Missiles got old, and it was nuke only. They only made sub 300 of them in any case, and prolonging the missile life was not seen as worthwhile.flamming_python wrote:Really? What lead to its demise?TR1 wrote:Kh-15 is gone gone gone.
+12
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16 posters
Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-06
- Post n°31
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
Stealthflanker- Posts : 1410
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Join date : 2009-08-04
Age : 36
Location : Indonesia
- Post n°32
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
so it's meet the same fate as the AGM-131 SRAM.TR1 wrote:Missiles got old, and it was nuke only. They only made sub 300 of them in any case, and prolonging the missile life was not seen as worthwhile.flamming_python wrote:Really? What lead to its demise?TR1 wrote:Kh-15 is gone gone gone.
dionis- Posts : 217
Points : 218
Join date : 2012-12-13
- Post n°33
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
260km range for the Uran is for some new version no doubt - any evidence these are deployed in the BSF? Can the ships even use them to their max range?TR1 wrote:Uran has 260km range, does Harpoon?dionis wrote:Eh? I mean for the Slava that's obvious, but the Kara/Kashin/Krivak class vessels carry the Uran at best (which isn't better than even the Harpoon). Then the others have the SS-N-14, which is crap.GarryB wrote:Even their tiniest Corvette will have a 30mm gatling gun answer to a subsonic Harpoon or Exocet. If Turkey could procure B-2s in sufficient number... say 1,000 of them then the Russian military will not have enough AAMs to shoot them all down and therefore some will make it to Moscow!The best on-board ASCM option is either the SM-39 or UGM-84 Harpoon. If Turkey can procure SM 29 and UGM 84 Harpoon in sufficient number there is very little that the RuAF can do.
Every Black Sea Fleet ship in the Russian Navy carries a better anti ship missile than the Exocet or Harpoon.
The BSF also has small rocket ships with Moskit.
Metel is no worse tactically than Exocet, and obviously is dual role.
And yes, Harpoon does have a quoted 278km range in the RGM-84F version. I suppose the question is, are these deployed in the Turkish fleet?
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-06
- Post n°34
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
Not some exotic new version- just the Russian produced one with the newer (post-Soviet) Russian engine. The old ones had Ukrainian engines, and will or already have run out of service life.
dionis- Posts : 217
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Join date : 2012-12-13
- Post n°35
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
The Kh-35U? That's a new development as far as I know.TR1 wrote:Not some exotic new version- just the Russian produced one with the newer (post-Soviet) Russian engine. The old ones had Ukrainian engines, and will or already have run out of service life.
And TMC still shows the 130KM version on their website.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-06
- Post n°36
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
Russia did a major strategic overhaul of its tactical missile engines, to prevent outside sources (Ukraine) from becoming an issue.
Any new missiles it buys, made by the Tactical Missile Corps use Russian engines, and hence would have improved range.
Range of course matters on launch platform, I haven't seen specifics as to Harpoon or Kh-35 range when launched from land vs say air.
But it is very unlikely they get 200 + KM when launched from ships.
Kh-35 is a newer design though, would not surprise me that it outranges Harpoon if we compare similar (vintage wise) versions.
Kh-35 used turbofan from the start, unlike Haproons solid fuel engine + turbojet.
Any new missiles it buys, made by the Tactical Missile Corps use Russian engines, and hence would have improved range.
Range of course matters on launch platform, I haven't seen specifics as to Harpoon or Kh-35 range when launched from land vs say air.
But it is very unlikely they get 200 + KM when launched from ships.
Kh-35 is a newer design though, would not surprise me that it outranges Harpoon if we compare similar (vintage wise) versions.
Kh-35 used turbofan from the start, unlike Haproons solid fuel engine + turbojet.
GarryB- Posts : 38978
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- Post n°37
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
Lack of a conventionally armed model.Really? What lead to its demise?
Its main trick was a mach 5 dive onto a target that was emitting radar energy... now they have Kh-32 which does a similar job (mach 4.5) over a much greater range and can use conventional and nuke armed versions with active and passive guidance... presumably including a much more accurate GLONASS guided alternative.
Export model?And TMC still shows the 130KM version on their website.
dionis- Posts : 217
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Join date : 2012-12-13
- Post n°38
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
It's all export models there.GarryB wrote:
Export model?And TMC still shows the 130KM version on their website.
MTCR does not apply to the Kh-35.
Kh-35E = 130KM
Kh-35UE = 260KM
I've seen no evidence whatsoever that there's any of the 260KM versions in service with the BSF.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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- Post n°39
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
The BSF has received coastal BAL complexes recently, and they are with the Russian engines Kh-35.
Chances are we won't get any "evidence" any time soon, but given how many times the BSF fires its Urans, you can bet within a few years any older stock missiles be expended.
Chances are we won't get any "evidence" any time soon, but given how many times the BSF fires its Urans, you can bet within a few years any older stock missiles be expended.
dionis- Posts : 217
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Join date : 2012-12-13
- Post n°40
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
Which ships even carry Uran? I'm counting more of the Metel than anything, not counting the Tarantul boats.TR1 wrote:The BSF has received coastal BAL complexes recently, and they are with the Russian engines Kh-35.
Chances are we won't get any "evidence" any time soon, but given how many times the BSF fires its Urans, you can bet within a few years any older stock missiles be expended.
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-06
- Post n°41
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
Not many, just Smetlivy (gonna be gone soon) and whatever new rocket/gunboats they get after Caspian gets its fill. Assuming Tatarstan doesn't drop by like it often does by Novorosiisk.
Mind you Metel itself is only employed by Kerch + Ladnyy + Pitlivvy, which will be gone around the same Smetlivy.
If anything the most common missile by pure tube count is much better than both Moskit.
That will change this decade as the UKSK ships become the majority by 2020.
Mind you Metel itself is only employed by Kerch + Ladnyy + Pitlivvy, which will be gone around the same Smetlivy.
If anything the most common missile by pure tube count is much better than both Moskit.
That will change this decade as the UKSK ships become the majority by 2020.
dionis- Posts : 217
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Join date : 2012-12-13
- Post n°42
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
Moskit range was always a little confusing.TR1 wrote:Not many, just Smetlivy (gonna be gone soon) and whatever new rocket/gunboats they get after Caspian gets its fill. Assuming Tatarstan doesn't drop by like it often does by Novorosiisk.
Mind you Metel itself is only employed by Kerch + Ladnyy + Pitlivvy, which will be gone around the same Smetlivy.
If anything the most common missile by pure tube count is much better than both Moskit.
That will change this decade as the UKSK ships become the majority by 2020.
Is the navy limited to 120KM range?
I know some variants have a high flight profile option with 240KM range..
TR1- Posts : 5435
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Join date : 2011-12-06
- Post n°43
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
Yeah it is a flight profile difference. Mind you when all these ( no matter the country) small missiles show amazing ranges it is usually air launched, Mach 1 + high altitude launch. Slow moving ship? Good luck getting that long range
Hell, Kh-31 PD range changes from like 20-30km max to over 240 in a lofted high alt/speed launch .
The Chinese navy got extended range variants, so naval based weapons are definitely not limited to 120km.
Hell, Kh-31 PD range changes from like 20-30km max to over 240 in a lofted high alt/speed launch .
The Chinese navy got extended range variants, so naval based weapons are definitely not limited to 120km.
Vann7- Posts : 5385
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Join date : 2012-05-16
- Post n°44
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
In the black sea , definitively Turkey but also all NATO navies combined if choose to suicide
1) The easiest safest and boring and most expensive way
Russia just launch a couple of hundred of Oniks ,Calibr from Sochi coast from very long ranges 700km
in the many hundreds until none NATO warship left.
2)The cheap way
Russia can just send 40 x sukhoi SU-27..(and a couple of MIg-31 with long range missiles to defeat awacs)
flying low to avoid detection with Kh-35 missiles. each one can carry 4 of them..
that is 40x4 = 160 antiship missiles. and launch them in salvo at near ~60km. 4 missiles against big warship and 2 against corvettes or patrol ships. Read somewhere that Aegis cannot engage planes or missiles flying very low beyond 50km.
Perhaps that explain why NATO depends heavily on their Navy Airforce and Awacs to defend their warships.
3) The elegant way..
Russia just send 30 Su-34s flying very low with its terrain following radar ,avoiding any detection until 40km-50km of their
warships and then launch at the same time in salvo 6 x kh-31 or 3 x calibr/brahmos missiles.Both supersonic . That is 30 x 6 =180 missiles or 30 x 3 =90 using Kalibr/brahmos.
In real practice navy vs navy will not happen in the black sea ,because they can use their Airforce. a plane cost a lot less than a warship and can escort and deliver missiles very close to their enemies. For sure Russia have a big military airport near the black sea with many combat jets carrying anti-ship missiles.
1) The easiest safest and boring and most expensive way
Russia just launch a couple of hundred of Oniks ,Calibr from Sochi coast from very long ranges 700km
in the many hundreds until none NATO warship left.
2)The cheap way
Russia can just send 40 x sukhoi SU-27..(and a couple of MIg-31 with long range missiles to defeat awacs)
flying low to avoid detection with Kh-35 missiles. each one can carry 4 of them..
that is 40x4 = 160 antiship missiles. and launch them in salvo at near ~60km. 4 missiles against big warship and 2 against corvettes or patrol ships. Read somewhere that Aegis cannot engage planes or missiles flying very low beyond 50km.
Perhaps that explain why NATO depends heavily on their Navy Airforce and Awacs to defend their warships.
3) The elegant way..
Russia just send 30 Su-34s flying very low with its terrain following radar ,avoiding any detection until 40km-50km of their
warships and then launch at the same time in salvo 6 x kh-31 or 3 x calibr/brahmos missiles.Both supersonic . That is 30 x 6 =180 missiles or 30 x 3 =90 using Kalibr/brahmos.
In real practice navy vs navy will not happen in the black sea ,because they can use their Airforce. a plane cost a lot less than a warship and can escort and deliver missiles very close to their enemies. For sure Russia have a big military airport near the black sea with many combat jets carrying anti-ship missiles.
runaway- Posts : 417
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Join date : 2010-11-12
Location : Sweden
- Post n°45
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
There is something called submarines.Vann7 wrote:
In real practice navy vs navy will not happen in the black sea ,because they can use their Airforce. a plane cost a lot less than a warship and can escort and deliver missiles very close to their enemies. For sure Russia have a big military airport near the black sea with many combat jets carrying anti-ship missiles.
Also i doubt the airforce can go in and sink ships uncontested, for sure they will have much other things at hand in a big war. It can be skirmishes not all out war. Displaying your ships in hotspots and using them in limited actions, like south Ossetia is very useful.
No one really knows how a modern naval war will look like, nearest is Falklands and thats 30 years ago...
I dont think eternal peace has come to the Black sea area, naval engagements is bound to happen sooner or later.
nastle77- Posts : 229
Points : 307
Join date : 2015-07-25
- Post n°46
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
This would have been an interesting scenario if set in the 80s with the SOviet black sea fleet vs Turkish fleet
any thoughts on that by the original poster ? In the 80s a possible few changes
1-Turks have 50 or so F-16 and the Soviets have very few Mig-29s but mostly Mig-23
2-Black sea fleet has ships equipped with SSN-2 Styx and SSN-3b/c missile ships which are inferior to the Harpoon ( which I assume equipped Turkish ships in the 80s?)
3-How big is the Turkish sub fleet in 80s ?
4-The AV MF had backfires in the pacific fleet but in the black sea fleet they had mostly Badger G and Bear G I'm assuming ?
any thoughts on that by the original poster ? In the 80s a possible few changes
1-Turks have 50 or so F-16 and the Soviets have very few Mig-29s but mostly Mig-23
2-Black sea fleet has ships equipped with SSN-2 Styx and SSN-3b/c missile ships which are inferior to the Harpoon ( which I assume equipped Turkish ships in the 80s?)
3-How big is the Turkish sub fleet in 80s ?
4-The AV MF had backfires in the pacific fleet but in the black sea fleet they had mostly Badger G and Bear G I'm assuming ?
Navy fanboy- Posts : 44
Points : 53
Join date : 2022-02-09
Age : 27
Location : New Zealand
- Post n°47
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
We can change this whole scenario again aswell
Modified Nakhimov vs Turkish fleet
Modified Nakhimov vs Turkish fleet
andalusia- Posts : 728
Points : 790
Join date : 2013-10-01
- Post n°48
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
Just saw this on the internet about Turkish submarines, I want to know should Russia be concerned?
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/01/analysis-why-do-turkeys-upcoming-reis-class-submarines-have-potential-to-affect-balances-in-the-region/
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/01/analysis-why-do-turkeys-upcoming-reis-class-submarines-have-potential-to-affect-balances-in-the-region/
lancelot- Posts : 2694
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Join date : 2020-10-18
- Post n°49
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
It will make a difference. But I suspect the Turks are buying these submarines more to have parity with the Greek navy than to confront Russia. At least at this time.
Yugo90 likes this post
GarryB- Posts : 38978
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- Post n°50
Re: Black Sea Fleet vs Turkish Navy
The Russians are very capable in terms of anti sub warfare, considering the way Turkey is acting recently I would not be that concerned... they seem very reasonable and sensible at the moment.... unlike the rest of the west.
magnumcromagnon likes this post
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