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Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°826

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Rodion_Romanovic Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:15 pm

It was already discussed many times... without lengthy and costly modification is not possible to adapt the existing hull to the Gorshkov class powerplant. And it has no sense to modify the design to allow the new powerplant to be installed, because this will just turn them into smaller Gorshkov with outdated systems (in comparison to gorshov class) and they will not be cheap anymore.

It was a sensible idea not to invest money in producing all kind of outdated soviet stuff that Zorya Mashproekt was producing (concentrating instead on the projects needed for future ship classes), but that (unfortunately) meant that production of some of the older ship classes (mainly Krivak IV / Grigorovich and gepard class) could not be continued.

The simpler thing now would be to sell it to the Indians (only if they make a good offer)...
either completing directly in Kaliningrad or towing it to India and having the indians complete if they so prefer.

If the indians don't make a good offer... well Russia can still keep it mothballed until the Ukraine loses Nikolaev. Then they can complete it and sell it to Iran or Venezuela.

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George1

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Post n°827

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

George1 Tue Feb 16, 2021 8:17 pm

i would like to see the 6th hull to be completed for the BLS fleet

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SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°828

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:41 pm

George1 wrote:i would like to see the 6th hull to be completed for the BLS fleet

Well that ain't happening Russia isn't about to design an engine for one outdated frigate.

Unless Ukraine suddenly decides to supply the engine which isn't happening.

They are better off just looking for a buyer.

Tai Hai Chen

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Post n°829

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Tai Hai Chen Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:12 pm

George1 wrote:i would like to see the 6th hull to be completed for the BLS fleet

Admiral Grigorovitch is on par with Type 054A in terms of size, displacement, capability. With China and Russia transitioning to Type 054B and Gorshkov, I don't think it makes more sense to build more Admiral Grigorovitch.

Isos

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Post n°830

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:06 pm

Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
38 min
Yantar's Ilya Samarin said they have submitted proposals to the MoD on completing the Admiral Kornilov Project 11356 frigate. The Russian Navy was supposed to receive 6 Project 11356 frigates until Ukraine blocked deliveries of its gas turbine engines.

PapaDragon

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Post n°831

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

PapaDragon Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:35 pm

Isos wrote:Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
38 min
Yantar's Ilya Samarin said they have submitted proposals to the MoD on completing the Admiral Kornilov Project 11356 frigate. The Russian Navy was supposed to receive 6 Project 11356 frigates until Ukraine blocked deliveries of its gas turbine engines.

Jesus Christ, is this one frigate such a big deal?

It's barely an empty hull without superstructure

Just order more Gorshkovs, even with delayed engines it's still faster than this thing

Speaking of which why aren't they ordering more Gorshkovs?

Isos

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Post n°832

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:37 pm

Empty but it would be stupid to scrap it. It is a ship worth around 300 million dollars. That's certainly not nothing.

If they can finish it they better sell it. It is a ship better than 90% of their ships in service. Only Gorshkov, Kiriv and Slava are better.

Gorshkov will be ordered when they finish the first ones they started. Or maybe they are waiting to see the 4x UKSK variant to choose if they order Gorshkov M instead. They have time to wait.

franco

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Post n°833

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

franco Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:50 am

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
38 min
Yantar's Ilya Samarin said they have submitted proposals to the MoD on completing the Admiral Kornilov Project 11356 frigate. The Russian Navy was supposed to receive 6 Project 11356 frigates until Ukraine blocked deliveries of its gas turbine engines.

Jesus Christ, is this one frigate such a big deal?

It's barely an empty hull without superstructure

Just order more Gorshkovs, even with delayed engines it's still faster than this thing

Speaking of which why aren't they ordering more Gorshkovs?

They ordered another 6 making a total of 10.

franco

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Post n°834

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

franco Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:48 pm

IMO if they have an engine and a hull plus it is cost effective, then they should go ahead and finish it. If my memory serves me correctly, the 11356 wasn't much more then the 23080 and less then the 23085 in cost.

PapaDragon

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Post n°835

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

PapaDragon Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:48 pm

franco wrote:IMO if they have an engine and a hull plus it is cost effective, then they should go ahead and finish it. If my memory serves me correctly, the 11356 wasn't much more then the 23080 and less then the 23085 in cost.

The thing is that they don't have the engine

So unless someone swiped one out of the Ukraine I don't see how they can do it

And designing whole engine for a single ship is redundant

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°836

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:25 am

Pretty sure those orders are for India.

The 11356 is vastly inferior to the 22350, it makes no sense to order these when you have a better option already available.

unless they think they can modify the 22350 for the 11356, which sure they could by why bother.

GarryB

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Post n°837

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

GarryB Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:27 am

They already have several ships with that sort of engine don't they?

Wouldn't it make sense for them to make spare parts and repair kits for existing ships using this engine?

Having a couple of backup engines in case there are problems down the track could be worth while...

Do they ever actually achieve serial production of this sort of propulsion system or do they just make them one at a time... I am not familiar with how they are made.

I would think making an engine and building spare parts for the bits that commonly wear out as well as a few repair kits are different things, but if they are serious then being able to repair these engines themselves for themselves and for export customers using these engines means business for them and less business from the business partners that betrayed them and put them in this situation to start with.

The Russian navy currently has a tiny pool of new ships a large pool of obsolete old ships they only use because they don't have anything better and a couple of frankenstein upgraded old designs... in a sense the Talwar class are new build old designs, so while not as good as a brand new design they are certainly better than old ships.

The core problem with this class of ship is essentially every one Russia makes they are feeding and keeping alive the Ukrainian company that screwed them.

Sell off some new hulls and the existing hull to a foreign customer and then stop making the damn things and focus on new ships for the Russian navy.

medo

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Post n°838

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

medo Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:57 am

PapaDragon wrote:

franco wrote:IMO if they have an engine and a hull plus it is cost effective, then they should go ahead and finish it. If my memory serves me correctly, the 11356 wasn't much more then the 23080 and less then the 23085 in cost.

The thing is that they don't have the engine

So unless someone swiped one out of the Ukraine I don't see how they can do it

And designing whole engine for a single ship is redundant

AFAIK Russia produce their own engines for Grigorovitch frigates, but the first produced engines will go for Zubrs.

Isos

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Post n°839

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:38 am

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Pretty sure those orders are for India.

The 11356 is vastly inferior to the 22350, it makes no sense to order these when you have a better option already available.

unless they think they can modify the 22350 for the 11356, which sure they could by why bother.

India has ordered a licence to build them at home.

Grigorovitch my be inferior to Gorshkov but it is still a good ship. Better than all the other ships they have in service if we take out Gorshkov, kirov and Slava.

Rodion_Romanovic

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Post n°840

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Rodion_Romanovic Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:47 am

medo wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

franco wrote:IMO if they have an engine and a hull plus it is cost effective, then they should go ahead and finish it. If my memory serves me correctly, the 11356 wasn't much more then the 23080 and less then the 23085 in cost.

The thing is that they don't have the engine

So unless someone swiped one out of the Ukraine I don't see how they can do it

And designing whole engine for a single ship is redundant

AFAIK Russia produce their own engines for Grigorovitch frigates, but the first produced engines will go for Zubrs.

no the engine for zubrs are different ones.

The plan is for India to get 2 of them completed by Yantar shipyard and other 2 fully built in India. This ship could be sold in a separate negotiation, especially if India want to get as many ships as possible in a shorter timeframe.

SeigSoloyvov

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Post n°841

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

SeigSoloyvov Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:48 pm

Isos wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Pretty sure those orders are for India.

The 11356 is vastly inferior to the 22350, it makes no sense to order these when you have a better option already available.

unless they think they can modify the 22350 for the 11356, which sure they could by why bother.

India has ordered a licence to build them at home.

Grigorovitch my be inferior to Gorshkov but it is still a good ship. Better than all the other ships they have in service if we take out Gorshkov, kirov and Slava.

Sure if you wanna set the bar that low, its a subpar ship by today's standards no way around that

The_Observer

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Post n°842

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

The_Observer Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:44 am

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Pretty sure those orders are for India.

The 11356 is vastly inferior to the 22350, it makes no sense to order these when you have a better option already available.

unless they think they can modify the 22350 for the 11356, which sure they could by why bother.

India has ordered a licence to build them at home.

Grigorovitch my be inferior to Gorshkov but it is still a good ship. Better than all the other ships they have in service if we take out Gorshkov, kirov and Slava.

Sure if you wanna set the bar that low, its a subpar ship by today's standards no way around that

I wouldn't call it such a low bar, considering that there are only about 6 active ships in RuNavy that fall into that category.

Isos

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Post n°843

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:18 am

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Isos wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Pretty sure those orders are for India.

The 11356 is vastly inferior to the 22350, it makes no sense to order these when you have a better option already available.

unless they think they can modify the 22350 for the 11356, which sure they could by why bother.

India has ordered a licence to build them at home.

Grigorovitch my be inferior to Gorshkov but it is still a good ship. Better than all the other ships they have in service if we take out Gorshkov, kirov and Slava.

Sure if you wanna set the bar that low, its a subpar ship by today's standards no way around that

What standards exactly ?

Nato ships come with 16 AD missiles and 8 subsonic anti ship missiles.

This ship comes with 24 AD missiles and 8 multipurpose missiles.

It's a new and well designed ship. Yes Gorshkov is better but this one is ready, modern that would replace one of the old ships and increase number of modern ships that use UKSK.

There are only positive points to finish it.

They can even redisign it to replace shtill with redut, replace the radars and add another UKSK instead of the rbu and paket NK instead of 533mm torpedo.

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PapaDragon

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Post n°844

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

PapaDragon Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:16 am

Isos wrote:...It's a new and well designed ship. Yes Gorshkov is better but this one is ready, modern that would replace one of the old ships and increase number of modern ships that use UKSK.

There are only positive points to finish it....

No

Engines

The end

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Lurk83

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Post n°845

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Lurk83 Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:04 am

PapaDragon wrote:

No

Engines

The end

They desperately need more frigates so if they have an engine solution they should seriously consider finishing the boats. Ultimately though they need to look at starting gorshkov class production at a second ship yard asap.

owais.usmani

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Post n°846

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

owais.usmani Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:42 am

Lurk83 wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

No

Engines

The end

They desperately need more frigates so if they have an engine solution they should seriously consider finishing the boats. Ultimately though they need to look at starting gorshkov class production at a second ship yard asap.

If they had an engine solution these ships would have been completed and joined Russian navy long time ago.

And they would only start production of Goshkov class in other shipyards once they ramp up the production of its engines and turbines, otherwise they will quickly end up having lots of empty hulls occupying yard space waiting for engine delivery.

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Lurk83

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Post n°847

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Lurk83 Tue Feb 23, 2021 8:45 am

owais.usmani wrote:

If they had an engine solution these ships would have been completed and joined Russian navy long time ago.

And they would only start production of Goshkov class in other shipyards once they ramp up the production of its engines and turbines, otherwise they will quickly end up having lots of empty hulls occupying yard space waiting for engine delivery.

Makes sense. If that's the case they should sell the grigorovirch class hulls to India asap and let India source more engines from Ukraine, if they can even provide them.

Isos

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Post n°848

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:06 am

PapaDragon wrote:

Isos wrote:...It's a new and well designed ship. Yes Gorshkov is better but this one is ready, modern that would replace one of the old ships and increase number of modern ships that use UKSK.

There are only positive points to finish it....

No

Engines

The end

They proposed to finish it. So they have a solution for the engines.

And it's not the end because they won't scrap a ship they can sold 300 million $.

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owais.usmani

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Post n°849

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

owais.usmani Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 am

Isos wrote:
They proposed to finish it. So they have a solution for the engines.

The shipyard director asked the MOD that they can finish it quickly if MOD can arrange all the assets. Where did he say that they already have a engine available for it?
I am pretty sure some body in MOD would have replied to him "Hey a**hole, how many times we need to tell you, we ain't got no engine for that damn thing"

Isos wrote:And it's not the end because they won't scrap a ship they can sold 300 million $.

Only country that could be interested in buying that hull in India, and selling it to India would not be as easy as it seems. They would have to come up with a proposal which India agrees to. India is not exactly a scrap dealer.

Isos

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Post n°850

Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

Isos Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:21 am

Yeah the shipyard director has no idea what he is talking about. Hopefully they have memvers of this forum Rolling Eyes

.

India is not a scrap dealer ? It's not an old soviet ship but a fresh build frigate that India already operates. They could easily sell it to them. Just need to make a good offer reduce the price and sell them solething else with it for exemple another 6 mig-29UPG or some pantsir S1 at advantagous price.

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