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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #30

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:44 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Many here don't have American TV. at least to me, it's interesting to see what both sides r saying.
    That way I can sift trough propaganda & half truths from all sides to form a more complete picture.

    Riiight...

    so you watched Iraqi TV when the the US invaded Iraq?  Suspect

    Or maybe you watched Libyan TV when NATO was busy destroying Africas most developed nation as they supported AQ terrorists? Suspect

    Maybe folks in American living rooms were tuning into nazi or jap radio during WW2?  Suspect

    No thanks.  I don't give a flying fck what the corrupt lying Murkan elites feed to their consumer drone-slaves.

    He was told this multiple of times.

    Which leads me to believe that either he is intentionally trolling, or he is a perfect example of an American.

    But I have met so many Americans who are genuinely good people and know that their media is absolute garbage (which is why Joe Rogan outdoes all of them and Tucker Carlson is most popular of the TV people. Or fact Jimmy Dore is really moving up too).

    So I am thinking he is more of the first.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:55 am

    I got my info. on those invasions online, with articles & videos from non-mainstream media. Even if I had TVs from those countries, I don't know Arabic, so Aljazeera in English that I could access online was enough.
    I could care less of what others think of any media- it's their choice what to watch & accept as truth or what not.
    crod
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    Post  crod Fri Oct 21, 2022 4:56 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Someone is a little sensitive tongue

    I have no friggin idea what you are yabbering about.  I lost WW2? My jihadi bitches?

    The forum hopes you can get over your Joe Biden moment.

    russia

    i'm assuming PD is referring to your name, Gazza - where i see it as your name being Gary or Gascoigne perhaps PD thinks you're from down ME way??

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:07 am

    crod wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Someone is a little sensitive tongue

    I have no friggin idea what you are yabbering about.  I lost WW2? My jihadi bitches?

    The forum hopes you can get over your Joe Biden moment.

    russia

    i'm assuming PD is referring to your name, Gazza - where i see it as your name being Gary or Gascoigne perhaps PD thinks you're from down ME way??

    I doubt that, as I'm sure he knows I'm an ex-brit Aussie. I've said it often enough, but maybe you're right dunno

    Not losing sleep over it. Harsh reactions are to be expected whenever we dare to criticize the cultural idiosyncrasies of that particular ethnic group...

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    Post  wilhelm Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:13 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Many here don't have American TV. at least to me, it's interesting to see what both sides r saying.
    That way I can sift trough propaganda & half truths from all sides to form a more complete picture.
    But you have been posting almost exclusively from one sides sources only..links without comments.

    It's pretty obvious what you are doing.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:37 am

    I posted many sites in Russian & none in Ukrainian, as well as in English, from all sides; sticking to 1-sided views doesn't show any variety & stifles critical thinking, much less the ability to read between the lines. As is well known, the 1st casualty of war is the truth; that's why I refrain from commenting too much to avoid arguments & hollering, & to let every1 make their own determinations & form opinions, without appearing to be imposing any of my own.
    https://news.antiwar.com/2022/10/20/us-general-makes-rare-visit-to-nuclear-armed-submarine-in-arabian-sea/

    https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2022-10-20/russia-says-it-continued-to-hit-ukrainian-energy-and-military-sites-over-last-24-hours

    https://www.rt.com/russia/565029-ukraine-aid-us-mccarthy/

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63329266
    zepia
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    Post  zepia Fri Oct 21, 2022 6:43 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    These low-radar visibility suicide drones with long ranges are a double edged sword

    On the one hand yes, they make an excellent substitution to iron bombs probably costing less than a sortie with the dumbest cheapest bombs you can find. And more accurate, with real-time video at that.

    On the other hand this heralds a whole new mini-revolution in warfare, and it's one Russia has to watch out for and soon. Because nothing prevents NATO from copying the idea and churning out thousands of these things themselves to supply to the Ukraine. In fact we should assume this will be done within 2 months.

    Russia needs its anti-drone defenses ready by then. Chiefly EW means. The gammut of them ranging from portable anti-infantry weapons to heavy vehicle and aircraft mounted means. Maybe even EMP shells, as were rumored to be in trials for the Msta-S or Koalitsiya systems; so that drones can be knocked out even with artillery.

    Also, if there are any cheap AAA defences with optical/radar automated guidance for engaging small drones, preferably with air burst shells - then it needs to get as much of those out as it can to units in the field as well. The 57mm cannons will be too much to ask for of course. But at least the Zu-23-2s, Shilkas and Tunguskas purposed for mobile defense and equipped with working radars.

    What I'll say for the Ukrainian military is that after 8 months of bombardment - they are far more accustomed to camouflaging themselves from the air and moving about undetected then Russian units will be. It's harder for Russia to find targets among them, then it would be for them to find targets to hit among the Russian forces - who have enjoyed air superiority and a great deficit of enemy precision capabilities to date.
    This is something that Russian command needs to deliberate on and find counters for ahead of time. And there isn't that much time.


    I'm 100% agree. But I don't think Russia is completely unprepare for this kind of attack.
    The west is toying around with drone swamp idea for years, and the fact that a few month ago USA was supply Ukraine with a thousand of switchblade drone, which barely do anything to Russian forces, indicated that they already have some way to counter.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:03 am

    [quote="zepia"]
    flamming_python wrote:

    You guys are making one serious mistake in theory.
    Assuming that 404 is capable to provide anything, and what even more, that the "collective west" is.

    Well ... both are not.

    The Ukro phenomenon of being one of the worlds players on the arms market was founded by the fact of waste soviet stocks they have been left with. The giant part of their existence was coming from spare parts deliveries, repairs etc - all that a Soviet heritage.
    The sole big export contract they carried, was tanks delivery to the Pak, but that was 25 !! years ago. And the contract was never repeated, in opposite to the Indian one for Russkie tanks, you have noticed that?

    While the US phenomenon is that the sell volume is made by price not numbers. And that applies to the other NATO members yet Turkey.

    Effectiveness of Iranian weaponry is made on price tag.
    But of course Iskander beats any missile the Iranians may provide - yet costs 10x more, and is a serious overkill for most of the targets.
    Now imagine we talk about creating this flying mopeds in US. It will cost not $2000, but $100000. Dudes, they are selling a pipe with powder for $100k. Price effectiveness is 4-5x for Russkie stuff, but will be 10-20x for the Iranian.
    Who will run out of $ to pay that shit first? Laughing

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:15 am

    The US can set up a plant in Mexico/C. America/Micronesia to make them cheap.
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    Post  Erk Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:21 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The US can set up a plant in Mexico/C. America/Micronesia to make them cheap.

    Sounds good, what's the address of this plant?

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:42 am

    Absurdity Blv. 404.

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    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:44 am

    if Shahads cost 30k https://www.kp.ru/daily/27459/4664004/?ysclid=l9i2cdrngs543408143 how much do lancet costs?
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Oct 21, 2022 7:46 am

    zepia wrote:[
    I'm 100% agree. But I don't think Russia is completely unprepare for this kind of attack.
    The west is toying around with drone swamp idea for years, and the fact that a few month ago USA was supply Ukraine with a thousand of switchblade drone, which barely do anything to Russian forces, indicated that they already have some way to counter.

    They are more prepared than any given country in NATO.
    I suppose that the Iranians MIGHT be better prepared in a sense of tools, yet doubt the numbers - that is why I have several times claimed that we should very carefully inspect the Iranian AD assets and composition. They are obviously well established with antidrone warfare.

    thegopnik wrote:if Shahads cost 30k https://www.kp.ru/daily/27459/4664004/?ysclid=l9i2cdrngs543408143 how much do lancet costs?

    I wouldn't put much attention to this number.
    First, Komsomolskaya is a tabloid, not better than The Sun or Der Bild.
    A photo in the article does not present Geran-2 to begin with Laughing
    Second, as you can see, they are extrapolating adding the things to the price of a good quality moped Laughing
    "the things" are a system elements that are multiple use, some of those are non existing (weapon, as the drone is a weapon), hell, most of the moped systems are not even there! Laughing
    Making that in perspective: Kornet missile price was less than $5000 in one of the export contracts, I can't remember now which one.

    Edit :

    Something to think about. Some Rusich storming Ukr strongpoint. There are more than 10 POWs only at this 200m of contact line taken.

    https://t.me/DonbassDevushka/30521

    I suppose that after the strikes of art and AGS more are left dead.

    That would give a good piece for thinking to all sofa Rommels who doubt the Russkie given numbers of hundreds of Ukr soldiers 200/300/POW each day.
    Oh sorry, I forgot that thinking skill was not implemented in their programs. Laughing Laughing

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    Post  nomadski Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:07 am




    The oldest Monarch , and the shortest serving Prime Minister ! Data link to Shetland and Faroe Islands severed , and it did not make the headlines ! And the price of lettuce ( even the wet variety ) going up , growers can not afford the cost of heating in Green- houses in the UK . Iranian drone operators in Crimea ( who told them ? ) firing drones . Just make sure that these drone installations , are moved sporadically to guard against Himars , especially the variety that can be planted by hand , like those against the Russian planes in Crimea . I guess if another British electronic spy plane is fired upon by " mistake " , it will not make the headlines , like the data link in Shetland .

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    Post  thegopnik Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:15 am

    Alamo wrote:I wouldn't put much attention to this number.
    First, Komsomolskaya is a tabloid, not better than The Sun or Der Bild.
    A photo in the article does not present Geran-2 to begin with Laughing
    Second, as you can see, they are extrapolating adding the things to the price of a good quality moped Laughing
    "the things" are a system elements that are multiple use, some of those are non existing (weapon, as the drone is a weapon), hell, most of the moped systems are not even there! Laughing
    Making that in perspective: Kornet missile price was less than $5000 in one of the export contracts, I can't remember now which one.

    Edit :

    Something to think about. Some Rusich storming Ukr strongpoint. There are more than 10 POWs only at this 200m of contact line taken.

    https://t.me/DonbassDevushka/30521

    I suppose that after the strikes of art and AGS more are left dead.

    That would give a good piece for thinking to all sofa Rommels who doubt the Russkie given numbers of hundreds of Ukr soldiers 200/300/POW each day.
    Oh sorry, I forgot that thinking skill was not implemented in their programs. Laughing Laughing

    regardless one article states it costs 20k to make shahad and this source estimates 30k for the fuel and warhead as well(1700km range with 400kg payload). For 2023 the estimated costs for a F-35 would be reduced to 30k fligth costs not counting maintenance or weapons to be used along with some crashes(not in a contested EW enviroment) while the Shahad has taken out aircrafts, while the lancet has taken out radars and air defense systems and based on size, range and payload it has to be way cheaper than the shahad but yandex search for costs are not helping at all and when i got to the kalishnikov product page i clicked the lancet product and my screen says address cant be found. The lancet costs is just for my own curiosity because search results are not helping.

    Edit: Based on this war I am trying to predict if any new F-35 contracts would be made or some get cancelled down the line because of what we are all seeing.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Oct 21, 2022 8:26 am

    As I said, put that into perspective.
    If a Kornet missile cost is $5k. No way Lancet will cost more than that, actually much much less.
    And there is nothing in Geran to cost $30k, seriously.
    Those calculations are made to cheer themselves of how much the Russkie have spent. Numbers are getting ridiculous, they have tenfold the Calibr price for example Laughing Laughing to come with the conclusion that Russkie spent half a billion in one day.
    Like that would make any impression on them, considering the economic situation Laughing Laughing to begin with ...

    Edit : have you tried at Roszakaz? Asking seriously, tons of bizarre data can be found there, and that is the best source one may find.

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    Post  Firebird Fri Oct 21, 2022 9:04 am

    zorobabel wrote:US lawmakers are discussing a $50 billion aid package for Ukraine. The warmongers have found their next forever war.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1583174510219755520

    Esp give than Russia was allowing its bases and logistics to be used for the Afghan war, it shows what utter cowardly scum Washington are.

    Russia needs to choose a group to arm vs America. Or many groups.
    Its not like America doesn't have enemies or soft spots eg 780 largely unwelcome foreign bases.

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    Post  Arrow Fri Oct 21, 2022 10:44 am

    It is interesting that when it comes to drones, the Russian-Iranian cooperation has gained tremendous pace. In the case of China, however, this is not evident. China also has a lot to offer when it comes to drone technology. scratch here is no such visible cooperation here.
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    Post  famschopman Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:05 am

    The challenge moving forward, like someone else here already mentioned, is to explore air defense systems and platforms that are equipped to detect small drones.

    In the case of the Shahed 136 / Geran-2 they have been using a plastic / honeycomb based composite body maybe with radar absorbing or signal scattering internal structures or matte paints? That might explain why they are so hard to lock on to by existing air defense. It's not like these are really small objects like a DJI drone.

    The challenge for US/Nato to adopt these systems is internal spending and procurement. Even though a drone might have a base cost of 30k they will find a way to make it 1Mio a piece and the major take away is the ability to have a low cost and high-volume item.

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    Post  billybatts91 Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:13 am

    Firebird wrote:
    zorobabel wrote:US lawmakers are discussing a $50 billion aid package for Ukraine. The warmongers have found their next forever war.

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1583174510219755520

    Esp give than Russia was allowing its bases and logistics to be used for the Afghan war, it shows what utter cowardly scum Washington are.

    Russia needs to choose  a group to arm vs America. Or many groups.
    Its not like America doesn't have enemies or soft spots eg 780 largely unwelcome foreign bases.

    Putin and Co. were too chummy with the West for a long time. It was a big mistake on their part.
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    Post  Arrow Fri Oct 21, 2022 11:24 am

    Putin wants negotiations. Ukraine, on the other hand, does not want them. But what does Putin want to negotiate? Neutral Ukraine? Still believes in the power of some pieces of paper?

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:01 pm

    famschopman wrote:The challenge moving forward, like someone else here already mentioned, is to explore air defense systems and platforms that are equipped to detect small drones.
    In the case of the Shahed 136 / Geran-2 they have been using a plastic / honeycomb based composite body maybe with radar absorbing or signal scattering internal structures or matte paints? That might explain why they are so hard to lock on to by existing air defense. It's not like these are really small objects like a DJI drone.
    The challenge for US/Nato to adopt these systems is internal spending and procurement. Even though a drone might have a base cost of 30k they will find a way to make it 1Mio a piece and the major take away is the ability to have a low cost and high-volume item.

    This shit is made of plastic, so can be absolutely transparent to the radar. And I mean all of it.
    It is a single use piece, plastic/polimers are quite impressive those days, and Iran has really advanced chemical processing industry that has dealt with cleaning the gas for years. Fuel is partially transparent either, this thing can consume about 2l per hour, so a maximal range of 2000 km is .. 25l or something!? It is a canister in size ...
    Almost no thermal signature, engine is not only small, low temperature but cooled with intense efficiency by the flow of air.
    It is slow - doppler effect will be less applicable to it, it is something that caused a part of Matthiast Rust "success" - Soviet PVO system was simple set to don't care this type of objects, as no threat was considered.
    No matter how ridiculous this might sound now, but I suppose that a noise detector with an optical channel would be an optimal solution to find, track&destroy this thing.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:05 pm

    US lawmakers are discussing a $50 billion aid package for Ukraine. The warmongers have found their next forever war.

    They will be wanting to rush that through because after the elections on November 8th or 9th there might be too many republicans to stop them.

    It is in Russia's interest to keep the West divided. But the Ukraine conflict has brought the west together.

    This is why China too is upset with Russia as they also want a divided west.

    The governments in the west are not united, and the people in the EU will be keen to thank the US for the price and lack of gas supplies this winter... inflation and the price at the fuel pumps and of course the increases in defence spending just to make up for donations to the Ukraine let alone creating these new capabilities they keep talking about like a unified integrated IADS for all of HATO... well there are going to be 10 different search radar and 10 different tracking radar and 10 different long range SAM... well you get the picture... and what they are not talking about is how much it is all going to cost...

    NATO already has MALD decoy and jammer drone swarms. Thats russian's biggest threat, but I somehow doubt that russian military planners take NATO drone swarms seriously, judging by the lack derivatsiyas produced and lack of peresvet mass production.

    I am sure the Russians are testing lots of secret stuff in the background they don't want HATO to know about and also stuff they are keeping in reserve for the same reasons...

    The West was never 'divided'. They had issues they disagreed upon, in some areas Europe and America were competitors, just as within the EU itself some countries competed with each other..

    The west is defined by those who do what they are told by the US without question...

    Russia does not need to divide HATO or EU specifically, their hopes are that the EU will wake up to being used by the US, but they are not going to push anything themselves...

    Why interfere when your enemy makes mistake after mistake after mistake.

    Many here don't have American TV. at least to me, it's interesting to see what both sides r saying.
    That way I can sift trough propaganda & half truths from all sides to form a more complete picture.

    They reminded me of a CNN report from about 1988 that was talking about the war in Afghanistan, with the Muj talking about how they were looking forward to the peace and prosperity when the Soviets leave.... ahhahahaha.


    regardless one article states it costs 20k to make shahad and this source estimates 30k for the fuel and warhead as well(1700km range with 400kg payload)

    Aircraft parts are more expensive than motor mower parts because they are tested and made of specific materials, but components for a suicide drone don't need to last more than one days use so the quality can actually be lowered to the point where they are made from components rejected for aircraft because while they won't last a week on a real aircraft they don't have to on a drone, so not only do they not need to cost hundreds of dollars per nut or bolt, they can be free... taken out of the reject buckets at factories already making higher spec stuff for other things.

    They don't even need to be made of exotic materials... drones these days can be made of durable foam that wont fail even when bullets pass through it.

    China also has a lot to offer when it comes to drone technology. scratch here is no such visible cooperation here.

    I seem to remember a lot of complaints about Chinese drones in use that they were a bit fragile and were not as good as hoped for... by some users.

    In the case of the Shahed 136 / Geran-2 they have been using a plastic / honeycomb based composite body maybe with radar absorbing or signal scattering internal structures or matte paints? That might explain why they are so hard to lock on to by existing air defense. It's not like these are really small objects like a DJI drone.

    The problem with drones is that you need to get relatively close to spot it let alone shoot it down, which means a few SAMs near your HQs like HATO has is not good enough... you need AD systems that can move around the place, much like the Soviets had and Russians have.

    Further more the development of air burst HE rounds in 30mm and 57mm calibre will make shooting down such drones much easier because most IFVs will be getting that capacity because such capabilities is useful for other purposes too like shooting over frontal cover like a stone wall to detonate a HE round above the heads of enemy troops hiding behind said wall... a drone revealing their position... and vulnerability.

    Incredibly precise timers are needed which previously made such ammo terribly expensive, but using radio command detonation or laser command detonation means the super expensive timers can be on board the vehicle and the air burst ammo can be super cheap and produced in enormous numbers and widely used.


    Putin and Co. were too chummy with the West for a long time. It was a big mistake on their part.

    I disagree... I think if they didn't honestly try to cooperate with the west many 5th columnists would complain they never gave the west a chance and it was all Russias fault they could not cooperate. By doing what he did it is pretty clear that the west is the west and there is no being friends on equal terms, no independent development of your own... you follow the US or you are the enemy.

    Given those options Russia is on the best possibly trajectory it could be on.

    Putin wants negotiations. Ukraine, on the other hand, does not want them. But what does Putin want to negotiate? Neutral Ukraine? Still believes in the power of some pieces of paper?

    He knows Zelensky wont agree to the terms he offered before he started this attack and since then Putins terms are only getting worse for Kiev.... he is going to say he is open to negotiation because he knows he is going to get what he wants on the battlefield anyway... like he did with the Crimea... after 25 odd years wanting to join the Russian federation the Crimea got what they wanted... but not by agreement with Zelensky or Poroshenko... by force on the ground and then by referendum... which is how he is going to take enormous portions of the Ukraine.

    Once he gets a certain distance across the Ukraine however the referendums are going to start to prefer neutrality instead of joining Russia, and that is fine, but then they will take the rest of the Ukraine and create a neutral Ukraine with politicians Kiev has been banning up to now, and create a new state whose constitution Russia will assist in the writing of... the same way the US assisted Russia in its new constitution like the leadership limit of two terms which most other countries do not have.

    It is slow - doppler effect will be less applicable to it, it is something that caused a part of Matthiast Rust "success" - Soviet PVO system was simple set to don't care this type of objects, as no threat was considered.

    Radars also don't care for such things because tracking road traffic and birds is not very useful most of the time.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:08 pm

    The Russians have said they have deployed a laser anti drone system to ukraine with a 5km range hard kill range, so for blinding optics you could probably multiply that range by 5 or so.

    Air burst rounds, jammers, missiles... cage nets over tanks... lots of things you can do regarding drones... but you need to do all of them because no one thing will be perfect.

    Even a drone with airburst shells to shoot down enemy drones could be useful...

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Oct 21, 2022 12:11 pm

    Rust was on the radar many times. But do to the Korean airliner incidents the command of the PVO districts he crossed made sure to double and triple check before they ordered something. They were still discussing to do something as he landed in Moscow.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #30 - Page 2 Ffkmcv10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #30 - Page 2 Fflae910
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #30 - Page 2 Fflnmb10
    That pic shows the state of affairs in 404 and the west.

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