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    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:22 am

    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/464166.html
    -Because of the noise started by politicians over the deal with Russia, future large scale arms programs will not be publicized by the military.
    Don't you mean noise started by "American" politicians. Wink
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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:40 am

    Sujoy wrote:
    It's a dilemma for Russia in a way . If it sells large quantities of arms to Iraq , a predominantly Shia state , it looses out in the more lucrative Sunni states like Qatar , UAE , Saudi Arabia and maybe even Oman and Kuwait .

    Increasingly the Sunni states are looking towards Russia as a source of cutting edge weapon systems . These states spend more than 5% of their GDP on defense .


    But those Suni countries are already under US control and mostly buys US weapons.

    There is no need for Russia to to pick sides. It makes excellent killing machines and anybody should be able to buy some Very Happy
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    Sujoy

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Sujoy on Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:45 am

    Viktor wrote:But those Suni countries are already under US control and mostly buys US weapons.

    Agreed . But the situation is changing . Russia has sold BMP3 to Kuwait , UAE . Pantsir S 1 to Jordan and UAE . These countries till not so long ago were virtually US "client states" .

    Case in point , last weeks IDEX 2013 in Dubai saw the largest Russian participation ever.

    The previous arrangement between USA & the Sunni countries was the US purchases oil from them and they use the petro dollars to buy US weapons. However, with the US now deciding to bring oil exploration near shore ( US & Canada) the Sunni countries have realized that they too need to diversify their arms purchase.

    Viktor wrote:There is no need for Russia to to pick sides. It makes excellent killing machines and anybody should be able to buy some Very Happy

    Actually it is the buyer that picks sides Smile . For example , Russia probably would have been able to sell Su 35 to Brazil had Venezuela not expressed interest in purchasing them .
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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:00 pm

    Deal seams to be up and running.

    Iraq to Get Russian Weapons by June - Minister

    Russia will deliver attack helicopters and air-defense systems to Iraq before the summer, Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari said on Monday.

    Iraq to Get Russian Weapons by June - Minister

    a89

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  a89 on Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:50 pm

    A few years ago the Russian government was critisised in many forums for cancelling Iraq's debt. Now it seems that the Iraqui government will make some deals to compensate, and they will get another weapon supplier, which is always handy.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:35 pm

    a89 wrote:A few years ago the Russian government was critisised in many forums for cancelling Iraq's debt. Now it seems that the Iraqui government will make some deals to compensate, and they will get another weapon supplier, which is always handy.

    Dont forget the oil contracts.

    As US is supporting rebels across the world and using them to overthrow the governments Iraq could find itself interest in Russia.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:12 am

    It makes sense where there is little chance of old debts being paid anyway.

    Forgiving debt often gets rid of the biggest obstacle to good trade relations with countries...

    Russia does not need to offer security guarantees to sell weapons, what they need to do is treat other countries with respect and sell them the weapons they want... within reason and allow those countries to defend themselves.

    Promising to protect someone is a serious obigation... a good example would be the agreement the US had with central and south american countries where the US promised to assist them if they took the weapons the US was selling them and didn't buy from the soviets.

    When the UK sent forces to the Falklands a lot of american countries... mexico and below suddenly realised that the UK and other countries were higher up the food chain than they were and they could not expect real help from the US against old colonial europe...


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    TR1

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TR1 on Thu May 30, 2013 10:31 pm

    http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20130530/940390719.html

    Looks like the deal is on. First payments received, and production has started.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Fri May 31, 2013 3:33 am

    Nice. Another huge win for Pancir-S1 and a logical choice over TOR-M2.

    I hope other military contract in preparation where not stalled by the effect of this one. Anyway good to hear this huge contract is

    moving forward. I think Mi-28 will be put in good use as soon as they arrive.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:32 am

    Is this some kind of mistake or deal on top of Mi-28N/Pancir-S1 with Iraq?


    Russia has signed with Iraq a contract for the delivery of KA-52 helicopters - source


    Russia’s Rosoboronexport Company has concluded its first contract to supply Iraq with the Ka-52 helicopters, RIA Novosti reported from the Le Bourget aerospace show that was opened on Monday citing a source in the Russian delegation.
    Speaking at a news conference, head of the delegation Alexander Mikheev said that the first contract to supply the K-52 helicopters was signed but did not mention the contract value and the country.
    The contract was signed with Iraq in the framework of the 2012 agreement, the source said.
    In 2012, Russia and Iraq concluded a contract to supply weapons and military equipment to a sum of $4.3 billion.
    Voice of Russia, RIA Novosti

    Read more: http://english.ruvr.ru/news/2013_06_17/Russia-has-signed-with-iraq-a-contract-for-the-delivery-of-ka-52-helicopters-source-ria-novosti-5646/

    LINK
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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:39 am

    But also from "Interfax military" today. 

    - First contract for Mi-28N Night Hunter / signed

    Most likely for Iraq as part of original deal.
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:09 pm

    There is still some skepticism regarding the Iraq order for the Ka-52, but it's mentioned by several agencies. I just came across the following...




    . wrote:On June 18, an Iraqi military source confirmed that the air force command will receive “Alligator” combat helicopters from Russia in the coming period.

    In a statement to Al-Monitor, the source, a senior Iraqi army officer, said that "the aircraft will be of the Ka-52 and Mi-28NE models from the French Le Bourget Air Show.”


    Iraq to Receive Russian Military Helicopters
    http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/tr/contents/articles/opinion/2013/06/iraq-army-helicopters-russia-military.html
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    TR1

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:20 pm

    If true, their Attack Helo purchase is as absurd as Russias.
    Ka-52, Mi-28 AND Mi-35.
    Doh!
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    Zivo

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Zivo on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:16 am

    What would be the reasoning behind parallel purchases of Mi-28s and Ka-52s?

    Isn't the Ka-52 better all around?
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    Viktor

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:54 am

    There was some talk about Ka-52 use as command helicopter in a Mi-28 group. Cant remember where I read about it. 

    Perhaps that could be it?
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    TR1

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:02 am

    It's an absurd complication when you could just use Arbalet armed Mi-28, when that is completely ready. Their roles overlap massively, despite all the attempts to make the Mi-28 seem like the "tank" and the Ka-52 as the special ops bird.

    There really is no good reason to complicate the picture by getting both, unless you are Russia, which gets the spares domestically, and (the real reason) has multiple factories and bureaus to employ.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:46 am

    TR1 wrote:It's an absurd complication when you could just use Arbalet armed Mi-28, when that is completely ready. Their roles overlap massively, despite all the attempts to make the Mi-28 seem like the "tank" and the Ka-52 as the special ops bird.

    There really is no good reason to complicate the picture by getting both, unless you are Russia, which gets the spares domestically, and (the real reason) has multiple factories and bureaus to employ.

    Key word here is "when they are ready".  Fact is, Mi-28 does not have it yet and even though the ones for Iraq are supposed to have it, they may be few inbetween that have it, and not all of them.  It is like in Russia where they will use the Ka-52 as a C&C aircraft, while the Mi-28's would then compliment the Ka-52 in being heavy combat platforms.  Mi-35 is a good training helicopter and is apparently cheaper overall, due to the mass production of them.  Having them around is good, to compliment both as they could possibly field more of them than they can of the Mi-28's.  It makes a good interim upgrade before they replace them indefinitely with Mi-28's.
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    TR1

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:27 am

    But they aren't used like that. Mi-28s and Ka-52s operate in completely separate units, with no combined training really.
    If Iraq wants Ka-52, then Mi-28 is pointless. That further makes Mi-35 buy questionable, since it at least has SOME commonality with Mi-28. 
    Even then, getting a combination is wasteful, unless they really plan to use Mi-24s troop capacity. In this case Mi-8 + Mi-28 is a better alternative anyways.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:20 pm

    If true, their Attack Helo purchase is as absurd as Russias.
    Ka-52, Mi-28 AND Mi-35.
    Doh!

    Not absurd at all.

    The Mi-28NE is the standard attack helo... sort of an Apache equivalent.

    The Mi-35 in the Russian military represents an upgrade of existing Hinds that uses components from the Mi-28 which also makes sense because it is cheaper yet also far more capable than the original in terms of weapons options and night and all weather equipment.

    The Ka-52 is very much a recon helo like the Commanche was going to be like... a very heavy, very expensive Little Bird... with heavy armour and firepower instead of stealth... a tank in a recon platoon.

    Isn't the Ka-52 better all around?

    Different. Both are rugged capable aircraft, the main areas of advantage for the Havoc are low cost easy maintainence with good performance. The Hokum probably has better flight performance and would be good in hot and high roles, but likely more expensive to buy and operate.

    It is like in Russia where they will use the Ka-52 as a C&C aircraft, while the Mi-28's would then compliment the Ka-52 in being heavy combat platforms.  Mi-35 is a good training helicopter and is apparently cheaper overall, due to the mass production of them.

    AFAIK they are looking at Ka-31s for the C & C role:



    Note Army camouflage and President-S self defence suite...

    The Ka-52s are used by special operations forces, while the Mi-28s are used by Army Aviation in the attack role together with Mi-35s and Hinds.

    They are working on a training version of the Mi-28 with dual controls, but for the moment the training helo is ANSAT.

    Mi-35 is cheaper than the Mi-28 or Ka-52 and has flexibility for para military use as well as the capacity to drop small teams and recover them or rescue small groups/downed aircrew.

    For airborne forces the larger capacity of the Mi-17 makes rather more sense than Mi-35s, but in terms of firepower with four underwing positions for weapons and a twin barrel 23mm chin mounted cannon plus 50 cal HMG mounts or 30mm grenade launcher mounts in the cabin doorway the Mi-35 does have serious fire power potential, but the Ka-52 has the edge in long range fire power with precision weapons like Vikhr-M.

    Mi-28 would have Ataka-M and Krisantema-M and later HERMES which would be good enough for most threats while not being too expensive to use.


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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:22 pm

    This of course could be a case of Mig-29 vs Su-27 again with the Mi-28 and Ka-52 offering very similar products with the Kamov seeming to be more ready/capable yet also more expensive to buy and operate.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:09 am

    I am the only one who is bothered through the fact that Iraq is today nothing more than an US province in terms of policy, scammed and pressured by their will?

    I really have big trouble to believe this helicopters are just for Iraq, i am pretty sure they try to get their hands on kamov helicopter and mi aswell, since american helicopters have in co-axial design completley no experience except of few prototypes which won't see active service as combat helicopter anywhere in next 2 decades, the other thing is they still have nothing similiar for survivability like ejection seats nor a fully automated counter part for Vitebsk and lot more things that are very advanced.

    I don't trust this deal or any deal with countries under US or NATO influence.

    They already blackmailed other countries like Marocco to get hands on MSTA-S and they were immidiatley shipped to US.

    Hachimoto

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Hachimoto on Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:13 am

    Werewolf wrote:

    They already blackmailed other countries like Marocco to get hands on MSTA-S and they were immidiatley shipped to US.

    Dude spell it right and check your informations then you could make super agent  assumption  !!!

    Moroccan army is a Professional army even with a little budget !! MSTA-S ????

    And if you think it is as easy as getting their hand on a design to start copying it, then you overestimate the US.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:00 am

    I don't trust this deal or any deal with countries under US or NATO influence.

    I agree and would suggest that the Mi-28NE that the Iraqis will get will not be the same as the Mi-28Ms the Russian military will be flying in 2016.


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:26 am

    TR1 wrote:But they aren't used like that. Mi-28s and Ka-52s operate in completely separate units, with no combined training really.
    If Iraq wants Ka-52, then Mi-28 is pointless. That further makes Mi-35 buy questionable, since it at least has SOME commonality with Mi-28. 
    Even then, getting a combination is wasteful, unless they really plan to use Mi-24s troop capacity. In this case Mi-8 + Mi-28 is a better alternative anyways.

    Stop putting reason into multiple type helicopter purchases. It has to do more with what worries the Iraqi leaders: with the events all around them (Syria, Kurdistan etc) Iraqi leaders are really worried and need to re-equip their armed forces fast....very fast. Deliveries of one type of helicopter (Mi-28) will take time, so get Ka-52 at the same type to double the speed of re-equipment. Sure it will create logistics and training problems and increase costs, but the priority is to get as many choppers as fast as possible.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:46 am

    Hachimoto wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:

    They already blackmailed other countries like Marocco to get hands on MSTA-S and they were immidiatley shipped to US.

    Dude spell it right and check your informations then you could make super agent  assumption  !!!

    Moroccan army is a Professional army even with a little budget !! MSTA-S ????

    And if you think it is as easy as getting their hand on a design to start copying it, then you overestimate the US.

    I'm not your dude and don't tell me in this rude arrogant manner how to spell things, i already told when i first came to this forum that my english isn't perfect and since i pronounce or at least make an assumption that MAROKKO like in majority of languages with A spelled so i typed it like it is called in majority of languages without checking it. The other point is, i will let you know when i give a damn about your nonsense.

    This information is right, one single MSTA-S was purchased by morocco after blackmailing by US and was immidiatley shipped to US, the other source they propabably could get hands on MSTA-S is Georgia when they have supplied them and trained to invade and comitt terror against South Ossetian civilians.

    And US already did that in the past they copied and used lot of technology from R-73 ATAMs to develope AIM-9X.

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