So don't sell them the stuff you don't want them to have - and everyone will be happy.

    But I think that Russia understood that from the very beggining. The bigger issue is that the last time round - China canceled their orders of Sukhoi fighters after just a few jets were delivered.
    Russia can handle China looking at its tech - but not for free.
    That was a huge breach of trust by China; and if Russia is willing to sell China Su-35s now - that implies that China has promised that something like this would never happen again.

    At the end of the day China is no worse than anyone else. The only thing that it really does that is bad - is breach contracts and understandings.

    ricky123

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  ricky123 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:10 am

    TR1 wrote:China hasn't sold anything to anyone that Kamov might have, so I don't see any loss here, or in the near future.

    In the long term, they would have developed their own designs anyways.
    A lot of Russian companies made money off China during 90s, that allowed them to live.
    good way to backstab india though angry angry
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    TR1

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    Re: RUSSIA - CHINA Military Contracts:

    Post  TR1 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:22 am

    How is it backstabbing India?

    China bought more military thing from Russia in the 90s, and is a far bigger trade partner.

    Why would Russia sacrifice all that just for India? That would be counter to basic national interests.

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