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    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2

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    Post  Krepost Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:27 pm

    More huge photos of TZIKLON:
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Wed Dec 22, 2021 8:30 pm

    Has there ever been any update pertaining to the diesel engine production of these corvettes?

    The buyans were put out for sea trials and acceptance one every year.

    Will that be the same situation with 22800? 1 ship per year?
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    Post  hoom Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:05 pm

    I think the plant has been producing engines at about 1 ship per year rate.
    But when you have 4 (?) shipyards producing hulls and an existing order of (I think its) 18 thats really not good enough.
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    Post  Arrow Wed Dec 22, 2021 11:09 pm

    It is now perhaps 16. Two units have been canceled in Vostochnaya Verf.
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    Post  lancelot Thu Dec 23, 2021 2:20 am

    hoom wrote:I think the plant has been producing engines at about 1 ship per year rate.
    But when you have 4 (?) shipyards producing hulls and an existing order of (I think its) 18 thats really not good enough.

    Have you seen how these engines look like?
    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 JSC_Zvezda_M503_l

    This is an M503 engine. It is a 42 cylinder, six cylinders per bank, diesel radial engine.
    The Karakurt uses the M507 engine. It has 112 cylinders. How? It is two even larger radial engines coupled together to a single shaft.
    https://oldmachinepress.com/2016/09/05/yakovlev-m-501-and-zvezda-m503-and-m504-diesel-engines/
    The M507 coupled unit has 10453 hp (7795 kW) at 2000 rpm.

    Each engine unit in the Karakurt has one of these coupled engine units for each shaft, there are three shafts, so that is six engines.

    This is basically a 1950s diesel engine design which is way past its prime. How many radial engine aircraft do you see in use today?
    They have all been replaced by much simpler and cheaper turboprops. The company was dimensioned to serve existing users not produce vast amounts of new engines.
    That the state insists on using this engine instead of designing in a new one is beyond me. The M70FRU turbine has 14000 hp and could easily replace a coupled unit.

    Also for reference that site claims the M507 has time between overhauls of 3500 hours. While the M70FRU turbine has a stated time between repairs of 20000 hours.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:27 pm

    I think in this instance the lawsuit against Zvezda takes on more meaning.

    The defense ministry not only is unsatisfied with the production of m507, but also they cut the order to 16.

    In this case I think they would not have taken that decision, towards zvezda which they settled for back in 2018,

    Unless another cauldron was in the works.

    Maybe we will find that M70fru bench testing was proceeding all the while, and would be perfect to sea trial on one of these small looking , but big punch packing missile ships.

    After all they did not go to arbitration for discontinuing m507 implementation from zvezda for nothing. Shoigu know what's is going on.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 24, 2021 3:51 am

    That is a problem here.... when we don't hear anything in the news some members think the Russian industry are corrupt and the officials are idiots... and why don't they adopt my (their) obvious solution which can be anything from setting up 20 factories to increase production... not saying what to do with these factories when the limited production is done or where the money to set up 20 factories might come from exactly and wouldn't that take even longer than other simpler solutions... to cancelling the programme and firing everyone involved... especially if it is carrier related...

    The decisions made are not spur of the moment things, most of this was planned a decade ago, but of course changes like lack of access to certain engine types means those careful plans need to be changed.

    A secret about working with plans is that sometimes circumstances dictate changes... sometimes incredibly radical changes... changes are not a failure... continuing along with the old plan regardless would be a failure... scrapping the whole thing would be a failure.

    Countries turn on you... fires happen... floating docks that float can also sometimes sink... when your job is to run a navy firing people all the time makes everything harder.

    They are doing the job because they are your first choice... there is no B team all up to speed waiting in the wings in case the A team stuffs things up...

    This is a multirole corvette... in the Soviet Navy the only ships that were fully multirole were Cruisers and even Cruisers didn't have long range land attack cruise missile capability.

    Most of the technologies for these cruisers and frigates was new and had never been to sea on a ship before so integrating it is new.

    Bigger ships like Destroyers are going to have newer bigger radar and sonar and other systems, but in terms of missiles they are just going to have more directors and more launch tubes. In terms of guns they will likely have larger calibres too, which will mean they wont be making them like the Chinese are producing theirs, but they don't need to take on the US Navy.

    What they are going for is expansion but not domination... they don't need to command all the seas of the world at once, but they do want to reach countries for trade and be able to engage in trade with any country that want to trade with them.

    Rant over....

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    Post  Krepost Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:55 am

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    Post  hoom Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:00 am

    Each engine unit in the Karakurt has one of these coupled engine units for each shaft, there are three shafts, so that is six engines.
    Yes I know that, I've made that explanation up-thread.
    Additionally the plant had been ticking over on repairs since the break up of the USSR so a slow ramp up is understandable when they suddenly got an order for 6048 cylinders of engines needed ASAP.

    But we're approaching 8yrs since that order and there are a stack of hulls waiting on engines, there really should be some signs of improvement by now.
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    Post  kumbor Sun Jan 02, 2022 8:30 am

    hoom wrote:
    Each engine unit in the Karakurt has one of these coupled engine units for each shaft, there are three shafts, so that is six engines.
    Yes I know that, I've made that explanation up-thread.
    Additionally the plant had been ticking over on repairs since the break up of the USSR so a slow ramp up is understandable when they suddenly got an order for 6048 cylinders of engines needed ASAP.

    But we're approaching 8yrs since that order and there are a stack of hulls waiting on engines, there really should be some signs of improvement by now.


    According to displacement, hull properties and full speed of 30 knots, there should be two shafts and two coupled engines M-507, with cca 21.000shp in all. Gas turbines would be better solution, but, possibly there is no place in the hull to install GT ducts.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:55 pm

    SEVASTOPOL, January 14. /TASS/. Passage of factory sea trials is completed on a small missile ship (MRK) "Cyclone", built for the Black Sea Fleet (BSF). A number of systems have already been tested, the press service of the Black Sea Fleet told reporters on Friday.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/13425935

    Project 22800: "Karakurt" class missile ship #2 - Page 2 93757910

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