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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2

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    Post  Krepost Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:27 pm

    More huge photos of TZIKLON:
    Click on links below and then click on photo to see huge size.

    https://radikal.ru/lfp/d.radikal.ru/d17/2112/a0/eae3cade8d25.jpg/htm

    https://radikal.ru/lfp/c.radikal.ru/c06/2112/d3/c2bd890da3e5.jpg/htm

    https://radikal.ru/lfp/b.radikal.ru/b01/2112/8b/cd7c65cacd13.jpg/htm

    https://radikal.ru/lfp/b.radikal.ru/b18/2112/ab/d9a2a9b0ee75.jpg/htm

    https://radikal.ru/lfp/c.radikal.ru/c00/2112/78/d48ecc718c27.jpg/htm

    https://radikal.ru/lfp/a.radikal.ru/a02/2112/17/73c25f641bad.jpg/htm

    https://radikal.ru/lfp/d.radikal.ru/d20/2112/f0/4b43add2a378.jpg/htm

    https://radikal.ru/lfp/d.radikal.ru/d05/2112/14/86c630058922.jpg/htm

    https://radikal.ru/lfp/a.radikal.ru/a08/2112/bc/528572412320.jpg/htm

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:30 pm

    Has there ever been any update pertaining to the diesel engine production of these corvettes?

    The buyans were put out for sea trials and acceptance one every year.

    Will that be the same situation with 22800? 1 ship per year?
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    Post  hoom Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:05 pm

    I think the plant has been producing engines at about 1 ship per year rate.
    But when you have 4 (?) shipyards producing hulls and an existing order of (I think its) 18 thats really not good enough.
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    Post  Arrow Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:09 pm

    It is now perhaps 16. Two units have been canceled in Vostochnaya Verf.
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    Post  lancelot Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:20 am

    hoom wrote:I think the plant has been producing engines at about 1 ship per year rate.
    But when you have 4 (?) shipyards producing hulls and an existing order of (I think its) 18 thats really not good enough.

    Have you seen how these engines look like?
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 JSC_Zvezda_M503_l

    This is an M503 engine. It is a 42 cylinder, six cylinders per bank, diesel radial engine.
    The Karakurt uses the M507 engine. It has 112 cylinders. How? It is two even larger radial engines coupled together to a single shaft.
    https://oldmachinepress.com/2016/09/05/yakovlev-m-501-and-zvezda-m503-and-m504-diesel-engines/
    The M507 coupled unit has 10453 hp (7795 kW) at 2000 rpm.

    Each engine unit in the Karakurt has one of these coupled engine units for each shaft, there are three shafts, so that is six engines.

    This is basically a 1950s diesel engine design which is way past its prime. How many radial engine aircraft do you see in use today?
    They have all been replaced by much simpler and cheaper turboprops. The company was dimensioned to serve existing users not produce vast amounts of new engines.
    That the state insists on using this engine instead of designing in a new one is beyond me. The M70FRU turbine has 14000 hp and could easily replace a coupled unit.

    Also for reference that site claims the M507 has time between overhauls of 3500 hours. While the M70FRU turbine has a stated time between repairs of 20000 hours.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:27 pm

    I think in this instance the lawsuit against Zvezda takes on more meaning.

    The defense ministry not only is unsatisfied with the production of m507, but also they cut the order to 16.

    In this case I think they would not have taken that decision, towards zvezda which they settled for back in 2018,

    Unless another cauldron was in the works.

    Maybe we will find that M70fru bench testing was proceeding all the while, and would be perfect to sea trial on one of these small looking , but big punch packing missile ships.

    After all they did not go to arbitration for discontinuing m507 implementation from zvezda for nothing. Shoigu know what's is going on.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:51 am

    That is a problem here.... when we don't hear anything in the news some members think the Russian industry are corrupt and the officials are idiots... and why don't they adopt my (their) obvious solution which can be anything from setting up 20 factories to increase production... not saying what to do with these factories when the limited production is done or where the money to set up 20 factories might come from exactly and wouldn't that take even longer than other simpler solutions... to cancelling the programme and firing everyone involved... especially if it is carrier related...

    The decisions made are not spur of the moment things, most of this was planned a decade ago, but of course changes like lack of access to certain engine types means those careful plans need to be changed.

    A secret about working with plans is that sometimes circumstances dictate changes... sometimes incredibly radical changes... changes are not a failure... continuing along with the old plan regardless would be a failure... scrapping the whole thing would be a failure.

    Countries turn on you... fires happen... floating docks that float can also sometimes sink... when your job is to run a navy firing people all the time makes everything harder.

    They are doing the job because they are your first choice... there is no B team all up to speed waiting in the wings in case the A team stuffs things up...

    This is a multirole corvette... in the Soviet Navy the only ships that were fully multirole were Cruisers and even Cruisers didn't have long range land attack cruise missile capability.

    Most of the technologies for these cruisers and frigates was new and had never been to sea on a ship before so integrating it is new.

    Bigger ships like Destroyers are going to have newer bigger radar and sonar and other systems, but in terms of missiles they are just going to have more directors and more launch tubes. In terms of guns they will likely have larger calibres too, which will mean they wont be making them like the Chinese are producing theirs, but they don't need to take on the US Navy.

    What they are going for is expansion but not domination... they don't need to command all the seas of the world at once, but they do want to reach countries for trade and be able to engage in trade with any country that want to trade with them.

    Rant over....

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    Post  Krepost Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:55 am

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    Post  hoom Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:00 am

    Each engine unit in the Karakurt has one of these coupled engine units for each shaft, there are three shafts, so that is six engines.
    Yes I know that, I've made that explanation up-thread.
    Additionally the plant had been ticking over on repairs since the break up of the USSR so a slow ramp up is understandable when they suddenly got an order for 6048 cylinders of engines needed ASAP.

    But we're approaching 8yrs since that order and there are a stack of hulls waiting on engines, there really should be some signs of improvement by now.
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    Post  kumbor Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:30 am

    hoom wrote:
    Each engine unit in the Karakurt has one of these coupled engine units for each shaft, there are three shafts, so that is six engines.
    Yes I know that, I've made that explanation up-thread.
    Additionally the plant had been ticking over on repairs since the break up of the USSR so a slow ramp up is understandable when they suddenly got an order for 6048 cylinders of engines needed ASAP.

    But we're approaching 8yrs since that order and there are a stack of hulls waiting on engines, there really should be some signs of improvement by now.


    According to displacement, hull properties and full speed of 30 knots, there should be two shafts and two coupled engines M-507, with cca 21.000shp in all. Gas turbines would be better solution, but, possibly there is no place in the hull to install GT ducts.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:55 pm

    SEVASTOPOL, January 14. /TASS/. Passage of factory sea trials is completed on a small missile ship (MRK) "Cyclone", built for the Black Sea Fleet (BSF). A number of systems have already been tested, the press service of the Black Sea Fleet told reporters on Friday.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/13425935

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 93757910

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    Post  Krepost Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:50 am

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 27-10411

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    Post  Krepost Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:46 pm

    Photos are from today.

    Burya looks pretty much ready.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 29-10411

    Vikhr and Okhotsk that were towed in from Morye (Feodosia, Crimea) to Pella are as they were with no change.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 29-10413
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 29-10412


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    Post  Krepost Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:20 am

    Vikhr and Okhotsk are still sitting there at Pella untouched.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 13-10410

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    Post  TMA1 Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:46 am

    One of my favorite naval vessels. I wonder if they could ever get enough room to add that antitorpedo kit with the smaller 300 millimeter torpedoes and antitorpedos. The suite comes with a small sonar array placed at the bottom of the vessel. Then you would have a small package, but with cruise and anti shipping missiles as well as ciws with missiles of extended short range capabilities. Then on top of that it would also be able to defend from torpedoes and with the same system actually attack submarines out to a dozen or so kilometers. Would be so awesome. Granted the anti air capabilities wouldnt be perfect but if the pantsir m is as good as the updated pantsuits it can guide missiles on to multiple targets at the same time. It would be a formidable little vessel.
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    Post  walle83 Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:28 am

    No rush it seems.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:26 pm

    walle83 wrote:No rush it seems.

    Hard to rush with no engines

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    Post  Krepost Sun Feb 13, 2022 6:22 pm

    It is no longer an engine problem. As far as I know that problem is solved.
    The problem is with Pella and all the legal stuff around it.

    The information I have gathered is by no means complete. But it gives you an idea.
    Please don't quote me and please wait for further information:
    - Pella now belongs to Norebo which is a very large vertically integrated fishing holding. Building new ships, factories and refrigerators is part of their large business.
    - Pella assets are being transferred to Norebo.
    - The construction of the Karakurts can no longer be completed at Pella.
    - The 4 Karakurts that are now at Pella will be towed to the old site at Otradnoye to complete their construction there.
    - Naturally, completion of these 4 ships will be delayed.
    - Burya that was built in Pella is almost complete with most equipment installed.
    - The other 3 ships were built at Morya shipyard in Feodosiya (Crimea) and towed to Pella for completion. They are basically hulls and a superstructure. A lot of work still need to be done on these.

    In the meanwhile, construction of Karakurts is proceeding normally: 4x at Zaliv (Kerch), 2x at Zelenodonsk and 4x at Amur.

    By the way, the Tug Nevskaya Zastava is the one that is going to tow the Karakurts to Otradnoye.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 13-10411

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    Post  hoom Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:34 am

    - The 4 Karakurts that are now at Pella will be towed to the old site at Otradnoye to complete their construction there.
    So that little yard in Otradnoye proper where the above pics of Vikhr and Okhotsk are taken is the old Pella yard?
    The bigger yard a few km towards St Petersburg where most of the work has been done is a new yard? (presumably new as in '90s/early 00s?)

    If Pella has gone back to doing purely commercial, will the others be finished off by Pella/Pella workers or is the work being officially transferred to another yard?
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    Post  ALAMO Mon Feb 14, 2022 8:50 am

    I suppose you are adressing the Srednii-Newskij Sudostrojennyj Zawod?
    https://snsz.ru/
    They are building Alexandrit minesweepers there.
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    Post  Arrow Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:29 am

    It is too bad that there are still problems with the construction of 22800 ships. They should build about 30 of these ships.  So far they have reduced the order from 18 to 16. Two units have been canceled.
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    Post  hoom Mon Feb 14, 2022 11:23 am

    https://snsz.ru/
    Ah thats downstream towards St Petersburg not towards Otradnoye.
    That would make sense as a place to finish off 22800s, being nearby & with active ongoing building of military ships.
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    Post  Krepost Tue Feb 15, 2022 9:21 pm

    The twing has been completed.
    All 4 ships have been transferred.
    Now let's see how and when they will be completed.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 15-10411
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 15-10412
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 15-10410

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    Post  Krepost Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:51 am

    Production of pr.22800 at Amur Shipyard in the Far East:
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 17-10410

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    Post  hoom Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:30 am

    Krepost wrote:All 4 ships have been transferred.
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 15-10411
    This is definitely Otradnoe/old Pella not SNSZ

    Map
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 Nv1RwMm

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