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    Western propaganda #2

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    Post  kvs Sat May 18, 2024 8:28 am

    The "Putin is a tyrant" narrative in the NATzO propaganda bubble is interesting. It tells me that the maggots pushing this propaganda really do not
    like what a "dictator" can do. If the "dictator" is not their tool, then he can shut down their rackets and control. These maggots act through
    corruption and institutional seizure. A dictator can bypass this very effectively. The word "dictator" is BS in this context, it is any leader
    who is not beholden to special interests and has enough support in the government system to impose the will of the electorate. The tag
    dictator is chutzpah monkey speak. The actual dictators (deciders) are yapping about some "dictator" that frustrates their plans.

    You can see this shrill hysteria about Donald Trump. Even though he was nowhere near Putin in terms of legitimate power wielding and compromised
    to a terminal degree, he is still treated as an existential threat. This is imply because he could engage some independent action and support a
    faction of the elites that is not deranged with global domination.

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    Post  andalusia Tue May 28, 2024 1:55 am

    Today the US was celebrating Memorial Day.  I saw this article which has a very good take on US propaganda about US troops fighting for freedom:

    https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2024/05/27/memorial-day-is-a-day-for-remembering-the-victims-of-war/

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    Post  higurashihougi Wed May 29, 2024 4:09 am

    @andalusia: And of course Russia does not take a blind eye to this.

    https://www.rt.com/news/598333-biden-ww2-us-antonov/

    Russia rebukes Biden’s claim that US won WWII
    Such statements are part of “psychological warfare”, Moscow’s ambassador to Washington DC has said


    Moscow will fight all attempts to distort history, the Russian ambassador to Washington Anatoly Antonov has declared, in response to a claim by US President Joe Biden that the US was responsible for winning the Second World War.

    Biden visited Arlington Cemetery in the capital to pay respects to fallen US troops on Memorial Day and to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. The president told the gathering that the servicemen who are buried at the cemetery had fought in “every major conflict in history” and, among other things, managed to “defeat fascism.” On June 6, 1944, the US soldiers “took to the beaches of Normandy and liberated a continent and literally saved the world,” he claimed.

    The president’s remarks are part of a campaign by Washington, Ambassador Antonov wrote on Telegram on Monday, which is aimed at “cynical belittlement and even disavowal of the decisive role of the Soviet Union in crushing the fascists” during that conflict, which in Russia is called the Great Patriotic War (June 1941-May 1945).

    “There is not a single country in the world that has endured more than we have in the struggle against Nazi Germany and its satellites. Almost all of Europe fought against the Red Army on the fronts of the Great Patriotic War. These facts cannot be disputed,” he said.

    According to the ambassador, the claims by Biden and other US politicians are dictated by the current state of relations between Washington and Moscow. “Such misinformation is part of psychological warfare against Russia. We will fight against it and will not allow the distortion of history,” the envoy promised.

    “We will not let the world forget that our people sacrificed 27 million lives [in the fight against the Nazis]. It was Soviet soldiers who hoisted the Victory Banner atop the Reichstag in Berlin,” Antonov pointed out.

    Russia’s foreign ministry also commented on Biden’s claim in a statement on Monday, saying that it “would have been strange to expect that those who finance the neo-Nazi regime in Kiev and supply it with weapons, would feel gratitude to the peoples of the Soviet Union for the victory over Nazism.” By promoting “American exceptionalism,” Washington is actually committing “a betrayal of its own anti-fascist past,” it said.

    Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev, who is now the deputy head of Russia’s Security Council, told TASS on Tuesday that the statement by 81-year-old Biden about the US winning the Second World War is “not senile dementia, but a conscious line towards rewriting history. It is a part of a campaign against our country.”

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    Post  kvs Wed May 29, 2024 6:56 am

    The relevant statistic that is missing in the above is that the Reich expended 80% of its resources on the eastern front. America was only part of the 20% that was expended
    elsewhere. The western front in Europe only opened up in the last 11 months of the war and the Reich soldiers did not fight to the bitter end like they did on the eastern front.
    This is chutzpah monkey historical fakery where showing up when the Reich was collapsing is supposed to be the cause of the collapse.

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    Post  lancelot Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:59 pm

    And this guy is supposed to be an expert retired US sonar man/submariner.
    Western propaganda #2 - Page 26 Image100

    Oniks has over 600 km range. He's using the numbers for the nerfed export version. Laughing
    I would say well over 600 km considering the much faster Zircon has a stated 1000 km range.

    Western propaganda #2 - Page 26 Image101

    Compare a Virginia submarine weapons package with the Kazan and then laugh your ass off.

    Virginia I-II:
    12x VLS cells with Tomahawk subsonic cruise missile.
    4x 21" torpedo tubes with Mk-48 torpedo or Harpoon subsonic anti-ship missile.

    Kazan:
    32x VLS cells with Oniks (Mach 3) or Zircon (Mach 9) supersonic or hypersonic cruise missile. Or Kalibr subsonic cruise missile.
    10x 21" torpedo tubes with Fizik-2 torpedo.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 14, 2024 5:04 am

    You don't get to stay being an expert if you reveal Russian superiority based on real facts as opposed to export weapons performance or western estimates.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jun 14, 2024 5:42 am

    In the stream of "suggestions" I get on Facebook, there is a constant flood of specific "profiles".
    Those are military related - for an obvious reason.
    The level of its retardation is beyond belief, and can be beaten up only by the double dose of retardation in comments.
    Honestly, I suspect those are just clickbaits, because in most cases they can't even identify what they share on photos. Like showing 667 type submarine with a signature "Kazan".
    What is clear there, is a fact that English speaking audience is retarded en masse. And filled with shit. They can't make any reasonable analysis because that shit is coming out of any single case.
    It is an end effect of wide spread and massive propaganda that starts from an early age and surrounds people there for their entire lives.
    I remember when I was a teenager, and we were playing Harpoon Naval Warfare like there was no tomorrow Laughing
    What grabbed my attention from the beginning was that every parameter of Soviet gear was downgraded if compared to th US made. By a serious factor.
    Imagine our shock, where we have found that not only those parameters were downgraded in the official stats, but the game algorithms were downgrading it even further, without any notice.
    It was a cheat play with counterfeited carts.
    But this is how this propaganda is being infused.
    From every single direction, 24/7.
    And this is a reason why the west - in general - is incapable of dealing with Russia, who stands firmly on a solid ground.
    Russkie don't play matrix.

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    Post  Arrow Fri Jun 14, 2024 6:26 am

    Virginia I-II: 12x VLS cells with Tomahawk subsonic cruise missile. 4x 21" torpedo tubes with Mk-48 torpedo or Harpoon subsonic anti-ship missile. Kazan: 32x VLS cells with Oniks (Mach 3) or Zircon (Mach 9) supersonic or hypersonic cruise missile. Or Kalibr subsonic cruise missile. 10x 21" torpedo tubes with Fizik-2 torpedo. wrote:

    It is not the end. Kazan can go to a depth of 600m, if not more, and is much more automated.
    The only thing we don't know is what about the acoustic signature, but we won't find out about it.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:35 am

    You can assume it being more quiet than any given western sub, only because of its construction.
    It is double hulled submarine, which makes it easier to isolate sounds of the machinery.
    There are three main sources of submarine noise, which are screw, laminar flow noise, and machinery.
    Both screw and flow is being determined by technology and engineering.
    Russkie were second to none in every flow engineering like forever. They have a long lasting and outstanding experience in both aeronautic and laminar flows. Every single submarine they were constructing in the last 70 years was more advance shaped than any competitor, and it is just enough to compare the shapes and lines.
    Screw noise is dealt with its shape, and no matter what the Angloids will say, it is just a matter of mathematics.
    Tell me, who owned the best mathematicians forever?
    The third source of noises are the ones that are coming from inside of the sum - working agrehats, engines, rotation/vibration of the shafts etc.
    If you have a double hull structure, it means that not only every system can be isolated from the hull with different sort of absorption pads, but you have it all isolated from the external hull. It is spaced, with an additional layer of water that can be used as an additional silencer.
    Every single story of how the Soviet subs were inferior to the US made is based on the quotes nobody can really challenge, not being an active submariner.
    You cant argue noise levels or quality of sonar systems if not experienced first hand.
    Everything other can be only based on logics.

    But what was a fact, is that already in the end of 60s, Soviet submarine construction was unprecedented in both scale and the innovation level.
    What we do know, is the fact that Soviet subs were faster, dived deeper, carried more ordnance, and were manned by much smaller crews.
    It is a basic fact that simply speaks of the technical condition. Objective, and can't be challenged by the propaganda.
    Second to that, Soviet subs carried more advanced, longer ranged, and much more versatile ordnance.
    You don't construct a weapon system that operates in 100km range not having on board equiplemt that will allow you to use it - it would have been a pointless struggle.
    So either we consider the Soviets to be dumb or that they did have the systems allowing using of those weapon systems.
    It is simple logic that contests the Angloids mantras. Those don't adds up, as easy as that...

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    Post  Arrow Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:51 am

    Russkie were second to none in every flow engineering like forever. They have a long lasting and outstanding experience in both aeronautic and laminar flows. Every single submarine they were constructing in the last 70 years was more advance shaped than any competitor, and it is just enough to compare the shapes and lines. wrote:

    Certainly on SSN-class ships. They have always had beautiful lines. The ships of the 667 SSBN family class looked a bit worse in terms of lineage due to quite long SLBM missiles. However, they improved it in 955A, which has beautiful lines and the missile superstructure is no longer visible.

    The anechoic coating also has a significant impact on the reduction of laminar and internal noise. The Russians are apparently very good when it comes to these coatings.
    Apparently they wanted to go even further and spray the hull with some special polymers to further reduce the noise of water flowing around the hull. However, the project probably failed because they needed a lot of it for cruises.
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    Post  Arrow Fri Jun 14, 2024 11:01 am

    However, I came across information that Yasen M-class ships have only one hull? I don't know how much truth there is in this?
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    Post  Hole Fri Jun 14, 2024 11:12 am

    You cant argue noise levels or quality of sonar systems if not experienced first hand.
    There is propably a "war mode" on Russian subs which is much quieter than the usual peace time mode of travel.
    Was likely only used a few times during the Cold War 1.0, so any western claims of loud Russian subs are BS.
    They never witnessed one in the most quiet mode.

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    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 14, 2024 11:21 am

    Arrow wrote:However, I came across information that Yasen M-class ships have only one hull? I don't know how much truth there is in this?
    It uses double hulled construction in some sections and single hulled in others. It is basically single hulled but has double hull in some parts to make the hull more streamlined. Advances in machine quieting probably mean they can get the desired noise without double hull in some places. The new nuclear reactor it uses has integral construction. The reactor including steam generators is inside a single unified block. And it can operate with natural circulation in certain power modes, stopping all the reactor pumps.

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    Post  Arrow Fri Jun 14, 2024 11:32 am

    nd it can operate with natural circulation in certain power modes, stopping all the reactor pumps. wrote:


    Yes, but American submarine have been using this solution for a long time.
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    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 14, 2024 11:37 am

    Arrow wrote:Yes, but American submarine have been using this solution for a long time.
    "Long" as in like with the Seawolf I think. It is a 1990s technology.

    You have to remember most of the US nuclear submarines are still Los Angeles class ones. They have 24 Los Angeles class, 3 Seawolf, 22 Virginia class.
    Of which of course only a fraction are in service because of maintenance issues. But visit the US Navy pages on Wikipedia for these subs and this is not reported there. If you go to Russian Navy pages they strenuously list all submarines being repaired as if they aren't part of the roster.

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    Post  kvs Fri Jun 14, 2024 12:16 pm

    The noisy Russian subs narrative is tired and retarded. It is the same BS as the zero cross section stealth of the F-22. The morons
    can't even tell that its enormous rear rudders would be ideal reflectors no matter the RAM coating. Targets are not engaged exclusively from
    the front.

    We have no data on Soviet and Russian submarine acoustics. The yanquis bleat a lot about their innate superiority but never supply such data.
    Thus all of the yammering about noise levels is pulled straight from the ass.

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    Post  Arrow Fri Jun 14, 2024 1:51 pm

    "Long" as in like with the Seawolf I think. It is a 1990s technology. wrote:

    Ok, I once came across information that there is a reactor in Ohio with natural circulation at low speeds, especially since the SSBN patrols areas at low speeds to avoid detection.
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    Post  lancelot Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:12 pm

    Arrow wrote:Ok, I once came across information that there is a reactor in Ohio with natural circulation at low speeds, especially since the SSBN patrols areas at low speeds to avoid detection.
    Maybe. But I was talking about attack subs. The Ohio was commissioned in 1981. But the Seawolf is from 1997.

    I also haven't heard of those reactors having the integral design.
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    Post  Arrow Fri Jun 14, 2024 2:51 pm

    As for Ohio.  Perhaps because the SSBN is larger, it was easier to install a convection reactor there.  With technical progress, they were also installed on smaller SNNs.  Generally, modern SNNs or SSBNs also have active mechanical vibration suppression systems and active noise suppression, etc Russian submarines have smaller crews and are larger, e.g. YASEN M to Virginia.  They can install many interesting systems and solutions for noise reduction, etc
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    Post  Arrow Sat Jun 15, 2024 12:43 am

    "Why did these people drag the latest submarine into the Atlantic? The composition of the anti-submarine forces that the United States deployed against our frigate and the Kazan is enormous, and we can safely guarantee that after these exercises, one of our submarines will lose even the small combat value that it has, simply because its hydroacoustic portrait will be written off completely, at all depths and travel modes. After this, “Kazan” will be flogged from tens or hundreds of miles.
    And the pair of SGARs, which the United States involved in surveillance, guarantee that she will not be able to tear herself away from surveillance for even a minute.
    What's wrong with all these people? Why are they doing all this?"

    What do you think? The submarine wasn't sailing in ultra-quiet mode, was it? Could the US find out anything about Yasen M's characteristics?

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 15, 2024 5:59 am

    What is clear there, is a fact that English speaking audience is retarded en masse. And filled with shit.

    To be fair as part of that English speaking audience I would say many do just go with the flow and are not prepared to go against the widely accepted views of western propaganda and that a few that are trying to sell the propaganda message of the west tend to be very vocal and seem to have plenty of time to share their thoughts.

    Honestly I have noticed a vast increase of westerners going to YT channels like Indian news channels to find unbiased news regarding BRICS and Ukraine and even Israel and celebrating Russia and China and other countries of the south for standing up to the colonial west.

    Recent elections in the west seem to confirm a real shift of people no longer believing the narrative and the propaganda, but of course it will take rather more than that to deal with the monster...

    Western propaganda #2 - Page 26 14385114

    They can't make any reasonable analysis because that shit is coming out of any single case.

    If they start thinking about the truth the whole rainbow structure falls down so they just take the pieces of the puzzle they are given and make the picture on the box and tell how obvious and easy a jigsaw puzzle is when there are only three pieces...

    Putin bad, Russia bad, West good.

    Bad means always at fault and always meddling, and good means never bad and never wrong.

    It is an end effect of wide spread and massive propaganda that starts from an early age and surrounds people there for their entire lives.

    Opportunities to make a good living dry up very quickly if you pick the wrong path.

    It is not the end. Kazan can go to a depth of 600m, if not more, and is much more automated.
    The only thing we don't know is what about the acoustic signature, but we won't find out about it.

    Another factor is that the US was making its subs out of non spec steel, so parts of their subs could fail unexpectedly when put under stress...

    Screw noise is dealt with its shape, and no matter what the Angloids will say, it is just a matter of mathematics.

    To be fair the propellers are enormous and being able to make them to the precision level where the mathematics gives you an advantage is a core feature of getting your sub quiet.

    Of course wasn't it five or six axis milling machines from Japan that raised their game in the 1980s and led to a dramatic improvement in performance... or is that just a myth?

    If you have a double hull structure, it means that not only every system can be isolated from the hull with different sort of absorption pads, but you have it all isolated from the external hull. It is spaced, with an additional layer of water that can be used as an additional silencer.

    Anybody who has been in a music room at school or a sound recording studio will notice the material on the walls to absorb and reduce sound... with a double hull you can have extra spaced layers of sound reducing material including rubber like material on the outer surface to reduce the effectiveness of enemy active sonar pings too.

    Second to that, Soviet subs carried more advanced, longer ranged, and much more versatile ordnance.

    Even looking at the propaganda, in the 1970s the US had Harpoon and Tomahawk, while the Soviets had a wide range of anti ship cruise missiles of all shapes and sizes and performance levels.

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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:03 am

    After this, “Kazan” will be flogged from tens or hundreds of miles.

    And what if they find they can't track it except from very very close distances?

    Are they in a financial position to spend trillions of dollars upgrading their world wide anti sub fleet and its technology from the ground up?

    They might be playing a CD on a loop making a mechanical noise that the US will think is native to that specific boat and then when WWIII starts they press pause and start carving up the anti sub fleet of the mighty US Navy.

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jun 15, 2024 7:54 am

    Arrow wrote:"Why did these people drag the latest submarine into the Atlantic?  The composition of the anti-submarine forces that the United States deployed against our frigate and the Kazan is enormous, and we can safely guarantee that after these exercises, one of our submarines will lose even the small combat value that it has, simply because its hydroacoustic portrait will be written off completely,  at all depths and travel modes.  After this, “Kazan” will be flogged from tens or hundreds of miles.
    And the pair of SGARs, which the United States involved in surveillance, guarantee that she will not be able to tear herself away from surveillance for even a minute.
    What's wrong with all these people?  Why are they doing all this?"

    What do you think?  The submarine wasn't sailing in ultra-quiet mode, was it?  Could the US find out anything about Yasen M's characteristics?

    When posing goes wrong censored

    How about deploying the fleets to their ready positions in anticipation of a massive conflict?

    That would be the best pose you can do

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    Post  Hole Sat Jun 15, 2024 12:31 pm

    simply because its hydroacoustic portrait will be written off completely, 
    Whoever wrote this has no clue how the shit in a real ocean enviroment works.

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Jun 15, 2024 1:07 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Whoever wrote this has no clue how the shit in a real ocean enviroment works.

    Take that from another angle.
    It is a perfect case of hitting the dog, no matter what stick you will use for it.
    Russkie don't sail overseas?
    They are pussies and worried because it is shitty ships they are using.
    Russkie sail overseas?
    They are dumb because now everyone will know everything.
    It is not a matter of having a single clue, but to load up as much shit as possible, because some of it will always stick if you put a fan on a higher gear.
    Propaganda is effective because it is massive, not smart.

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