T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=779&p=2

Good photos of T-72B1/3 in service. Just scroll through the thread!

TR1 wrote:http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=779&p=2

Good photos of T-72B1/3 in service. Just scroll through the thread!

I still can't get used to the weird ERA placements on this tank.  

AlfaT8 wrote:

TR1 wrote:http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=779&p=2

Good photos of T-72B1/3 in service. Just scroll through the thread!

I still can't get used to the weird ERA placements on this tank.  

Yeah its weird, other stupid thing is the non-automatic sight cover.

Good summary of T-72B3 upgrade:
-overhaul of T-72B or B1
-new autoloader(for "Svinets" APFSDS)
-new 125mm 2A46M5 gun
-new FCS, and new gunner main sight "Sosna-U"(same sight on T-90MS) 1A40 used as a backup
-new radiostation R-168-25U-2
-commander sight TKN-3MK with "duplication" mode

T-72B4 as we know will add the commanders panoramic sight (same as T-90MS) as well as battle management systems.

About 30 (31?) T-72B3 bacth sent to southern MD

http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/44627/

I think we had that picture posted here already about T-72B3?!?

Yeah that is an older pic, not the exact same T-72B3s.

http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9759/94845085.d6/0_a8977_d6e8063d_XL.jpg

http://www.itar-tass.com/politika/825084

The Ground Forces received more than 250 T-72B3 tanks in 2013.

I have to say, it is not a bad figure, at all.
Now if they would work out the last kinks of the B3....without increasing price too much...well we will see with B4 next year.

TR1 wrote:http://www.itar-tass.com/politika/825084

The Ground Forces received more than 250 T-72B3 tanks in 2013.

I have to say, it is not a bad figure, at all. 
Now if they would work out the last kinks of the B3....without increasing price too much...well we will see with B4 next year.

Excellent. Thats more than I thought.

But look at this:

Land Forces of the Russian Federation to the end of the year will receive an additional 20 T-72BZ

20 more T-72BZ ??? what is this?

Bad translation, but 20 more B3 yeah.

Hmmm, 270 seems really high considering the kind of contracts I saw UVZ looking at several years ago (330 tanks over 3 years or something).
Maybe it includes missed deliveries from 2012, who know.
Some overhauled T-72Bs were delivered to units operating T-80B, but they were not fully upgraded to B3 standard. I have a feeling the Colonel included these in the numbers...but I could be wrong.

Will be very intersting to see how many follow up next year.

I need to add up all T-72B1, B3, BA numbers one of these days.

Good news, I also hope they will modernize part of their T-72 to BMPT-72.

When you read too much of this stuff, you forget what you even posted earlier

http://twower.livejournal.com/797603.html#comments

Found this again:
So first contract was in 2011 was for 170 T-72B1 modernizations.
In 2012 another contract warded for 360 modernizations (all B3, maybe?) by 2015.

The timescale is confusing, I guess it is feasible that many were done this year....looks like they are hurrying T-80s into the reserve by taking out T-72s from reserve and capitalizing or modernizing them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnoZwKBfC8w

New T-72B3 in the 20th Army of the Western Military District.

100 T-72B3 is transfered to Russian Army today        thus finishing state defense order for 2013.

2013 state defense order for the supply of T-72B3 is made



So 1100 modernized T-72 tanks up to now   

"To enhance the combat potential of the combined arms formations and units of the Land Forces troops re-completed with T-80 tanks T-72. To this end, the troops were delivered more than 1,100 T-72 tanks, including after extensive modernization, which increased share of modern machines tank park "- said Bulgakov.


- latest generation of communication tools
- latest fire control system
- digital ballistic computer
- Thermal channel 
- 400 officers retrained

and here is excellent summary of T-72B3 by TR1 LINK

Viktor, there is no way that number is modernized T-72s.

They are including basically "kapremont"ed T-72s that they took from reserves, and used to replace T-80s in service (RIP sweet prince). And yes, in some units that is essentially a downgrade...

The upgraded numbers are still around what we estimated before, this is just Mod and reporters confusing everyone.

However if that figure is anywhere near reality (could be, they started en masse several years ago) then the T-80s future in Russia is numbered indeed.

Tnx for clarification TR1.  

Sorry but the replacement of T-80s with upgraded T-72s is not a downgrade.

The autoloader of the T-80 is fundamentally flawed and despite better armour with the new communications/thermals/guns and ammo/battle management systems the upgraded T-72s will have longer sight, better communications and better hitting power and at the same time will be much safer for the crew.

hmm, why dont they just refit the tanks with T-72 autoloader? afaik t-80 hull is slightly wider than t-72/90 hull.

The T-64/80 might look similar to the T-72/90 but they have completely different components.

Why spend money on the T-80 to make it more like a T-90 when you have lots of left over T-72s that are compatible with most of the upgrades applied to make the T-90?

GarryB wrote:Sorry but the replacement of T-80s with upgraded T-72s is not a downgrade.

The autoloader of the T-80 is fundamentally flawed and despite better armour with the new communications/thermals/guns and ammo/battle management systems the upgraded T-72s will have longer sight, better communications and better hitting power and at the same time will be much safer for the crew.

It is more vulnerable in an urban scenario yes, but that is not to say the T-72 is proof from side penetrations detonating carousel either.
Just less likely due to lower profile, and the bigger wheels (compared to T-80) covering up the hull sides.

Mind you most tank units in Russia are not supposed to do urban combat anyways. Hell we could make an argument the new K-5 armored T-72B3s are worse for urban combat than good old T-72B due to the better all around K-1 coverage! The T-80s autoloader is a bit faster loading as well, an advantage in tank-vs-tank combat.

Regarding downgrade, Kapremonted T-72 does not offer everything a T-80 does. Remember, I am not talking about B3, but simply overhauled T-72Bs.
Most notable downgrade:
1.) Fire control. T-80 has a system, T-72 basically does not aside from rangefinder.
2.) Mobility. To make situation worse supposedly some T-80s received GTD-1250 upgrade, the disparity obviously becomes even worse. I am not even going to talk about the T-80U conversions that were made until recently (T-80U turret on top of T-80B hull).

Obviously the T-80 will have higher fuel consumption, but that is the price you pay for such a drag racer of a tank.

The T-72B3 does have the obvious advantage of K-5, new gun + ammo, Sosna-U, but mobility wise it has nothing on the T-80.

collegeboy16 wrote:hmm, why dont they just refit the tanks with T-72 autoloader? afaik t-80 hull is slightly wider than t-72/90 hull.

MOD wants to get rid of T-80s, due to rejection of gas turbine.

OK here is a Zvezda video , 100 or more T-72B3 being delivered to West MD

http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201312191000-2zid.htm

Images

It is more vulnerable in an urban scenario yes, but that is not to say the T-72 is proof from side penetrations detonating carousel either.

Combat experience shows lower side hits are rare and hits to the turret are much more likely... any penetration of the turret from any angle showers hot burning sparks onto armour plate in a T-72 or t-90, but directly onto propellent impregnated cardboard in the T-80...

The T-80s autoloader is a bit faster loading as well, an advantage in tank-vs-tank combat.

The upgraded T-72s will have new guns with new design autoloaders... we don't know how fast they operate but we can assume they are rather more powerful.

Regarding downgrade, Kapremonted T-72 does not offer everything a T-80 does. Remember, I am not talking about B3, but simply overhauled T-72Bs.

The point of choosing the T-72s over the T-80s is so that the B3 upgrade can be properly applied to them fairly soon if not right away.

Fire control. T-80 has a system, T-72 basically does not aside from rangefinder.

With the upgrade the T-72s will have better FCS and thermals than the T-80s had.

Obviously the T-80 will have higher fuel consumption, but that is the price you pay for such a drag racer of a tank.

The T-72B3 does have the obvious advantage of K-5, new gun + ammo, Sosna-U, but mobility wise it has nothing on the T-80.

The T-72 doesn't have bad mobility and the cost in terms of fuel consumption and enormous IR signature are very undesirable... the IR plume of a gas turbine is impossible to mask.

MOD wants to get rid of T-80s, due to rejection of gas turbine.

And to have one tank family in service.

GarryB wrote:

The upgraded T-72s will have new guns with new design autoloaders... we don't know how fast they operate but we can assume they are rather more powerful.

They allow for longer rounds, but I have seen nothing to suggest they are any faster in operation. But most of the T-80s are replaced by nonupgraded T-72s, so they don't even have that going.

The point of choosing the T-72s over the T-80s is so that the B3 upgrade can be properly applied to them fairly soon if not right away.

That is assuming they all even get T-72B3 upgrade...this is over 1 thousand tanks we are talking about. To put it mildly I am not holding my breath for all of them to be upgraded, and in any case it will take several years. Until then, its a downgrade.

With the upgrade the T-72s will have better FCS and thermals than the T-80s had.

Well yeah T-80B did not have any thermals, but we are back to the non-upgraded vs B3 circle. Given how big the T-72 fleet is now (with the replacement of ANOTHER 1000+ tanks by the T-72, not including the well over 1000-1500 T-72s already in service I don't think the prospects are exactly inspiring. Plus let's not forget B3 includes a major kapremont, so they won't be sending back T-72Bs that have been recently overhauled into upgrading at least until the service life runs out again.

The T-72 doesn't have bad mobility and the cost in terms of fuel consumption and enormous IR signature are very undesirable... the IR plume of a gas turbine is impossible to mask.

T-72B is considered a bit underpowered by the army, the difference is pretty substantial when compared to the T-80. B3 does nothing to improve this this MOD cheaped out on the engine.

And to have one tank family in service.

Absolutely, but I think this is a backwards step. T-80 has spares all over Russia, and training facilities as well, they could easily have been kept in service till both it and the 72 are replaced by new tanks. There are a number of excellent T-80 upgrades as well that the MOD shelved. I don't think the units exchanging their T-80s for T-72Bs are going to be too happy about it.

10 characters.

They allow for longer rounds, but I have seen nothing to suggest they are any faster in operation.

Better penetration is more useful than high rate of fire. The difference in rate of fire is not that big anyway... we are not talking about a rifle where suppressive fire could be used. The practical rate of fire where a target is located, ammo type selected and loaded and then fire opened till the target is confirmed killed by the gunner while the commander looks for other threats and targets would be not comparable to max mechanical rate of fire.

But most of the T-80s are replaced by nonupgraded T-72s, so they don't even have that going.

T-80s were deployed to fairly important units... I rather doubt they will want such units equipped with old T-72s will old radios and no thermals... they will want to practise night fighting and net centric communications and use of battle management systems so they will need to be upgraded soon enough.

Needless to say they are changing to T-72s because they can be upgraded when needed, unlike the T-80s which might need less of an upgrade but have a dead end development path.

That is assuming they all even get T-72B3 upgrade...this is over 1 thousand tanks we are talking about. To put it mildly I am not holding my breath for all of them to be upgraded, and in any case it will take several years. Until then, its a downgrade.

The Purpose of the B3 upgrade was that it was relatively cheap and simple yet provides the basics they need... ie night vision, new comms, net centricity, new gun for new ammo. If they were going to replace them with the T-90AM then I would agree with years, but if it does take years for this simple upgrade then someone has made a mistake.

(with the replacement of ANOTHER 1000+ tanks by the T-72, not including the well over 1000-1500 T-72s already in service I don't think the prospects are exactly inspiring.

Like I said.. B3 was chosen because it was the cheap and simple option to upgrade the fleet as rapidly as possible... do we assume that is no longer the case because the T-80s are going to be replaced permaturely?

Perhaps it is because the other upgrades have gone so quickly they have decided they can rapidly upgrade more T-72s and remove the extra different vehicles from the vehicle pool earlier?

T-72B is considered a bit underpowered by the army, the difference is pretty substantial when compared to the T-80. B3 does nothing to improve this this MOD cheaped out on the engine.

Not replacing the engine makes it cheaper and quicker to implement the upgrade now. Later on a new engine can be introduced to replace the old models... new thermals, new comms, new gun, new ammo make rather more sense to me than a whole new engine and new drive train to take that extra power.

Absolutely, but I think this is a backwards step. T-80 has spares all over Russia, and training facilities as well, they could easily have been kept in service till both it and the 72 are replaced by new tanks. There are a number of excellent T-80 upgrades as well that the MOD shelved. I don't think the units exchanging their T-80s for T-72Bs are going to be too happy about it.

I like the T-80 too, but as you point out separate spares and support and training equipment is kept for a tank that might be superior to old model T-72s but not upgraded ones and are inferior to new model T-90s. They can't afford to keep every tank type in service just because it works. There are likely lots of upgrades for the T-80, but at the end of the day the T-90AM is the same size and superior performance.

It is a bit like the Su-27 vs Mig-29, except with a Mig-29 that is in the same size and weight class as the Su-27.

The Mig-29M is a capable design but not as good as the Su-35 will be... if the Mig-35 was the same size as the Su-35 then there would be no point... keep in mind that just like those planes each weapons platform has their own contractors and parts companies... the T-80 uses optics and engines and equipment from one group of companies (that will rely on this work), while the T-72/90 family have different companies supplying different engines and optics and systems. Dropping the T-80 means those companies need to be absorbed by the T-72/90 companies or they need to develop new products for different platforms that will be adopted.

(Plus you know I am a fan of the Mig-29 family too).