Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+39
mnrck
x_54_u43
franco
jhelb
AZ-5
Karl Haushofer
PhSt
magnumcromagnon
lyle6
ATLASCUB
Hole
Sujoy
mnztr
JohninMK
Godric
Scorpius
Firebird
Arrow
Airbornewolf
nomadski
LMFS
GarryB
Backman
bitcointrader70
Krepost
calripson
Big_Gazza
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
Arkanghelsk
par far
Urluber
flamming_python
VARGR198
ALAMO
kvs
miketheterrible
lancelot
PapaDragon
George1
43 posters

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    JohninMK
    JohninMK


    Posts : 11763
    Points : 11890
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  JohninMK Thu Jan 13, 2022 4:24 pm

    As announced 2 days ago


    Spriter
    @spriter99880
    ·
    2h
    The ministers of defense of the CSTO countries signed a decision to organize the withdrawal of peacekeepers from Kazakhstan.

    The meeting of the Council of Ministers was held by videoconference.

    Russian Exercises
    @RUSexercises
    ·
    23m
    TASS: The first Russian peacekeepers left Kazakhstan on aircraft of the Russian Aerospace Forces https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/1

    GarryB and George1 like this post

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 17845
    Points : 18350
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  George1 Thu Jan 13, 2022 10:48 pm

    JohninMK
    JohninMK


    Posts : 11763
    Points : 11890
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  JohninMK Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:04 am

    George1 wrote:Video

    What is the big burnt out building?
    George1
    George1


    Posts : 17845
    Points : 18350
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  George1 Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:51 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    George1 wrote:Video

    What is the big burnt out building?

    dunno
    franco
    franco


    Posts : 5582
    Points : 5612
    Join date : 2010-08-18

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  franco Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:03 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    George1 wrote:Video

    What is the big burnt out building?

    It is either the old Presidential Palace or the City Hall, both big white buildings and both burnt.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov


    Posts : 3258
    Points : 3240
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Jan 14, 2022 4:56 am

    franco wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    George1 wrote:Video

    What is the big burnt out building?

    It is either the old Presidential Palace or the City Hall, both big white buildings and both burnt.

    It's the palace
    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7796
    Points : 7872
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  flamming_python Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:21 pm

    I'm not sure the situation in Kazakhstan will stabilize

    The West is hitting back with round 2, Tokayev's security operation is hitting all the bandits hard, not allowing them to form in the streets. The regime change operation thus switches to infowar and political activity, where they will be working on getting protests and rallies going again. With the marauder shock-troops deployed along with them when the crowd gets big enough

    There are people in Tokayev's government and circle who have recognized him, but are working against him in actual fact. Have noticed this.
    Then there's the bot network on the internet in full swing, and the US-funded liberal news agencies opposed to him as well

    The Kazakh security forces are not well organized or trained, they commit abuses and operate in the manner of a post-Soviet dictatorship. Tokayev has promised to reform them, but he doesn't have the time, they're in action already. Their operations will necessarily cause alarm and resentment, although it looks as though people are being set free if there is no evidence on them

    Tokayev needs to be open with his people instead of hiding behind conferences and speeches, he will need to respond rapidly to criticism otherwise the tentative faith people have in him will be lost

    The true elephant in the room though is that this situation has many of the markings of a revolution, a true one not a coloured one - from an almost feudal system to a social-democratic form of capitalism. This is essentially what has already happened considering Tokayev's reform program and the sort of political demands that he has pledged to accept.
    If Tokayev doesn't entrench himself, but is not deposed outright by the West, the situation becomes unpredictable, new political forces and sets of demands can start to emerge outright, and not tied to any outside patron. Too early to talk about an October revolution following a February one, but that sort of thing cannot be excluded outright.
    Scorpius
    Scorpius


    Posts : 997
    Points : 999
    Join date : 2020-11-06
    Age : 35

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  Scorpius Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:46 pm

    Some details of the death of 26-year-old Russian Maria Kim during mass riots in Kazakhstan have become known. According to media reports, the deceased was the administrator of a cafe in the city of Taraz. When the riots began, the employees of the institution asked the owner to send a car for them, but he refused. As a result, a 26-year-old girl, a mother of three children, had to close the cafe herself. At that moment, she was attacked by looters who wanted to rob the institution. The Russian woman was stabbed seven times, after which she was shot in the head. She died on the spot from her injuries.

    https://www.ntv.ru/novosti/2658721

    GarryB likes this post

    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon


    Posts : 8158
    Points : 8303
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  magnumcromagnon Sun Jan 16, 2022 1:17 am

    AZ-5 likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 34883
    Points : 35401
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 16, 2022 8:39 am

    Just to be clear my like of the post above about the murder of a woman is not because I approve of such things.... what I appreciate is sharing information that shows there weren't oppressed people wanting to be heard and protesting peacefully, these are violent murderers and thieves out on a rampage... of course western media are bound to paint them as peaceful protesters exercising their rights to protest...

    Big_Gazza and Scorpius like this post

    JohninMK
    JohninMK


    Posts : 11763
    Points : 11890
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  JohninMK Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:28 pm

    The smaller countries have already pulled their troops out. Now it looks like the main Russian exit is underway

    Russian Exercises
    @RUSexercises
    ·
    6h
    TASS: Russian peacekeepers from the CSTO forces on 18 planes return from Kazakhstan https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/13439831



    Looks like the found another en route Smile

    2h
    TASS: All 19 aircraft with Russian peacekeepers and equipment arrived at the Chkalovsky airfield https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/1


    Looks like another group exited too  Laughing

    Russian Market
    @russian_market
    ·
    23h
    Nazarbayev's daughter deletes her social media accounts, after accidently revealing her current location in...

    - Kazakhstan?

    Nope, the United Arab Emirates.

    flamming_python, miketheterrible, LMFS and Hole like this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7796
    Points : 7872
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 20, 2022 6:26 pm

    More Turkish butthurt over Kazakhstan

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 FIhePUzWYAkP5DB?format=jpg&

    https://armenianweekly.com/2022/01/18/have-the-events-in-kazakhstan-exposed-the-limits-of-turkeys-regional-aspirations-in-central-asia/

    Have the events in Kazakhstan exposed the limits of Turkey’s regional aspirations in Central Asia?
    January 18, 2022

    In February 2021, I wrote an article “Turkey’s Pivot in Central Asia: A Calculated Risk?” and asked to what extent can Turkey push its pan-Turkic aspirations in Central Asia? If Turkey’s economic and energy relations in Central Asia continue to deepen, will it inevitably increase engagement on security issues as a means to protect them? Will Russia and China tolerate a NATO member exerting its influence near their traditional zones of influence? The developments in Kazakhstan clearly provided answers to these questions.

    Long seen as the pole of stability in Central Asia, Kazakhstan has faced its most serious political crisis to date. What began as a reaction to a spike in fuel prices in the western oil-producing regions spread across the country with unprecedented calls for reform, before escalating into violence in the country’s biggest city, Almaty. The protest movement in Kazakhstan quickly escalated and turned violent as protesters seized and set alight government buildings. After failing to quell the unrest, President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev launched a “counter-terror” operation to regain control of the situation and appealed to the Russian-led Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO) for military assistance.

    On January 5, the alliance agreed to dispatch peacekeeping forces. In a Facebook post, Armenian PM Nikol Pashinyan, the chairman of the CSTO Collective Security Council, confirmed that the alliance will send peacekeepers to Kazakhstan at the country’s request. The question is, why did Kazakhstan request Russia’s help and choose Russia over the Turkic states? The following article will analyze how Russia, China and Iran viewed the events, highlight Turkey’s position, address whether Turkey had a role in this crisis and analyze its impact on Armenia and the region.


    Background


    Kazakhstan has a strategic position in Eurasia not only because of its large oil reserves and uranium deposits, but also due to its proximity to Russia, China and Iran; Kazakhstan’s security and stability are increasingly vital interests to all major regional powers. Throughout former President Nursultan Nazarbayev’s term, Kazakhs have sought to establish a system of collective security in Eurasia that would avert the emergence of a single dominant power. Kazakhstan’s “multi-vector” foreign policy was able to balance and pursue cooperative relations with all major powers. While it is a member of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), the CSTO and the Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO), Kazakhstan has sought to diversify its security relations and keep its freedom to establish and maintain international partnerships.

    According to Paul Stronski, a senior fellow in Carnegie’s Russia and Eurasia Program, a policy change for the pricing of liquefied petroleum gas reduced subsidies for the fuel, led to prices spiking in a matter of days and pushed people to protest. The peaceful protests turned into violent anarchy in a matter of hours as protesters and armed groups stormed government buildings and clashed with security forces.

    This pushed the resignation of former President Nursultan Nazarbayev, who ruled the country from the late Soviet era to 2019 and has acted as an unofficial behind-the-scenes leader ever since he stepped down as head of the country’s Security Council. Rumors suggest some of his family members, among other prominent former officials, have left the country. Analysts suggest that the crisis was an outcome of a clash between Nazarbayev and Tokayev. Eventually, Russia emerged as the main winner and consolidated Tokoyev’s power, against former President Nazarbayev’s balanced and multi-vector foreign policy.


    Perspectives from Moscow, Beijing and Tehran


    Unlike the Syrian crisis, which Moscow responded to with intense military intervention after four years from its start, it took President Vladimir Putin only two days to send Russian-led troops to contain the crisis in Kazakhstan. Moscow viewed the crisis within the framework of its struggle against “international terrorism” and “external forces” that seek to destabilize countries on Russia’s borders and pose a threat to Russia’s national security.

    Russia’s fast reaction and military deployment under the CSTO umbrella were unprecedented and caught the surprise of many foreign analysts. In an interview with the Armenian Weekly, Vlad Kondrashov, a Russian political scientist from Astrakhan and editor of the portal “Caspian Bulletin,” said that Russia was concerned about instability in the region as both countries share a seven thousand kilometer border. In this regard, “Moscow was not interested in destabilizing the situation in such a strategically important area of its security policy. For this reason, the Russian leadership reacted so quickly to the events in Kazakhstan.” Moscow’s measures also showed who has the muscle in Central Asia and clearly underscored its “red lines.”

    Michael Tanchum, a senior associate fellow at the Austrian Institute for European and Security Policy (AIES), told Nikkei Asia that the Russian-led “CSTO intervention” in Kazakhstan was “an important cautionary signal” for Turkey and the Organization of Turkic States and “that their ambitions should not outrun their capacity.” Hence, this was a clear message that what has happened in Nagorno-Karabakh cannot be replicated in Central Asia. That is, Russia won’t share even temporary parity with Turkey in Central Asia.

    However, Ivan Bocharov, a researcher at the Russian International Affairs Council (RIAC), told the Armenian Weekly that there is no strong evidence that Turkey was involved in the situation in Kazakhstan. Moreover, Bocharov argued that it is unlikely that Turkey could initiate the dispatch of peacekeepers to Kazakhstan. “As Turkey and Kazakhstan do not have such military-political memorandums as, for example, Turkey had with the Government of National Accord of Libya. That is, there are no legal grounds for the Turkish military presence in Kazakhstan. This applies to both bilateral relations between Turkey and Kazakhstan and multilateral formats, including the Organization of Turkic States,” added the researcher.

    Kazakhstan is an important member of China’s Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). Beijing is concerned that instability in its neighbor could threaten energy imports and BRI projects there, and security in its western Xinjiang region, which shares a 1,770-kilometer border with Kazakhstan. For this reason, China welcomed CSTO’s peacekeeping mission. Its Foreign Minister stated that China was willing to “jointly oppose the interference and infiltration of any external forces” and expressed his country’s willingness to increase “law enforcement and security” cooperation with neighboring Kazakhstan and help oppose interference by “external forces.” Moreover, China’s President Xi Jinping told his Kazakhstan counterpart that China resolutely opposed any foreign force that destabilizes Kazakhstan and engineers a “color revolution.”

    Iran was also wary that any attempt to destabilize Central Asia could pose an economic and national security threat. Iran views Kazakhstan as an increasingly important trade partner in Central Asia. On January 6, Iranian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Saeed Khatibzadeh addressed the violence in Kazakhstan, affirming that Tehran is closely monitoring the ongoing unrest and attaching importance to the country’s security and stability. It is important to mention that Tehran views the region through Russian lenses, and their geopolitical interests align in the region. Tehran is also wary of the perceived US role in destabilizing Central Asia, which could pose a threat to its security.

    Therefore, Russia, China and Iran view the violent events in Kazakhstan as a chain of “color revolutions” instigated by the US and other western powers to achieve regime change and destabilize Eurasia. Whether justified or not, these three countries tend together to contain US expansion in Central Asia. The recent fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban has worried regional actors, insofar as radical Islamism combined with discontent amongst the young toward post-Soviet leaders may undermine domestic social cohesion.


    Mixed Reactions from Turkey


    Analysts believe that Turkey’s ambitions to become a Eurasian power in a Turkic world has met a “reality check.” Turkish social media was surprised and upset at how a Turkic state would ask the security assistance of a Russia-dominated CSTO and not Turkey. While Turkish officials did their best to take a neutral and diplomatic stance, opposition activists, media figures and military experts had different opinions.

    On January 6, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan held talks with leaders and members of the Organization of Turkic States and reiterated that Turkey is in solidarity with Kazakhstan. Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu also spoke with his Azerbaijani and Russian counterparts about the situation in Kazakhstan but refrained from commenting on developments in the country himself. Meanwhile, Turkey’s parliament speaker Mustafa Sentop, AKP spokesman Omer Celik and presidential spokesman Ibrahim Kalin all reaffirmed the official position stating that Turkey stands with brotherly Kazakhstan and wishes the country’s quick return to peace and stability.

    While opposition leaders expressed dissatisfaction with Turkey’s passive stance, Turkish nationalist İYİ opposition party leader Meral Aksener said that her party is “closely following the development of events in fraternal Kazakhstan,” indirectly hinting CSTO’s deployment. She stated that her “main desire is to preserve the independence and stability of Kazakhstan.” Meanwhile, former PM Ahmet Davutoğlu and founder/chairman of the opposition “Future” party, tweeted, “It is also concerning that because of those developments they (Kazakhstan’s leadership) had to ask help from the CSTO chaired by Armenia.”

    This incident paved the way for a serious discussion within the Turkish military about the possibility of the creation of a “Turan/Pan-Turkic army” in the future to assist Turkic countries in their security or military needs. While Turkish officials have taken a careful and neutral stance on Russian and CSTO involvement in Kazakhstan, Turkish military experts had a different opinion. Retired Rear Admiral Cihat Yayci, who served as chief of staff of Turkish Naval Forces until 2020 and is the mastermind of the Turkish concept “Blue Homeland” (Mavi Vatan), told local media that “a Turan army should be established.” Yayci said it is unacceptable that Armenian forces entered Kazakhstan in the name of peacekeeping forces. Retired Brigadier General and former Turkish attaché in Azerbaijan Yudzhel Karauz also had a similar view; he stated, “The Organization of Turkic States must immediately take steps to create a joint armed force.” “At the very first meeting of the organization, legal measures should be taken regarding the creation of a joint military force and real steps must be taken. If we are late, we may cause irreparable damage. What is happening now in Kazakhstan can happen in other fraternal republics,” the retired general said.

    These remarks caught the attention of the Turkish Defense Minister. When asked about the possibility of a future peacekeeping mission mandate for the organization, Minister Hulusi Akar told reporters, “These are all possibilities and all possibilities are on the table. As developments unfold, any such measures can be taken.” Such comments will surely be monitored closely in Moscow and Beijing.

    Turkish conservative media outlets and reporters also expressed their dissatisfaction with CSTO’s peacekeeping mission. The conservative Islamist newspaper Yeni Akit came up with the following headline “Only Turkey is interested in a strong Kazakhstan.” The newspaper called on the state to take the same active role in resolving the escalation in Kazakhstan as in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Syria and Libya. The same newspaper on its front page called for the creation of a “Turkic-Islamic army” to resolve such issues. The newspaper accused Russia of “imperialism” and claimed that such “intervention will only aggravate the situation.” Turkish opposition newspaper “Karar” conducted an interview with the leader of the Crimean Tatars Mustafa Dzhemilev and published the headline “Who will now lead the Russians out of Kazakhstan?” According to Dzhemilev, the number of Russian troops in the region will grow steadily. He also accused Kazakhstan’s president of “betrayal” and stated, “the independence of Kazakhstan is at stake.” Finally, TRT World editor-at-large Yusuf Erim tweeted, “The only acceptable peacekeeping force to assist in stability in Kazakhstan is an Organization of Turkic States’ peacekeeping force, which should only be deployed at member state Kazakhstan’s request. Reports of Russian PMCs/Russian-led coalition is nothing less than an invasion.” It seems Erim forgot that the Organization of Turkic States is not a military alliance to conduct such a mission.

    These reactions show that despite Turkey’s “passive” approach, at least publicly, the Turkish society and the political and military mood were not in favor of the CSTO’s decision and preferred to see a greater Turkish role in Kazakhstan.


    Was there a silent Russian-Turkish confrontation in Kazakhstan?


    For Bocharov, the events in Kazakhstan have shown that Turkey is not yet a military and political superpower in Central Asia. Despite this, he stated that we should take into consideration Turkey’s strong diplomatic and political positions in Central Asia and its historical and cultural kinship with Central Asian countries. Therefore, regional powers should not belittle Turkey. Bocharov stated, “The events in Kazakhstan will not so much expose the limitations of Turkey’s aspirations as will become a driver for Turkish future activity in Central Asia.” It is worth mentioning that after the entry of CSTO peacekeepers into Kazakhstan, President Erdogan held an urgent meeting of the heads of the member countries of the Organization of Turkic States. Further steps may be taken to improve the efficiency of Turkey’s military-technical and military-political cooperation with the countries of Central Asia. How successful will this strategy be? Bocharov believes that the effectiveness of military cooperation will indeed increase, but the level of military-political integration will not reach the level of the CSTO. As Kondrashov stated, the sphere of security and military cooperation in the region is much more the prerogative of Moscow. The Organization of the Turkic States has no common military forces or peacekeeping contingent, so Turkey had no reason to send its forces to the region. Turkey is unlikely to succeed in pushing Russia here.

    The Russian-led operation was carefully calculated, unlike assumptions from the west, where mainstream media argued that CSTO peacekeepers will participate in the “crushing of the civilians.” Instead, Russia and the CSTO limited their role to securing key assets to allow Kazakh security forces to address the violence.

    On January 12, the Kazakh President announced he requested the CSTO troops to leave the country as the country stabilized. Addressing the government and parliament in a live broadcast video conference, Tokayev thanked his allies and said, “The main mission of the CSTO peacekeeping forces has been successfully completed.” The next day, President Putin met Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu and stated, “Overall, it’s time to return home. We have accomplished our task.” Without a single drop of Russian blood, Russia engaged in a temporary military deployment and prevented a CSTO member from falling into anarchy.

    Turkey’s assumed role is not clear, despite the fact that some Telegram sources accused Turkish Grey Wolves members of taking part in the riots. While Kazakh authorities announced that security forces have “detained eight thousand terrorists,” it is still not clear from where and who transferred these terrorists to Kazakhstan. If this accusation is true, then the authorities are responsible to provide details for the public.

    Meanwhile, in response to accusations from Turkish politicians that Russians are tending to occupy Kazakhstan, Moscow’s official response to Turkey arrived on time. Erdogan’s chief adviser described what is happening in Kazakhstan as an occupation and announced, “They want to return the state, free from the 30-year Soviet yoke, striving for its wealth, culture, values, to this superficial and meaningless life. After the creation of the ‘Organization of Turkic States,’ our states began to be attacked.” In response, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said that he asked Turkey for clarification about the speech of the presidential adviser on Kazakhstan: “This is, to put it mildly, an incomprehensible statement by one of President Erdogan’s advisers, who condemned the invitation of Kazakhstan to the CSTO forces. We asked our Turkish colleagues to explain what this means,” stated the Minister. Earlier, Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova stated that Moscow expects that Turkey will refrain from ill-considered statements on Kazakhstan and will not try to “catch a fish in troubled waters.”

    The Kazakh crisis also would have some impact on the South Caucasus and the future of co-opetition between Turkey and Russia, as Ankara realized its constraints in Central Asia. Additionally, Armenia’s political landscape once again proved that it lacks geopolitical maturity. Most of PM Pashinyan’s associates, NGOs (liberal and leftists) and the pro-US/West National-Democratic Axis movement leaders have criticized Armenia’s symbolic participation in the CSTO peacekeeping forces. Here, there are two arguments: that Armenia was supporting an authoritarian leader and that this would tarnish Yerevan’s image in the West; the second was that such a move would endanger the life of Armenians living in Kazakhstan. Surprisingly, parliamentary opposition factions also opposed this peacekeeping mission as they looked at the events from the “anti-Nikol” prism. However, few realized that Armenia’s options were limited. As a member of the CSTO, irrespective of the alliance’s passive stance towards the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict, Armenia was under a duty to assist this mission. This was important for Russia, as Moscow wanted to show NATO that its alliance is firm and united against foreign threats. Moreover, Armenia also showed its allies that in times of crisis, Yerevan supports the member states, even though it was abandoned by its CSTO allies during the Azerbaijani incursions on Armenian territories. In such circumstances, Armenia cannot remain neutral amid the expansion of possible pan-Turkic dangers in the region.

    GarryB likes this post

    avatar
    Firebird


    Posts : 1466
    Points : 1496
    Join date : 2011-10-14

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  Firebird Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:13 pm

    Its high time Turkey was split into 3. Kurds and 2 other groups (probably a non Islamist and an Islamist one).
    The right forces, and it would be desperate to split into 2 if not 3. (I am thinking Kurds in Turkey).
    The problem is that Kurds in other places would then demand a new country.

    Anyway, that would put paid to their poor attempt at comedy - the so called "Turkic World".
    In truth the map is much smaller - the "Turdic World" - run by Turdogan.
    Maybe Constantinopol could then be reformed as some sort of Eastern Orthodox city state with its security guaranteed by Russia.

    The fact is, like Japan, Turkey has virtually no friends in the World. And plenty of enemies.
    Even its (very loosely termed) allies don't trust it one ounce.
    Turdogan needs to learn his place. He's a blowhard prick.

    kvs likes this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 8001
    Points : 7989
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  Hole Thu Jan 20, 2022 9:42 pm

    But he´s a loose cannon that quite often bites the western hand that feeds him. Morons like him can be useful.
    avatar
    mnztr


    Posts : 1818
    Points : 1860
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  mnztr Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:31 am

    Putin should be quite clear to him. **** around in CIS states and we will arm the **** out of the Kurds. But I have read that the Turkish participation in Kazakh was not at the behest of Erdogan but of a faction in Turkish intelligence. Probably the same ones that organized the coup attempt and shoot down of the Russian Su-24. I assume there will be a purge in Turkish intelligence and Putin will demand some answers and heads.

    GarryB and lancelot like this post

    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 8001
    Points : 7989
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 46
    Location : Scholzistan

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  Hole Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:44 pm

    No heads. $$$ (or €€€). Very Happy Most likely Turkey will buy some Su-35´s.

    GarryB likes this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7796
    Points : 7872
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  flamming_python Thu Feb 10, 2022 1:58 am

    New protests at petrochemical facilities in western Kazakhstan.
    Workers threaten strikes and sabotage of work processes unless their pay is raised by 100%, and the government, state corporations arrest the practice of hiring employees from outside the region or outside Kazakhstan altogether.

    New protests scheduled in Almaty as well, Kazakhstan's former capital

    The president of Kazakhstan, Kassym-Jomart Tokayev, has already addressed the western Kazakhstan protests, stating that their demands will be examined. Tokayev has over the past month moved to introduce or promise a whole bunch of state-capitalist and social welfare economic policies, and liberal political reforms. Tokayev of course, has already met protestors' demands in full a couple of times since the start of the new year, and skillfully used that to sideline Nazarbayev's family and his political opponents who attempted an armed uprising against him.

    Tokayev's position today can be somehow approximated to Kerensky's after the February revolution in Russia, who climbed up the ranks of the provisional government employing left-wing populism and co-operation with various worker's organizations, even working with the Bolshevik party, in the pursuit of increasing his legitimacy and cementing his position. While simultaneously arguing for a continuation of a deeply unpopular war with all associated misery
    In comparison to Kerensky's, Tokayev's position appears more favourable. He's waging no war, and he's not up against an organized, experienced group of radical left-wing revolutionaries determined to outpace him in appeasing popular demands and undermining his authority. Tokayev has reasserted his control of the state, and the state's monopoly on force, subsequently moving to dump people from the ranks of the interior ministry, counter-intelligence and army that he doesn't trust.

    Therefore I more expect Tokayev to hold onto power than not.
    What's of more interest to me is the exemplary attention paid by all Russian left-wing organizations and parties to the events in Kazakhstan. It's too early to speak of any protests, strikes or other political actions in co-ordination with the ones carried out in Kazakhstan, but such a scenario is far from excluded. In any case, certainly many lessons are being learned. Will the left-wing forces of Russia mobilize and gather appeal across society in time for the coming abdication of our current Tsar in 2024? That is the question.

    franco likes this post

    TMA1
    TMA1


    Posts : 752
    Points : 756
    Join date : 2020-11-30

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  TMA1 Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:58 am

    I do hope that the legit protests get their demands heard and there is good faith arbitration. I know the west might be involved but there is always room for serious improvement. Insufferable neolibs in Canada are essentially saying the trucker convoy is insurrection. I never thought I'd see the day where so much of the left would sell their souls. When I was a young teen during the Dubya years I was always pissed at how blind conservatives were towards the diminishment of civil liberties and the rot of unchecked capitalism and increase of immigration to line pockets of the greedy. Now I see the left often acting thr same way. The switcheroo of class with ethnic/gender grievances has been very, very successful and it is sad. There are still good lefties out there but damn. Anyone calling trucker convoy insurrection are either ideologically blind, naive or malevolent.

    So in spite of potential western meddling, and hard times in Kazakhstan, I hope those majority of good faith have their voices heard and more importantly are given not just a "living wage" but ability to thrive.

    flamming_python likes this post

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 12656
    Points : 12714
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  PapaDragon Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:29 pm

    flamming_python wrote:.....
    What's of more interest to me is the exemplary attention paid by all Russian left-wing organizations and parties to the events in Kazakhstan. It's too early to speak of any protests, strikes or other political actions in co-ordination with the ones carried out in Kazakhstan, but such a scenario is far from excluded. In any case, certainly many lessons are being learned. Will the left-wing forces of Russia mobilize and gather appeal across society in time for the coming abdication of our current Tsar in 2024? That is the question.

    We have seen that Russian security services are also keeping a keen eye on these events and they definitely keep an eye on any elements insude Russia that are trying to ''learn'' from this and are ready to exterminate them all on the moments notice

    Russia is not some deindustrialized Central Asian shithole or a failed state anymore, it has formidable and well funded military on top of stable economy and any red scum who tries to pull another foreign funded coup with the purpose of partitioning Russia and genociding Russians in the name of uplifting the fringe minority tribes will find itself wishing it never born for the rest of it's pathetic worthless commie life

    Lenin slithered by because St. Petersburg police wasn't doing it's job and terminated him on site, as modern history has shown no such error will be repeated in modern day Russia, just look at laundry list of terrorists that the FSB has put into the ground or in Black Dolphin or Pyatak in the last 20 years

    Civilizationally Russia never really recovered from the Red Terror but it has managed to somehow survive

    Still they know that they only survived by chance and should something like that happen again it would be the end of them

    lancelot and Arkanghelsk like this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7796
    Points : 7872
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  flamming_python Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:52 pm

    History never stops PD, neither do the evolution of governance and economic systems.

    You really think that Russia will survive by becoming a police state which represses anyone who acts to produce an alternative.. Razz

    That's what laid the groundwork for such a revolution in 1917 in the first place. Although yes, Russia never learns.

    Lenin 'slithered by' because Kerensky's policy at the time was "no enemies to the left". However this was only logical, given the fact that various socialist parties were dominating the political landscape and the provisional government needed to build-up legitimacy.
    In the end however they ended up outmanuevered and thrown out of power

    Similarly, as how Russian liberals in the decades prior would pay for the legal defense of Marxists and revolutionaries that were tried by Tsarist authorities. The liberals thought they were being the clever ones here, and wanted to use the socialists as useful idiots in their fight for the liberalization of Russia or its transformation into a republic.
    They also turned out as nothing other than losers who got outplayed.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 12656
    Points : 12714
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  PapaDragon Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:06 am

    flamming_python wrote:History never stops PD, neither do the evolution of governance and economic systems.

    You really think that Russia will survive by becoming a police state which represses anyone who acts to produce an alternative.. Razz

    That's what laid the groundwork for such a revolution in 1917 in the first place. Although yes, Russia never learns.

    ''Alternative'' has been done before and it delivered wars, famine, oppression, genocide, disintegration and cultural and civilizational collapse and permanent downgrade

    If Russians are all collectively retarded they should definitely try again, fringe tribes, Euros and USA will definitely approve



    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7796
    Points : 7872
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  flamming_python Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:13 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:History never stops PD, neither do the evolution of governance and economic systems.

    You really think that Russia will survive by becoming a police state which represses anyone who acts to produce an alternative.. Razz

    That's what laid the groundwork for such a revolution in 1917 in the first place. Although yes, Russia never learns.

    ''Alternative'' has been done before and it delivered wars, famine, oppression, genocide, disintegration and cultural and civilizational collapse and permanent downgrade

    If Russians are all collectively retarded they should definitely try again, fringe tribes, Euros and USA will definitely approve




    The core issue is figuring out a system that can maintain legitimacy, recognize and respond to various demands in society, build trust, accept feedback, encourage even ordinary people to participate in politics, greatly lower income inequality, and offer a prospective model for other countries to follow as well.

    This isn't 1917 and no-one's arguing for Bolshevism, it's a different era that requires a different response.
    avatar
    sundoesntrise


    Posts : 312
    Points : 314
    Join date : 2021-10-23

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  sundoesntrise Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:19 am

    flamming_python wrote:History never stops PD, neither do the evolution of governance and economic systems.

    You really think that Russia will survive by becoming a police state which represses anyone who acts to produce an alternative.. Razz

    That's what laid the groundwork for such a revolution in 1917 in the first place. Although yes, Russia never learns.

    Lenin 'slithered by' because Kerensky's policy at the time was "no enemies to the left". However this was only logical, given the fact that various socialist parties were dominating the political landscape and the provisional government needed to build-up legitimacy.
    In the end however they ended up outmanuevered and thrown out of power

    Similarly, as how Russian liberals in the decades prior would pay for the legal defense of Marxists and revolutionaries that were tried by Tsarist authorities. The liberals thought they were being the clever ones here, and wanted to use the socialists as useful idiots in their fight for the liberalization of Russia or its transformation into a republic.
    They also turned out as nothing other than losers who got outplayed.

    Let's not pretend the Bolshewik Revolution was an organic one.

    It was a small group of radicals funded front center and back by Wall Street. Jacob Schiff (the grandpa of) admitted this himself. Equally foreign intelligence services held great sway over Madman Lenin. Read Anthony Sutton's Wall Street and the Bolshewik Revolution

    It was the proto-type color revolution. Commies can't deal with these Truths and cling onto outdated beliefs about 'worker uprisings'.

    Putin, with all his shortcomings, is dead right to clamp down on these clowns.

    kvs and lancelot like this post

    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7796
    Points : 7872
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  flamming_python Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:21 am

    And let me tell you another thing PD - this is an urgent matter.

    Else by 2024, or whatever year subsequent, people will be striking and protesting en masse under the banner of Navalny or some similar such swindler instead.
    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7796
    Points : 7872
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  flamming_python Fri Feb 11, 2022 12:58 am

    sundoesntrise wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:History never stops PD, neither do the evolution of governance and economic systems.

    You really think that Russia will survive by becoming a police state which represses anyone who acts to produce an alternative.. Razz

    That's what laid the groundwork for such a revolution in 1917 in the first place. Although yes, Russia never learns.

    Lenin 'slithered by' because Kerensky's policy at the time was "no enemies to the left". However this was only logical, given the fact that various socialist parties were dominating the political landscape and the provisional government needed to build-up legitimacy.
    In the end however they ended up outmanuevered and thrown out of power

    Similarly, as how Russian liberals in the decades prior would pay for the legal defense of Marxists and revolutionaries that were tried by Tsarist authorities. The liberals thought they were being the clever ones here, and wanted to use the socialists as useful idiots in their fight for the liberalization of Russia or its transformation into a republic.
    They also turned out as nothing other than losers who got outplayed.

    Let's not pretend the Bolshewik Revolution was an organic one.

    It was a small group of radicals funded front center and back by Wall Street. Jacob Schiff (the grandpa of) admitted this himself. Equally foreign intelligence services held great sway over Madman Lenin. Read Anthony Sutton's Wall Street and the Bolshewik Revolution

    It was the proto-type color revolution. Commies can't deal with these Truths and cling onto outdated beliefs about 'worker uprisings'.

    Putin, with all his shortcomings, is dead right to clamp down on these clowns.

    Ah yes the ol' Lenin was a German spy gag

    If you actually read Russian history, you would know, that socialism and Marxism indeed developed as a fringe movement, but it was something new and provided a framework of answers for people's misery at the time. It was not contained to Russia. Marx and Engels themselves of course. The Paris Commune. The German socialist movement.
    Then in the 50 years preceding the revolution you had the rise of left-wing activism in the Russian Empire. You had arson attacks, terrorism, sabotage of industries. The assassination of Alexander II.

    You had the 1st Russian revolution in 1905-1907, the demands of which gained a lot of popularity. You had the creation of the first Soviets during that time. Trade unions, mass strikes. A huge amount of intellectuals and theoreticians developing their ideas and building on Marxism, and again hardly only in Russia.

    After the February revolution, all these various strands of socialism and worker's movements were dominating the political landscape. Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, Social-Revolutionary Party, Anarchists, and so on. In such a situation even the centre and right-wing parties were forced to adopt some popular left-wing demands. The continuing war only radicalized people and eventually the faction with the most radical program and determination to seize power won out.

    As for who was funding who - so what?
    You can co-operate with someone who doesn't share your ideals and that you can't control for one reason - you have a temporary common objective of some kind.
    For the CIA and Bin Laden that objective was forcing the USSR to leave Afghanistan.
    In the case of the Germans and Lenin it was forcing Russia out of the war.
    And both the CIA and Germans achieved their goals in that regard. They were professionals and thought things through.

    Whereas any other idiot who might have given Lenin money in the belief that they could control him were forgotten about as soon as his train pulled into Petrograd. Not how the game works.

    TMA1 likes this post


    Sponsored content


    2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest - Page 21 Empty Re: 2022 Kazakhstan violent unrest

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:46 pm