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    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

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    flamming_python

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:interesting news.

    Whilst in theory the BTR4 is a better vehicle, the Ukrainians have really disappointed with their production schedules and quality... there was a potential $2.5Bn military agreement between Iraq and Ukraine... but its all gone to hell now.
    Yep that's what I thought immediately of too; the Ukrainian BTR-4 contract.
    SO what's the status on it anyway? Will it be cancelled? How many vehicles have been delivered and put into service? Will any more deliveries be accepted and the current contract fulfilled?

    The 6 AN32s they sold to Iraq, they tried to pass off second hand cockpit and second hand engines as "new"... which the Iraqis rejected... then they had the BTR4s, not only late but with manufacturing defects, lack of engines and jamming guns among other "problems"!!
    OMG are you serious? lol1 
    'lack of engines'? Do you mean that literally?
    I don't want to be harsh on the Ukrainians but this is pure gold. About the other "problems", please tell us more.. Shocked

    I guess Russia had a few such problems with some of its contracts, but never anything so extensive or obvious as I recall. 

    all in all, the impression is that the Ukrainians seem to have fallen for the false stereotyping of "stupid arabs with money" when it came to dealing with Iraqis.
    More like the Iraqis have fallen for the Ukrainians.

    Ukroboronprom is like that 2nd hand car dealership on the outskirts of town with the shifty dealer. Everyone knows its bad news, and you get only what you pay for, sometimes less; but some people still like to fancy their luck securing a bargain, they think that they are smart enough to avoid getting ripped-off.
    Well Iraq has been taught a lesson I guess.

    a89

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  a89 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:47 pm

    The 6 AN32s they sold to Iraq, they tried to pass off second hand cockpit and second hand engines as "new"... which the Iraqis rejected... then they had the BTR4s, not only late but with manufacturing defects, lack of engines and jamming guns among other "problems"!!
    Ukraine has been struggling to create a full production cycle. Iraqui authorities also accused Ukrainian manufacturers of using steel plates for BTR-70 production. I had never read anything about lack of engines... surely this must be a translation error.



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    TR1

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:50 pm

    sheytanelkebir wrote:But Ukraine is still exporting stuff to a lot of other customers... I don't know why the other customers seem satisfied whilst the Iraqi orders got messed up (truth be told they did sell some ARVs and other things to Iraq which were good)... the BTRs OTOH... they appeared in one parade in Baghdad, and now the 5th division which is supposed to operate them is back in HUMVEES... Sad
    Most of their exports have been ex-Soviet stocks or rebuilt Soviet vehicles. BTR-3 is basically a re-built BTR-80 for example, and can you guess what tank they have sold the most? T-64, T-80, Oplot, Bulat? Nope, good old used T-72 Smile.

    Nothing the size of this BTR-4 contract, which is why they stumbled hard IMO.
    KMBD used to be part of a vast Soviet armored vehicle production chain, since that is gone they have had difficulty covering all bases of production. There were news recently of them trying to illegally import tank rollers from Russia D:
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    TR1

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:52 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Ukroboronprom is like that 2nd hand car dealership on the outskirts of town with the shifty dealer. Everyone knows its bad news, and you get only what you pay for, sometimes less; but some people still like to fancy their luck securing a bargain, they think that they are smart enough to avoid getting ripped-off.
    Well Iraq has been taught a lesson I guess.
    Unless I remember incorrectly, part of the reason Ukraine got the contract in the first place was political American pressure....may not even have been Iraq's fist choice.

    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:47 pm

    a89 wrote:
    The 6 AN32s they sold to Iraq, they tried to pass off second hand cockpit and second hand engines as "new"... which the Iraqis rejected... then they had the BTR4s, not only late but with manufacturing defects, lack of engines and jamming guns among other "problems"!!
    Ukraine has been struggling to create a full production cycle. Iraqui authorities also accused Ukrainian manufacturers of using steel plates for BTR-70 production. I had never read anything about lack of engines... surely this must be a translation error.



    The factory making the 3TD engines went bust, and they were supposed to install german engines instead... that spat caused the initial delay in deliveries... then the problem with the 30mm cannon came up, then the armour plate cracks etc... etc...

    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:48 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Ukroboronprom is like that 2nd hand car dealership on the outskirts of town with the shifty dealer. Everyone knows its bad news, and you get only what you pay for, sometimes less; but some people still like to fancy their luck securing a bargain, they think that they are smart enough to avoid getting ripped-off.
    Well Iraq has been taught a lesson I guess.
    Unless I remember incorrectly, part of the reason Ukraine got the contract in the first place was political American pressure....may not even have been Iraq's fist choice.
    It was a "golden handshake" for Ukraine's participation in the 2003 war.

    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:52 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    sheytanelkebir wrote:interesting news.

    Whilst in theory the BTR4 is a better vehicle, the Ukrainians have really disappointed with their production schedules and quality... there was a potential $2.5Bn military agreement between Iraq and Ukraine... but its all gone to hell now.
    Yep that's what I thought immediately of too; the Ukrainian BTR-4 contract.
    SO what's the status on it anyway? Will it be cancelled? How many vehicles have been delivered and put into service? Will any more deliveries be accepted and the current contract fulfilled?
    about 150 have been delivered out of the order for 420 (they should ALL have been delivered by now as per contract). Iraq has paid for the ones delivered, but they are not in active use, having been driven just in the army day parade in January 2013... and  since then the 5th mechanised division (who are supposed to receive all the 420 BTR4s) have been driving around in HUMVEES and MRAPs... Iraqis were planning on mechanising another 2-3 divisions with further batches of these... looks like NONE of the Mechanised divisions will end up with BTR4s now.

    I don't know what's happened with the "Barrier" anti tank missiles either... many have been delivered, but without BTR4s, they are useless. And now Iraq is buying a large batch of KORNETs from Russia, so the future for the "Barrier" missile looks bleak indeed!

    Its a shame really. The BTR4 looked really great on paper. remote turret with 4x missiles and 30mm, rearanged interior with rear ramp, decent armour and the anti-RPG shield, thermal night vision, air con etc... for about $700k each.
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    mack8

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  mack8 on Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:41 am

    Didn't realized the background of the ukrainian deals (i.e the american involvement).

    Reading the news about potentially russian companies to modernize iraqi "BMPs and BTRs", would be a slap in the face for the ukrainians if those BTR-4s will be fixed/upgraded by a russian company.
    In other news, first group of iraqi Mi-35 pilots and maintainers (presumably) are nearing the completion of their training in Russia at Torzhok. So, no Mi-35 (or Mi-28) delivery this month ?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:04 am

    About the upcoming delivery of Mi-35M Iraq

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/622741.html

    a89

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  a89 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:31 am

    I will put this piece of news here, because it's related:

    SE Pacifica is free to go. It seems that Irak is going to cancel the contract.

    http://dumskaya.net/news/irak-okonchatelno-otkazalsya-ot-ukrainskih-brone-029663/

    Now negotiations are taking place with Russia for BTR-82:

    http://vpk-news.ru/news/17578
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:16 am

    a89 wrote:I will put this piece of news here, because it's related:

    SE Pacifica is free to go. It seems that Irak is going to cancel the contract.

    http://dumskaya.net/news/irak-okonchatelno-otkazalsya-ot-ukrainskih-brone-029663/

    Now negotiations are taking place with Russia for BTR-82:

    http://vpk-news.ru/news/17578
    So pretty much as predicted in this very thread then. Nice unshaven

    And that story is just hillarious. Ukrainian government is avoiding contact with its own arms transport vessel. Dude..
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    TR1

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TR1 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:31 am

    Tarsenko is going to kill himself.

    Lol!

    a89

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  a89 on Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:10 pm

    Tarsenko is going to kill himself.


    He has not made any comment on his blog yet.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:59 pm

    Mi-35 intended for Iraq undergoing flight test at Rostvertol plant in Rostov-on-Don.


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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:43 pm

    Where there is a will, there is a way. Very Happy 

    Iraq plans to expand military-technical cooperation with Russia
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    mack8

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  mack8 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:18 am

    First Mi-35Ms ready for delivery (photos from today or few days ago):
    http://aviaforum.ru/showpost.php?p=1434346&postcount=4466
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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:44 pm

    First pic and first 4 delivered 





    In pictures: loading four Mi-35 helicopters for Iraq
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    mack8

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  mack8 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 10:00 am

    Iraqi Mi-35M on TV:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fgAWkXbLGU

    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:47 pm

    only 3 Mi35M were shown on Iraqi TV being accepted.

    what happened with the 4th?
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    mack8

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  mack8 on Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:03 am

    Perhaps kept as a spare for the flying display, or they were still working on it? All sources i've read mention 4 delivered, with 2 more to go by the end of this year apparently.

    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:12 pm

    confirmation that there were indeed 4.


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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:36 am

    nothing... no idea what's happening. That's the usual course of action in Iraq. Everything goes quiet, then a frenzy of activity, then quiet again.

    Big issue of course is April 2014 general election.

    That election will be followed by at least 6 months of haggling between political blocks to build a "coallition" to rule.

    in the meantime expect terrorist attacks to take a major hike up.

    the MOD are preparing themselves for that issue.

    The air force is still not recruiting enough young pilots and ground crews, they are having a hard time inducting all the new hardware that is on order already... F16, T50, Mi35, Mi28 and others.... they are upgrading and refurbishing old airbases, building new HQ's for army divisions, new transport and logistics hubs, ammo factories etc... all at once.

    The government is concerned mostly about improving the city infrastructures... after Iraq went through another year of floods... so expect military stuff to take "second place" whilst everyone scrambles to get reelected.

    then in the summer of 2014... expect the focus to go back to the military again.
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    TR1

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TR1 on Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:46 am

    Ah, damn.

    Thanks for fast reply, hope we get some clarity soon.

    And some Mi-28s in Iraqi desert colors.

    EDIT: Why the terrorist attack increase? Something to do with Syria...or?
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    mack8

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  mack8 on Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:56 am

    Considering iraqi pilots flew in MiG-35 bort 747, they surely must have tested Su-30MK2 too (the other fighter under consideration). I wonder if anything will come out of this. RSK MiG must have a dozen or so of SyAAF intended MiG-35s laying around doing nothing (and going nowhere anytime soon apparently) and crucially earning nothing, so a fast initial delivery won't be  a problem. On the other hand I would expect Su-30MK2s to be delivered starting about 2 years or so after contract inking.

    No word from RSK MiG and KnAAPO insiders about potential negotiations with Iraq?

    sheytanelkebir

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sheytanelkebir on Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:25 am

    terrorist attacks to destabilise the political process mainly.

    There was a news item today that Mi28 pilots have finished their training now, and the first helos expected next month... I wonder if this is corroborated by any pics from factory? certainly Maliki would love to have 2-3 night hunters on the army day parade on the 6th January... but somehow I doubt it now.


    Regarding fighters. Iraqis now have 2 "light fighters"... F16 and T50IQ (which is quite a close match in capability really, can carry 5T ordnance on 9 hardpoints, AESA radar and the same Sniper pod as F16 etc...).

    I would have thought the MiG35 would be a nice high end addition to that... SU35 seems too large for Iraq's requirements, we have plenty of airbases within 200km of each other scattered around the country.

    There could be a "course of action" of Maliki buying a whole load of weapons BEFORE the elections and paying deposits on them before the inevitable political paralysis of spring-summer-autumn 2014 until a new coalition government is established.  who knows?? The military are certainly desperate for more money to fund new staff positions and new weapons.

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