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T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

George1

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Post n°526

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

George1 on Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:19 am

Tanks T-72B3 in the Kaliningrad region

A photo report published by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation under the heading “Teachings of Baltic Fleet Tankers” from the exercises of the 11th separate tank regiment of the 11th Army Corps of the Baltic Fleet deployed in Gusev, Kaliningrad Region, formed in 2018. The regiment is equipped with modernized T-72B3 tanks and BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicles delivered to the Kaliningrad Region.

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3768702.html

Cyberspec

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Post n°527

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Cyberspec on Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:33 am

Strange ERA set up on a T-72B...K-1 added to K-5

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franco

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Post n°528

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

franco on Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:53 pm

As per this article, it takes 9 months to rebuild the T-72B3. The old T-72B's are completely disassembled and then totally rebuilt.

https://altyn73.livejournal.com/1413249.html#cutid1

The-thing-next-door

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Post n°529

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

The-thing-next-door on Sat Nov 16, 2019 10:14 am

T72B3 with Arena system

http://otvaga2004.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=152&p=15

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Isos

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Post n°530

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Isos on Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:13 am

Did they improve the reverse speed of the last variants like B3M ? The first variants were very slow.

Hole

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Post n°531

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Hole on Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:06 pm

Because they only have one reverse gear. Western tanks have more. Cowards. Very Happy

Isos

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Post n°532

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Isos on Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:23 pm

Hole wrote:Because they only have one reverse gear. Western tanks have more. Cowards.

They have new engines so I supposed they worked on that. 7 km/h in reverse can be dangerous because once it fired it needs to go back into cover. I'm not saying they need to copy the western tanks but increase to a decent speed like 20km/h.

GarryB

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Post n°533

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

GarryB on Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:03 am

It is nothing to do with the engine, it is the transmission and gearing that determines speed in each gear depending on the torque capacity of the engine and the gear ratios and transmission.

BTW the Panther had a vastly more sophisticated transmission than a T-34 which was also why when they were first used they lost more to breakdowns than they did to enemy action.

Having the better transmission didn't really improve its performance and led to a lot of unnecessary loses and problems in battlefield use.

George1

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Post n°534

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

George1 on Sun Nov 17, 2019 1:41 pm

Tank T-72B3 with a complex of active protection T09-06

An interesting shot of the T-72B3 tank equipped with the T09-06 active defense complex (Arena-M). Presumably, this is a prototype of the T-72B3 tank with the T09-06 active defense system, which is currently undergoing proving tests.

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The prototype of the T-72B3 tank with the active protection complex T09-06 (Arena-M) (c) einsatz_nt (via "Military Informant" / vk.com/milinfolive)

Recall that a demonstrator of the modernized T-72B3 tank, equipped with the prototype APS Arena-M, was demonstrated at RAE exhibitions in Nizhny Tagil in 2013 and 2015.

In January 2017, the TASS news agency reported with reference to a statement by the general designer of JSC Scientific and Production Corporation Engineering Design Bureau of Engineering (KBM, Kolomna). Valery Kashin, that the new Arena-M active defense complex (KAZ) will be installed on T-72 and T-90 tanks and that “the active defense complex is currently undergoing tests, which are being monitored by Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces Colonel-General Oleg Salyukov ". It was pointed out that KAZ Arena-M is a system installed on a combat vehicle, which includes a multifunctional radar station with high noise immunity, detecting targets. The shells are struck by protective ammunition of narrowly targeted action, located along the perimeter of the tank tower in special installation mines. "

In June 2018, a notice on the purchase of JSC Ural Design Bureau of Transport Engineering (UKBTM, as part of NPK Uralvagonzavod JSC) from a single supplier (apparently KBM) of elements worth 5 million rubles for the modernization of the T tank was posted on the government procurement website -72B3 by installing a KAZ of type T09-A6 to secure state contract No. 1719187317821452241002092 of December 27, 2017 under the development and development OK-Improvement A as part of the State Defense Order.

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Demonstrator of the modernized T-72B3 tank, equipped with a prototype APS Arena-M, in the exposition of the RAE-2015 exhibition in Nizhny Tagil in 2015 (c) Alexey Khlopotov. / Gurkhan.blogspot.com

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3839517.html

calripson

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Post n°535

Arena and Javelin

calripson on Sun Nov 17, 2019 4:38 pm

One would hope they designed this system to be effective against top attack weapons like Javelin and that the intercept distance is sufficient to prevent damage to the tank. The US has already provide hundreds of Javelins to Ukraine.

magnumcromagnon

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Post n°536

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

magnumcromagnon on Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:23 am

calripson wrote:One would hope they designed this system to be effective against top attack weapons like Javelin and that the intercept distance is sufficient to prevent damage to the tank. The US has already provide hundreds of Javelins to Ukraine.

Javelin isn't what its cracked up to be. It struggles with background thermal radiation of the landscape, and it couldn't dream of being able to pierce through the PPS (lazer dazzler + smoke grenades). It's also a grotesquely overpriced ATGM with overall across-the-board inferior cardinal characteristics compared to Metis-M (a vastly cheaper system).

flamming_python

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Post n°537

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

flamming_python on Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:12 am

Why would they have hard-kill systems on the T-72B3, but not T-80BVM or T-90M

GarryB

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Post n°538

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

GarryB on Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:04 am

This seems to be a much better set up than the first model with that radar tower arrangement... it looks like those munitions are designed to cover a rather wide area each so there are probably only a dozen munitions fitted there with a bit of overlap.

The original ARENA launched munitions up in to the air into the path of an incoming missile with the fragments directed down in to the ground to prevent damage to friendly forces nearby with stray fragments.

I see no reason why the munitions could not be designed to launch fragments directly up as well as directly down to engage top attack weapons as well as direct fire weapons too, but against weapons using IIR seekers I would suspect some sort of laser based optics damaging system makes more sense than hard kill munitions...

And these systems are going on to Russian tanks, not Ukrainian tanks so the Ukrainian Javelins really don't matter in this regard.... I am sure a few Ukrainian soldiers will make money selling these missiles to the Ukrainian rebels and I suspect that Russian intell would be interested in a few copies... perhaps a trade deal with the Ukrainian rebels... 100 Metis M1 missiles for each Javelin... the Metis missiles will be vastly more useful to the rebels and I think the Russians might like another look at those Javelins... but I suspect they have had opportunities to look in the past...

Why would they have hard-kill systems on the T-72B3, but not T-80BVM or T-90M

Perhaps it makes more sense to have hard kill systems on the numbers tank?

Or perhaps this is the cheaper less capable option for the numbers tank and the better models might have simplified variants of the systems going on Armata and Kurganets and Boomerang.

Of course putting it in to service and mass production should iron out any bugs and make it perhaps cheaper to produce and use.

It is often during mass production that shortcuts are found to simplify production and make the product more affordable and more capable.

calripson

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Post n°539

Active Protection

calripson on Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:22 pm

magnumcromagnon wrote:

calripson wrote:One would hope they designed this system to be effective against top attack weapons like Javelin and that the intercept distance is sufficient to prevent damage to the tank. The US has already provide hundreds of Javelins to Ukraine.

Javelin isn't what its cracked up to be. It struggles with background thermal radiation of the landscape, and it couldn't dream of being able to pierce through the PPS (lazer dazzler + smoke grenades). It's also a grotesquely overpriced ATGM with overall across-the-board inferior cardinal characteristics compared to Metis-M (a vastly cheaper system).

Trust me, if you are poor SOB in that tank or armored vehicle, you will wish you had an effective active protection system.

magnumcromagnon

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Post n°540

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

magnumcromagnon on Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:06 pm

calripson wrote:

magnumcromagnon wrote:

calripson wrote:One would hope they designed this system to be effective against top attack weapons like Javelin and that the intercept distance is sufficient to prevent damage to the tank. The US has already provide hundreds of Javelins to Ukraine.

Javelin isn't what its cracked up to be. It struggles with background thermal radiation of the landscape, and it couldn't dream of being able to pierce through the PPS (lazer dazzler + smoke grenades). It's also a grotesquely overpriced ATGM with overall across-the-board inferior cardinal characteristics compared to Metis-M (a vastly cheaper system).

Trust me, if you are poor SOB in that tank or armored vehicle, you will wish you had an effective active protection system.

You aren't even addressing the flaws of the Javelin ATGM. It couldn't even dream of penetrating a PPS system, the optical seeker gets confused with background thermal radiation, and it's several times more expensive and but also less capable (in several ways) than Metis-M.

Isos

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Post n°541

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Isos on Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:48 pm

Optical guided top attack ATGM like french MMP won't be confused by anything and the only way to defeat them is hard kill systems. Javelin isn't the main atgm out there but export version of russians systems, Tow missiles, french ones and serbian too. From the side or rear any tank will get destroyed like we saw in Syria.

Arena should have been installed on all t-90 from the begining.

magnumcromagnon

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Post n°542

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

magnumcromagnon on Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:54 pm

Isos wrote:Optical guided top attack ATGM like french MMP won't be confused by anything and the only way to defeat them is hard kill systems. Javelin isn't the main atgm out there but export version of russians systems, Tow missiles, french ones and serbian too. From the side or rear any tank will get destroyed like we saw in Syria.

Arena should have been installed on all t-90 from the begining.

Predictably (like usual) your grotesquely misinformed:

1.) The Russian smoke grenades are made up of microscopic aluminum-silicate spheres, that completely blocks the radiation of the whole electro-magnetic spectrum, and it's utterly useless to deploy IR seekers against it.

2.) This electro-magnetic obscuring smoke has been so successful that other branches of the Russian military has adopted it. The engineering troops of have a dedicated smoke generating machine to mask the presences of bases and equipment from IR/Radar seekers of PGM's. The ground portion of the Strategic Forces Triad also incorporates a similar machine to mask the presence of ground mobile ICBM's, and even the Topol-M warheads have a electro-magnetic opaque aerosol dispersal system built in to them.

3.) AFV PPS works on the similar basis of DIRCM's on aircraft. Here's the President-S DIRCM available for Russian aircraft:

Isos

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Post n°543

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Isos on Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:51 pm

You have no arguments but I will try to answer.

MMP is guided by the operator which sees from the inboard camera the tank from the top. It doesn't emmit any signal. Your first point is totally useless against such missiles as smoke grenades are launched far away from the tank and a top attack missile like MMP which doesn't lock on the tank won't be affected. It shows how informed you are. Rolling Eyes

Your 2nd point has nothing to do with the subjet.

DIRCM could blind the camera but it is not used on tanks.

Tanks won't know they are targeted by such missiles unless they have MAWS or radar from arena sytem.

Older missiles like tow or metis proved to be effective against syrian t-72 which also has smoke grenades ... but they ended up destroyed.

miketheterrible

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Post n°544

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

miketheterrible on Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:54 am

MMS is both infrared seeker and tv guided. So infrared is blocked that just leaves tv guided to work which is usually effective except for if smokescreen is deployed, it greatly reduces the missiles guidance since the Gunner may have trouble correcting flight path of missile since it relies on it.

Isos

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Post n°545

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Isos on Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:08 am

The missile is wire (optical fiber) connected to the launcher. There is no jamming possible. If it is launched at your tank and you have no APS you better leave it as fast as you can.

kvs

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Post n°546

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

kvs on Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:16 am

Recall that smoke no matter how good it is can be defeated by a human guided missile since the human can use intuition to
punch through the smoke to the where the target is likely to be. It is not 100% but infinitely better than dumb autonomous
missile guidance that fails if the conditions aren't right. In the future, AI maybe will give such guidance systems more effectiveness.

The vaunted Javelin is a US dick stroking delusion. To put on the same level as the Metis is simply ignorant. Those T-72s in
Syria were not being taken out by Javelins if they had the protection systems. The jihadis had Metis missiles and used them.

https://www.stalkerzone.org/the-javelin-rips-apart-the-t-72-the-attempt-at-deception-failed/

Yanqui fakers and their second rate wunderwaffen,.

GarryB

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Post n°547

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

GarryB on Tue Nov 19, 2019 1:46 am

DIRCM could blind the camera but it is not used on tanks.

What do you think SHTORA is?

Tanks won't know they are targeted by such missiles unless they have MAWS or radar from arena sytem.

In the late 1980s they had an optical system called PAPV or something similar, that detects optics and directs a laser beam to "defeat" the optics. Used against optic guided munitions and snipers using rifle scopes.

Older missiles like tow or metis proved to be effective against syrian t-72 which also has smoke grenades ... but they ended up destroyed.

Konkurs proved effective against Abrams and Leopard IIs too, what is your point?

Current model Hinds have thermal optics systems that give them a seamless view around the helicopter of targets and threats within 2km of the aircraft... something similar for tanks has probably been developed too... in addition to IR and radar screens like Nakidka...

The missile is wire (optical fiber) connected to the launcher. There is no jamming possible. If it is launched at your tank and you have no APS you better leave it as fast as you can.

Optical jammers are widely deployed in Russia including on their naval vessels, and on armoured vehicles in the 1990s we saw Shtora... with the advent of a lot of western missiles that use optical or thermal guidance do you think they suddenly stopped?

Isos

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Post n°548

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Isos on Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:45 am

What do you think SHTORA is?

Almost not used. And still not proven in combat.

Konkurs proved effective against Abrams and Leopard IIs too, what is your point?

Yes it is. Tanks needs APS against the atgm threats. But germans and US had no aps back when they made their tanks, russia had and didn't use it.

Optical jammers are widely deployed in Russia including on their naval vessels, and on armoured vehicles in the 1990s we saw Shtora

Shtora is used on t-90A. What similar system other vehicles have ?

Hole

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Post n°549

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Hole on Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:00 am

APS isn´t combat-proven either.

Isos

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Post n°550

Re: T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants

Isos on Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:23 am

Hole wrote:APS isn´t combat-proven either.

Yes it was used in Afghanistan by soviets increasing tanks survavibility and israeli trophy made Kornet missiles useless.

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T-72 ΜΒΤ modernisation and variants