Serbian Armed Forces

Lightning strike 2021  

M-20 MRAP currently under development is on it's second iteration:





Original one looks like this:

UAZ Patriot cars of the Serbian Military Police

I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks? I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.

miketheterrible wrote:I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks?  I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.

I doubt they have the industry for tanks. Maybe quick upgrades but not build new ones.

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks?  I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.

 

I doubt they have the industry for tanks. Maybe quick upgrades but not build new ones.

The older M-84's were new builds or upgrades?

miketheterrible wrote:

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks?  I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.

 

I doubt they have the industry for tanks. Maybe quick upgrades but not build new ones.

The older M-84's were new builds or upgrades?

All our M-84 tanks are 30+ years old.

Our people are working on new modernization, M-84AS2...they are modernizing first 10 units as we are speaking now, should be finished at the end of this year.

There is a new rumor saying that Serbia is buying 2 Casa C-295 and 1 Ilyushin Il-76 transport planes...don't have any solid confirmation, but our MOD announced that our paratroopers will have exercises with Spanish ones, so...

M-84 industry was spread all over Yugoslavia. I think none of the successor nations can build a whole tank.

CASA C-295 has been widely exported. Unfortunately Il-112 still not available so it would be little surprise if the EADS plane was selected.

littlerabbit wrote:There is a new rumor saying that Serbia is buying 2 Casa C-295 and 1 Ilyushin Il-76 transport planes...don't have any solid confirmation, but our MOD announced that our paratroopers will have exercises with Spanish ones, so...

It would make sense, same approach as with helicopters: light ones from Europe, heavy ones from Russia

Keep everyone happy

miketheterrible wrote:I see Serbia working on a lot of MRAPS but what about their heavier vehicles like tanks?  I had hopes to see adoption of the M-2002.

We make MRAPs because it's within our capability and because we do genuinely need them, during 90's we lost idiotic amount of troops in ambushes on tarp covered trucks, absolutely retarded

Goal is to have armor on everything that troops move around in, protection above all



Tanks (and tracked vehicles in general like IFVs) are way above above our pay grade

Even old Yugoslavia really had to bend over backwards to make M-84s, tanks ain't easy (just look at India)

Plus terrain over here is not exactly conductive to modern day tank warfare (lots of mountains), during Cold War yes but not anymore, times and tactics have changed

On the upside this latest upgrade package for M-84s seems to be taken seriously and is being properly implemented, combined with imported T-72s we should be covered


There is also upgrade package for BVP M-80 called M-80A, additional armor and other upgrades were installed while sacrificing amphibious capability (it's not needed here, just a handful of large bodies of water)

I saw at least 3 of them during these latest exercises so it seems that this too might have gone in production as well

New version:



Old version:

There is also one more thing...it seems we will buy Kornet ATGM.

That could mean we won't buy anything from Israel, probably due to their recognition of independence for a part of our territory (Kosovo and Metohija province).  

Maybe, or that Kornet works and is cheaper.

littlerabbit wrote:There is also one more thing...it seems we will buy Kornet ATGM.

That could mean we won't buy anything from Israel...

We will definitely be buying stuff from Israel, surveillance equipment was on the shopping list way before any ATGMs

What I am curious about is what we will end up buying from USA, we will have to get something to keep them happy but what?

I hope it's the T-7 jets but who knows and anything can happen...

littlerabbit wrote:probably due to their recognition of independence for a part of our territory (Kosovo and Metohija province).

That thing has quite a few layers to it: we agreed to negotiate with USA who then negotiated with Kosovo so no touching happened

Kosovo agreed to do things that they haven't implemented yet and for which are now getting squeezed by USA because USA signature is on that paper and pressure is slowly but surely rising

We agreed with USA to move embassy to Jerusalem but we did not agree to Israel recognizing Kosovo and now when they did we put embassy move on ice (which we are in full right to do)

Kosovo did immediately (and foolishly) open their embassy in Jerusalem which got them in extremely hot water with every single Muslim country on the planet, something that flies under the radar of media but which is a really big deal and a massive problem for them

So the game continues...

PapaDragon wrote:
I hope it's the T-7 jets but who knows and anything can happen...

That's interesting. Are their any plans to buy into the F-35's in future?

Mir wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
I hope it's the T-7 jets but who knows and anything can happen...

That's interesting. Are their any plans to buy into the F-35's in future?

Nope and I could write 50 pages about why

One crucial reason completely devoid of politics, price, history, quality and everything else is that it has no place in our defense doctrine: for us to use something we want complete access to the platform, F-35 is complete opposite of that approach

This is one of the reasons why we opted for Chinese AA system, yes we are good with Chinese, the price was amazing and it's more​ mobile and compact than BUK but China was willing to give us (as early adopters) access to the system that even Russia would not be too eager to and allow us to do whatever we want with it from tweaking small things to developing completely new features

Imagine doing that with F-35?

Also we are set with MiG-29s now and if Russia doesn't fudge things up down the road with it's fighter jet production we will most likely get whatever they sell in that class later

That MiG donation secured their spot on our purchase list

Yes that's why I was wondering as the Mig-29's are set for a long future in Serbia.

The T-7's will also come with a very steep price tag as well! Rather shop Chinese or get some Yak-130's for a nice replacement for the G-4's.

Mir wrote:Yes that's why I was wondering as the Mig-29's are set for a long future in Serbia...

Switching to different plane manufacturer is a massive hassle and costs loads of money so if there is an option to keep buying from the same supplier any airforce will always pick that option

Now it's up to Russians to either keep MiG-35 in production until then or to develop LMFS on time

Mir wrote:...The T-7's will also come with a very steep price tag as well! Rather shop Chinese or get some Yak-130's for a nice replacement for the G-4's.

Like I said we have to buy something from USA so they don't start acting up (nobody wants that) and T-7s are the only thing I can think of they are offering that we either don't already have or make ourselves

Plus while they may be expensive we would be getting value for that money, those are good planes and fit perfectly for our airforce (also unlike Russian or Chinese they are supersonic so that's a big bonus)

PapaDragon wrote:
Like I said we have to buy something from USA so they don't start acting up (nobody wants that) and T-7s are the only thing I can think of they are offering that we either don't already have or make ourselves

Sounds a bit like extortion doesn't it?

Just a side note: I think the EMB-314 Super Tucano would then actually be a great option as it can probably act as a duel role. I would like to see my country going for that option as well but with all the corruption the military is too scared to buy anything!

Plus while they may be expensive we would be getting value for that money, those are good planes and fit perfectly for our airforce (also unlike Russian or Chinese they are supersonic so that's a big bonus)

Hahaha... Really...

Even medium and heavy fighters very rarely fly supersonic except those designed from the outset to super cruise or dedicated interceptors.

Getting to supersonic speed takes too long and burns up most of your fuel and once you get supersonic you can't manouver very well and essentially fly very straight and pretty much have to fly at medium or high altitude making yourself a sitting duck for medium and long range SAMs.

The only advantage to supersonic speeds is extra reach with AAMs... but small trainer/fighters are hardly going to be stretching AAM range very much against 200km range targets, and of course interception... which I would expect would more often be allocated to larger heavier fighters.

Sounds a bit like extortion doesn't it?

It is the game all countries have to play in the west... it is the way the US wants it.

Actually thinking of something American that would be worth buying is quite an exercise... I would probably say night vision optics maybe, or some sort of relatively small drone system.... not their big super expensive murder bots of course, but something smaller.

Mir wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:
Like I said we have to buy something from USA so they don't start acting up (nobody wants that) and T-7s are the only thing I can think of they are offering that we either don't already have or make ourselves

Sounds a bit like extortion doesn't it? ...

Of course it's extortion

My bad if I was being too subtle

Mir wrote:...Just a side note: I think the EMB-314 Super Tucano would then actually be a great option as it can probably act as a duel role....

We already have our local plane in similar category, Iraq too has been using them to drop some heat on ISIS back during jihad glory days:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utva_Lasta

But we do need something bigger and faster both for pilot training and bombing work, using jet trainers as fast light bombers is big part of our military doctrine

Mir wrote:PapaDragon"

[quote="Mir"]...Just a side note: I think the EMB-314 Super Tucano would then actually be a great option as it can probably act as a duel role....

We already have our local plane in similar category, Iraq too has been using them to drop some heat on ISIS back during jihad glory days:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utva_Lasta

But we do need something bigger and faster both for pilot training and bombing work, using jet trainers as fast light bombers is big part of our military doctrine