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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:30 am

    The more airplanes Russia produces that use the carbon fiber, which I presume is only 1 company so far, the more money this company gets and in end, more investments.

    Tu-214 is a good alternative for now till all other aspects of planes are ready. There isn't a need to rush.

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    Post  lancelot Sat Mar 02, 2024 3:37 pm

    There were plans to make a version of the Superjet with a composite wing. The Superjet 130. This was supposed to be a competitor to the Airbus A220.
    This would slot in between the current Superjet 95 and the MC-21-300. So it would overlap with the MC-21-200 but be more fuel efficient.

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    Post  sepheronx Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:03 pm

    I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly confused with all these civil airplanes and to me they always seemed to overlap each other.

    I mean, why SSJ when MS-21 is gonna exist too?

    Anyway.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Mar 02, 2024 8:48 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I'm not gonna lie, I am mostly confused with all these civil airplanes and to me they always seemed to overlap each other.

    I mean, why SSJ when MS-21 is gonna exist too?

    Then do not overlap. They are in different classes.

    lancelot wrote:There were plans to make a version of the Superjet with a composite wing. The Superjet 130. This was supposed to be a competitor to the Airbus A220.
    This would slot in between the current Superjet 95 and the MC-21-300. So it would overlap with the MC-21-200 but be more fuel efficient.

    This is it, even if actually the SJ-130 would be the counterpart of the Airbus A220-100 (formerly Bombardier CS100),
    while an eventual MC-21-200 would be the counterpart of the A220-300 (formerly Bombardier CS300).

    So eventually there would be actually opportunities for all of them.
    As I said before, only talking about jets:
    Tu-324 (regional jet, about 50 passengers)
    Tu-414 (stretched Tu-324 with derated PD-8 engines) / or SSJ-75 (for the 75 passenger niche)
    SJ-100
    SJ-130
    MC-21-200
    MC-21-310 (and Tu-214, produced in parallel.for at least 5 years)
    MC-21-400
    MC-21-400 long range
    New Ilyushin widebody with PD-35 engines
    (Possibly il-96 fuselage with new composite wings and internal systems derived from those of MC-21)

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Mar 02, 2024 11:50 pm

    Here some proper feedback.
    Not unrealistically positive and not pessimistic without reason.

    https://aviation21.ru/lyotchik-nabiraet-vysotu-ili-kak-osvoit-byudzhet-v-7000-metrov/

    A pilot gains altitude or how to master a budget of 7000 meters
    03/02/2024, 16:17

    Well, has everyone already calmed down from the hype of one popular publication with a solid sign in the title? How true are the facts presented there? Did anything bother anyone? Let’s figure out how much truth there is and how much else there is, and first we’ll go through the timing, and then on some technical details there will be comments from the source of the “Russian Aviation” website in Zhukovsky.

    Yes, the deadlines are moving. Yes this is bad. Yes, the officials convinced us that the deadlines would be met. They couldn't stand it. And the main reason for this is that suppliers who create components for civil aircraft also work with state defense orders, which have grown significantly since 2022, when the Russian government was drawing up plans until 2030.

    Numbers incomprehensive program, adopted in 2022 and adjusted in 2023, raised doubts among both ordinary people and specialists. “We’ll make it,” they retorted in the offices. But the state defense order is a priority, that’s why we didn’t have time. It’s not for nothing that Manturov recently said that the same people work on both civilian and military topics. It’s good that this has now been recognized and said.

    Let's look at the types of aircraft we have and how things are going.

    MS-21 - this year, two experimental aircraft that are currently at IAZ - 73055 and 73057 - should fly in an import-substituted version. 73055 – will be partially Russified, the wing of this aircraft is made of imported composites. 73057 - the wing is completely Russian, perhaps it will have some imported components left, but this will be a very small amount. A shift in certification is expected by approximately one year: instead of December 2024, it will be in December 2025. You should not count on the start of deliveries to airlines before the spring of 2026.

    SJ-100 – shift for two years. First of all, due to the unavailability of the PD-8 engine. The UEC commented to our website that the plane with these engines will not take off this year. Although the UAC claimed the opposite , ministers and the head of the state corporation confirmed several times in 2023 that certification of the PD-8 engine for the SJ-100 aircraft should take place in the near future, and tests of the power plant are being completed. But it was objectively impossible to meet the deadlines that were announced, and Viktor Stepanovich’s catchphrase worked: “we wanted the best, it turned out as always.” But everything is in place and in action...

    IL-114-300 – everything is simple here. In May 2023, the second prototype aircraft, serial number 0110, was rolled out. Several sources in the aviation industry report that its first flight could take place in the summer. In October last year, the Ministry of Transport proposed to postpone deliveries of the Il-114-300 to 2026. This was explained by the presence of force majeure circumstances and the impossibility of continuing development work and certification of the Il-114-300. Ilyushin simply has no time for it now; they are required to comply with the terms of the contract for the supply of 14 Il-76MD-90A until 2028. At the same time, the TV7-117ST-01 engine is completely ready for operation, and UEC talked about resuming Il-114-300 flights a year ago - in March 2023.

    Il-96-400M – the situation with the domestic wide-body airliner is unclear. What can be said for sure is that there will be no mass production of these aircraft. The government plans include 12 airliners. There were no reports of flight tests of the aircraft after its first flight.

    Tu-214 – infirst edition of the comprehensive program(2022) it was planned to produce 70 aircraft, in the summer of 2023 their number was adjusted to 115. But these plans are simply unrealistic. Whoever prepared the schedule for the government document should have understood this. Last year it was planned to build three aircraft, but none were made. In this case, seven cars need to be produced already, but if three of last year’s ones are released, that’s already good. From 2025, the Kazan Aviation Plant should reach a rate of 10 aircraft per year, in 2026 – 15, and from 2027 to build 20 aircraft annually. To produce such volumes, the plant requires a large-scale expansion of production, which is currently underway. But the main thing is not to disrupt the modernization and production of Tu-22M3 and Tu-160M bombers. There is no confidence that Kazan will implement plans for the Tu-214 in full. You just have to be realistic here.

    The Tu-214 can become the most popular aircraft with the PS-90A engine, therefore, a lot of them are needed. In 2022, in an interview with the Zvezda TV channel, the general designer of UEC-Aviadvigatel JSC, Alexander Inozemtsev , said that the company, together with military orders, is going to produce 120 PS-90A in the coming years. For 115 Tu-214 aircraft, 230 power plants are required. The comprehensive program provides for the production of 254 PS-90A engines. It turns out that for twelve Il-96-400M, transport Il-76MD-90A and replacement engines, only 24 PS-90A units remain. The Il-96-400M alone requires 48 of them and the same, if not more, for the Il-76MD-90A. Don't you think that the government document was prepared by people who do not know arithmetic?

    “Ladoga”, “Baikal”, “Osvey” - until the VK-800SM engine is ready, there is nothing to say about these aircraft... UZGA promises to begin flight tests of the engine by the end of this year. Will they be able to? Will they make it? There is no certainty. Because back in April last year, the general designer of the Engines division of UZGA, Sergei Vakushin, promised that by the end of 2023 the VK-800SM should enter flight tests as part of the Yak-40LL flying laboratory at SibNIA, and the first flight is planned for the third quarter of 2024 aircraft "Baikal" with VK-800SM. There was no further information on this topic.

    From all of the above, one conclusion follows: it is necessary to plan, soberly assessing the current situation with a responsible understanding of the state of affairs, existing and necessary resources. Unfortunately, our “talking heads” first promise, and then remain silent or, as if nothing had happened, announce a shift in deadlines: “everything is fine, we are on schedule .”

    Now about some technical details on the MS-21 aircraft.

    The author of the hype in the “firm sign” tells us that due to the use of Russian composites and parts in the import-substituted version, the flight range of the MC-21 with a maximum payload of 20,300 kg was reduced (according to the author) to less than 2,800 km, and according to some sources - up to 2000 km. “At the same time, the maximum flight altitude that the aircraft can now master is 7 km,” the article says.

    The source of Russian Aviation in Zhukovsky (Gromov Flight Research Institute) commented on this statement extremely frankly. According to him, illiterate journalists interpreted in a peculiar way plans to increase the maximum take-off weight of the aircraft from 79.25 to 85 tons in order to increase the load when fully refueled, that is, by exactly the amount that was added in the “hard sign” article to the weight of an empty aircraft . “But that’s good! All manufacturers are striving to increase weight yield,” says the source.

    It turns out that the author of the article is not familiar withaircraft type certificate MS-21-300/-310, where it is stated that the maximum payload is 21,100 kg, and the maximum operational altitude is 12,200 m. Experts know very well that flight range depends on many factors, and the weight of an empty aircraft does not always play a major role here.

    Regarding the plane’s “mastery” of an altitude of 7 km, our interlocutor expressed the opinion that these data, to put it mildly, do not correspond to reality. “According to the MS-21 type certificate, it is allowed to fly with passengers at FL400, which is 12,200 meters. Without passengers, if the plane is being transported from one airport to another, you can fly higher, at FL410,” he said. You can master the budget. The plane rises to altitude or gains it. But the journalists of the publication with a clear sign in the title apparently do not know this.

    It was at flight level FL410 - 12500 m - that aircraft 73057 with a domestic wing (the former first production MC-21 b/n 73361) flew at one of the stages of the flight for painting from Irkutsk to Ulyanovsk in July 2023, which was recorded on the graph of the online tracking service flights of civil aircraft FR24. Being at flight level FL400 (12200 m), at the request of the dispatcher, in order to allow oncoming aircraft to pass under it due to thunderstorms over Siberia, part of the route the plane flew at an odd (oncoming) flight level FL410 (12500 m).

    In January 2023, an experienced MS-21 b/n 73051 performed non-stop flights to the Omsk region and back to Zhukovsky to determine the optimal flight parameters along air routes during takeoff with a maximum permissible weight of 79,250 kg. On January 26, the flight duration was 6 hours 13 minutes, on January 27 – 5.5 hours. During these two days, the distance the plane covered was from 4000 to 4500 km. What 2000 km?

    At that time, board 73051 had already undergone remotorization for PD-14 engines. If it took off with the maximum permissible weight and was in the air for more than five hours, and the plane does not meet the weight parameters set by the designers, then this only means that it will take less payload, but the flight range will not change. They don’t understand this in the “firm sign”? Replaced the wing material and the flight range was halved? Are composites made of lead?

    “The 057 has a wing made of our composites, and its weight is practically no different from previous cars. But now no one can say anything about the weight of the installed systems, because there is no import-substituted version yet,” noted our interlocutor in Zhukovsky and added: “In Rostec, commenting on the “weight characteristics” of the MS-21, they said, that “the final appearance of the completely import-substituted aircraft will be formed in the second half of this year.” So, there is no point in talking about specific numbers now.”

    HowDmitry Rogozin noted in his telegram channel, “reproaches for the “overweight” of new Russian aircraft are a typical marked card of the “fifth column”, which every time tries to ruin the domestic civil aircraft industry.”

    Andrey Velichko

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    Post  lancelot Sun Mar 03, 2024 12:47 am

    Kommersant's claim of the MC-21 being 6 tons overweight made zero sense. It happens that aircraft become overweight compared to the original design but not by that sort of amount. And the claim of it only being able to fly at 7,000 meters altitude is just ludicrous. At best it could be that they hadn't tested it at higher altitude, but it seems even that isn't true. Since it has already flown at the design altitude which is much higher.

    From what I understand the MC-21 has had delays with the import substitution of some Western components. KRET only delivered the Russian cockpit last November. This was supposed to happen like 6 months earlier than that. And the SJ-100 still hasn't flown with the PD-8 engines. It is still doing ground tests to test integration with the aircraft. The PD-8 demonstrator engine is also still in the flying Il-76LL test platform.

    Recently there were news that funding was provided to make improved versions of JetOS. This is the real-time operating system that Russia uses in its civilian aircraft. JetOS originally was developed to be compatible with X86 and PowerPC processors. Recent versions also work with MIPS32 and ARM32 processors. It could be that the initial cockpit electronics delivered by KRET do not come with the production version of the software.

    Anyway, I kind of expected delays of a year or two to happen. Especially after it took the Russian government a whole year to get off their butt and start providing the funding to start developing the import substituted components. One single year isn't enough to produce replacements and certify them. While money was given in dribs and drabs before to develop required technologies and modernize equipment in the industries no actual funding for actually developing the components was given before that. I mean Putin even had to scold Denis Manturov for not doing enough to provide funding to get the programs rolling.

    But right now things are happening. For example UEC Saturn created more test cells for PD-8 engines. They started making turbine blades for PD-8. And they are taking delivery of machine tools over the next year to make PD-8 engines.

    I disagree with the idea that the military programs and the conflict with Ukraine are causing substantial additional delays though. These things take time to develop it is just as simple as that.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:01 am

    Then do not overlap. They are in different classes.

    But any design can be stretched and shortened and giving more powerful or less powerful engines to fit different classes...

    I disagree with the idea that the military programs and the conflict with Ukraine are causing substantial additional delays though. These things take time to develop it is just as simple as that.

    Not sure how you could disagree with that... military purchases will always take precedence over civil aircraft needs so if military aircraft are taking PS-90 engines then there wont be such engines for civil airliners if they need them, which means civil airline production will be pushed back rather than military orders.

    I rather suspect the ambitious deadlines for various aircraft and engine projects are based on what could be produced if everything is ready and everything is delivered on time and there are no problems, so delays will be normal with different aircraft competing for a limited number of engines being produced or completing development.

    As usual it is a lot to do with engines.

    Over time as they are proven, composite materials will increase in use, the Il-324 would be an ideal aircraft for a composite wing because the engines are either side of the tail so it is essentially a clean wing.

    Having options with different types of aircraft is actually a good thing which will offer alternatives or avoid the risk of no aircraft at all if there is a serious fault or problem discovered in one of the designs.

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    Post  par far Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:47 pm

    Russian airlines to lose all UN contracts.

    Proves UN is a west agency.

    https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/2/7444691/

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    Post  Swgman_BK Tue Mar 05, 2024 1:59 am

    I am legit crying if they don't make Il96-400Ms...I really love the legendary Il96s.. It's never had an accident flying with Cubana since 1993..It was problem free as well and Russia delivered the spares quite well and serviced them well for Cubana.. Cubana is happy with their il96s..

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    Post  PhSt Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:15 am


    Russian airlines to lose all UN contracts.

    Proves UN is a west agency.

    https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/2/7444691/

    A bunch of UN Pigs. Russia needs to be ruthless and gather as much dirt on all high ranking UN officials and then Blackmail them into doing Russia's bidding.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 05, 2024 3:50 am

    This claims that they will make adjustments and shift things around so that the recent delays in testing wont effect the 600 aircraft by 2030 goal...



    Russian airlines to lose all UN contracts.

    Proves UN is a west agency.

    The news source is Ukraine Pravda... why do you read such shit... more importantly why post it here?

    There is no great surprise that the UN might want to stop using Russian aircraft, but I would suggest the most common aircraft they would be using would be An-124s and Il-76s, so apart from shifting to Ukrainian aircraft (which are likely to be rather less safe than Russian models) there are few other alternatives unless they want to max out their budget and buy C-17s and A-400Ms which is unlikely just in terms of economics.

    I am legit crying if they don't make Il96-400Ms...I really love the legendary Il96s.. It's never had an accident flying with Cubana since 1993..It was problem free as well and Russia delivered the spares quite well and serviced them well for Cubana.. Cubana is happy with their il96s..

    I suspect they will make a few Il-96s to fill a few gaps but will probably be working on a new aircraft from the ground up once western aircraft have been replaced in their domestic fleets.

    With the right engines the Il96M would be an amazing aircraft.

    A bunch of UN Pigs. Russia needs to be ruthless and gather as much dirt on all high ranking UN officials and then Blackmail them into doing Russia's bidding.

    Don't worry... like most western sanctions this is going to backfire.

    You do understand that the UN using Russian/Soviet transports was nothing at all to do with charity and everything to do with the fact that they are excellent aircraft that are cheap and reliable and capable and the crews are likely cheaper than western crews as well.

    Will be amusing to see them try to find replacement types that can match the performance of the Soviet aircraft types... I can't see the Ukrainians replacing them.

    Do one of the former Soviet Stans have Il-76s to spare for the job?

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    Post  lancelot Tue Mar 05, 2024 6:46 am

    This claims that they will make adjustments and shift things around so that the recent delays in testing wont effect the 600 aircraft by 2030 goal...
    Don't count on those 600 aircraft by 2030. It will take time to certify the components and the aircraft. Plus you cannot just ramp up production of, not just aircraft, but also the whole component supply chain with a snap of the fingers. I am fairly sure by 2030 we will have serial production of SJ-100, MC-21, Il-114 by like a dozen aircraft a year of each. But the expected production volumes won't happen until like in the middle of the next decade I think.

    The situation with small aircraft, components, and engines in comparison is kind of dismal. UZGA clearly cannot do everything by itself. And much of the rest of the industry is kind of busy getting the large transport aircraft working. The thing is, they can still make helicopters, so I guess it won't be an intractable problem.

    I think there are still resources to design and make small aircraft which aren't being properly tapped. But it's kind of complicated. Without turboshaft engines that is. They need VK-800s and VK-1600s in turboshaft version. But Klimov is pretty strained as it is. They already sent the VK-800 to UZGA. And they are producing like half the helicopter engines that Russia needs. And that's for supplying engine demand for existing helicopter types. Let alone new ones. So where would this capacity to make turboshaft engines come from.

    There are quite a lot of 1990-2000s failed small aircraft designs which could be repurposed I think. They basically failed back then because with Western engines they were just too expensive. And Western aircraft certification was too hard to get, so no exports, and the Russian small aviation market back then was just tiny. But there are a couple of designs which were ok. Like these:

    Sukhoi Su-80:
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 22 Su-80-10
    This needs twin VK-1600 turboprop engines. It is basically an aircraft for rough airfield operation which can transport cargo or passengers.

    Myasishchev M-101T:
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 22 15086710
    This needs a VK-800 turboprop engine. Because it is a low wing aircraft it should be faster than the LMS-901. It should be useful for air taxi services between places with decent airstrips. The LMS-901 would be better for places with rougher airstrips.

    Another thing which they could consider would be restarting production of aircraft which were at one point made in Russia but which were designed in Ukraine and might have had some Ukrainian content. Like the An-140T or the An-38.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Mar 05, 2024 11:44 am

    lancelot wrote:Another thing which they could consider would be restarting production of aircraft which were at one point made in Russia but which were designed in Ukraine and might have had some Ukrainian content. Like the An-140T or the An-38

    The abandoned projects from the 90s were interesting, but they need import substitution anyway and it would be at least a couple of years or probably more before they could be in serial production. Think about the delays to the Tu-214.

    Furthermore they are more or less redundant with the other projects currently in development.

    Both the An-38 and the Su-80 are in the middle between the TVRS-44 Ladoga and the 19 passengers LMS-401 “Osvey”.

    Maybe they could be useful in some specific roles but there are no resources to dedicate to their re-certification and restart of production until at least 2027.

    Even if there were resources, I doubt they would be able to be in service before 2028 (which is the planned start of operation for the Osvey). I know that the Osvey could also be delayed, but I do not believe that a new import substituted An-38 could be in service much earlier than that.

    The su-80 requires engines with about 1750 hp, that is much more than the power of the VK-1600, which is 1400 hp in takeoff mode and 1750 only in case of other engine failure for 2.5 minutes emergency mode.

    The VK-1600S (turboprop version) could be instead used on the An-28, previously assembled in Novosibirsk but with component from Ukraine and Bielorussia. It would need some import substitution and I doubt it could de ready for restarting production before the TVRS-44

    The An-140T has never been actually realised, but Iran did a version of their copy of An-140 with rear ramp. Anyway, the TVRS-44 Ladoga has the same fuselage width as the An-140 and its production is already planned. Making an eventual version of the Ladoga with rear ramp will not require more time than getting the An-140T ready for serial production.

    Actually the Myasishchev M-101T with a russian turboprop would be instead a very interesting aircraft.

    Actually it could be even worth to do a longer version for 9 passengers and possibly also one for  or up to 12 /13 passengers (+1 or 2 pilots) with a Russian equivalent of a FAR part 23 waiver (FAR part 23 and EASA CS-23 state that commuter aircrafts with only one engine cannot have more than 9 passengers), powered by VK-1600S turboprop.

    I mean doing something similar to the American Cessna 208, which is bit confusing when it comes to seating.

    Under US legislation, the aircraft may have up to 11 seats and can carry 9 passengers and 2 pilots. Other countries did recertify the aircraft to have up to 14 seats. By doing so they adopt the FAA certification based on part 23 and add text to waive the 9 passenger limitation.

    The same "waiver" could be later also applied to the An-2 derivative, since otherwise is limited to 9 places under current rules.

    Original An-2 was certified for 12 passengers but in the 1980s there was a rules change with additional limitations (at least in USA and EU, and I believe it was also implemented in Russia).

    Note, does anyone has an official link to the current russian airworthiness regulations?

    I know where to read the American FAR and the EU Certification specifications, but I do not know where to check the official russian rules (but I believe that they more or less align to the US and EU rules).
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 06, 2024 10:06 am

    Don't count on those 600 aircraft by 2030. It will take time to certify the components and the aircraft. Plus you cannot just ramp up production of, not just aircraft, but also the whole component supply chain with a snap of the fingers.

    The world will not end if they make less than 600 planes, the fact that that is what they are aiming for is a good thing and I can't see them being too many years out.

    The production of the Tupolevs was only a token rate so ramping up production would actually be rather straight forward because they were not straining production in the first place, and components might be an issue along with engines too... they know the engines they want and they seem to be in production, but with lots of factories putting out aircraft then there might be a few bottlenecks when it comes to parts and engine delivery... but they will be able to sort that out.

    I am fairly sure by 2030 we will have serial production of SJ-100, MC-21, Il-114 by like a dozen aircraft a year of each. But the expected production volumes won't happen until like in the middle of the next decade I think.

    As Russian planes become available they can stop using western aircraft which means the spare parts and support systems and equipment for the remaining western types is only going to get bigger so after the first few hundred Russia aircraft enter service the pinch on the western aircraft will decrease.

    The situation with small aircraft, components, and engines in comparison is kind of dismal.

    As you point out the problem with small aircraft is engines and the introduction of new engines big and small will help and soon enough there will be rather more aircraft types available than they need.


    Another thing which they could consider would be restarting production of aircraft which were at one point made in Russia but which were designed in Ukraine and might have had some Ukrainian content. Like the An-140T or the An-38.

    No point in raising the dead, they have plenty of old and new designs that didn't go ahead because there was no suitable engine, or it threatened an Antonov design.

    Well Antonov is dead... long live the king.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 06, 2024 10:38 am

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    Post  Scorpius Wed Mar 06, 2024 2:28 pm

    Here some proper feedback.
    Not unrealistically positive and not pessimistic without reason.

    https://aviation21.ru/lyotchik-nabiraet-vysotu-ili-kak-osvoit-byudzhet-v-7000-metrov/

    I should immediately note that many of the arguments on the link are complete bullshit. First, the production figures for the Tu-214 were recently announced to Putin during his visit to receive four Tu-160ms.
    As for Ladoga and Baikal, the tests are ALREADY underway, so the person on the link is clearly not aware of events.
    As for the idiots from the editorial office of Kommersant, this is a classic example of a journalist being raped by scientists. When an idiot undertakes to write about a topic that he does not understand, but where he really wants to find sensational revealing material, such statements are obtained.
    One historical fact: many of the newest Boeing were designed by the Moscow Design Bureau. If they do not have any inadequate design advantages, then they will not be in Russian aircraft, because the level of competence is obvious.

    @GarryB, The video from the telegram channel says that the operation for the fuselage assembly was completed in 3 months. The actual construction cycle of the aircraft is about two years. Nominally, the slipway assembly shop demonstrates the actual performance of up to 4 fuselages per year, which exceeds the current performance of other production sites at VASO.

    lancelot wrote:There are quite a lot of 1990-2000s failed small aircraft designs which could be repurposed I think.
    When will it finally reach you that all the problems of the aircraft industry in Russia rest on the lack of a proper production base, and not on technical competence?
    Do you propose to solve the problem of lack of production capacity to build the right number of aircraft by increasing the number of aircraft needed to build? Did you really think about this idea for at least a few seconds before writing this on the forum?

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    Post  lancelot Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:07 am

    When will it finally reach you that all the problems of the aircraft industry in Russia rest on the lack of a proper production base, and not on technical competence?
    Do you propose to solve the problem of lack of production capacity to build the right number of aircraft by increasing the number of aircraft needed to build? Did you really think about this idea for at least a few seconds before writing this on the forum?
    There are no easy solutions. The Russian state and the private sector need to build up the small aircraft industry in Russia. This requires a more concerted policy than the token efforts which have been done so far.

    It is not like there are no people in Russia with businesses which have concept designs and can do prototype production of aircraft much like you said. For example the SR-10 trainer was made by one of these companies. KB-SAT.
    http://kb-sat.ru/projects/

    If you go to their webpage it shows not only the SR-10 project, for which they made a prototype, but also their BJ-6 business jet concept design.

    Would it be too hard for the Russian government to actually fund KB-SAT to make a new prototype of the SR-10 which could be used by DOSSAF or the Russian Air Force? Just provide them with a couple Al-55 engines for the prototypes and give them seed funding so they improve them. Instead the government single sourced MiG to make a new single engine trainer without proper bidding. Where will MiG likely build those aircraft if it gets the contract? At Sokol, so it will directly remove resources and people from working on either MiG-31 or MiG-35 production if those are necessary. I personally think the MiG-35 serial production should be started ASAP and it should be used as a FAB-500 UMPK carrier to replace part of the lost Su-25s.

    Of course new production facilities and new industries will need to be built. Factories for small aircraft and small aircraft engines. There is no other option in such a large country like Russia with lots of small and isolated communities. There is no lack of former dead or almost dead aircraft factories which could be used. For example Samara's aircraft factories are dead. Just open something there. You could also open up dedicated production facilities close to the Sokol plant. They made several light and small aircraft prototypes in the 1990s-2000s. But there is no reason why they should compete directly with military production. Much like the cluster which sprouted around Irkut which makes medium transport aircraft, you could make a cluster there around Sokol for small transport aircraft.

    The problem of bootstrapping the sector can be solved with state support. The state can provide subsidies so transport companies will connect isolated communities, and make these funds contingent on using a certain degree of localized technologies. The state can also provide transport companies with leasing similar to what is done for large transport aircraft by Ilyushin Finance Corporation and others. And finally the state itself can act as a lead client for a lot of these aircraft. The Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations, Russian Post, Russian National Service of Sanitary Aviation, etc, could directly buy small Russian aircraft in small batches and act as the initial client. If they lack the experience to create requirements and assess the performance of such aircraft just get someone from the military side to help them do it.

    For whatever reason we see people like the owner of Russian company S7 Airlines who bought a US small aircraft manufacturing company (Epic Aircraft), and yet he basically didn't invest, or at least not nearly as much in Russia. Maybe the Russian government should ask him why was this the case. Just like they asked the owner of Rostselmash.
    https://gadgetonus.com/hot-news/120556.html

    And if legislation needs to change, like relaxing the aircraft certification process, at least in certain parts of the country far from the urban centers, or whatever, maybe it should be considered.

    Much like what is done for the military, I also think it would be way better if they created competitions to create small transport aircraft. These would have fly-offs, initial seed funding would be provided, and the winner would get a small batch order and preferential state funded leasing in case other transport companies want to buy it.

    Because of the nature of how these aircraft are, you basically wouldn't need that much money to design and build them. If they pour oodles of cash into the larger aircraft they could spare much smaller amounts here. The worst problem, I think, would be the engines.


    Last edited by lancelot on Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:44 am; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Mar 07, 2024 3:43 am

    Do you propose to solve the problem of lack of production capacity to build the right number of aircraft by increasing the number of aircraft needed to build? Did you really think about this idea for at least a few seconds before writing this on the forum?

    I think he is referring to the current period when Russian airlines and companies and government organisations where they have to buy Russian products instead of looking to the rest of the world for solutions to their problems.

    There were lots of smaller aircraft that failed because there was no suitable Russian engine so when looking at foreign engines they ended up looking at foreign types that used those engines which meant Russian types struggled to get past the first hurdle of being made and tested.

    The development and production of a range of new engines, both gas turbine and diesel engines in the light aircraft range makes it possible for the various design bureaus to dust off designed they worked hard on in the 90s and the 00s with no chance of success for lack of engines.

    As engines become available they can look at what foreign types have been used and if any gaps in the market could be filled by these engines and aircraft designs.

    For the ones he listed most other design bureaus will have similar plans and aircraft designs that might not have been amazing at the time without an engine or with a foreign engine installed that made them too expensive to buy or operate, but that with new Russian engines might become more practical.

    New technologies like composite materials and even electric motors... or even more basic... having super computers with flight models that could allow the design to be built in digital form and properly tested with dozens of different wing forms and propeller types and engine options without the enormous expense of making the prototypes and doing all the testing. You could narrow it down to one or two shapes and then make them for model testing so you are not wasting time and money on something that is not going to work.

    Modern Russian software will not only help them work out design and structure, but also to work out approximate costs and assembly issues that might arise too.

    The excitement is not just the new engines including Russian versions of that diesel engine they paid for but was seized by Germany, but a lot of other engine types to that are being developed... but it is also western companies leaving the market making it open wide for Russian companies to fill those gaps as best they can so if the west ever actually grows a pair and returns to the market that they will struggle to get back in.

    There are no easy solutions. The Russian state and the private sector need to build up the small aircraft industry in Russia. This requires a more concerted policy than the token efforts which have been done so far.

    Part of the issue is liability and insurance and also the actual need for light aircraft use, but of course making the aircraft affordable would go a long way to seeing their use expand and evolve.

    Would it be too hard for the Russian government to actually fund KB-SAT to make a new prototype of the SR-10 which could be used by DOSSAF or the Russian Air Force?

    The Russian government shouldn't be supporting that sort of thing... they are funding the MiG-UTS so it would make little sense to also fund the competition.

    The SR-10 looks like an interesting aircraft... but lots of interesting aircraft never enter production...

    Instead the government single sourced MiG to make a new single engine trainer without proper bidding.

    It is probably part apology for not buying the MiG-AT in the first place because with the MiG-AT they likely wouldn't need an interim aircraft to replace the L39.

    MiG developed the MiG-AT over a period of about two decades, so they know what was wanted... as I just said their offering was better suited to the job at hand than Yaks offering, which probably won because of claims it could replace the Su-25 in CAS roles and other light attack missions for which its 3 ton payload made it look better. Experience and tested showed it was not suited to CAS missions or light attack missions so the extra weight and payload capacity just added to its operational costs which were too high to fully replace the L39.

    Where will MiG likely build those aircraft if it gets the contract? At Sokol, so it will directly remove resources and people from working on either MiG-31 or MiG-35 production if those are necessary.

    There are likely plenty of factories that could make light trainer aircraft that could handle an order. Upgrades to the MiG-31 don't seem to be taxing their capacity and there is no actual word on any large orders for MiG-35s so far as I have seen.

    Of course new production facilities and new industries will need to be built. Factories for small aircraft and small aircraft engines. There is no other option in such a large country like Russia with lots of small and isolated communities.

    The Russian government will likely fund a few developments for its own use replacing foreign types... if the market needs other types then someone will fill the gap, but really it wont matter if the Russian government funds everything... if the customers decide they don't want the Russian model and as soon as sanctions stop they start buying foreign models then that is just a waste.

    Better to let the private sector and aircraft designers and makers get together and work on things.

    The state can provide subsidies so transport companies will connect isolated communities, and make these funds contingent on using a certain degree of localized technologies.

    In the past it was this state support and waiving of import duties that got all the foreign aircraft into Russia in the first place.

    For whatever reason we see people like the owner of Russian company S7 Airlines who bought a US small aircraft manufacturing company, and yet he basically didn't invest, or at least not nearly as much in Russia.

    Or that guy that took Russian money to get his diesel engine into serial production... in Germany... it seems when the Russian government gives people money they all run overseas with it and invest it in other countries...

    Sounds like they should be investing their own money and investing it in Russia.

    Without solid contracts to ensure they use the money in Russia for the benefit of Russia then they shouldn't get any support at all.

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    Post  kvs Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:35 am

    Thanks to NATzO sanctions the days of such clowns running off with Russian taxpayer money are over. NATzO's sanctions are the
    best thing ever to fix Russia's problems, which are a legacy of the Yeltsin shock therapy rot. Instead of failing like a rotten facade,
    to use Hitler's characterization, Russia is getting much stronger. Western leaders have a centuries long delusion about Russia and
    reality keeps whooping their asses but they never learn. I guess wallowing in fantasy projection is just too irresistible.

    Russia needs to stop with the nonsense of following western fashions in aircraft design and anything else. We still have no long term
    experience with composites but people are obsessed with pushing them in every crack. Unlike metal, carbon fiber is prone to attack
    by oxygen and other gas radical species. It will form microfractures regardless of the lamination. Any water penetration into the composite
    is lethal since leads to mechanical breakdown and delamination. There is no free lunch with composites.

    I think it is highly likely that composite wing aircraft will not last as long as the "obsolete" full metal models of the past. But their
    operators will want to push them for as long or longer. I suppose we need some crashes with hundreds of people killed before we
    hear the usual "who could have know such a thing could happen" refrain.

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    Post  lancelot Thu Mar 07, 2024 5:45 am

    The Russian government will likely fund a few developments for its own use replacing foreign types... if the market needs other types then someone will fill the gap, but really it wont matter if the Russian government funds everything... if the customers decide they don't want the Russian model and as soon as sanctions stop they start buying foreign models then that is just a waste.

    Better to let the private sector and aircraft designers and makers get together and work on things.
    What the Russian government basically did is it threw a bone to the Il-114 and the UZGA small aircraft projects like the LMS-901 Baikal. And the rest of the gap is supposed to be filled with helicopters. But helicopters are less energy efficient and much more dangerous to operate than winged aircraft. They also operate at slower speeds. So one doesn't really replace the other.

    Production of helicopter engines is also constrained. The manufacturing plant which makes the Klimov engines is working to double its engine production. Attrition due to combat is taking a way larger toll on the helicopter sector than in fixed wing aviation.

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    Post  wilhelm Thu Mar 07, 2024 1:22 pm

    The first newly built Il-114, seen below in construction, and during taxi trials, has begun its taxi trials.
    This included high speed taxi trials, and lifting the front wheel from the runway.

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 22 Il-11411
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 22 Il-11410

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Mar 14, 2024 6:14 pm

    https://aviation21.ru/uzga-zavershit-sborku-pervogo-opytnogo-samolyota-ladoga-k-koncu-tekushhego-goda/

    UZGA will complete the assembly of the first prototype Ladoga aircraft by the end of this year
    14.03.2024, 17:32

    The assembly of the first flight prototype of the Ladoga aircraft (TVRS-44) will be completed in Yekaterinburg at the facilities of the Ural Civil Aviation Plant by the end of this year; the prototype may begin flying in the first half of 2025. The “Russian Aviation” website was told about this in the “Vzlyot” magazine.

    The aircraft will be produced in broad cooperation between enterprises in the aircraft and engine manufacturing industries. The fuselage is the responsibility of the Samara Aviakor plant, the wing box and wing assembly will be produced at the Smolensk Aviation Plant, the tail unit will be produced at the UZGA production site in Nizhny Novgorod, the aircraft will receive a TV7-117ST-02 engine developed by ODK-Klimov as a power plant "

    The final assembly will be carried out in Aramil (Ektb) in the Titanium Valley special economic zone at the Uktus site. Here, a building for engineering and technical services and a production building were erected for UZGA, where the aircraft will be assembled. To carry out testing and certification of the machine, it is planned to build four prototypes - two flight ones, a static one and a life-saving one.

    “It is expected that the fuselage from Samara, the wing from Smolensk and other components of the first flight prototype of the TVRS-44 will arrive for final assembly in Yekaterinburg by this summer, and by the end of the year the aircraft will begin workshop testing of on-board systems, and it will be able to take off in the first half of 2025,” said our interlocutor at the Vzlyot editorial office.

    Currently, in Samara and Smolensk, in parallel with the creation of units for the first flight model of the aircraft, the fuselage for a static prototype is being manufactured, which will be transferred to TsAGI for testing. In 2025, it is planned to complete the construction of the second flight model, and after that - the resource model. Taking into account the large volume of certification work, which involves about 800 test flights, the start of serial production of Ladoga aircraft and the first deliveries to customers is expected no earlier than 2027. To speed up the certification process, UZGA and the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation are discussing the possibility of creating a third flight prototype.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:42 am

    https://www.flugrevue.de/zivil/wann-kommt-die-twrs-44-ladoga-hier-entsteht-russlands-neues-regionalflugzeug/

    TVRS-44 LADOGA UNDER CONSTRUCTION

    When is Russia's new regional aircraft coming?
    In the shadow of well-known Russian airline projects such as Superjet and MS-21, another passenger aircraft is being built east of the Ural Mountains: the TWRS-44 Ladoga. The regional turboprop is eagerly awaited in Russia. But when will it be finished?

    Patrick Zwerger
    March 18, 2024

    You won't learn much if you search the Internet for news about the TWRS-44 Ladoga. Even on relevant Russian websites, the turboprop project lives in the shadows. Its importance for Russian civil aviation should not be underestimated - with space for 40 to 50 passengers, the TVRS-44 fits into exactly the segment that is still used in Russia today by the Antonov An-24 (and partly the An-26 ) is filled out.

    Successor to Soviet oldies

    The An-24 was built until 1979, and the examples that are still active, especially in the more inhospitable regions of Russia, have been waiting to be replaced for years. The same applies to the ATR 42 from the West, some of which have also found their way to Russia in the past. The TWRS-44, built by the Ural Civil Aircraft Plant USGA in the Aramil special economic zone near Yekaterinburg, could become the legitimate successor to this warhorse of aviation - and according to the manufacturer, it is actually intended for exactly that.

    The TVRS-44 could replace old models such as the Antonov An-24 in passenger operations on remote routes

    Delay – sure

    Original plans from 2021 called for the first Ladoga units to be delivered to customers as early as 2025. Nothing will definitely come of this, because even in spring 2024 there will only be a fuselage mock-up of the aircraft and not a single real prototype yet. Nevertheless, the USGA and well-known suppliers continue to work hard on the project, which is largely based on the Let 610 designed in Czechoslovakia. According to the adjusted plan, the first test machine should be ready by the end of this year. A maiden flight is now planned for the first half of 2025. A total of four prototypes are planned to be built, although two of them are intended for static tests.

    Problem engine from Klimov
    The Let 610 was a flop with only six completed aircraft, but that shouldn't happen with the more Russified new edition. With new avionics, a glass cockpit, a lavishly designed cabin and powerful Klimov turboprops, the USGA, in the shape of the Ladoga, believes it is in tune with the times. The TW7-117ST-02 engines produce 2,400 hp and are a reduced-power variant of the TW7-117ST-01, which is used in the larger Ilyushin Il-114-300 . The Il-112W military transporter - which has now been put on ice - also flew with two TW7-117STs until one of them caught fire in the air and the only prototype of the Il-112W crashed in Kubinka. Subsequently, structural defects were discovered in the engine, which have since been remedied.

    The TWRS-44 is intended to fly 2,100 kilometers with 40 passengers. The USGA specifies the cruising speed as up to 480 km/h.

    Perfect for rough operations
    Klimow would like to begin series production of the TW7-117ST-02 for the Ladoga in 2025. USGA itself orchestrates the final assembly in Aramil and produces the performance mechanism at the Nizhny Novgorod plant, while the fuselage of the TWRS-44 is manufactured at Aviakor in Samara and the wings including the wing center box come from the Smolensk aircraft plant. Technodinamika from Moscow is also involved as a system supplier.

    In use, the new model is intended to score points with its particular robustness and is therefore ideal for flights to remote areas under extreme climatic conditions. The Russian-Far Eastern regional airline Aurora signed a letter of intent for 15 TWRS-44s in January 2024. The aircraft are said to come from a Russian lessor.

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    Post  Kiko Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:33 pm

    Russia's SJ-100 and MC-21 Aircraft Have Become Flagships of Import Substitution, by Ekaterina Blinova for Sputnikglobe. 03.19.2024.

    Russia is testing 100-percent domestically-made МС-21-310 and upgraded SJ-100 aircraft, which will soon replace the Airbus and Boeing planes presently operated by the nation's airlines.

    Western sanctions have only accelerated Russia's import substitution effort and innovation research.
    US and EU restrictions preventing plane-makers like Boeing and Airbus from providing spare parts, maintenance and technical support to Russia prompted the country to double down on producing its own short-haul and medium-haul passenger aircraft.

    "We are conducting [structural] strength testing of the MC-21 together with Yakovlev PJSC, the developers of the aircraft," Zichenkov told Nauchnaya Rossiya (lit. Scientific Russia). "In 2022, the MC-21 equipped with the Russian-made PD-14 engine and a domestic composite wing was certified by the Federal Air Transport Agency."

    The MC-21-310 is a new generation medium-haul airliner with capacity from 163 to 211 passengers.

    Russian aircraft designers have also overhauled the SJ-100, a new generation short-haul jet aircraft with up to 103 seats, to replace foreign-made spare parts and materials with domestic ones.

    "We are conducting frequency tests of SJ-100 prototypes to confirm the safety of flight tests and provide comprehensive information on the properties of modernized components made from domestic materials," Zichenkov continued. "This year, one of the updated and import-substituted SJ-100 aircraft successfully completed its flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. It was a prototype with Franco-Russian SaM146 engines, and now we are testing the strength of another SJ-100 aircraft part with the domestic PD-8 engine. The airliner is already preparing for flight tests."

    He explained that the main components of the SJ-100 airframe — including fuselage, wings, horizontal and vertical tails, pylons for mounting engines, landing gear and aircraft controls — are Russian-made.

    "We believe that parts made of domestic materials are in no way inferior to imported analogues and in some cases — for example, if we talk about the wing and empennage of the aircraft — they are superior," emphasized the expert.

    The MC-21 has become the first Russian long-haul aircraft with wings made of composite materials.

    Composites are made of two or more materials with different physical and chemical properties. They are typically less expensive, lighter, and more durable when compared with common materials. The share of composites in the MC-21 airframe amounts to 30 percent.

    The domestic composite materials for the plane's wing structure were developed by scientists from Moscow State University, nuclear energy agency Rosatom and aviation industry experts, according to Russian defense conglomerate Rostec. The MC-21-300 aircraft with the now-famous "black wing" made of domestic composites conducted its maiden flight on December 25, 2021.

    "As for the advantages of the composite, perhaps the most important of them is the lightness of composite components, as well as the absence of corrosion," explained Zichenkov. "If you take a sample of metal and composite of the same thickness, they could be almost similar in terms of strength, but the composite will be about 40–50 percent lighter."

    "If the airframe is lighter, more passengers and fuel can be accommodated, thereby increasing flight range and other important characteristics," the expert continued. "The reduction of aircraft weight has been one of the main goals of aviation throughout its history."

    Zichenkov emphasized that hybrid details which combine metal, composites and other components are even more promising.

    "Metal, for example, conducts electricity better [than the composite] and is more protected from lightning strikes," he said. "Therefore designers install a thin metal lightning protection mesh on the outer surface of the wing, which should divert discharges in the event of a lightning strike, that is, the composite wing must be additionally protected from the effects of lightning."

    Serial deliveries of MC-21 aircraft may begin in 2026, Rostec CEO Sergei Chemezov told reporters following Russian President Vladimir Putin’s February address to the Federal Assembly. He added that the tests will be completed as quickly as possible, but the exact end date is not yet known.
    While Russia's short-haul SJ-100s have been in operation since 2011, the MC-21-310 is expected to fill the niche of the nation's medium-haul airliner soon. Meanwhile, plans to produce all-Russian domestic long-haul aircraft are already underway.
    .
    https://sputnikglobe.com/20240319/russias-sj-100-and-mc-21-aircraft-have-become-flagships-of-import-substitution-1117427842.html

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    Post  Scorpius Sun Mar 24, 2024 9:19 pm

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