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    India's Foreign policy

    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:04 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    flamming_python wrote: Where does all this hate come from?

    Where is the hate ? I'm saying things the way they are. Might sound unsettling but that's the truth.

    When the Brits left India they created 3 parties - Congress, Muslim League, RSS (the current BJP's parent party). Muslim League created Pakistan and left. Brits ruled India indirectly via Congress for 70 odd years and now the Anglo-Saxons are ruling India using the BJP.

    The Brits are not ruling India. Nor even the Americans. It's an independent country. It's elites don't always make the right choices, but they have an agenda all of their own - not one that's subordinated to London. Hence why India for example, didn't join the sanctions regime against Russia, continues to buy weapons from it, participates in the BRICS, carries out military exercises with Russia and is an observer in the SCO.

    Would any of that even be possible if the Anglo-Saxons were still ruling India? Or even if it was significantly still influenced by Britain and kept the Queen as head of state? Can you imagine Canada, Australia, New Zealand doing any of the above?

    Russians would be fools to believe that India is a friendly country.

    Yet they are, the proof is in the pudding

    And do you mind not calling them a great power? They have spend more than a 1000 years as a colony, either of Islamic countries or the Brits. Even nothing power like Uzbekistan had conquered those Hindus. In contrast Russia has not been a colony of any country for even 10 years.

    No I don't mind calling them a great power. They have the world's 2nd largest population, the 7th largest country by land area, the 3rd largest economy in the world, are a nuclear power, possess their own space program, have the 3rd most powerful military on the Asian continent (after Russia and China).

    That they're a developing country with backwards practices in rural society is obvious. Still, China was a lot closer to their development level back in the 50s/60s, and now look at them. All it takes is the right leadership and system of administration, and India can progress to becoming an industrialized and then post-industrialized power within decades, and leave all the caste system, preventable diseases and so on behind.

    The obnoxious religion that country practices has kept it backward for ever. Even China despite lagging India initially, has leaped far ahead and is now a superpower. South Korea, Taiwan, Japan are other Asian states that are generations ahead of India.

    It's got nothing to do with religion. Idealisms always become subordinated to material reality sooner or later, because it was material reality that birthed them in the first place. That goes for any religion or ideology. As India develops, either the religion will change - there where it no longer fits modern realities, or the religion will be left behind and something else will take its place; as happened in Europe.

    What has kept India backward is its lack of unity and its composition as a bunch of warring principalities and city states. This made it easy for the British, Portugese and so on to play divide and rule.
    Historically, when India had been at least partially united under a powerful dynasty - for example the Mughals; it developed rapidly economically and gave the world a bunch of innovations and advancements.
    By the time the Europeans had arrived, the Mughals were long gone.

    Ironically, it's due to the Brits that India had managed to unite into a cohesive entity for the first time in modern history.

    Makes no sense for Russia to be friends with a failed state. If these Indians can afford Russian stuff go ahead and sell it, but there is no need to define them as friends. They are not.

    India is not a failed state, it's a developing country. As a state it has a working system of government and administration across all its territory, a rapidly growing economy, an army under a single command structure to defend its borders, a foreign policy decided upon by its elite that all smaller regional elites in the country follow. You can hardly say any of those things for an actual failed state.

    Already, Hindus are putting a whole lot of pressure on the Kremlin not to sell advanced hi tech weapons to Pakistan and China.

    I would do the same thing in their position. They are a massive customer and that gives them leverage. It's perfectly within their right to say to Russia - 'them or us', and walk away from deals if they perceive that Russia is arming their enemies. Just the same as it's Russia's right to sell weapons to whoever they want.

    Russia has to be careful around Indian sensitivities. At the end of the day this is the most valuable ally we have in Asia. China's great too but we've historically had our differences, and they can always go full retard in South Korea, Vietnam, Japan, etc... with which Russia also has valuable relations and a lot of mutual investments with.

    Billions of $$ worth of prospective weapon sales to Pakistan were scuttled by Hindus.  Will those corrupt Hindus compensate Russia for all the losses? They also won drilling rights in Siberia despite the fact that Chinese companies were the highest bidder. Guess how.

    India is Russia's largest defense industry customer so yes it is compensating Russia just fine.

    As for corruption, well if your own country is corrupt than foreign corporations will of course play by corrupt rules too, less they lose out to other foreign competition or local companies, that will also be playing by corrupt rules.

    It's Russia's problem to fix, not India's
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:38 pm

    At the end of the day this is the most valuable ally we have in Asia.
    not anymore, China is-the RF & PRC recently started conducting joint land & air exercises/patrols, besides those at sea, & not only in the FE, while with India it's mostly occasional naval exercises in the Indian Ocean.
    That's also why Russia tries to bring India & China closer together.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:43 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:That's also why Russia tries to bring India & China closer together.

    If they can achieve that, it's basically game over for the "opposition" in the Asia-Pacific
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:28 am

    If they can achieve that, it's basically game over for the "opposition" in the Asia-Pacific

    I would love to see them achieve it... India and China and Russia are all much better off individually and as a group if they can put aside their differences and work together.

    Would like to see India and Pakistan put aside their differences and learn to get on... though Pakistan has to stop funding and supporting terrorists of course... but then if the US and the west and Saudi Arabia and Israel continue to support terrorists why would Pakistan stop?
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto on Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:53 am

    https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/how-will-purchases-from-russia-affect-india-us-ties/article29606117.ece


    Will a new American law and sanctions come in the way of the S-400 Triumf missile purchase?

    The story so far: Exactly a year ago, on October 5, 2018, India and Russia signed a contract to buy the Russian Triumf missile system, concluding negotiations that began in 2015. During that time, however, a new U.S. law, called “Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act” or CAATSA was passed by the U.S. Congress, which transformed what should have been a straightforward bilateral deal into a complex trilateral balancing game for India.

    How significant is the Russian deal for New Delhi?

    A year after Prime Minister Narendra Modi and Russian President Vladimir Putin signed an agreement for the $5.4 billion S-400 Triumf missile system (picture), the deal continues to cast a cloud over India-U.S. ties. Earlier this week, even as External Affairs Minister S. Jaishankar was meeting his American counterpart Mike Pompeo in Washington, a U.S. official reminded India of the “risks” attached to the deal. The State Department spokesperson said on Tuesday, “We urge all of our allies and partners to forgo transactions with Russia that risk triggering sanctions under the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).” This was shortly after Mr. Jaishankar reiterated at a think-tank event India’s intention to acquire the Russian system. Mr. Jaishankar had said in Washington, “We would not like any state to tell us what to buy or not to buy from Russia any more than we would like any state to tell us to buy or not buy from America,” asserting both India’s traditional ties to Russia, as well as the significance of the S-400 deal in particular.

    Why is the S-400 deal important?

    The agreement to purchase the Triumf missile system boosted India-Russia defence ties at a point of inflection last year.

    Russia has traditionally been India’s biggest defence supplier, but was surpassed by the U.S. in the last few years, a fact that had added to a perceptible drift in bilateral ties. Mr. Putin and Mr. Modi addressed this drift with a special “reset” summit in Sochi last May, which was followed by Mr. Putin’s visit to Delhi on October 5, 2018, when the deal was announced. The Indian Air Force has also backed the superior air defence system in that it will fill the gap in India’s particular needs: countering its main adversaries and neighbours, China and Pakistan’s growing air power, while dealing with a depleting stock of fighter aircraft.



    Is India the only country facing CAATSA sanctions?

    By coincidence, CAATSA has now been invoked by the United States twice already, and both times for countries buying the Triumf system from Russia. In September 2018, the U.S. State Department and Treasury Department announced sanctions on China’s Equipment Development Department (EDD), the military branch responsible for weapons and equipment, for the procurement of the S-400 Triumf air defence system and Sukhoi S-35 fighter aircraft. The sanctions were triggered when the People’s Liberation Army’s took delivery of the systems. Washington expelled Turkey from the F-35 fighter jet programme in July this year after the first delivery of S-400s was received, and says sanctions are still under consideration unless Turkey reverses its deal with Russia. India is neither like China, which has an inimical relationship with the U.S., and hence not bound by its diktats, nor like Turkey which is a NATO ally of the U.S. and expected to comply with Washington’s demands, and hence hopes to escape CAATSA sanctions.

    Is a sanctions waiver possible for India?

    Written into the CAATSA language is also an exit clause, which states that “The [US] President may waive the application of [CAATSA] sanctions if the President determines that such a waiver is in the national security interest of the United States.” In August 2018, the U.S. Congress also modified the waiver clause to allow the President to certify that a country is “cooperating with the United States Government on other matters that are critical to United States’ strategic national security interests”. Government officials including Foreign Secretary Vijay Gokhale, National Security Adviser Ajit Doval and Mr. Jaishankar have all expressed the hope that the U.S. will exercise this waiver for the S-400 deal to India for a number of reasons: that a militarily stronger India is in the U.S.’s interests, and that India cannot completely drop its traditional dependence on Russian defence equipment without being weakened. In addition, it is no secret that U.S. President Donald Trump has misgivings about the CAATSA sanctions, which he said were meant to curtail his own powers to deal with Russia, and the other countries included in the act — Iran and North Korea. It is hoped that Mr. Trump will grant India a waiver on the deal, thanks to good bilateral relations with India and the fact that it is a “major defence partner” of the U.S.

    What happens if a waiver is not granted?

    Section 235 of the CAATSA legislation stipulates 12 kinds of punitive sanctions that the U.S. could place on a country conducting significant transactions in defence, energy, oil pipelines and cybersecurity technology with any of the U.S.’s “adversaries”, and according to the Act, the U.S. President may impose “five or more of the sanctions described”. These measures include export sanctions, cancellation of loans from U.S. and international financial institutions, ban on investments and procurement, restrictions on foreign exchange and banking transactions, and a visa and travel ban on officials associated with any entity carrying out the sanctioned transactions. None of these is expected to go into process until India takes delivery of the five S-400 systems it has paid an advance on, which are expected to begin in about 20 months and conclude by 2023.

    Has India given the U.S. a fait accompli on the S-400?

    India’s firm-footed response to the U.S. threat of sanctions on the Russian S-400 is in sharp contrast to its decision to “zero out” oil purchases from Iran, which were sanctioned by the U.S. last year, and denotes that while the government is prepared to diversify its energy sources, it will not be bullied on its defence security options. Given the stakes involved, the government hopes that the U.S. will put its burgeoning strategic, defence and business bilateral relationship with India above its rancour with Russia. If not, however, officials say they are prepared to ride out the storm.
    Pinto
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    Post  Pinto on Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:59 am

    US is free to use CATSAA or what ever but India won't be bullied not only on S400 but on other deals with Russia as well which in future will include more tanks (may be Armata) and at least 3 squadrons of su 57. US must understand that India is not like pakistan which was its closest ally in Afghanistan and Indian Govt will never allow relations with Russia to be held hostage by US

    India is neither like China, which has an inimical relationship with the U.S., and hence not bound by its diktats, nor like Turkey which is a NATO ally of the U.S. and expected to comply with Washington’s demands, and hence hopes to escape CAATSA sanctions.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:39 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:not anymore, China is

    That's correct. The mandarins in Kremlin have realized one fundamental truth - China is Russia's neighbor, not India. Moreover, China is the most prosperous neighbor Russia has and so far Kremlin has no reason to regret trade with China. The Chinese can buy 10X more Russian stuff than the Hindus can, ever.

    GarryB wrote:Would like to see India and Pakistan put aside their differences and learn to get on... though Pakistan has to stop funding and supporting terrorists of course... but then if the US and the west and Saudi Arabia and Israel continue to support terrorists why would Pakistan stop?

    Anglo-Saxons created Pakistan to keep India in check. China uses Pakistan for exactly the same reason.

    So there will be no peace between India and Pakistan. They will continue to fight. Pakistan by virtue of sponsoring Islamic terrorism inside India is actually winning the battle.

    Basically the West destroys the economy and politics of countries in Africa, India and other third world states. This compels the highly skilled migrants to migrate to US, UK. So while the countries they migrate from suffer, the countries they migrate to, i.e US, UK, EU benefits from this brain drain.

    India today is controlled by a western Trojan. Pakistan is controlled by its military who are backed by the West and Mid East.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:01 am

    flamming_python wrote:All it takes is the right leadership and system of administration, and India can progress to becoming an industrialized and then post-industrialized power within decades, and leave all the caste system, preventable diseases and so on behind.

    And yet as you may have noticed 75 years after independence they are nowhere close to find an upright, strong leader like Putin or Xi.

    That's primarily because they are still controlled by the Brits. Have you noticed their Navy ships sports the St George flag ?


    flamming_python wrote:What has kept India backward is its lack of unity and its composition as a bunch of warring principalities and city states. This made it easy for the British, Portugese and so on to play divide and rule.

    They are still divided today as much in the name of caste, community today, as they were a 1000 years ago. That explains why every other Asian country - China, Japan, South Korea, Singapore etc have raced ahead of them. In such a fragmented, divided society it's very easy for the West to play the anti Russia card.


    flamming_python wrote:Ironically, it's due to the Brits that India had managed to unite into a cohesive entity for the first time in modern history.

    Actually this part is not true. Hindus had empires in the past too that controlled almost the whole of modern day India

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_Empire

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gupta_Empire

    The Brits realized in 1947 that they are in India to loot, not to govern. And that can easily be done by keeping your cronies in India without the need for any physical presence.

    Therefore, unlike China's independence, India's independence (along with African countries like South Africa etc) is a joke. They are still controlled by the Brits and Yankees with the help of their cronies who continue to rule India.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:56 pm

    That's correct. The mandarins in Kremlin have realized one fundamental truth - China is Russia's neighbor, not India. Moreover, China is the most prosperous neighbor Russia has and so far Kremlin has no reason to regret trade with China. The Chinese can buy 10X more Russian stuff than the Hindus can, ever.

    The Chinese can buy 10% of what India buys and then make their own version of what they bought and never buy that again.

    Why buy a DVD if you can download it for free from some local TV on demand service?

    The Chinese pay market rates for Russian stuff just like India, so the fact that China has a booming economy means nothing if the Indians want to import more food they will be paying more money than China pays.

    Anglo-Saxons created Pakistan to keep India in check. China uses Pakistan for exactly the same reason.

    Differences in religion and religious intolerance created Pakistan and Bangladesh and India.


    So there will be no peace between India and Pakistan. They will continue to fight. Pakistan by virtue of sponsoring Islamic terrorism inside India is actually winning the battle.


    Hahahahaha.... in one line you say there wont be peace and the fighting will continue, but that Pakistan is winning?

    The fact that there is no end in sight and there is fighting means both are losing... eventually they will work out there are only two solutions... one destroys the other, or they talk.

    Basically the West destroys the economy and politics of countries in Africa, India and other third world states. This compels the highly skilled migrants to migrate to US, UK. So while the countries they migrate from suffer, the countries they migrate to, i.e US, UK, EU benefits from this brain drain.

    Yeah, the brain drain is not really relevant because they might be their smartest and brightest, but they need to learn new languages and new cultures and be completely re-educated... and when they are re-educated there is a good chance these smart people will work out what you have been doing to their country and do something about it...

    The real irony is that most production has been moved to these poor countries because of lax labour laws and low wages makes it cheaper... so the smart people from the third world might move to the first world, but the majority of people in the first world don't have many jobs available because they all moved with the factories to poor countries.

    India today is controlled by a western Trojan.

    As FP said above, if that were true then why are they not buying F-16s and Abrams tanks and Patriot air defence systems and just dumping all their Soviet and Russian gear?

    Pakistan is controlled by its military who are backed by the West and Mid East.

    Pakistan is as much a victim of terrorism as it is a user of terrorists... it has all the problems of India and even less chance of solving them any time soon.

    I have read of programmes in India that are doing good, and I am confident with a bit of work and avoiding western advice they could have a wonderful future... they just need to avoid the rocks...

    And yet as you may have noticed 75 years after independence they are nowhere close to find an upright, strong leader like Putin or Xi.

    Russia started with Yeltsin, and could just as easily have had someone like Zhirinovsky considering the shit they went through during the 1990s...

    That's primarily because they are still controlled by the Brits. Have you noticed their Navy ships sports the St George flag ?

    Don't mistake tradition for allegiance... do you think the VDV or the Russian Naval Infantry will drop their striped tee shirts because now they might be considered Communist symbols?

    They are still divided today as much in the name of caste, community today, as they were a 1000 years ago. That explains why every other Asian country - China, Japan, South Korea, Singapore etc have raced ahead of them. In such a fragmented, divided society it's very easy for the West to play the anti Russia card.

    All countries have divided populations, in most former colonial countries there are the natives and the newer arrivals... in fact in New Zealand there were the Moriori which arrived first from the Pacific Island... and the Maori who arrived later and ate most of them... and then the white europeans who stole their land... pacific islanders are still coming here... mostly for health care and education, or to play rugby or rugby league.

    The Brits realized in 1947 that they are in India to loot, not to govern. And that can easily be done by keeping your cronies in India without the need for any physical presence.

    Therefore, unlike China's independence, India's independence (along with African countries like South Africa etc) is a joke. They are still controlled by the Brits and Yankees with the help of their cronies who continue to rule India.

    Hahahaha... hilarious.... and totally wrong... they did that in the Middle East in the 1920s when they split up known oil reserves with France... with Germany removed from the colonial powers they had to redraw the oil supplies between them and so they took the lowest of the low and put them in power because they would be brutal and owed their position to the British and French, which got them loyalty, but of course as Britain and France have faded loyalty has migrated to the US now as their guarantee of power in their own country.

    India is a democracy and if the people want good relations with Russia they can vote that way. You sound like the Polish guy complaining about Polish politicians and how Russia screwed them and is still screwing them... there is democracy and has been for some time... if there is a problem with the politicians you can't blame Russia or Britain... you got the vote.

    It is what pisses me off about most religions... your god gave you free will so if this place is fucked up it is because of the decisions people have made and not some divine punishment or test from god.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:41 pm

    Why is Russia interested in rapprochement between China and India: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2747431.html

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