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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

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    Gazputin


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 16 Empty Tupolev SBJ demonstrator

    Post  Gazputin 08/12/23, 06:44 am

    yes the SBJ has a lot of similarities with the Mig-29 and Su-27 .... so much so the technology demonstrator will be ..

    "The maiden flight of what will eventually become a Russian supersonic business jet may happen in three to four years, but the demonstrator will be a rebuilt MiG-29 fighter jet, which will test the future aircraft’s body."

    https://www.rt.com/russia/471053-russian-supersonic-business-jet/


    nothing new there really .... they modified a Mig-21 to test the Tu-144 wing design
    the Mig-21I

    Russia has the parts-bin from hell ..... warehouses full of stuff

    and from the look of the actual design the pilot won't be able to see anything anyway .... and will need a video link
    so why not just make the demonstrator a drone and then you don't need to worry about killing test pilots
    and speed up the whole program
    they are working on a drone version of the Su-75 anyway ....


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 16 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic 08/12/23, 07:13 am

    https://aviation21.ru/samolyot-a320-sevshij-v-pshenichnom-pole-stanet-donorom-zapchastej/

    The A320 plane that landed in a wheat field will become a donor of spare parts
    12/07/2023, 15:34

    The Ural Airlines aircraft A320 RA-73805, which made an emergency landing on September 12 in a wheat field due to lack of fuel, will not be restored; the airliner will be dismantled for spare parts and written off. About itreport"News". Earlier, the general director and owner of the airline, Sergei Skuratov, said that the plane was not broken and would be restored, and the airliner would continue to fly.

    This development is due to the fact that MRO providers will not take responsibility for returning the aircraft to service without carrying out the necessary work to study the structural strength of the aircraft. Izvestia, citing its sources, notes that no one has yet conducted such tests. Sergei Skuratov said that the plane would not be able to take off from a wheat field, because it is necessary to build a runway, but this is labor-intensive construction and is not economically feasible. He also noted that the plane was insured

    Well, at the end spare parts for A320 are needed anyway. Maybe with this they can avoid cannibalising another aircraft, making this the cheapest option

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    Swgman_BK


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 16 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Swgman_BK 08/12/23, 08:02 am

    Earlier, the general director and owner of the airline, Sergei Skuratov, said that the plane was not broken and would be restored, and the airliner would continue to fly. wrote:

    Why not just let it die and invest in modernized Tu214s.. They dont have a choice. I would say MS-21s but Russia made the mistake of still buying Western communications equipment after bieng banned once already from getting US and European composite tech for the MS21 wing.. So now Russia has to push back MS21 introduction to 2025.. I dont think things will ever go back to where they were. The sooner Russian airlines get rid of their Western aircraft the better.. Maybe they can resell them to 3rd parties..

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #5 - Page 16 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #5

    Post  Kiko 08/12/23, 09:10 am

    =Western sanctions have revived Russian industry – Mishustin, 12.07.2023.

    The restrictions have prompted the development of domestic components, according to the prime minister.

    The sanctions imposed by the West on Russia have sparked a revival of the country's industrial and technological capacity, Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin stated on Wednesday.  

    Speaking at the international Russia EXPO exhibition, Mishustin noted that the numerous packages of sanctions “pumped out by the West have not led to the collapse of the Russian economy, as their authors expected,” adding that the country’s gross domestic product is expected to grow by 3% this year.  

    Russia has strengthened its technological sovereignty and is in a position to “restore its status as a great scientific and technological power,” the prime minister stated.  

    The restrictions have helped speed up the revival of Russian aircraft manufacturing, including the development of domestic landing gear, engines, avionics, electrical components, and composite parts, he added.

    Russia has been striving to develop a substitute for imported planes since the introduction of Western sanctions related to Ukraine. Leading aircraft manufacturers Boeing and Airbus were forced to stop providing parts, maintenance, and technical support to airlines and maintenance companies in Russia.

    “There are still questions left concerning the replacement of foreign components. But we can handle everything. And our engineers and designers are working hard on this,” the prime minister noted.   

    Among domestic aircraft under development are the single-aisle MC-21 airliner, which is currently undergoing trials, and the Sukhoi Superjet New, a version of the Superjet 100 regional jet made entirely from Russian-produced components.  

    According to government estimates, it will take up to five years to set up serial production of Russian-made planes to replace foreign aircraft.

    https://www.rt.com/business/588616-russian-industry-western-sanctions-mishustin/

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    Post  lancelot 08/12/23, 10:57 am

    Swgman_BK wrote:Why not just let it die and invest in modernized Tu214s.. They dont have a choice. I would say MS-21s but Russia made the mistake of still buying Western communications equipment after bieng banned once already from getting US and European composite tech for the MS21 wing.. So now Russia has to push back MS21 introduction to 2025.. I dont think things will ever go back to where they were. The sooner Russian airlines get rid of their Western aircraft the better.. Maybe they can resell them to 3rd parties..
    If wouldn't be surprised if serial production of the MS-21 happens before that for the Tu-214.

    Russia did not start the program to make Russian components for the MS-21 and SJ-100 to replace Western ones last year. This has been ongoing at least since 2018. Of course these components need to be properly tested to ensure they are reliable.

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    Post  Swgman_BK 08/12/23, 12:21 pm

    Russia did not start the program to make Russian components for the MS-21 and SJ-100 to replace Western ones last year. This has been ongoing at least since 2018. Of course these components need to be properly tested to ensure they are reliable. wrote:


    The communication and navigation equipment were only developed last year.. Previously they were supplied by Kilovac and some other American company (Jenkins I think). The stuff the airplane uses to communicate with ground control.. These are things Roselectronica developed in less than a few months after the sanctions. Meaning there was some laziness on Russia's part. If you can just make your own cheaper electronics in a few months why import in the 1st place and from unfriendly countries? Same with the Composite wing on the MS21. Russia ended up developing the most advanced Composite wing in the industry with Out of Autoclave composite molding techniques.. Something they wouldnt have if US companies were allowed to supply the composite wings.
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    Post  Swgman_BK 08/12/23, 12:31 pm

    If wouldn't be surprised if serial production of the MS-21 happens before that for the Tu-214. wrote:


    Tu214 production is like Il-96 production.. Both have production lines that can be restarted before February next year and return to churning out airplanes. But Russian airlines seem to have a hard on for imported airplanes rather than support the local industry. I would get it if Russian jets had a record of crashing (Cough cough 737 MAX cough cough) but they dont. The Tu214 has never had a fatal accident and the Il96 has had no accidents at all with all its operators!!..Cubana is very happy with their 3/4 Il96s and has been flying them since 1992 If I remember right. No accidents, no unreliability. Just many happy hours of flying. Infact Russian airlines are so unpatriotic that some filled MS-21 orders and then when delivery time approached they cancelled orders. Only Aeroflot remains with over 130 orders for the MS-21. The others bailed out.. Nothing stops Tu214s from bieng rebuilt except the 0 demand. Most airlines in Russia are probably waiting on the war to end so they get back into Boeings that are way more expensive to run and purchase in the 1st place.. So sad..

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    Post  sepheronx 08/12/23, 02:32 pm

    Recall back in the 90's and early 2000's of stories of aeroflot getting suitcases of money to make their decision on purchases.

    It has been a rude awakening for most now
    And some are still asleep thinking they can still import from the west. Don't forget, they do have politicians who thought they could export pork to Iran....

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    Post  GarryB 08/12/23, 03:09 pm

    and from the look of the actual design the pilot won't be able to see anything anyway .... and will need a video link
    so why not just make the demonstrator a drone and then you don't need to worry about killing test pilots
    and speed up the whole program
    they are working on a drone version of the Su-75 anyway ....

    They still need test pilots because telemetry doesn't really tell you how the aircraft feels to fly and what its vices might be.

    This is an airliner so there is no way it will be an unmanned platform even with no pilots.

    Well, at the end spare parts for A320 are needed anyway. Maybe with this they can avoid cannibalising another aircraft, making this the cheapest option

    Makes sense... there is no point in developing the capacity to check its structure when it is just a gap filler till Russian planes are ready to replace it... the extra parts will be useful for other examples in use in Russia.

    The sooner Russian airlines get rid of their Western aircraft the better.. Maybe they can resell them to 3rd parties..

    They included western parts in their aircraft in the hopes to attract western buyers, there is no reason why they didn't do a Russian version except there was no money for that because Russian Airlines were happy with their western aircraft and western systems so an all Russian aircraft was not funded.

    Now it is.

    If wouldn't be surprised if serial production of the MS-21 happens before that for the Tu-214.

    I would like to see the Russian military adopt the Tu-214 in a wide range of roles to replace existing obsolete types currently in use, and also to develop the Tu-330 transport that was proposed but not built.

    Meaning there was some laziness on Russia's part.

    Nothing to do with laziness, it is the bastards running Russian airlines who prefer spending big money on western systems instead of supporting Russian companies and suppliers. Well now those pricks can't undermine Russia and will only have Russian companies to choose from... but I think an overhaul of Russian airlines regarding who makes decisions should also be done because there are clearly lots of 5th columnists there still.

    If you can just make your own cheaper electronics in a few months why import in the 1st place and from unfriendly countries?

    The western equipment is developed and mature and in production, while new Russian stuff is untested and not in serial production and most Russian avionics companies don't have world wide support structures set up to support their products anywhere in the world.

    Do you buy your cellphones or do you make your own?

    Same with the Composite wing on the MS21. Russia ended up developing the most advanced Composite wing in the industry with Out of Autoclave composite molding techniques.. Something they wouldnt have if US companies were allowed to supply the composite wings.

    Yes, the sanctions are backfiring massively by forcing Russia to develop its own technologies and using new tooling and equipment and new ideas and specialists the new stuff they are creating wont be 1960s stuff, it will be brand new stuff that in many ways is better than the stuff they have been getting from the west.

    And compounding that they own it so they can sell to the rest of the world if they choose too so new competition... something the west never likes.

    But of course made necessary by the sanctions, and the treachery of the airlines decision makers...

    Most airlines in Russia are probably waiting on the war to end so they get back into Boeings that are way more expensive to run and purchase in the 1st place.. So sad..

    So you do understand it is the airlines, and what they probably don't understand is that things are not going back to normal after this conflict is over.

    The west is interested in this conflict lasting as long as possible and what they don't realise is that the longer it takes the less Kiev will control... if they understood that they would try to end things now before Russia starts to change tactics and starts taking territory...

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic 08/12/23, 09:34 pm

    Even if the sanctions would end now, Russia should still put large import duties for private airlines wanted to buy foreign aircrafts and ban Aeroflot and its related airlines to buy them.

    Russia has made massive efforts to rebuild a civilian aircraft industry.

    It is better to have a few more years with some restrictions than have so much money thrown abroad that is fundamental to support the aircraft industry.
    If S7 and other airlines do not want that, they can still move to Poland or Romania and buy all the Boeing and Airbus that they want

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    Post  Swgman_BK 09/12/23, 05:00 am

    Do you buy your cellphones or do you make your own? wrote:

    I cant make my own phone..🤔 Big difference. I am forced to buy. Russia can make EVERYTHING she imports. As was shown by the communications equipment she made in mere months after the Western contractors left..

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    Post  Swgman_BK 09/12/23, 05:37 am

    The western equipment is developed and mature and in production, while new Russian stuff is untested and not in serial production and most Russian avionics companies don't have world wide support structures set up to support their products anywhere in the world. wrote:

    Russian equipment is very underrated sometimes.. Russia's aviation sector has never really cared about exports because the US just threatens any countries that show interest in Russian hardware. If early UAC CEOs had their way, the PD14 wouldn't exist. Plans for a PD14 only came up later. Otherwise Pratt and Whitney was the sole contractor for the MS21 engines. Russia was also quick to contract Gas turbine development to a Ukrainian firm until something went wrong diplomatically and they told NPO Saturn to do it instead. One would wonder, Why not just tell NPO Saturn to do it from the onset. Or Klimov. It culminates into wasted time and money switching suppliers. Its like Russia never learns. Kamaz has been building trucks alone for decades in Russia. Until a brilliant Kamaz Director thought it would be good to use Daimler parts (Rear diff), American engines and a German ZF gearbox on the K5 and K6. Today Diamler stopped supplying those and the K5 and K6 have to undergo reengineering. Luckily they had a Kamaz inline 6 motor ready. And based on what I hear KATE is working on a new heavy-duty gearbox (Nothing about this on their website outside of the 9 speed auto they made for the Aurus Senat so its safe to say this is getting imported too on the K5 and K6). The sooner Russia realizes her talents m the sooner Russia could eclipse Japan and Germany by PPP and even Nominally if the Ruble grows back to 50RUB a dollar coupled to GDP growth from reindustrialization.

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    Post  GarryB 09/12/23, 05:26 pm

    I cant make my own phone..🤔 Big difference. I am forced to buy. Russia can make EVERYTHING she imports. As was shown by the communications equipment she made in mere months after the Western contractors left..

    But you can make your own phone, you just need to quit your job and spend millions of dollars working out the technology and design concepts and in a decade or two you will have your very own cell phone that is probably no where near as good as a phone you could buy right not from China.

    I can understand you don't want to make your own phone, it would take up all your time and focus to achieve something that is not really a valuable thing to master.

    Just because you can do everything doesn't mean you should take the time and use the resources to do so.

    Strategically critical things like weapons and nuclear things or areas you already have world class capacity in are areas you should continue, but trying to do everything for yourself is a waste of resources when good quality alternatives are available on the international market.

    During WWII the Soviet Union received enormous amounts of trucks via lend lease... it would be very stupid to then waste resources making your own trucks unless the trucks you were getting were no good for the climate or the situation they were used in.

    Case in point the Tokarev rifle during WWII was not well liked by all Soviet soldiers because it was heavier and more complex and more work to look after than a bolt action rifle. The professional and elite soldiers liked it better than the conscripts liked it. The Germans very much like it.

    As was shown by the communications equipment she made in mere months after the Western contractors left..

    This is different... when Russia finds a technology they want they will normally buy it, but if the west blocks their access to what they have bought via sanctions then they just ignore the IP rights and property rights and just make it anyway. They don't steal technology and design for fun, they will generally buy it first and take it second.

    The west is being hostile by denying Russia access to technology it has paid for, just the same as Ukrainian companies refused to deliver engines and propulsion systems and aircraft that Russia had paid for too... in such a situation Russia will just look at what they have and recreate it so they can continue using it, but often the process of reverse engineering it means you learn its design inside and out and with the clever people they have often they can come up with improvements or completely new designs to do the same job cheaper or better.

    Buying foreign technology where there is a gap in Russia is OK, they are buying something they don't already make like Thermal Imagers with Thales or electric trains with German companies or even Helicopter Carriers with the French again... when they stiff the Russians because of petty western sanctions Russia ends up with the western designs and so making Russian alternatives or solutions becomes easier or the technology they have access to can be used as a base to make their own as in the case of the new helicopter carriers they are making or the thermal imaging scopes they are making or the new electric trains they are making.

    In the case of cell phones there are lots of different countries that make very good phones and it would be a very difficult market to get decent market share in, though in the case of cell phones they might have a niche encrypted secure phones market perhaps tested and supported by Russian computer security companies that could be used by Russian government users and select high standing businesses as a niche market tool protected from western intel services, but the need for Russia to replace Apple is not there. They don't have a big enough market to make it profitable enough... and I would say the same for motor cars.

    For critical infrastructure like chips going into weapons and nuclear power stations and hospital equipment or satellites etc etc then of course Russia should make its own, and it would be a good idea to invest in something beyond what we make now, perhaps photon based electronics with fibre optics etc... but making gamers chips is not going to be profitable or critical... buying from China and as BRICS expands the countries Russia can trade with is only going to massively increase making a lot of things easier.

    Russia was also quick to contract Gas turbine development to a Ukrainian firm until something went wrong diplomatically and they told NPO Saturn to do it instead.

    To be fair engine and propulsion system and transport plane development was all invested into the Ukraine during the Cold War period and Russia really didn't have any reason to change that for quite some time until Ukraine actually made it necessary. Lots of interesting projects got shelved because they were perceived as potential threats to Antonov designs, the NK-93 propfan was rather interesting too, amongst other aircraft types and ship propulsion systems too.

    Russia bought from Ukraine because it was busy rebuilding all sorts of other areas of her economy and industry, so that delay helped take the pressure off having to replace everything at one time.

    Russia is expanding its production base into areas it previously subcontracted out to other countries... Belarus was optics and Ukraine was engines and transport planes and various missiles and rockets etc etc, but Russia has done a rather competent job of replacing the important things but also a step further... they are no longer looking at things in isolation.... they are making armoured vehicle families and they are looking at a soldiers kit as a set rather than separate pieces... the result is that their super soldier kits are getting lighter and better and multifunction equipment is replacing purpose built single use items in a range of different roles.

    As an example a Naval Spetsnaz soldier used to carry two rifles and two pistols and a grenade launcher... one rifle and one pistol for underwater use and one rifle and one pistol for above water use and a 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher... the new ADS rifle and their new pistols can fire standard 5.45 x 39mm ammo and a special 5,45 x 39mm underwater cartridge, and a 9x19mm normal pistol round and a special 9x19mm underwater pistole round too, so one rifle, one pistol and one grenade launcher. Other equipment and protection and clothing has been upgraded too, including French rebreather equipment which they likely make themselves now that France probably has stopped their licence for it...

    Why not just tell NPO Saturn to do it from the onset. Or Klimov.

    To be fair both companies have been working hard picking up the slack left by Motor Sich who used to make the engines for Russian helicopters and entire propulsion systems for Russian ships. They have also been working on 5th gen fighter engines, and other projects too.

    It culminates into wasted time and money switching suppliers. Its like Russia never learns.

    Not at all, while Ukraine was making engines for Russia their engine companies would work on other more pressing things like new engines for Tu-160s and PAKDAs, and of course the new 5th gen fighter engines and of course new engines for PAK DP.

    And not to mention the PD range of engines from PD-8 up to PD-35... they are not previous generation old bits of crap like the Ukraine was making and now refusing to deliver... they are state of the art brand new. Russia was also making new engines for the Mi-38 and Mi-26, and plenty of other engines too that they previously had gaps in capability.

    Russia can hold its head up high and say it didn't screw western companies or the Ukraine... it was the reverse that is true so Russia can make copies and then next gen replacements for each with a pretty clear conscience.

    Until a brilliant Kamaz Director thought it would be good to use Daimler parts (Rear diff), American engines and a German ZF gearbox on the K5 and K6.

    Well that was stupid or traitorous... but was the K5 and K6 for Russian customers or for export and trying to appeal to other customers in the west?

    Either way buying foreign parts in this case is wrong, I totally agree, just as their airlines buying western planes and western parts for new Russian planes.

    I think Putin has the message that the west hates Russia and wants them all dead so perhaps new rules and guidelines removing partnerships with western companies should be made more clear and plain to Russian companies who seem to think all the money in the world is in the west so if you sell to anyone it has to be westerners... of course the reality is that the west is rich because they are bastards and thieves and will screw you every chance they get... like this current conflict.

    The sooner Russia realizes her talents m the sooner Russia could eclipse Japan and Germany by PPP and even Nominally if the Ruble grows back to 50RUB a dollar coupled to GDP growth from reindustrialization.

    Such measures are BS and tell you nothing at all. When the US gets placed number one all the time you know it is bollocks and not a scale that is worth anything... when the companies that assess such things are based in the US and give such biased numbers then it is worthless.

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    Post  Swgman_BK 10/12/23, 01:25 am

    They included western parts in their aircraft in the hopes to attract western buyers, there is no reason why they didn't do a Russian version except there was no money for that because Russian Airlines were happy with their western aircraft and western systems so an all Russian aircraft was not funded. wrote:

    That is Russia's problem. Always trying to give things a chance with the West. Russia needs a more radical hardline leader.. You cant keep hoping to do business with people who have hated you since the 1600s and invaded you many times in the past. This was a very foolish proposition by Russia to even think of selling MS21s to Western countries. It was never gonna work.


    1. They were never gonna get certified to fly in Western countries for no reason other than weeding out the competition just like what the US is doing to Huawei. Or what the US is doing with CAATSA. Buy Russian weapons and we sanction you.. So you are allowed to buy US weapons only.. Indonesia is a victim (Forced to buy 2nd hand F15s over brand new SU35s) and Egypt (Forced to not buy anything after the SU35 and Mig35 deal was crushed). India too but they flipped one in the USs face.

    2. The anti-Russian sentiment in the West is so great people wouldnt agree to fly in anything that isnt a Boeing especially Americans. Europeans might give the MS21 a try but Americans are so anti-Russian they wouldnt.

    3. Boeing was gonna complain to US congress that Russian airplanes are selling in America and its disturbing their sales which is not very democratic..or some rubbish like that..
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    Post  Swgman_BK 10/12/23, 01:34 am

    But you can make your own phone, you just need to quit your job and spend millions of dollars working out the technology and design concepts and in a decade or two you will have your very own cell phone that is probably no where near as good as a phone you could buy right not from China. wrote:

    I dont have the know how to do it. What Russia does it like eating out everyday for no reason other than that you can instead of cooking only for KFC to ban you from their stores and then you have start adjusting to life with home cooked food. Russia can make things just as good as Western products so quality is not an excuse. Money isnt either because Russia is a massive microeconomy that can source 98% of all it needs locally.. Meaning stuff is paid for in Rubles that are VERY plentiful in Russia. Thats how Russia can afford an ungodly amount of mordern nuclear submarines and 1000 4th gen airplanes.. Spending in Rubles. The UK is nominally a larger economy than Russia but cant afford more than 10 nuclear submarines. Those they have are built with a lot of imported tech.. Russia is different though. Money is not a problem when everything you need is priced in money you print.
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    Post  Swgman_BK 10/12/23, 01:48 am

    Well that was stupid or traitorous... but was the K5 and K6 for Russian customers or for export and trying to appeal to other customers in the west? wrote:

    The K5 was a Russian product mainly. Not Russia only but Russias sphere of influence so Belarus, Kazakhstan, Ukraine etc... It was designed for this market.🤔 Kamaz has never sold anything beyond that. So the Western components surprise me. Why ignore local producers for a local product in order to hire more expensive western tech firms to do it for you? ChTz-UralTrak is available. They make great diesel engines that have been proven in tanks. Why get a Cummins? I mean a Cummins as an option is ok but not as the only offering that the truck is designed around. Tutaevsky Engine Plant too. They make Kirovetz tractor engines.. Why not let them do it? They have been doing it since the 1920s too.. Like Cummins..
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic 10/12/23, 02:52 am

    Swgman_BK wrote:
    The anti-Russian sentiment in the West is so great people wouldnt agree to fly in anything that isnt a Boeing especially Americans. Europeans might give the MS21 a try but Americans are so anti-Russian they wouldnt.
    .

    I would love to fly on MC-21 once it is ready. Possibly by that time the name would be Yak-242.

    The main safety risks would be terrorism from western agents to cause accidents in order to discredit the project.

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    Post  Swgman_BK 10/12/23, 03:49 am

    I kind of like the way things are going. The sanctions on Russia will empower the rest of the world to work hard and bypass Western sanctions. Frankly, After Russia used her own local industry to dampen sanctions, nobody cares about US sanctions anymore. And it provides more countries with alternatives when they get sanctioned by the West. Cubana couldnt buy Boeings and they instead kept flying wit Il96s and Tu214s. Which they have been very happy with. If only Russia developed a mordernized Semiconductor Industry, they would have a lot of customers in Africa. Kamaz trucks and Russian airplanes do the job and are almost half the price of Western equivalents..
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    Post  lancelot 10/12/23, 04:16 am

    Swgman_BK wrote:ChTz-UralTrak is available. They make great diesel engines that have been proven in tanks. Why get a Cummins? I mean a Cummins as an option is ok but not as the only offering that the truck is designed around. Tutaevsky Engine Plant too. They make Kirovetz tractor engines.. Why not let them do it? They have been doing it since the 1920s too.. Like Cummins..
    Tank engines are made for high power to weight. But the lifetime and reliability aren't that hot.
    In Russia large transport vehicles typically use YaMZ diesel engines.

    Swgman_BK wrote:I kind of like the way things are going. The sanctions on Russia will empower the rest of the world to work hard and bypass Western sanctions. Frankly, After Russia used her own local industry to dampen sanctions, nobody cares about US sanctions anymore. And it provides more countries with alternatives when they get sanctioned by the West. Cubana couldnt buy Boeings and they instead kept flying wit Il96s and Tu214s. Which they have been very happy with. If only Russia developed a mordernized Semiconductor Industry, they would have a lot of customers in Africa. Kamaz trucks and Russian airplanes do the job and are almost half the price of Western equivalents..
    The thing is, these African countries don't have what Russia most needs, which is technology. At best they can provide some resources which for whatever reason are hard to extract in Russia. The idea that Russia can invent everything itself is ridiculous. They have about the same population as Japan.
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    Post  Swgman_BK 10/12/23, 04:20 am

    I realize this but my point was that those tank engine makers also make regular diesel engines that go on trucks and tractors. They could have been contracted for the job.

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    Post  lancelot 10/12/23, 04:37 am

    Swgman_BK wrote:I realize this but my point was that those tank engine makers also make regular diesel engines that go on trucks and tractors. They could have been contracted for the job.
    Several people in the sector have complained that Russia lacks the industrial policy it had in Soviet times with regards to diesel engine development. I wouldn't know about that since I think in several cases the Soviet diesel technology lagged even back then. It started out with licensed Western engines. It's only gotten worse with modern electronic injection.

    There are exceptions of course. The V-2 tank engine or the M-503 naval engine seem to be genuine Soviet developments. But both those engines should have been put out to pasture a long time ago.
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    Post  kvs 10/12/23, 04:52 am

    The current state of Russian industries reflects the economics policy over the last 30 years. When Putin arrived he did not re-impose
    Soviet command economics. In fact, he went with the neo-liberal flow and had Gref, Kudrin, Illarionov and other clowns on his team.
    Aeroflot managers were part of this ecosystem that emerged from the 1990s collapse. It is a miracle that there is anything left and
    Russia is able to develop the PD-14/35, etc. The economics argument that it is cheaper to buy existing products than build your own
    basically always wins when such products are available. You need a government to force domestic replacement. The Russian
    government ended up doing enough to make this feasible now. So Putin was no Yeltsin.

    It is still early in the new era of western sanctions. We will see how it is going by 2030.

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    Post  lancelot 10/12/23, 05:09 am

    kvs wrote:The current state of Russian industries reflects the economics policy over the last 30 years.   When Putin arrived he did not re-impose Soviet command economics.   In fact, he went with the neo-liberal flow and had Gref, Kudrin, Illarionov and other clowns on his team.
    Aeroflot managers were part of this ecosystem that emerged from the 1990s collapse.   It is a miracle that there is anything left and
    Russia is able to develop the PD-14/35, etc.   The economics argument that it is cheaper to buy existing products than build your own
    basically always wins when such products are available.   You need a government to force domestic replacement.   The Russian
    government ended up doing enough to make this feasible now.   So Putin was no Yeltsin.

    It is still early in the new era of western sanctions.   We will see how it is going by 2030.
    Putin inherited a broken down economy. A lot of the Soviet technological processes and key technologies ended up outside the Russian Federation after the collapse. Some people left the Soviet sphere entirely and went to the West, or whatever. There was also little to no technological development or modernization of industry while Yeltsin was around.
    Putin was also never going to get the oligarchs to quickly just go away. The best he could do was reduce their power to a manageable level. That he succeeded at it is in itself a feat.

    Still, it gets incredibly annoying how government penny pinching and lack of planning seriously delays projects. For example Admiral Gorshkov frigate design approved by the military in 2003. Laid down in 2006. Those three years involved public procurement and waiting for funding to show up. Then, as usual, more delays as funding trickles down the MIC to the component suppliers so they can build something. This is slow as heck. Hopefully the USC reorganization will fix this. But I kind of doubt it. Having a bank reorganize a technological led corporation is typically a disaster.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic 10/12/23, 05:22 am

    kvs wrote:The economics argument that it is cheaper to buy existing products than build your own basically always wins when such products are available

    It is not cheaper if you consider the all system.

    The new aircrafts from abroad have to be paid, and also the spare parts and sometimes also maintenance contracts. All money that flies out of the country. If you are a private airline you do not care about it (unless someone forces you to) but Aeroflot is not a private airline, so if they do not buy russian planes basically the government will have to pay each thing twice: once for buying the foreign equipment and again to develop its local product (that cannot be paid by the users, dice they are buying foreign stuff).

    Furthermore in the 1990s there was no urgency to spend a lot of money developing in hurry brand new aircrafts. They were there. Il-96 and Tu-204 had just been certified and the engines were Russian. Not buying them has been a criminal act.
    Aeroflot did not save any money buying airbus and Boeing instead of Tu-204 and Il-96, its managers (and some russian politicians involved with the deals) were just corrupt and took bribes from western companies.

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    Post  Swgman_BK 10/12/23, 05:54 am

    The economics argument that it is cheaper to buy existing products than build your own basically always wins when such products are available. wrote:

    You are right in what you said. This is always true until its not true anymore..🤔 Like when you get sanctioned. Russia found this out many times and is still in denial.. They still believe they can fix things with the West who isnt willing to fix things.

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