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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40

    GarryB
    GarryB


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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:12 am

    I mean there are maps from when the Mongols ruled Large chucks of what is now Russia, so does that mean Russia should give the land back to Mongolia? Point is things change and comments like that serve no purpose at all and just just stupid

    But if you listen to the west the lines currently on maps are set in stone and cannot be moved... unless it is in their interests and then it is OK to move them and create new countries etc etc.

    All of which don't want to get exposed to toxic fumes.

    Who said it is toxic?

    On a battlefield you will have the air filled with burned powders from rifles and other weapons of all types and things burning giving off smoke and fumes... even the soldiers themselves will operate under the cover of smoke screens...

    Maybe there is an operating mode where you can keep the hatch shut in high risk areas and just drop the primer cap on the floor instead.

    The timing needed to drop a grenade into that small hatch that ejects stub metal shell cases would need to be world class... it does not remain open for long and is rather small.

    That extraction hatch opens automatically and closes in a sec. Drones are no issue, unless the Ukrainians drone operators are clairvoyant and genius-level physicists, as they'd have to foresee the gun firing and time the drop with the drone's current height, the fall speed of the munition etc in mind.

    Plus, as you could see on the video the shell stub is not ejected when the round is fired... it is ejected when the next round is loaded... which might be just after a shot is fired or it might not...

    Those drones with a higher weapons load look like they are in service. It's raining grenades on these hohols heads

    Clever... use a drone dropped grenade to make them scatter and then shower the area with grenade launcher rounds a couple of times to get some hits...

    You get smoke, the hatch has to stay open and some Ukrainian $1000 drone drops a grenade into your hatch.

    Wrong... they likely had the hatches open to improve visibility for the cameras by making the tank interior brighter and easier to see... normally in operational use the hatches would be closed so the smoke would not enter the turret so much because the air pressure in the turret would be higher as the air is coming in via the ventilation system... which has filters on it... for the same reason that in an NBC conflict the hatches would remain shut and the air filtered to prevent chem or bio weapons or radiation from the outside entering the tank...

    On the Abrams they have chosen to just drop on to the turret floor; not ideal either to sit in between spent primer caps stacking up on the floor.

    A human loader can aim the empty case at an empty gap on the floor or perhaps even put it in an empty storage space for ammo... it will be hot when it first comes out but that is why he will be wearing gloves...

    The full length brass case also seals the fumes and reduces the amount of fumes coming into the crew compartment.

    The main reason the 2A72 was developed was because the 2A42 filled the BMP-2 turret with fumes when fired at the highest rate of 500rpm.

    Hardly the end of the world... just fire at the lower rate.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:12 am

    Some interesting analysis -

    Both sides have moved to conserve ammo

    The sat images posted show that Russia is accumulating ammo , and Ukraine as well has lowered the usage of ammunition and moved to conservation regime

    The current situation seems like stalemate, but in reality Russia is sitting back waiting for Ukraine to make its move,  which of course based on Zelensky recent admission that losing Bakhmut would be a defeat, and that they must win in Bakhmut at all costs

    Russia is confident that it can sit back and let Ukraine make the first move

    What does Russia know?

    Currently the west is producing less than 100,000 shells per month... Ukraine is using 180,000 per month - 6000 shells per day , it will take the west years to reach 180,000+ per month capacity , activating Slovakia to boost production of 155mm

    Russia produces 300,000 shells per month , or 3.6 million per year , and is firing 10,000 shells per day, or the full capacity of production

    They can ramp up 2x, to 7.2 million (20,000 shells a day) - we saw Shoigu visit the Kirov and Chelyaninsk factories

    Despite this, is 10,000 shells vs 6000 shells or roughly 2 : 1 advantage enough to make advances on the front?

    Well to be short, No, even when Russia was firing 50,000 or 60,000 shells a day before Prigozhin began to complain of shortages (really a conscious decision to save ammo) - there was minor advances on the front

    So there is a belief, that Russian general Staff has concluded that the war will not be won on this game alone- in fact we see now KM-8 Gran 120mm semi active laser guided mortar being used to hit Ukrainian supply lines to Bakhmut

    The Malakhit automated artillery fire control system also has shown up, to queue Gran system for precise strikes

    By using precise weapons, Russia is able to expend less ammunition and achieve similar results- the Soviet grid based artillery fire system could utilize 200 shells for a target, which Kitolov or Gran could achieve in 2 hits

    We also see increasing use of glide bombs FAB with UMPC module - Yuri Ignat spokesman of Ukrainian AF confirms their use along with video in Avdeyevka and Kremenaya

    Where does this lead? Well Ukraine has about 5 army corps or 100,000 men, proven in vids of accumulation of armament, that will be thrown in a direction soon. Will it be Zaporozhye,  or bakhmut, or Kremennaya? Well we do not know

    What we do know, is Russia has 500,000 men concentrated along the border , and the VKS has UMPC FABS, and the army has other precise weapons just waiting for the Ukrainians to pop their heads out

    When they do there will be a slaughter - remember Kherson , where they went with 80,000 men, and did not win one victory on the front against a small garrison which was isolated by the river

    This kind of attack will fail, as the probes have failed - and when it does, Russia will spring forward - to where? Also unknown , but judging by Peskovs own admission that only a military solution can be applied to Ukraine

    It's safe to say, that the offensive is not a matter of if , but when

    And from what we can tell, as soon as the Ukrainians lose Bakhmut, they will be forced to make their move, so Russia will wait for them, as a chess master, sometimes it's better to go after, especially when you control the board

    Stay tuned

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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:30 am

    100k shells a month is only 3333 shells a day. 10000 vs 3333 is a massive difference. Plus ukraine is not getting all the production

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:36 am

    And from what we can tell, as soon as the Ukrainians lose Bakhmut, they will be forced to make their move, so Russia will wait for them, as a chess master, sometimes it's better to go after, especially when you control the board

    Controlling the air means you can also safely move forces to where they are most needed too, so local numbers and air power... and as mentioned on one of those videos the Russian air command has changed and has probably learned quite a bit from this conflict... it will be interesting to see how they perform moving forward.

    100k shells a month is only 3333 shells a day. 10000 vs 3333 is a massive difference. Plus ukraine is not getting all the production

    Plus their lines of logistics and storage of ammo near the front line for use is compromised by the people they have been shelling the last better part of 10 years... every ammo dump the Russians hit will cost the orcs dear...

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Mar 31, 2023 9:00 am

    That said, yandexing a bit for videos quite succinctly told me that this minor smokey residue and the operation of the extraction hatch is no problem

    Just for the visualization how stupid and figured out "problem" our chimp team figured out :



    This is a dedicated extraction system that works autonomously as a part of the loader.
    Case bottom will be extracted anyway, the hatch opening can be blocked and that means it will ricochet inside the turret.

    Want the next case of superb western tank design?
    Here you go.
    M1 hull ammo magazine.
    It is located right front, next to the driver.
    Because of lacking the physical space, it is useless in battle.
    There is no way to retrieve the ammo from there and load the gun with it.
    If the tank will reverse the turret back, a driver can take off the round, and give it back to the fighting compartment using that small hole in the turret bustle I was mentioning the last time.
    So in reality, this ammo is NOT CARRIED at all, leaving the load of 32 rounds.
    And here starts an even more fascinating part.
    The M1 ammo magazine is located in the turret bustle on the back, and is physically divided into two compartments of 16 pcs each.
    Both magazines have own exproof doors and own blow off pannels.
    The loader position is on the left side of the turret, behind the gunner, and left from the commander.
    Access to the ammo magazine located behind the loader's back is already quite challenging, there is simply a lack of space while M1 is much bigger inside than L2.
    But there are only 16 pcs in that magazine, and what is next?
    Well ... the loader must grab behind the commander's back, take out the round, and load.
    How exactly?
    Ouch, you should have seen that!  Laughing
    It is a circus-level gym skill of combined warfare when the commander is pushing forward while the loader is pushing behind his back..
    Both gunner and commander have seats made of two pieces that are independent and separated - one is for your butt, and the other is for supporting the back.
    Well ... Commanders hardly ever open the back supporting part, as the loader wouldn't be able to operate the ammo magazine behind him.
    When I was talking about next-gen high-tech bio-robotic chimp loaders, I was only partially kidding.

    Oh shit, this is a kind of superb western breed ergonomy!
    Behold, suckers!!

    On the other hand, most of the ammunition for Russian tanks outside the ammo magazine is easy to grab.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 Two-piece-1

    Yes, sure, that puts some disadvantages if the tank gets penetrated, yet ...

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 M1-vs-10

    A whole Soviet-designed ammo load is located below the equivalent M1 layout, making the hitting envelope closer by at least 500m.

    And Russkie learned the lesson in Chechenya, so a situation when they fight with only carousel-stored ammo is notorious. Sure, that limits the load to 22/26 pcs, yet the ammo magazine is located so fukin' low, that hitting it another way than top attack ammo is a challenge.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Fri Mar 31, 2023 1:31 pm

    Mntzr wrote:
    100k shells a month is only 3333 shells a day. 10000 vs 3333 is a massive difference. Plus ukraine is not getting all the production

    Add them all together: the full ramped up rate of 90k a month for U.S., 6k for Canada, ~40k for Germany (the highest in Europe, as they stated), and let’s be generous and say an additional 50k a month from various other countries to supplement (France, Australia, etc), we get a total of 186,000 per month x 12 = 2.2 million a year.

    186k per month is exactly 6,200 a day, which precisely matches AFU’s expenditures. So, one can see that at full ramp up, NATO should theoretically be able to just eke out keeping Ukraine afloat

    If we conclude that not all the expenditure is 155mm and that another portion is 152mm

    The production and expenditure make sense

    The numbers fluctuate, but the picture is clear
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:24 pm

    As our combined chimp&doom team made me a good laugh, here you have some candy considering "open hatches" Laughing Laughing

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 Zrzut_66

    This guy is about 1.70m tall.
    I was touching the surface of the gunner's hatch with my head in the highest position even without the helmet, with my knees down, and I am 1.84.
    No way to move freely the other way. You will just hit the hatch rant.
    And no way to work there with no helmet, you will hit dozen of things with your head at the first 20m.
    Here you have the superb & user friendly design and ergonomics Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Here is another pure gold.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 Zrzut_67

    Oh my, oh my, oh my - why do they wear gas masks, anybody wonders? Laughing

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Mar 31, 2023 2:36 pm

    They are wearing the gas maks because

    A. if the NBC system fails, all tanks have those there
    B. The NBC system isn't active hence the need even if you open the hatch, if the NBC system isn't on you are still required to wear masks.

    In regards to the abram's ammo, Unless you get a sweet side shot at the turret it's not a problem, you will not get the ammo via a frontal hit, and if your shoot at the side, well the tank is dead anyways, so this is an extremely moot point

    As for drones, that's a problem for any tank.

    These posts are silly and rely upon people with ignorant knowledge of the subject matters.

    Additionally, An abrams tank crew can fire a round every 7 seconds ad that's the min if you cannot meet that you will not pass your TCGST. I know guys who can load sounds in less than half that time.

    So trying to bash the placement is childish and you clearly do not know what you're talking about and are just looking to score cheap "bash the enemy points". This is why armchair experts are annoying, always wrong and attempting to misguide the facts based on their own personal views.

    When the reality is different

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:39 pm

    Loading shells into the breach with a gas mask on is some hardcore nonsense

    Reminds me of my military service when we had a bunch of people being forced to do pushups and running for an hour in gas masks and NBC suits. Not good.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:48 pm

    That is not even the point.
    But keep our Battlefield Rambo in good menthal shape, the condition and price of medical treatment in the US can be a challenge.

    Operating with hatches open is a standard practice as we can see.
    And that is not accidental, there is simply no space to stand for the loader.
    That applies to L2, too.
    The only difference is, that L2 turret is much more ... ekhm ... cozy Laughing
    The space there left and right of the gun breach is equal with T-72A/B ... only they need to operate there with one person extra, and manually load Laughing

    Do they operate this way in battle?
    No. Usually not.
    Just need to kneel to fit Laughing

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:12 pm

    "Operating with hatches open is standard practice as we can see"

    In combat, no it's not I do not know the context of what was going on in the image you posted but it is super easy to take a picture and say X is going on, you are misleading facts.

    "And that is not accidental, there is simply no space to stand for the loader."

    Another lie, there is a space for the loader to maneuver and do his job. Abrams crews do not operate with the hatch open in combat situations. You cherry picked images to try and push your propaganda, never once was the entire turret section visible in these pics etc. Also you do not need to stand in an abrams to reload the gun, nor does standing actually make you load it any faster, so again a COMPLETELY MOOT POINT

    The autoloaders on the t72s, 80s etc have their fair share of problems, t90, for example, its ROF is about 7-8 rounds a minute but once it fires those 22 rounds then you need to reload the loader and that takes time. The loader can fail causing big problems etc.

    You clearly know nothing about the topic you are trying to preach.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:19 pm

    We all know already that you are dumb as a rock, so nothing new here.
    There is no fukin' space for a guy 1.7m tall to stand up with a helmet on his head.
    They are forced to bend down, which is why on any occasion when it is not needed, hatches remain open.
    What is so much complicated here that you are struggling with?
    I know that your Battlefield mission was smooth, so take your pills and GTFO.

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    Post  famschopman Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:28 pm

    I'm not expert in this area but this is what my perception is. Driving, chilling, firing. Hatch open.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 U.S._Army_M1A2_Abrams_Iraq_2005
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 R.21537182407465ce06d816bdaa106459?rik=CibDRuorXvyBuA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fdata3.primeportal.net%2ftanks%2f200th_engineers%2fm1_abrams%2fimages%2fm1_abrams_50_of_55
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 TMFR5C45URGIZEQHMCMGRWVYZI
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 E4FzvaAISQrKQCVcQAy7QMEVZhtKk-fu2vWFfsLcAlo
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 M1A1-Firing-svg-01

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    Post  Hole Fri Mar 31, 2023 4:58 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 Fsi5-j10
    Son of the Ugandan President.
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 Image_11
    Forpost-R drone with KAB-20 bombs

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    Post  Hole Fri Mar 31, 2023 5:12 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 Scree631
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 Scree632
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #40 - Page 40 Scree633

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    Post  Backman Fri Mar 31, 2023 6:17 pm

    Seems like some kind of drone scatter shot

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