Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

GarryB wrote:As you can see... from the front... one gun, two UKSK launchers then 8 Uran launch tubes where the old Metel launchers were, so essentially 16 cruise missile launch tube

The two UKSK launchers are for firing SAMs. They won't fire any cruise missiles. How did you arrive at this figure of 16 cruise missiles that Udaloy can carry?

GarryB wrote:Yep, slow flying easy to shoot down missiles... that need to be used in enormous numbers to have a chance of being effective.

Applies to Russian subsonic missiles as well.

RTN wrote:

GarryB wrote:As you can see... from the front... one gun, two UKSK launchers then 8 Uran launch tubes where the old Metel launchers were, so essentially 16 cruise missile launch tube

The two UKSK launchers are for firing SAMs. They won't fire any cruise missiles. How did you arrive at this figure of 16 cruise missiles that Udaloy can carry?

GarryB wrote:Yep, slow flying easy to shoot down missiles... that need to be used in enormous numbers to have a chance of being effective.

Applies to Russian subsonic missiles as well.

UKSK fire only cruise missiles, for now.

Russia will use Tzirkon, kinzhal and other hypersonic missiles against any nato ship. Kh-35, if used, will be used against lightly armed ships or support ships or to confuse nato AD by launching a salvo of kh-35 then a few Tzirkon so that they come at the same time on the target. It's very hard to deal with low altitudes attack and in the same time high altitude ones.

IIRC aegis can't track low flying object if it is used in ABM role which would be the case against Kinzhal so a kinzhal/kh-35 attack is fatal to it

Isos wrote:UKSK fire only cruise missiles, for now.

Similar launchers are used for Poliment-Redut SAMs.

Isos wrote: It's very hard to deal with low altitudes attack and in the same time high altitude ones.  

That's what the rolling air frame missiles are for.

Re hypersonic cruise missiles, more and more U.S surface combatants are being armed with Directed Energy Weapon systems to deal with these type of threats. So far eight destroyers have been armed with DEWs. They are still being tested but then so is Tzirkon.

RTN wrote:

Isos wrote:UKSK fire only cruise missiles, for now.

Similar launchers are used for Poliment-Redut SAMs.

Isos wrote: It's very hard to deal with low altitudes attack and in the same time high altitude ones.  

That's what the rolling air frame missiles are for.

Re hypersonic cruise missiles, more and more U.S surface combatants are being armed with Directed Energy Weapon systems to deal with these type of threats. So far eight destroyers have been armed with DEWs. They are still being tested but then so is Tzirkon.

Uksk has nothing in common with redut. One fires 9m long cruise missiles, the other 9m96, 9m100 family of AD missiles.

Hypersonic missiles resist friction with the air at mach 10 and above which is very high temperature. Lasers work few km away which is traveled in few seconds by the hypersonic missiles and they need few seconds to burn a plastic drone. No time and no power to destroy them with lasers.

Those lasers on US destroyers are there to counter small drones. It wouldn't work even against a subsonic missiles.

Ironically, only Russia currently has a hypersonic weapon and is the only one with a laser which it can try to destroy hypersonic missiles. I am talking about the Peresvet laser.

Isos wrote:
Hypersonic missiles resist friction with the air at mach 10 and above which is very high temperature. Lasers work few km away which is traveled in few seconds by the hypersonic missiles and they need few seconds to burn a plastic drone. No time and no power to destroy them with lasers.

Those lasers on US destroyers are there to counter small drones. It wouldn't work even against a subsonic missiles.

well depends on power. Ship turbines can provide enough energy for shooting But I dont think its gonna be enough for many incoming missiles.

well depends on power. Ship turbines can provide enough energy  for shooting But I dont think its gonna be enough for many incoming missiles.

The further is the target the less energy it will have because it dissipates over the distance.

Moving at a speed of mach 10 which is 3.5km/s means that the missile will go through the engagement zone of the laser in matter of 4-5 seconds which is a 14-17.5km engagement range. During those few seconds you need to track the missile, start your laser, go through the frontal section of the missile that can sustain air friction at mach 10 so can sustain the burns of a laser, then go through the inside which is probably covered by anti-laser materials, then burn the warhead to make it explode.

And you would need to repeat that for all the missiles in the salvo.

Not realistic.

Ships have very low chances to escape a salvo of subsonic missiles let alone hypersonic ones. 2 Iraqi exocet went through US frigate USS Stark without even being detected by its radars.

The two UKSK launchers are for firing SAMs. They won't fire any cruise missiles. How did you arrive at this figure of 16 cruise missiles that Udaloy can carry?

Look at the photo I posted... UKSK launchers can't launch SAMs, only the UKSK-M can do that and AFAIK it has not been fitted to any ships yet and if they did it would need all new radar arrays for the new missiles it could carry.

UKSK-M launchers can carry Redut missiles and also Naval BUK missiles as well, but would need AESA arrays for search and guidance roles which the upgraded Udaloy seems to be lacking.

UKSK and UKSK-M can however carry all the Kalibr and related missiles like the subsonic 3,000km range land attack Kalibr and the subsonic anti ship version with an unknown range, and the subsonic anti ship missile with the mach 3 supersonic rocket terminal attack stage, and of course the Onyx supersonic anti ship and land attack missile and will be compatible with the mach 9 Zircon anti ship and land attack missile... plus of course it has the capacity to carry the Ovtet anti sub ballistic rocket delivering a torpedo to target.

8 x 2 UKSK launch tubes can carry cruise missiles and the Uran Kh-35U quad launchers where the old Udaloy carried Metel anti sub missiles is another 8 missiles that have anti ship and land attack capacity out to 260km... so that would potentially be 24 missiles actually.

Applies to Russian subsonic missiles as well.

Absolutely... the obvious problem of course is that not all ships and land targets are well protected... especially non Russian targets, so the requirement to penetrate enemy defences is much lower most of the time for the Russians so they can keep some simple and cheap missiles for the job while their better missiles can break defences and make later follow up shots with cheaper less capable missiles effective where they might not have been effective if fired first.

Similar launchers are used for Poliment-Redut SAMs.

Upgraded UKSK-M launchers are used for Poliment Redut.... but Poliment is not a missile... it is a radar array... which the upgraded Udaloys lack suggesting they are not going to use UKSK-Ms this time around.

Later on they might decide to standardise on UKSK-Ms so everything gets it, but until then it is not likely.

BTW if it is then each of those 16 tubes can carry four 9M96 missiles with a range of 60km or 150km, or each tube could carry 16 9M100 short range air defence CIWS missiles... in addition to all the strike cruise missiles and anti sub ballistic missile I mentioned above... which would be even better and also the new Naval BUK missile can be carried and launched... one per tube because it is a bigger missile... but also not only that instead of four 9M96 missiles per tube for 16 tubes they should also be able to carry one S-400 SAM per tube in the form of a 400km or 250km range missile... with serious ABM capacity.

Hypersonic missiles resist friction with the air at mach 10 and above which is very high temperature. Lasers work few km away which is traveled in few seconds by the hypersonic missiles and they need few seconds to burn a plastic drone. No time and no power to destroy them with lasers.

Most of those DEW are useless beyond about 2km range, and considering Zircon will be moving at just over 3km per second I don't rate their chances really...

well depends on power. Ship turbines can provide enough energy for shooting But I dont think its gonna be enough for many incoming missiles.

The Zumwalt class ships were supposed to have a new revolutionary power system that allowed high energy weapons... but it does not work...

Impressive low IR signature of Essen frigate taken by a french frigate in black sea.

Must be Klingon tech.

And this is a little older tech Grigorovich class and not more modern Gorshkov or Gremyashchy class.

Very recent phot of LADNY (pr. 1135) near Sevastopol:

Huge version of below photo: https://radikal.ru/lfp/a.radikal.ru/a06/2112/ea/c83ee817ace5.jpg/htm

The handsome old Krivak class... a simple upgrade would be to replace that enormous deck mounted four tube Metel missile launcher with a Medvedka...

Grigorovich

Admiral Makarov in Sevastopol earlier this month.

ADMIRAL KORNILOV frigate

MOSCOW, January 10. / TASS /. The final decision on the fate of the sixth frigate of Project 11356, built by the Baltic Shipbuilding Plant (PSZ) "Yantar" (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) has not yet been made. This was announced to TASS by the general director of PSZ Ilya Samarin.
"The sixth ship of project 11356 is currently mothballed and is located in the water area of ​​the plant, the final decision has not been made," he said, answering the question whether the RF Ministry of Defense has decided on the fate of the sixth building of this project. The initial plans included the construction of six Project 11356 frigates for the Black Sea Fleet (BSF) of Russia. However, these plans had to be adjusted after Ukraine's refusal to supply power plants. As a result, the Black Sea Fleet received three frigates of this project, three hulls were launched. In 2018, a contract was signed according to which PSZ will complete the construction of two hulls for the Indian Navy, and two more, with Russian participation, will be built at the Indian shipyard Goa Shipyard Ltd. The gas turbine units were directly purchased by India from Ukraine and will be supplied to Yantar by the Indian government. The first two ships built by PSZ are planned to be transferred to the Indian Navy in 2023 and 2024.



МОСКВА, 10 января. /ТАСС/. Окончательное решение по судьбе шестого фрегата проекта 11356 постройки Прибалтийского судостроительного завода (ПСЗ) "Янтарь" (входит в Объединенную судостроительную корпорацию) пока не принято. Об этом ТАСС заявил генеральный директор ПСЗ Илья Самарин. "Шестой корпус проекта 11356 в настоящее время законсервирован и находится на акватории завода, окончательное решение не принято", - сказал он, отвечая на вопрос, определилось ли Минобороны РФ с судьбой шестого корпуса этого проекта. Первоначальными планами предполагалось строительство шести фрегатов проекта 11356 для Черноморского флота (ЧФ) России. Однако эти планы пришлось корректировать после отказа Украины поставлять силовые установки. В итоге ЧФ получил три фрегата этого проекта, три корпуса были спущены на воду.В 2018 году был подписан контракт, согласно которому ПСЗ достроит два корпуса для ВМС Индии, еще два при российском участии будут строиться на индийской верфи Goa Shipyard Ltd. Газотурбинные установки были напрямую закуплены Индией на Украине и будут поставляться на "Янтарь" индийским правительством. Первые два корабля постройки ПСЗ планируется передать ВМС Индии в 2023 и 2024 годы.

TASS; May 18, 00:46

The new flagship of the Black Sea Fleet of Russia may be the frigate "Admiral Makarov"

It is assumed that it will replace the sunken cruiser "Moskva"




TASS, May 18. Missile frigate "Admiral Makarov" project 11356 may become the flagship of the Russian Black Sea Fleet (BSF) after the death of the cruiser "Moskva". This was reported to TASS by a source close to the power structures of the Crimea.
“After the death of the Moskva, one of the three frigates of the far sea zone of project 11356 may become the new flagship of the Black Sea Fleet. So far, the choice has been made in favor of the Admiral Makarov,” he said.

TASS has no official information on this matter.

In the fall of 2021, on the sidelines of the IX International Maritime Business Forum, held in Sevastopol, a TASS source said that after the completion of construction at the Zaliv shipyard in Kerch, the newest project 23900 landing helicopter carrier Mitrofan Moskalenko will become the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, to be based in Sevastopol the relevant infrastructure is already being prepared. "Admiral Makarov" is the third frigate of the sea zone of project 11356 and is named after the Russian naval commander and scientist, Vice Admiral Stepan Osipovich Makarov. The transfer of the frigate to the Navy took place on December 27, 2017. Repeatedly was part of the permanent grouping of the Russian Navy in the Mediterranean Sea.

This is a series of multi-purpose frigates (patrol ships) of the far sea zone, designed to destroy surface ships and ships, submarines and enemy ground targets, patrol, patrol, and protect sea lanes. The ships have a displacement of about 4,000 tons, a speed of 30 knots, and a navigation autonomy of 30 days. The frigate is armed with Caliber-NK cruise missiles, the Shtil-1 self-defense missile system, the A-190 100 mm gun mount, anti-aircraft artillery, a rocket launcher and torpedoes, and can also carry a Ka-27 (or Ka-31) carrier-based helicopter ).

https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14653525

Russians should take over motorsich asap.

limb wrote:Russians should take over motorsich asap.

They are not that relevant anymore. Just about every single thing has been import substituted and is in production in Russia.
There are only three products which haven't been import substituted yet. But will be soon with the PD-8, PD-12V, and VK-800 engines.
However denying their production to HATO members like Turkey is important.

lancelot wrote:

limb wrote:Russians should take over motorsich asap.

They are not that relevant anymore. Just about every single thing has been import substituted and is in production in Russia.
There are only three products which haven't been import substituted yet. But will be soon with the PD-8, PD-12V, and VK-800 engines.
However denying their production to HATO members like Turkey is important.

The Russians still haven't figured out how to produce the reduction gears of gas turbines. Also the Gorshkov's turbines are incompatible with the ones grigorovich uses.

limb wrote:The Russians still haven't figured out how to produce the reduction gears of gas turbines. Also the Gorshkov's turbines are incompatible with the ones grigorovich uses.

Russia can do maintenance on existing marine gas turbines. Or else how do you think they keep the Udaloys and Slavas running?
Would they have bothered upgrading the Udaloys this late in the game if they couldn't?

It is useless to build more Grigorovich frigates. Just increase the production rate of the Admiral Gorshkov frigates.
And there are reduction gears, the problem is the production rate is too low, because the idiots in the Navy decided to make the company which is doing the reduction gears for the Gorshkov make yet another different gear system for Project 20386. i.e. the Russian LCS. They should have just ordered them to focus on boosting production of the gears they already made.

That ship, Project 20386, is a pure abortion. Taking resource from the Admiral Gorshkov.

The Russian MIC was suing Zvezda last I heard. Has the bankruptcy of Zvezda already gone through or is it still ongoing? They need to get cracking on producing more engines and reduction gear. The only reason this is happening is because the manufacturer doesn't want to invest in increased production because the state as a customer is just too unreliable and can't come to make large production orders and keeps sending them payments in drip feed. I think they caused them to go bankrupt on purpose so they will join the state run MIC.

limb wrote:Russians should take over motorsich asap.

You mean zorya mashproekt in Nikolaev?

Motor sich is an aircraft engine manufacturer in Zaporozhye

Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

limb wrote:Russians should take over motorsich asap.

You mean zorya mashproekt in Nikolaev?

Motor sich is an aircraft engine manufacturer in Zaporozhye

Yes, I meant zorya mashproekt. Unfortunately the ukroshits have most likely mined the complex.
Regarding the grigoroviches, the extra turbines are needed for the kornilov.

lancelot wrote:

limb wrote:The Russians still haven't figured out how to produce the reduction gears of gas turbines. Also the Gorshkov's turbines are incompatible with the ones grigorovich uses.

Russia can do maintenance on existing marine gas turbines. Or else how do you think they keep the Udaloys and Slavas running?
Would they have bothered upgrading the Udaloys this late in the game if they couldn't?

It is useless to build more Grigorovich frigates. Just increase the production rate of the Admiral Gorshkov frigates.
And there are reduction gears, the problem is the production rate is too low, because the idiots in the Navy decided to make the company which is doing the reduction gears for the Gorshkov make yet another different gear system for Project 20386. i.e. the Russian LCS. They should have just ordered them to focus on boosting production of the gears they already made.

That ship, Project 20386, is a pure abortion. Taking resource from the Admiral Gorshkov.

The Russian MIC was suing Zvezda last I heard. Has the bankruptcy of Zvezda already gone through or is it still ongoing? They need to get cracking on producing more engines and reduction gear. The only reason this is happening is because the manufacturer doesn't want to invest in increased production because the state as a customer is just too unreliable and can't come to make large production orders and keeps sending them payments in drip feed. I think they caused them to go bankrupt on purpose so they will join the state run MIC.

Possibly 20386 was more like an experiment to try different things. If it is like that, No big issue.

Concerning the gears, zorya was able to cope with many different gears for various engines and had a lot of experience with them. No idea in what condition it is now, though... It will be discovered only after they free Nikolaev