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    Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:49 am

    Both Hermes and Pantsir use radio command guidance for the initial flight phase. The difference is that Pantsir uses radio command guidance all the way to impact with the target, while Hermes uses it to fly to the target area where its terminal guidance will find the target and get a lock and then guide itself into that target.

    The website mentions that with a more powerful booster the Hermes could be used to 100km ranges... I would assume it would fly a ballistic flight path to the target area and then perform a steep diving attack on the target in such a case... a bit like a BVR missile where it is fired to the estimated target area. It would be easier for a missile for ground targets because they move less.

    Remember with its warhead of nearly 30kgs it is not just for use against tanks and armoured vehicles, it can be used against all sorts of targets including radars and even enemy artillery.

    It seems both Missiles, Hermes and Pantsir use radio guidance, Hermes partially, could make both missiles useable from both systems in optical mode with radio guidance.

    That could make Hermes cheaper, but it would become a line of sight only weapon. The reality is that the Pantsir missile is already such a line of sight weapon so if you wanted to use the missiles that way you could use the surface to air missile instead of the ATGM.

    This is good option for Pantsir, which defend S-300/400 in case if enemy ground unit succeed to come close to their positions. On the other hand Hermes could use Pantsir missiles as cheaper missile in self defense against attacking planes.

    I would think the other way might be interesting... using MMW radar guided and IR guided Hermes missiles against aerial targets in a swarm aerial attack as fire and forget missiles so they could handle more targets simultaneously.
    I would expect the Pantsir missile can be used against ground targets and Hermes could be used against aerial targets but each would be more effective against the targets they were designed to kill. Though a heavy target like a transport (ie AC-130U) or heavily armoured aircraft like an A-10 could warrant a 30Kg HE warhead of a Hermes to bring it down perhaps.

    Of course the issue with the ground Hermes system defending itself with Pantsir missiles is the lack of ground to air sensors like search radar. It will have the equivelent of the guidance radar because that is used to send the radio commands to manoeuvre the outgoing missile towards the target (in this case the target area).

    From the picture of Hermes you post, I have impression, that Hermes more looks like Grad MLRS, than ATGM like Kornet or Khrizantema. It could be positioned far behind front lines and fire missiles on enemy targets as other artillery batteries.

    If you look at the mockup on the KBP website they have two trucks, one with lots of missiles looking very much like a Grad launcher, but of course larger than 122mm calibre and of course with two stage terminally guided missiles. The other truck has an extending arm with the tracking radar antenna used to track targets and guide missiles with radio commands.

    The KBP website also mentions eventually using larger booster motors and one assumes lofted flight trajectories to achieve flight ranges of 100km. This would certainly mean huge potential for engaging enemy targets like artillery and even armour in rear staging areas, or enemy HQs.

    Maybe will Hermes be part of artillery units and work together with artillery recce system and CPs to engage targets and be connected with them with data links. Maybe in that case Hermes could also attack tanks from the top.

    It would certainly make sense to field these vehicles with artillery to take advantage of their recon assets to find targets quite deep in enemy territory. There is talk of extending the range of the 300mm Smerch rockets from 90km to 120-150km and they already use UAVs to find targets and for post attack damage assessment. Having guided missiles to hit critical point targets might mean supplementing the use of missiles like Tochka. Of course some targets need a heavier hammer than 30kgs so Tochka with its 500kg warhead will still be useful.

    These missile vehicles will be able to operate further back from the front line than Shturm vehicles and even Krisantema.
    I would think there will still be a need for Krisantema because it will be cheaper and able to operate with other tracked vehicles.

    I could see a Ka-52 operating 50km behind enemy lines finding targets and sending launch and target information back to a Hermes unit 20km behind friendly lines and observing the result of 5 or ten missiles falling down from the sky into the thin roof armour of the enemy tanks at supersonic speeds...
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    Post  medo Thu Dec 09, 2010 6:24 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP6OC1J8_Wo

    In this video is for short time seen CP for Pantsir. It is clearly seen, it could launch missiles on the move. I don't know, if the wheeled version could also fire guns on the move?
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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:26 am

    Nice vid, thanks for posting.

    Regarding firing on the move as far as I am aware the tracked and wheeled models could all fire their guns while moving, though accuracy is effected it is still possible.
    The problem was firing the missile while on the move because of the potential of damage to the missile as it leaves the launch tube.

    It seems they have solved these problems, though it was clearly firing from a fairly flat level piece of ground rather than the very rough cross country land it is seen driving over in the video.

    Operationally it might use missiles while driving in a convoy, but I think to improve accuracy it might pull over to the side of the road to fire its guns at targets.
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    Post  Austin Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:00 pm

    Nice video of Pantsir-S1

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    Post  Admin Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:13 pm

    Great find... I always love watching tracer ricochets.
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    Post  Austin Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:20 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:Great find... I always love watching tracer ricochets.

    Thanks , any reason why the 30mm bullet ricochet ?
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    Post  medo Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:11 am

    Pantsir's guns have very high rate of fire and a truck is not as stable as a tracked vehicle. But good stabilization for sure make Pantsir able to fire guns on the move when it is on a truck. Speed when system fire on the move is usually small, up to 20 km/h, but it is easier to get faster, when you are already driving, comparing when you have first to start moving and in air defense every second is important, when you have to avoid incoming bomb or missile, specially when system run out of missiles and gun rounds and have to fill them. Also in that way Pantsir could defend a convoy, when higher system like S-300/400 is on the move, changing positions.
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    Post  Admin Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:46 am

    Austin wrote:

    Thanks , any reason why the 30mm bullet ricochet ?

    Any bullet that doesn't have enough energy/density to plug where it lands will ricochet. Tracers have less density than the full rounds so they will bounce off just about anything. They often fall off before they get there.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:57 pm

    Sometimes also if the rounds hit hard things like rocks or even if they just hit at very shallow angles they can bounce off or even break up with the tracer component continuing to burn.

    I had some .22lr tracer rounds and they were neat fun. I especially liked to use them after it had rained at night because the wet ground reflected their light. Because the rounds were only .22lr they were only travelling at about the speed of sound.

    From the side they seemed to move fast and were just red lines of light, but from above and behind the rifle as you fired them because you could see their entire flight path they strangely seemed rather different.

    On a wet night they looked like golf ball sized balls of red light that floated away on a lazy curve with a patch of red refected glow on the ground below them as they travelled. Quite often when they hit the ground you'd see them suddenly bounce straight up in a line or streak.

    It was because they were heading away from me that they seemed so slow I guess.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:01 am

    I would expect no matter how good the stabilisation is that firing on the move with guns will always be an emergency option and that stopping and firing would be the preferred engagement method.

    If it did have to fire on the move I would expect longer bursts would compensate for the reduced accuracy.
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    Post  medo Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:17 am

    For Pantsir are guns the last line of defense be it stationary or on the move. But firing on the move is still good capability, that you do not need to actually stop the truck, if you don't have time or option in convoy, but just to slow down and fire and than go faster, specially if Pantsir in that time work passively and have to react quickly on given target. But usually Pantsirs will work stationary and then move to another position and than again work stationary, etc. Other story is for tracked version of Pantsir for ground units, which will more often work on the move and capability to fire on the move is a big + for them.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:32 pm

    Other story is for tracked version of Pantsir for ground units, which will more often work on the move and capability to fire on the move is a big + for them.

    The ability to fire and guide missiles on the move will make them much more effective because they will be more difficult targets and they can immediately fire on targets.
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    Post  Austin Thu Dec 30, 2010 8:29 am

    New Video on Pantsir

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    Post  IronsightSniper Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:14 pm

    Funny, I found that on youtube before I slept.
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    Post  medo Sat Feb 19, 2011 2:29 pm

    http://www.lenta.ru/news/2011/02/18/s300/

    Russian air defense units around Moscow will in two to three months get new Pantsirs, to operate together with S-400.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:16 am

    Interesting the number of sand coloured Pantsir-S1 systems there are... I remember comments for naysayers that most of the production Pantsirs were that colour because they were all going to the Middle East and the Russians weren't getting very many at all.

    Nice to see Russian sand coloured systems... Smile
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    Post  medo Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:29 pm

    To get back to Pantsir, any news about tracked version of Pantsir and if army air defense will buy them to replace older Tunguska. There is a silence for a longer time about tracked Pantsir and about Tor-M2U also.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:10 am

    You have a short memory... Laughing Razz

    You posted: http://www.redstar.ru/2011/02/22_02/2_02.html

    In the "Army will get no tanks in 2011" thread...

    It says in the 2011-2012 period what major purchases will be made and it includes these paragraphs:

    In addition, the air defense troops the Army will have upgraded the
    S-300V4, Buk-M2 and Buk-M3, anti-aircraft missile systems, short-range
    Tor-M2U (M), portable anti-aircraft missile complexes "Igla-S" and
    "Willow".

    I would suspect, though I have no evidence to back this up, that because they already have Tunguska in service and a new model entered production and service in 2003 ( http://kbptula.ru/eng/kbp/rusarmy.htm ) that the plans if I were making them would be that a Tunguska upgrade would be developed based on unifying the sensors of the new Pantsir with the existing Tunguska but leaving the missiles the same as they likely have lots in stock. The issue of missiles would depend on what production capacity I had for each type of missile (which is also used on Kashtan and Kashtan-M) and I would try to scale back production of the older shorter ranged missiles and convert that production capacity to the new types with older short range missiles in stocks gradually used up and replaced with newer longer range models.
    Assuming the article above is about new models it is all together possible that this upgrade might already have started.
    As these new SAMs are related to HERMES and the difference is that HERMES has a terminal homing seeker it would make a lot of sense to replace all the different existing types of SA-19 with the new missile compatible with HERMES so one missile can be made with different seeker options (including no seeker for the SAM). Obviously making MMW radar homing and IIR homing models as SAMs makes the low altitude penetrators job that much harder.

    Regarding the warhead they could use the same warhead in every missile. A powerful shaped charge warhead to penetrate 2m of RHA Steel should not be too hard as the warhead is almost 30kgs of HE. In addition to the large shaped charge the sides and rear can be covered in fragmentation material and rod penetrators can be positioned radially around the warhead to increase terminal effects around armoured targets and for soft targets like aircraft... the multi effect being controlled by the fusing. Detonating at the front of the warhead should result in a nice symmetrical fragmentation pattern but not great armour penetration. Detonating from the rear should result in fragmentation but also powerful armour penetration to the front.

    They could put two warheads separated by quite a distance with full calibre warheads of 15kgs each which would maximise the fragmentation and also act as a powerful precursor charge to defeat ERA.

    Lots of options there.
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    Post  medo Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:01 pm

    You have a short memory... Laughing Razz

    You posted: http://www.redstar.ru/2011/02/22_02/2_02.html

    In the "Army will get no tanks in 2011" thread...

    It says in the 2011-2012 period what major purchases will be made and it includes these paragraphs:

    My bad. I'm getting old. Embarassed

    It seems I mixed articles with the one with Tor-M2E which Belarus will buy.

    When the original Pantsir come in air force units, Russian army said, that their version of Pantsir need some improvements and that they will get them a year or two later. I think, after that time, a version for ground forces was never mentioned. Who knows what are those improvements and if this development is finished. It would be fine to see final configuration and how much it is different comparing with Pantsir for air force.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:26 am

    In many ways the in service Tunguska is probably already meeting the needs of the Army, though that roof mounted pod thing with EO stuff might be a useful addition, and maybe replace the existing search radar and tracking radar with the newer models and of course the electronics that go with that to improve multi target performance would be useful, but I doubt they would urgently want new 20km range missiles and would continue to use existing stocks of 10km range missiles as good enough.
    As I mentioned however from a pure producers perspective I would think only having to make two types of missiles (SAMs and HERMES) would make mass production cheaper and easier... for the Army, Air Force, and Navy... and export.
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    Post  Russian Patriot Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:36 am

    GarryB wrote:In many ways the in service Tunguska is probably already meeting the needs of the Army, though that roof mounted pod thing with EO stuff might be a useful addition, and maybe replace the existing search radar and tracking radar with the newer models and of course the electronics that go with that to improve multi target performance would be useful, but I doubt they would urgently want new 20km range missiles and would continue to use existing stocks of 10km range missiles as good enough.
    As I mentioned however from a pure producers perspective I would think only having to make two types of missiles (SAMs and HERMES) would make mass production cheaper and easier... for the Army, Air Force, and Navy... and export.


    Laughing The bold part made me laugh, considering our officials greed, they will make 50 types ( number out of my head for example)
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:58 am

    Pantsir is something I think that will be sold widely and will be very popular so I think maximising production capacity for its missiles will be very profitable.

    Selling the same missile for the Army, Air Force, and Navy model will just increase the required volume.

    HERMES on the other hand... I don't think Russia will be in a hurry to export them... especially as the main platforms would be the Ka-52, Mi-28N/M, and Su-25SM? The ground based systems seem to be truck based and mainly drawings so the focus seems to be on the air platforms... which would need to be purchased first.

    Right now I don't think the Russian armed forces has the ability to fully exploit the 15-20km range of these missiles let alone most of Russias export customers.
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    Post  medo Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:11 pm

    http://rian.ru/defense_safety/20110408/362374037.html

    More than 20 Pantsirs will be put on duty around Moscow in May after parade. I wonder if those 20+ Pantsirs are all new ones from this year or they included 10 Pantsirs, which air force got last year.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:27 pm

    I would expect those Pantsirs would be new... UAE ordered 50 systems and seem to have gotten them, so there is no issue with production of these systems at the moment.

    The air force seems to be losing its PVO component to a new air and space defence command being set up this year.
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    Post  Austin Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:57 am

    Can we expect the next version or what ever follows Pantsir will have a higher caliber gun from the current 30 mm round to say 57 mm anti-aircraft gun or some thing else ?

    Is the current 30 mm round on Pantsir an effective and accurate one for aircraft and cruise missile ?

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