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    India's Foreign policy

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    Post  Isos on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Gripen is probably not as wonderful as the people trying to sell it make it out to be... I don't think it would be a dog, but at the end of the day in a competition between the Gripen and the F-16 then the F-16 would win simply because the competition wont be fair.

    The Gripen uses a lot of american parts including the engine and its main weapons, so I suspect the word will be... Buy the F-16 or get a Gripen without AMRAAM or an engine...

    BTW that still of that video is interesting... Russia is obviously over run by NATO when this map is depicting... western Russia is now Europe and the Asian portion is some new country called Siberia... amusing.

    Of course it also ignores the sea option of the northern route for transport to Europe too for which a few rail lines will likely be added to.

    Only stupid people can choose gripen. It is actually build with parts coming from all over western countries. Get mad one of them and they can block supplying parts for the fleet and ground it.

    Gripen it is a piece of crap. It came in the last position in Swiss competition behind rafale and typhoon. That was the official result of testing by the air force and not some comparison on forums. Moreover they discovered that the "cheap" maintenance and flying cost of gripen wasn't so much cheap but rather expensive.

    It still doesn't have the AESA radar, it has big rcs for its size with weapons, and I don't know why but people say it has the best ecm in the world while sweedish aren't known to be the best military technology makers neither do they invest that much money in that field neither do they have big companies to make state of art technology. Everything they did wasn't revolutionary or better than anything west or USSR had.

    On the other hand Pakistan and probably china know everything about the f-16. US won't sell them AMRAAMs or maybe a very downgraded version fearing that china may analyze it.

    So both choice are crap. Even modernized mig-21 is better for them.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:30 am

    ..Swedish aren't known to be the best military technology makers neither do they invest that much money in that field neither do they have big companies to make state of art technology. Everything they did wasn't revolutionary or better than anything west or USSR had.
    Not true! They were the 1st to field a double delta wing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_35_Draken

    The Viggen holds the distinction of being the first canard design to be produced in quantity, maintaining their "armed neutrality" to stay out of WWIII.
    The Viggen was also the most advanced fighter jet in Europe until the introduction of the Panavia Tornado into operational service in 1981.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_Viggen

    In many ways, Thailand is the Sweden of SE Asia, & Brazil is India of S. America, so their choice is understandable:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen#Thailand
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen#Brazil


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:13 pm


    Global: MilitaryInfo
    @Global_Mil_Info
    ·
    14m
    #FLASH: The #Indian Prime Minister has given security forces free rein to respond to the militant attack. India is directly blaming #Pakistan of orchestrating the bombing -
    @NYT
    ; Indian Media
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed May 15, 2019 8:43 pm

    India’s shift toward multi-alignment
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    Post  George1 on Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:15 pm

    India to Launch Coastal Surveillance Radar Stations in Maldives

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201906061075691597-india-inaugurates-coastal-radar-maldives/
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:26 pm

    Modi II: Reclaiming the neighborhood
    https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/06/opinion/modi-ii-reclaiming-the-neighborhood/
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    Post  George1 on Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:28 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Modi II: Reclaiming the neighborhood
    https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/06/opinion/modi-ii-reclaiming-the-neighborhood/

    China has expanded military relations with sri lanka however in recent years (as they do with Bangladesh als)

    Transfer by China of the frigate of the project 053H3 to the Navy of Sri Lanka

    June 5, 2019 in Shanghai, the solemn ceremony of transferring the former frigate of the project 053H2G "Tongling" to the PLA Navy (crew number 542) to the naval forces of Sri Lanka was held. The frigate built in 1994 was transferred to the Lankan side free of charge and converted into a coast guard patrol ship [in fact, the ship will join the Sri Lankan Navy with a ship number P 625].
    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3668497.html
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    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:02 am

    India Set to Monitor Chinese Ships’ Movements from Mozambique
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:21 pm

    'Balance of power' a strategic trap for India
    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1164295.shtml

    I agree. India will lose more by trying to contain China & becoming a de-facto US & Japanese proxy/counterweight in S. Asia.
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    Post  Pinto on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:23 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:'Balance of power' a strategic trap for India
    http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1164295.shtml

    I agree. India will lose more by trying to contain China & becoming a de-facto US & Japanese proxy/counterweight in S. Asia.

    Global times is chinese mouthpiece hence has no credibility in india and what is india gaining when china openly supporting pak and undermining indian interests openly ?

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:39 pm

    "If u can't beat them, join them"! India & Pakistan were in conflict for decades & it's time for a compromise. Russia, Turkey & Iran with whom India has good relations & trade r also improving ties among themselves & with Pakistan. Repeating the same mantras won't get India different results even a 100 years from now.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:16 am

    Global times is chinese mouthpiece hence has no credibility in india and what is india gaining when china openly supporting pak and undermining indian interests openly ?

    If China is the enemy because it supports Pakistan, I guess that makes the US the enemy too?

    Of course India looking to the US more will make Russia look to other clients too including Pakistan and then Russia becomes the bad guy as well...
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    Post  Pinto on Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Global times is chinese mouthpiece hence has no credibility in india and what is india gaining when china openly supporting pak and undermining indian interests openly ?

    If China is the enemy because it supports Pakistan, I guess that makes the US the enemy too?

    Of course India looking to the US more will make Russia look to other clients too including Pakistan and then Russia becomes the bad guy as well...

    Relations with russia and china are different take

    Since past 1 year read here many abusive post about india and no one bothered to edit them so since then posting far less here (always found you ethical here i am replying to you), but reality is in last 1 year or so only defence deals worth close to 18 b$ are signed with russia and there have been economic investment from both sides with Rosneft buying indian co essar oil for 13 b $ thus Russia for the first time entering oil refining and retail business in india

    For India relations with Russia will always be on a different platter because here indian public in general has been pro russia and always see US-India relationship with suspicion even despite many non critical defence deals

    India has not only mend relationship with US but with turkey, Saudi and UAE too

    China too is a major economic partner but can never be a friend and always undermined indian interests and supported rogue behaviour of pakistan towards india openly and blatantly the change in indian govt since 2014 has brought in many new avenues n foreign policy of india but relationship with Russia has not been affected rather now being taken from defence fields to economic field too which must come for our defence limbo to expand to other newer economic avenues to increase trade



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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:57 am

    Since past 1 year read here many abusive post about india and no one bothered to edit them so since then posting far less here (always found you ethical here i am replying to you)

    Sadly it is easier to be hostile than to take the time to understand the actions of others, and so a few moves can be misread, or read correctly but misinterpreted.

    US propaganda is strong, and they are very clever to manipulate situations to their advantage... remember only a few years ago there was a lot of talk of the US taking over Russias position of being to dominant trade partner to India... not for any moral or ethical reasons, but simple money... 1.2 billion potential drinkers of sugary poisons and people to both make and also wear blue jeans... I knew most of my life that India was a jewel... the UK called it such but mishandled things and pushed India away so when looking for allies they could trust they of course looked to enemies of the UK or alternatives to the UK which of course were France and the Soviet Union and then Russia. I find it ironic that former British colony America now wants to be friends to former British colony India.

    When America leaves Afghanistan they wont actually leave... there is money to be made... the place being wild and unruly means there are a lot of minerals that have been stripped from other more peaceful areas that they want and the huge tectonic processes in the region probably make them more accessible (ie don't have to dig so much), so they are going to need good relations with Pakistan no matter what, but 1.2 billion customers is just too exciting an opportunity for them.

    And it is a great opportunity... most of Chinas development and wealth come from western investment from the time when the Soviets and Russians were seen as the enemy, but then the 1990s hit and it was just a cheap place to get stuff made because there were no labour laws and you just bribe a few officials and you can ignore any concept of morality regarding toxic waste or unsafe working conditions... the west has been doing this for a century... for a while it was Japan making cheap shit, but most countries in Asia had a go and had factories built and developed their economies... this current trade war will be interesting if the US turns and tries to make India and Russia counters to a growing China... they don't see Russia as an economic threat, and they certainly don't see India that way either... and some might argue that India should go along with the US until they get to where China is now and then they can turn back and become independent and economically powerful.

    I am no economist, but being number one economy in this current toxic environment would just make you target number one for the US... binding your economy growth to the US or the west also creates the risk that if it fails then you could get hurt too... I rather suspect Indias future should be directed to BRICS where they wont grow as fast but it will be much safer growth without bubbles and a fragility to collapse in other places.

    China made money and developed with western investment but make no mistake China made the bare minimum profit, with most of it going to big powerful western companies that dominate global business... fortunately for China they also have some businesses that have become bigger and competitive globally, and I really don't think being part of a trade war trying to keep China in check is the best solution for India... I can see why the US wants it... it would certainly benefit from BRICS failing as an alternative to the current system where they basically do as they please but everyone else has to follow the rules.

    Half the problem is culture, in the west there is the recommended retail price... that is the label on the product in the shop and if it is not on special then that is the price you pay. Obviously in much of the rest of the world your profit margin is not so rigid and you can basically sell it for as much as you are prepared to sell it for or you keep it. Western people don't understand that and think Indian customers who try to negotiate a lower price are just being cheap, but any retailer knows there is a large mark up on most of what they sell and that there is often flexibility in what you sell things for. Ironically it is traditional in the west to give discounts for large purchases, so rich people who buy in bulk tend to save more than poorer people who need to save up and buy one item at a time... how anti poor is that?

    If you buy a new camera for instance they will call it upselling, but you can often get other things with the camera cheaply... I wanted a spotting scope to use when target shooting but most were over $1,000, but I was in a camera shop one time and they had a tiny video camera that was about the size of the tapes for my first video camera from the 1980s... it had a x78 optical zoom so you could zoom right in without losing quality and getting all pixellated. It wasn't HD but was good enough to use for shooting... I could set it up on the table next to me with the screen flipped out and glance at my shots... I could even record them if I wanted to.

    The Camera was $300, and for an extra $50 he gave me a 16GB memory card (it used SD memory cards up to 2GB), and a tripod which was critical for things like zooming in to 250X and taking photos of the moon where the entire field of view in the picture was moon surface...

    China too is a major economic partner but can never be a friend and always undermined indian interests and supported rogue behaviour of pakistan towards india openly and blatantly the change in indian govt since 2014 has brought in many new avenues n foreign policy of india but relationship with Russia has not been affected rather now being taken from defence fields to economic field too which must come for our defence limbo to expand to other newer economic avenues to increase trade

    Sometimes you have to let things go. China was used by the US to counter the Soviet Union... Instead of cooperating together against their obvious enemy they let a few differences and disagreements keep them apart. I am not suggesting marriage or best friends, but I think if you just start out doing something the US never does... treat China and Russia and other countries with respect and accept there are areas where there wont be agreement then you can openly trade and cooperate in areas where your interests overlap. Russia talks to India about sales to Pakistan before it makes them... it is not like they get veto rights or anything but as a courtesy they talk to India about purchases. Russia offers China Su-35s and S-400s and offers India Su-57s and probably more complete S-400 systems... the material offered to India is often a generation better than that offered to anyone else, but having said that India is free to buy from whom they like and Russia is ultimately free to sell to who it likes too... but they are not offering leases on Gepards to China or Pakistan you will notice.

    It is easy to say the relationship is over because they did this or that, but I suspect there are a lot of things Russia makes that India would benefit from... assault rifles was one which they have dealt with but I suspect some of these future soldier sets might be useful for India too... I would love a Ratnik 2 set myself, though they probably don't cater to my shape... over 120kgs... of course I am in shape... round is a shape...

    I was interested to see comments about Indian investment in the Russian far east... and energy... that is a great step forward and will benefit both countries... BRICS countries should be investing in each other and keeping the profits themselves instead of sending all those profits to the west... in fact perhaps they should expand an add Iran... BRI2CS...
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    India's Foreign policy - Page 5 Empty India challenging China’s influence in the South China Sea with outreach to Russia and other regional powers, analysts say

    Post  Pinto on Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:19 pm

    India and Russia have agreed to launch a maritime route that would partly go through the hotly contested waters

    Traditional security allies also could ramp up their military and technological collaboration

    India is challenging Chinese influence in the South China Sea with its outreach to regional powers, including Russia, with which it has agreed to launch a maritime route that would partly go through the hotly contested waters, analysts said.

    Under the memorandum of understanding signed by India and Russia – two traditional security allies – during a regional economic forum this week, a new Indo-Pacific sea route will extend from the port city of Vladivostok, in Russia’s Far East, to Chennai, on the Bay of Bengal in eastern India.

    The shipping route will partly traverse the South China Sea, the scene of numerous territorial disputes involving China and neighbouring countries over the years.

    In addition to cooperating on the planned maritime route, India and Russia could ramp up their alliance in the military and technological spheres, according to a joint statement released at the economic forum in Vladivostok.

    India and Russia have agreed to launch a maritime route that would partly go through the hotly contested waters of the South China Sea. Photo: EPAIndia and Russia have agreed to launch a maritime route that would partly go through the hotly contested waters of the South China Sea. Photo: EPA
    India and Russia have agreed to launch a maritime route that would partly go through the hotly contested waters of the South China Sea. Photo: EPA
    India is challenging Chinese influence in the South China Sea with its outreach to regional powers, including Russia, with which it has agreed to launch a maritime route that would partly go through the hotly contested waters, analysts said.
    Under the memorandum of understanding signed by India and Russia – two traditional security allies – during a regional economic forum this week, a new Indo-Pacific sea route will extend from the port city of Vladivostok, in Russia’s Far East, to Chennai, on the Bay of Bengal in eastern India.
    The shipping route will partly traverse the South China Sea, the scene of numerous territorial disputes involving China and neighbouring countries over the years.
    In addition to cooperating on the planned maritime route, India and Russia could ramp up their alliance in the military and technological spheres, according to a joint statement released at the economic forum in Vladivostok.

    The partnership could “include establishing joint development and production of military equipment, spare parts and components as well as improving the system of after sales services”, the statement said.

    The announcement of greater India-Russia military cooperation comes a year after New Delhi agreed to purchase Russian-made S-400 surface-to-air missile systems.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3026120/india-challenging-chinas-influence-south-china-sea-outreach
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:15 am

    Russian key to Asia: Moscow has found a balance between world powers: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2731091.html
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    Post  Pinto on Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:47 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Not any particular models, but I'm sure Russia, France, Germany, Japan or some other country could help them with fitting their engines, if the Indians couldn't build 1 themselves.  
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Aircraft_engine_manufacturers_of_Russia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Rafale#Engines
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon#Engines
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHI_Corporation_XF5

    Update: Implications for India of China’s presence in Indo-Pacific region
    Let's see for how long India will be able to resist the rise of China.
    At some point, she better realize that "if u can't beat them, join them" is going to be a lot better for her own good!

    India will never join china that is crustal clear in indian policies so far, India is the only country which vehemently opposed and has not joined china OBOR. Relationship with china is very complex trade growing but disputes remains and china continues its efforts to block indian interests and will never be trusted by any Indian govt

    However India will continue to grow its neglected area with Russia which is trade and which has immense potential and is rightly being exploited now with 2 ways investment in oil sector growing and now indian investments in far east russia will open newer avenues

    Defence with Russia has always been stable and will continue to remain so despite being warming up of ties with US. Present indian govt which was suspected in 2014 to be pro US had demonstrated that Russia was and will continue to remain critical strongest partner in Indian foreign policy

    above article is nice but is gross in over judging china

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:01 pm

    Well, which 1 will last longer? Let's compare: India lost Pakistan, parts of Kashmir & Bangladesh + losing influence in Nepal & Sri Lanka; China lost Taiwan but gained Tibet + consolidating its hold on Sinkiang. China is a nation with single official writing system, with loyal atheists & adherents of 4 main religions, while India is an artificial country with many official writing systems, & where communal violence is common.
    India has no common border with Russia & won't be able to sit on 2 chairs with both + USA, while the long Russia-PRC border is settled & they r getting in bed with each other.
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    Post  Pinto on Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:07 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Well, which 1 will last longer? Let's compare: India lost Pakistan, parts of Kashmir & Bangladesh + losing influence in Nepal & Sri Lanka; China lost Taiwan but gained Tibet + consolidating its hold on Sinkiang. China is a nation with single official writing system, with loyal atheists & adherents of 4 main religions, while India is an artificial country with many official writing systems, & where communal violence is common.
    India has no common border with Russia & won't be able to sit on 2 chairs with both + USA, while the long Russia-PRC border is settled & they r getting in bed with each other.

    Looks like you are more concerned about china-india, US-India then the ties between India and russia
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:09 pm

    India's economy will grow in the next decades the same as Chinese has the last decades. Chinese will stop growing and many investment being made there will be send in india because it's gonna be cheaper. It's already happening.

    Tibet hates china and wants independance.

    Muslims are being treated like animals there. ISIS are going out of Middle east and will eventually end up on their borders and will for sure be helped by US to destabilize China.

    China is living its nightmare in Hong Kong, the population told them to fuck off and they gave up. It will have huge impact on Chinese interior affairs and may lead to the destruction of the communist party.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:01 pm

    Isos wrote:India's economy will grow in the next decades the same as Chinese has the last decades. Chinese will stop growing and many investment being made there will be send in india because it's gonna be cheaper. It's already happening.
    they have huge domestic market- it will sustain itself, & there's Africa to invest Chinese capital in to build infrastructure, extract resources, & set up manufacturing of cheap goods.
    Tibet hates china and wants independence.
    so is the Inner Mongolia. With current trends & railroad to lhasa, etc., most Tibetans will be ethnic Han Chinese soon.
    Muslims are being treated like animals there.
    In the entire PRC, most of them r ethnic Han (Hui), have no reason to riot, & they live outside of Sinkiang- where the Uighurs & Kazacks r being diluted by Han, just like in Tibet. Recall what happened to the Manchus- there r now only few old native speakers left.
    China is living its nightmare in Hong Kong, the population told them to fuck off and they gave up.
    it's not over yet, & the PRC gov. has a lot of patience.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:33 pm

    they have huge domestic market- it will sustain itself, & there's Africa to invest Chinese capital in to build infrastructure, extract resources, & set up manufacturing of cheap goods.

    Not that huge. Most of its population are poor (very poor). The high classes want western stuff (apple, Samsung, german cars, french fashion brands ...).

    Africans miss frenchs when they see how chinese use them and pay them...

    so is the Inner Mongolia. With current trends & railroad to lhasa, etc., most Tibetans will be ethnic Han Chinese soon.

    They will be kicked out. Chinese prefer the coast anyway. The more they get richer the more people will want to have more and be independant and the more limited ressources will be. It's already happening that's why they try to regulate the popularion with their one child laws that failed. Their modele will collapse in the next 20 years if they don't change.

    Communist won't stay at power if the population get richer and richer.

    In the entire PRC, most of them r ethnic Han (Hui), have no reason to riot, & they live outside of Sinkiang- where the Uighurs & Kazacks r being diluted by Han, just like in Tibet. Recall what happened to the Manchus- there r now only few old native speakers left.

    That will only lead to a civil war. Which will be exploited by US and it will be easy to send weapons through india.

    it's not over yet, & the PRC gov. has a lot of patience.

    They saw they are not immune to facebook and twitter. They don't really know what do do now. HK people won. China lost big in that.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:00 pm

    Indian logic is so amusing...

    India: We'll never make peace with China because their allied with Pakistan, and have clashing interests. 

    Also India: We're making friends with the Atlantacist Anglo-Saxon Supremacy, aka the USA, the same country that's joined at the hip with the UK (which enslaved India, and created and financed the Indian/Pakistani split). The same Yanks who are allied with Pakistan and armed them with tens of billions of Dollars worth of weapons for decades. The Same Yanks who fostered the rivalry between India and China, divide and conquer so they could maintain American dominance. The same Yanks even threatened to go to war with India to protect Pakistan. The  same Yankie friends that threaten to sanction the country multiple times over the past 2 decades because they had clashing interests. The same Yanks who originally revoked the visa of your leader Modi, and lifted the revocation only after it was certain he was going to get elected. 


    ...You Indians seem to have forgotten that Russia and China were not always on good terms, and during the late 70's they were at the brink of thermonuclear war (Sino/Soviet Split). But like grown ups they have put their grievances aside for their greater good, and for mutually beneficial relations. When you consider the facts Indians have ridiculous contradicting values, and cherry-pick which times you want to maintain those values and other times when they want to discard them.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:26 pm

    Most of its population are poor (very poor).
    theyr lifting them out of poverty, & the middle class is growing.
    They will be kicked out.
    no they won't be. There r enough Han to resettle in those provinces with gov. help, as is happening now, to change demographics, also rural families can now have more than 1 child. Mixed marriages will become more common in the future. Those provinces r turned into police states, with more strict controls than in the rest of China.
    Tibet & Sinkiang r the strategic high ground overlooking India & C. Asia, guarding SW. & W. approaches to the rest of China. There r also big deposits of natural resources to be exploited.  
    The shortest distance from China to E./C./S. Europe lies via C. Asia, Pakistan, Iran & Turkey- thus the BRI network will be garrisoned by the PLA/Militia/private security & protected by the State Security apparatus in the PRC.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:00 am; edited 1 time in total
    Cyberspec
    Cyberspec

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    India's Foreign policy - Page 5 Empty Re: India's Foreign policy

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:23 am

    I think a lot of people in this forum underestimate China's power...

    but Isos takes the cake...they will conquer China with Facebook and Iphones Very Happy

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    India's Foreign policy - Page 5 Empty Re: India's Foreign policy

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