Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+75
xeno
diabetus
Eugenio Argentina
Mir
Podlodka77
The-thing-next-door
Begome
Walther von Oldenburg
Erk
zorobabel
Azi
AlfaT8
Regular
0nillie0
dionis
crod
franco
Belisarius
Airbornewolf
sepheronx
11E
Arkanghelsk
Werewolf
GunshipDemocracy
Firebird
OminousSpudd
mnztr
ucmvulcan
ATLASCUB
sundoesntrise
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
Backman
calripson
littlerabbit
Tolstoy
andalusia
par far
ArgentinaGuard
bandit6
caveat emptor
Lennox
Atmosphere
bitcointrader70
lancelot
magnumcromagnon
ARYGER
marcellogo
Odin of Ossetia
LMFS
JohninMK
nomadski
kvs
Singular_Transform
lyle6
x_54_u43
Arrow
Hole
jhelb
Sujoy
Rodion_Romanovic
miketheterrible
Tsavo Lion
Broski
George1
SeigSoloyvov
thegopnik
limb
Big_Gazza
TMA1
flamming_python
PapaDragon
Scorpius
ALAMO
Isos
RTN
79 posters

    Talking bollocks thread #4

    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5975
    Points : 5995
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:48 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    What brains and what production capacity?

    They are by far intellectually and industrially inferior to Russia. They cannot even make enough shells for a proxy war.

    This is by no means  to say that Russia should neglect to further their advantages, just that they should perhaps take a more balanced approach and not spend all thier resources on low numbers of wunderwaffe to defeat the imaginary armies of a perceived intelligent enemy. The gato hordes real strength lies in thier numbers, hence Russia needs an arsenal optimised for culling, not pinpricks.

    Compare number of UAV/Vgen fighters / carriers/ LDS or subs built last 20years to check the facts on both sides.
    Let's agree to disagree. Im glad that your point of view is not shared by Russian military nor leadership.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5975
    Points : 5995
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Oct 01, 2023 1:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    true, but Serpentine is just meant ot be better. Kinzhal -2000km (of which roughly half due to fighter-carrier) . Serpentine - 4?5000 km. No need to use fighter...
    Imagine missiles that could reach US fleet/military installations in Hawaii...

    Their own comparisons with the Chinese missile suggest it is exactly the sort of Intermediate and Medium range ballistic missile that was banned by the INF treaty so the range is probably going to be from 1,500km up to anything they like... if it is a solid ballistic rocket that carries reentry vehicles that have scramjet motors that only start running as they reenter the atmosphere then they might be vulnerable to interception while still in space where they can't manouver, but I would expect they would be intended to come down some distance from the target area and then fly through the upper atmosphere on a scramjet motor... to maintain speed and enable it to dodge and weave and still maintain speed... they could have a mix of gliders which will be smaller and lighter and cheaper and able to be carried in much larger numbers, or mini missiles which can be dropped off near the target and fly the last stage at very high speed at very high altitude and then dive on the target nearly vertically...


    That is my understanding  how it would work but let's live to see. BTW Rubezh/Avangard looks like good reference to me. Just I presume its is smaller much smaller.




    So you need to hit something moving 30knots with cep lett then 20m form thousands vkm distance flying 10omach r more. Quite a tech achievement if you ask me.

    Flying at mach 10 for 1,500km for Zircon and probably mach 8 or 9 for Kinzhal for a very similar range and they still find their targets it seems.


    Russians claimed 1000km her ewe got couple thousands so homing will be much harder.  by 10m and 5000km carrier has like 30km in any direction



    “The Kinzhal hypersonic missile, which is installed today on MiG-31K fighters and is essentially an adaptation of the Iskander for an aircraft carrier, has a destruction range of 1,500 kilometers - three times greater than that of its land version,” a source in the defense industry told RIA Novosti . industrial complex. He noted that long-range Tu-22M3 bombers will be able to use Kinzhals at the same distance.


    The fact that he says that the Kinzhal can reach the same distance from an aircraft that can fly at mach 2 tops and to about 11km or 12km altitude suggests that the range for the MiG-31K is conservative because it could fly at Mach 2.83 at the very least and at altitudes of 18-20km, which is a significant difference.

    []
    I mean at the altitude this missile would fly wouldn't the trade winds be relevant?
    That would have a huge effect on range.

    second that




    Their hypersonic missiles will be the best and also very very expensive and most HATO countries will only buy a few hours worth of missiles and just assume America will have more when they need them.

    They wont have a lot of money to waste moving forward... even now there are protests in western countries about supporting Kiev at a time when they need money spent on their own territory for their own people.

    The west needs to build a complete integrated air defence network or their air power is useless and horribly vulnerable... in a conflict with Russia 70-80% of their weapons are probably going to be shot down, while 80-90% of Russian weapons will get through... how can they have any confidence of surviving let alone winning?

    Russia has how many 200-250 modern fighters now? (Su-35/Su-30sm/Su-57) compare to the west.  Say Typhons/Superhornets/Rafale/F-35/F-22  count and you can see. Its not rosy , yes Russia does brilinag in game wrt theyr resources but underestimating west would be nto good at all .


    They wont need best missiles its enough they ar eon pair but much more of them.  Why do you think they cant build what they need? They already produced many Vgen fighters Russia has like 14?  Not to mention electronics/industrial robots/navy

    As for money they will budgets in all western countries are going up. Their GDP PPP is ~ 10x of Russia and industrial capacity is perhaps let then 10xtimes but enough to make more of everything.  People will always protest that's why they are brainwashed regarding climate and sustainability  and they will bend to new budgets Smile
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10632
    Points : 10610
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 47
    Location : Scholzistan

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  Hole Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:13 pm

    Their GDP PPP is ~ 10x of Russia

    lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1

    sepheronx, Big_Gazza and kvs like this post

    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5975
    Points : 5995
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:28 pm

    Hole wrote:
    Their GDP PPP is ~ 10x of Russia

    lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1 lol1

    NATO from first 20 excluding Turkey but including Australia and Korea
    ~ 46,670,000 B$

    Russia 5,326,855 B

    According to WB

    https://databankfiles.worldbank.org/public/ddpext_download/GDP_PPP.pdf
    sepheronx
    sepheronx


    Posts : 8520
    Points : 8782
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 34
    Location : Canada

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  sepheronx Sun Oct 01, 2023 10:20 pm

    That's not how it works numbnuts

    The-thing-next-door likes this post

    Scorpius
    Scorpius


    Posts : 1462
    Points : 1462
    Join date : 2020-11-06
    Age : 36

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  Scorpius Sun Oct 01, 2023 10:44 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    NATO from first 20  excluding Turkey but including Australia and Korea
    ~ 46,670,000 B$

    Russia 5,326,855 B

    According to WB

    It would be important if we were playing Monopoly.

    sepheronx, Big_Gazza, kvs, The-thing-next-door, owais.usmani, Broski and Belisarius like this post

    lyle6
    lyle6


    Posts : 2174
    Points : 2168
    Join date : 2020-09-14
    Location : Philippines

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  lyle6 Mon Oct 02, 2023 3:25 am

    GDP is such a fucking garbage metric for measuring military power.

    The Mongols all had their GDP in their horses and they brought down empires with GDP 1000 times greater than theirs.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, kvs, owais.usmani, Broski and Belisarius like this post

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4630
    Points : 4622
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Oct 02, 2023 5:29 am

    How can one accept GDP at face value when it includes printing of fiat money and debt issuance?   Razz Razz Razz Razz Razz

    Some Western nations even include illegal prostitution and illicit drugs in their GDP estimates....

    Good little anecdote.

    China makes a washing machine. Costs $128 to make, they sell for $250. Chinese GDP increases by $122.
    US imports the washing machine. Sells for $599. US GDP increases by $349.
    US economy is 286% as productive as China.
    Only fecking morons can accept this twisted self-serving nonsense. Laughing

    sepheronx, GarryB, kvs, The-thing-next-door, owais.usmani, lyle6, lancelot and like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38893
    Points : 39389
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 02, 2023 7:59 am

    Perhaps the problem is in translation? Kinzhal is a name of complex, missile itself is called 9-S-7760. I was referring to missile range not complex. Perhaps MiGneeds 500km to get to height and speed needed to launch missile?

    If the range given is from the airfield the aircraft took off from then at top speed the MiG-31K has a flight radius of about 750km, but probably 250km of that accelerating to top speed and altitude, but the aircraft has an inflight refuelling probe does it not?

    Which means the missiles range should be unlimited...

    The Tu-22M3M has an inflight refuelling probe too and Kinzhal carried externally would allow an enormous internal fuel tank to be fitted to massively extend flight range if required.

    Russians claimed 1000km her ewe got couple thousands so homing will be much harder. by 10m and 5000km carrier has like 30km in any direction

    Not sure what you are saying here???

    A missile flying at 3km per second can fly 1,000km in less than 10 minutes... in fact just under 6 minutes.

    The fastest Ship in the US navy... lets listen to their bullshit and pretend their carriers can run at 45 knots, so 45 knots is approximately 52 miles per hour and 52 miles per hour is approximately 84km/h, and at 84km/h, which is about 1.4km per minute, so a ship sailing at 45 knots can move 1.4km per minute so in 6 minutes that is 8.4km distance that ship can move in the 6 minutes that missile will take to cover that 1,000km distance.

    The thing is that ships don't accelerate and decelerate very fast or very easy, so if the ship was stationary when the missile was launched in the six minute flight time that ship wont be doing 45 knots by the time that missile arrives.

    That missile will also most likely be flying at an altitude above 30km so its view of the target area as it approaches is going to be amazing and picking out a carrier from open sea is going to be easy... if it looks where it expects the ship to be and there is nothing there but there is a carrier 5km away from that expected position then of course changing its course and hitting that is going to be the easiest thing in the world... the MiG-31K does not have any equipment on board to detect the target at that distance so the target information must have come from something else... satellite or sub or aircraft or ship, so as the missile gets closer to the target area further updates on the position and speed of the target ship could be sent to update where the missile looks for the target when it gets within range.

    Finding an aircraft carrier is not problem at all in such circumstances.

    Russia has how many 200-250 modern fighters now? (Su-35/Su-30sm/Su-57) compare to the west. Say Typhons/Superhornets/Rafale/F-35/F-22 count and you can see. Its not rosy , yes Russia does brilinag in game wrt theyr resources but underestimating west would be nto good at all .

    You are missing the wood for the trees... how many of those western aircraft are prepared to operate in Russian controlled airspace... hell you can take the entire Russian air force out of the equation and ask how many western aircraft are prepared to operate over territory the Russian Army is operating in with Verba and Igla-S and TOR and Tunguska and Pantsir and BUK and S-300V4 and Viking?

    Well lets look at how western forces did against the Houties...

    And how tolerant to losses are HATO countries... if it was 400K US soldiers dead in Ukraine how would things be going now?

    As for money they will budgets in all western countries are going up. Their GDP PPP is ~ 10x of Russia and industrial capacity is perhaps let then 10xtimes but enough to make more of everything.

    Western GDP is smoke and mirrors, where loans count as income and you will get a riot when Burger King runs out of woppers and McDs runs out of Big Macs, or the Wifi stops. When conscription notices start to get sent out in the west you watch how many young men suddenly identify as pregnant females who can't be eligible for the draft.

    The west spending money funding Kiev and also arming themselves to the teeth is going to seriously impact their economies in a seriously bad way because neither of those things improves the lives of their citizens or improves their financial position viz a vs their neighbours and rivals.

    When they start cutting services and things get more expensive and everything just gets a little harder for everyone there are going to be a lot of people asking why are we spending money on Kiev or killing Russians when we should be spending money on our elderly or our future...

    NATO from first 20 excluding Turkey but including Australia and Korea
    ~ 46,670,000 B$

    But the stuff they are spending that money on is 100 times more than what Russia pays.

    Javelin missiles are 700K each, Kornet is a better missile and they sell to foreign customers at 5K each, and it only gets worse with other stuff they don't make near enough for themselves let alone for Kiev.

    Not to mention they can't all work together properly... HATO never operates as a complete force with every country contributing everything they have.

    Their tanks don't even use the same main gun ammo... and engines and tracks and drive trains and all their optics and systems are all different for their tanks and their BMPs and their BTRs... many don't speak the same language... and are libel to be told by their politicians they can do this but not that... how does that go with regard to chain of command?

    Big_Gazza and kvs like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38893
    Points : 39389
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:01 am

    The US and the EU can't buy their way out of this situation and they are clearly looking for chances and opportunities to do so.

    sepheronx, Big_Gazza, kvs and Broski like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6633
    Points : 6723
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  ALAMO Mon Oct 02, 2023 8:14 am

    NATO's given numbers are extremely misleading.
    When two Luftwaffe's Eurofighters collided over Muritz back in 2019, the number of operational planes in Germany fell by 20%.
    Yes. ONE FIFTH.
    Back in 2018, it was reported that 10 are mission ready. TEN.
    What was even more hilarious, the entire weapons stock was enough to arm 4. FOUR.
    Even in their own papers given to the Bundestag commission, they put a number of 39 out of 128 to be operational. By "operational" they considered each single piece that could fly, no matter if it has the vital subsystems or weapons. Most of those were only capable for maneuvers.
    And it is not a joke.
    What do you think, how is the situation different for the Netherlands, or Belgium? Or Portugal?
    Those are NATO realities, with no pink powder. Nor white one Laughing

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, kvs, zardof, Hole, Broski and Belisarius like this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2702
    Points : 2694
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  Arrow Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:42 am

    VKS has approximately 430 new Su30SM/Su34/Su35S/Su57/Mig 29 SMT aircraft. To this must be added over 100 modernized MiG-31BMs. That's about 530 modern planes. I did not take into account losses during SMO. This number will increase.

    GarryB and owais.usmani like this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15093
    Points : 15230
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  kvs Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:Javelin missiles are 700K each, Kornet is a better missile and they sell to foreign customers at 5K each

    Thank your injecting some actual facts into the discussion. All WB PPP GDP estimates are based on consumer sector prices.
    The PPP is a weighted average of PPP factors for individual products. Above we have a PPP factor of 140. It is not a one off
    outlier example. It spans a whole slew of military products. For the Project 636.3 submarine the PPP factor is 6 which is lower but still
    a lot. So my post in the Ukr war thread of a PPP factor of over 5 for the Russian MIC is too low. Also, both of our PPP examples are
    based on export prices and not even domestic prices that the Russian government pays.

    The US military budget has endless corrupt fluff. It is designed to siphon taxpayer and government borrowing money to the oligarchy.
    So various military services such as catering which are not related to weapons are overpriced grift which Russia simply does not have.
    The 800 US bases around the world are part of this grift since they involve construction and food provision expenses.

    GarryB, Big_Gazza, Hole and Broski like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38893
    Points : 39389
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:00 am

    And there is no chance of an investigation because everyone knows exactly what is happening and they make sure enough of the money and power goes around so that it is in no ones interests to rock the boat.

    A pentagon general in charge of buying transport planes will be dealing with Boeing and the person Boeing has as a consultant for the deals is that Pentagon generals former boss who just retired from his job at the pentagon.

    Boeing hired him because he knows how the pentagon works and who makes the decisions, and as an added bonus when the ex pentagon general now working for Boeing for 3 million bucks a year plus benefits in addition to his military pension... he can just say.... look at what I am making, my job is to wine and dine you for information and for sales and in five or ten years you are going to retire from your job and I will have made enough money to retire from mine. If you spend the next five or ten years giving us lots of contracts then I will make sure I suggest your name first as the best person to replace me at Boeing at my current cushy job.

    For Boeing it gets contracts, and the millions they pay in wages to these guys is peanuts compared to the billions in military contracts they get in return... C-17s were costing 500 million dollars each... half a billion US dollars each... and they stopped asking for them because they set up production in the places where the senators that OKed the Pentagons budget were voted in or out. They did the same with the F-35.

    It meant the logistics of the F-35 were terrible and they were made in places with high unemployment miles away from anything else so shipping costs and getting skilled workers was always a problem, but it meant they always got funding and neither programme could be cut down let alone cut or that senator with the purse strings would get kicked out of office by the unemployed workers losing their high payed jobs.

    That is what corruption is all about... the government officials would fund new C-17s every budget just to keep the factories in their voting districts open and working, the Pentagon didn't even bother including them in their budget... it worked so well they repeated the exercise with the F-35, which just made it more expensive.

    Imagine making a complex piece of machinery where you decided where parts got made based on where the politicians that decided on funding had their votes come from... so in the UK imagine a politician in charge of funding for tanks who comes from the Orkney Islands... so the British MIC builds a factory for assembling tank engines on the Orkney Islands. It would increase costs by hundreds of times and cause a lot of disruption and problems, but they will never even scale back production of tanks let alone think of cancelling them.

    The real irony doing it for the F-35 which was supposed to be the cheap light fighter that everyone bought so costs would be kept low and it would be cheap enough to buy and operate in enormous numbers... hahahahaha.

    kvs likes this post

    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15093
    Points : 15230
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  kvs Tue Oct 03, 2023 1:25 pm

    The corruption has been going on for so long that it has evolved. The products themselves (F-35, etc.) are designed to maximize the
    flow of filthy lucre. The F-35 is engineered to be hanger queen. Its "sophistication" is a con job. Nominally none of the parts of
    the F-35 should be "breaking down" so often that it is 50% flight ready. But these components and their system synergy are all rotten.

    I think that these puppet masters never really expected to have peer opponents. So they were not concerned with the F-35 and other
    equipment being truly battlefield ready and robust. The corruption assumes pax Americana and sporadic colonial suppression campaigns
    where even a 50% operationally ready F-35 is sufficient.

    This culture has not taken over Russia, yet. But there are whiffs of corporate greed that one can catch in the UVZ haggling over the
    Armata. Having state ownership over critical means of production such as the MIC is a good thing for Russia. The US private sector
    control model is a progressive failure.

    GarryB, lancelot and Broski like this post

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6633
    Points : 6723
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  ALAMO Tue Oct 03, 2023 1:37 pm

    F-35 can be the last nail to the coffin of the Murican MIC as we know it.
    Sounds like there must be a backpath to the realities of the 50s-70s, when a brand new jet was introduced every few years.

    GarryB, kvs and Hole like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38893
    Points : 39389
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 04, 2023 3:00 am

    Well the corruption feeds the corruption... when you make a plane that everyone is supposed to use so you can mass produce spare parts for it so any HATO country will have a spare parts pool that others can borrow from if they need it and a super integrated support network system that goes across countries and allows HATO to do that, it sounds like it has enormous potential, but like every other HATO project they can't even agree on the same assault rifle let alone fighter aircraft.

    So the amazing supply sharing system was cancelled too...

    But worse than that, they are under constant pressure to keep costs at a minimum so their linings and materials and other components are bargain basement stuff as super cheap as they can get them so most of it is from China and it is the crap stuff that is made to a price which is awful.

    To be clear China made some of the worst AKMs and some that are up there with the best, but when made for price they were awful... and probably $60 per rifle.

    The problem is that they were not very accurate with any ammo so when greedy western companies started importing AKs to the west or bought AKs for their little terrorist groups like the Muj in Afghanistan their accuracy was terrible.

    A lot of the problems and failures with the F-35 is because of this cheap bargain basement stuff they are using to try to reduce the price they charge.

    The irony is that the US is currently talking about corruption in Kiev, and might use that as their excuse to withhold funding, which is hilarious, because for every Ukrainian making a bundle out of this there will be ten in the US becoming millionaires... just middle men who will go to countries like Pakistan or China and bulk buy ammo and weapons and then sell them to the US or EU countries to supply to Kiev with a 1,000% markup... and they will of course pay it... they don't have a lot of places to buy it from and they need as much as they can get.

    A few big corruption trials for Boeing and a few others sounds good but is terribly unlikely because they are monopolies that can't be replaced any time soon, so it will be like the Epstein case where some nobody gets picked on to take the fall for everyone because everyone is doing it, and then everyone else pretends to behave and reduces their corruption or letchering to stay under the radar till the smoke clears.

    The problem is that politicians and MIC companies and the Pentagon all cooperate in it so anyone trying to expose it all will get attacked by everyone for trying to destroy america... despite this corruption being what is destroying america.

    kvs and lancelot like this post

    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 2702
    Points : 2694
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  Arrow Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:37 am

    As for the F35. The USA already has almost 500 planes. Maybe it's not the best plane. However, quantity is also quality Very Happy . In total, an even greater quantity was produced. That's quite impressive for a declining US industry. Who recently produced so many aircraft of a given type?
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5975
    Points : 5995
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:42 am

    That's off topic, Off Topic Off Topic Off Topic

    What I provided was an example to illustrate that western industrial or scintific capabilities are real and huge. This was in no way diminishing Russia's capabilities nor anti Russian. But before fight it's good to know your enemy. Do you really believe that Putin &co believe that Russia is the biggest industrial nation or west has no brains nor industrial capabilities? I dotn think so. You can believe tho in whatever you choose to. Your choice.




    I don't think it is appropriate to call people names in a discussion forum. I'm here to have a civil discussion about the topic at hand, and I would appreciate it if you would do the same.





    talking numbers:
    page 16 Russia is not even in top 10 industrial robot installation not to mention production
    https://ifr.org/downloads/press2018/2022_WR_extended_version.pdf

    Of course, one of the main areas of application of robots is industrial production. The number of industrial robots in Russia is constantly growing, but so far at a low rate - 1000-1200 units per year.

    Russian source form end of September 2023
    https://rg.ru/2023/09/26/robot-vstal-k-stanku.html




    commercial airliners 2021

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/622779/number-of-jets-delivered-global-aircraft-fleet-by-manufacturer/

    Embraer alone build same amount of airplanes as Russia and China alone. 41 Airbus 611 Boeing 340 and is was rather not the best year for world's production. Its 25 times more.



    end off topic. Off Topic Off Topic Off Topic

    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6633
    Points : 6723
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  ALAMO Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:19 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    end off topic. Off Topic  Off Topic  Off Topic

    I guess that you are missing the whole point.
    There is not much sense in disputing which country or block has a bigger economical potential, because one must be dumb to argue that.
    The US is much above 300mln souls, making it more than twice the size of Russia.
    EU is 500+.
    "Collective west" considered globally totals 1 bln people, and includes industrial hubs like Japan and Korea.
    But of course they will win on numbers with Russkie at any moment.

    But here comes the magic.
    First, you should make a short check to your numbers, because the number of modern planes Russkie has is not 200-250 pcs, but some 500+
    For the west, deliveries of new generation airplanes began in the mid-90s, which is functionally more than a decade advantage towards Russia. The bulk of the west's modern multirole planes is constructed along Eurofighter, with almost 600 pcs produced.
    Considering the timetable, the number, the size of the country, and the size of the economy - things start to not add up.
    It turns out that 10x the size of economy (only if considered as PPP) made only 4 (arguable)x more of the planes, in a decade longer time.
    What's more, those planes have not been assisted by the air defense, that Russkie developed alongside. Russkie fielded no less than 30 (!!) regiments of S-400, with countess modernized S-300, Buk-M3, Viking, Pantsir, Tor, and all the other flora&fauna.

    So what we have at the end of this considerations, is an enormous scale of western corruption and infectivity.
    And we don't need to argue about that, as the thing is simply crystal clear.
    19 months into the war, not only the European militaries haven't increased it's potential, but runned out of stocks for every single weapon type they had.
    19 months into the war, and the US fielding with bells&whistles ONE piece of newly build F-15.
    Replacement ratios for fundamental weapon systems like Stingers or Javelins are measured in years.
    Not a single new tank has rolled out of a factory in Europe, that used to produce FOUR different tanks, and if we add East Europe, the number jumps up to SEVEN.
    What's the difference it makes how many CNC machines they have, if it gets crystal clear that they have not a single clue how to use them, or have no money to do so?

    GarryB and Belisarius like this post

    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5975
    Points : 5995
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Oct 04, 2023 10:52 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Perhaps the problem is in translation?  Kinzhal is a name of complex, missile itself is called 9-S-7760.  I was referring to missile  range not complex. Perhaps MiGneeds 500km to get to height and speed needed to launch missile?

    If the range given is from the airfield the aircraft took off from then at top speed the MiG-31K has a flight radius of about 750km, but probably 250km of that accelerating to top speed and altitude, but the aircraft has an inflight refuelling probe does it not?

    Which means the missiles range should be unlimited...

    The Tu-22M3M has an inflight refuelling probe too and Kinzhal carried externally would allow an enormous internal fuel tank to be fitted to massively extend flight range if required.



    so how many tankers Russia has available on each airfield where Tu-22 or Mig-31k is based? The data I provided are from Russian from govt media, you are free to deny them.





    Russians claimed 1000km her ewe got couple thousands so homing will be much harder.  by 10m and 5000km carrier has like 30km in any direction

    Not sure what you are saying here???

    A missile flying at 3km per second can fly 1,000km in less than 10 minutes... in fact just under 6 minutes.

    The fastest Ship in the US navy... lets listen to their bullshit and pretend their carriers can run at 45 knots, so 45 knots is approximately 52 miles per hour and 52 miles per hour is approximately 84km/h, and at 84km/h, which is about 1.4km per minute, so a ship sailing at 45 knots can move 1.4km per minute so in 6 minutes that is 8.4km distance that ship can move in the 6 minutes that missile will take to cover that 1,000km distance.


    assuming distance 5000km (please reread my sentence) it gives ~30 minutes of flight. and aircraft carrier (they at war dont slow really approaching Russian shores? Or you assume their navy os relaxed knowing is can be hit?






    That missile will also most likely be flying at an altitude above 30km so its view of the target area as it approaches is going to be amazing and picking out a carrier from open sea is going to be easy... if it looks where it expects the ship to be and there is nothing there but there is a carrier 5km away from that expected position then of course changing its course and hitting that is going to be the easiest thing in the world... the MiG-31K
    .

    were we talking about Serpentine of Mig-31? Migs dont carry Serpentine. 5km in half hour so AC travels 1,5 knots?  One of Serpentines objective was also the dark eagle ~ 3000km range. So we know minimum range then.  Guess why Russian dont want to use Migs if they can do anything?





    Russia has how many 200-250 modern fighters now? (Su-35/Su-30sm/Su-57) compare to the west.  Say Typhons/Superhornets/Rafale/F-35/F-22  count and you can see. Its not rosy , yes Russia does brilliant in game wrt their resources but underestimating west would be nto good at all .

    You are missing the wood for the trees... how many of those western aircraft are prepared to operate in Russian controlled airspace... hell you can take the entire Russian air force out of the equation and ask how many western aircraft are prepared to operate over territory the Russian Army is operating in with Verba and Igla-S and TOR and Tunguska and Pantsir and BUK and S-300V4 and Viking?

    [/quote]

    same goes the other side look at Urine and Russian AF. BTW is there's so many working Tunguska's why in Urine simple OSAS or even MTLBs with AAD weapons' used? . NATO is stupid and have no missiles like storm shadow/Taurus or scalp at all?  Dotn they have planning bombs? No Russian AAd sites were affected/hit?

    Do you think that the  west would first use airforce to enter saturated area with AADs? not use standoff missiles/drones?


    After wiki:
    [u]4000 tomahawks US only[/b]https://www.wsj.com/articles/japan-to-spend-billions-on-u-s-tomahawk-missiles-in-military-buildup-11671784716



    September 2016, Lockheed Martin had delivered 2,000 total JASSMs comprising both variants to the USA
    How many tomahawks can station in Poland Romania or float around Russian shores?

    You really have very optimistic point of view, glad Russian Staff dont share it.
    tolerant to losses are HATO countries... if it was 400K US soldiers dead in Ukraine how would things be going now?
    [/quote]

    we are talking about major Russia NATO wars or some colonial intervention in Urine ?  With USit would to be 400k dead in the  first place. US could reach most of Russian metropolis r industrial centers unlike urine.



    Urine has just enough of weapons to keep war going not to win. US would lead war to win. Im not saying they would win for sure but it would not be so comfortable for Russia either.






    As for money they will budgets in all western countries are going up. Their GDP PPP is ~ 10x of Russia and industrial capacity is perhaps let then 10xtimes but enough to make more of everything.

    Western GDP is smoke and mirrors, where loans count as income and you will get a riot when Burger King runs out of woppers and McDs runs out of Big Macs, or the Wifi stops. When conscription notices start to get sent out in the west you watch how many young men suddenly identify as pregnant females who can't be eligible for the draft.


    Western bloc is around billion people Russia has below 160 millions. Do you think everyone is fit for service in Russia and willing to go? seriously? Western gdp is so far reflected in avg person much higher life comfort, health services better cars or better .  So you are free in believe whatever you wan to but please check the numbers first.







    When they start cutting services and things get more expensive and everything just gets a little harder for everyone there are going to be a lot of people asking why are we spending money on Kiev or killing Russians when we should be spending money on our elderly or our future...

    doesn't matter reeally,  elites will redo covid or alines to keep population frightened and under control. NZ inclusive. Will you organize guerilla movement? or obey?





    NATO from first 20 excluding Turkey but including Australia and Korea
    ~ 46,670,000 B$

    But the stuff they are spending that money on is 100 times more than what Russia pays.

    Javelin missiles are 700K each, Kornet is a better missile and they sell to foreign customers at 5K each, and it only gets worse with other stuff they don't make near enough for themselves let alone for Kiev.

    no it's not true:

    https://taskandpurpose.com/news/army-javelin-missile-contract-ukraine/

    not 700 but below  $180 k. You believe that industry in Russia van do more than in the whole west?  

    Kornet ~10times less according to TV Zvezda the official channel of Russian Army)
    https://tvzvezda.ru/news/201806011053-ky93.htm


    With bigger serial production this perhaps even go down with Us made AGTMS.










    Their tanks don't even use the same main gun ammo... and engines and tracks and drive trains and all their optics and systems are all different for their tanks and their BMPs and their BTRs... many don't speak the same language... and are libel to be told by their politicians they can do this but not that... how does that go with regard to chain of command?

    Like Leo and Abrams which are most popular tanks there? Do Russian t62/  t-55 and T-72  use the same ammo? T-80 and T-90 use the same engines?  same ACS ? same partsd 100 are used in BMP-1 BMP-2 and BMP-3? They all are being used in Urine,  Read Rybar or Kotenok in electronic   comms or artillery's coordination urine has better stuff. Russian soldiers opinion.

    again pls read Russian (and pro Russian) sources - they also say about incompetent generals /  problems with supplies. Why almost all TG channels collect money for soldiers equipment? or cars? or even clothes? Not rosy on both sides im afraid.


    And yes Im pro Russian but ignoring deficiencies in bad, especially for fighting soldiers.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5975
    Points : 5995
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:37 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    I guess that you are missing the whole point.
    There is not much sense in disputing which country or block has a bigger economical potential, because one must be dumb to argue that.
    The US is much above 300mln souls, making it more than twice the size of Russia.
    EU is 500+.
    "Collective west" considered globally totals 1 bln people, and includes industrial hubs like Japan and Korea.
    But of course they will win on numbers with Russkie at any moment.

    then all my attackers will jump to your throat like Rabbit of Caerbannog




    First, you should make a short check to your numbers, because the number of modern planes Russkie has is not 200-250 pcs, but some 500+

    including old Mig-29 and not upgraded- Su-27 sure. Then west has like  5000 fighters?

    As for numbers Mmdern Su-35 is ~100 Su-30 ~ 100 ,  110 vupgraded MiG-31? where is the rest?




    Alamo wrote:
    For the west, deliveries of new generation airplanes began in the mid-90s, which is functionally more than a decade advantage towards Russia. The bulk of the west's modern multirole planes is constructed along Eurofighter, with almost 600 pcs produced.  
    Considering the timetable, the number, the size of the country, and the size of the economy - things start to not add up.
    It turns out that 10x the size of economy (only if considered as PPP) made only 4 (arguable)x more of the planes, in a decade longer time.


    That's true they mad less planes per country because none thought they enter war against on pair opponent. Not because they could not. Enough to compare civilian aircraft production 25times more then Russia in 2021.




    So what we have at the end of this considerations, is an enormous scale of western corruption and infectivity.
    And we don't need to argue about that, as the thing is simply crystal clear.

    That's the way capitalism' works, including Russia and Poland, Korea or Japan (how many embezzlements investigations were in Russia  MIC last 2 years?) Russian monopolized state industries started to be more efficient.




    19 months into the war, not only the European militaries haven't increased it's potential, but runned out of stocks for every single weapon type they had.
    19 months into the war, and the US fielding with bells&whistles ONE piece of newly build F-15.
    Replacement ratios for fundamental weapon systems like Stingers or Javelins are measured in years.
    Not a single new tank has rolled out of a factory in Europe, that used to produce FOUR different tanks, and if we add East Europe, the number jumps up to SEVEN.
    What's the difference it makes how many CNC machines they have, if it gets crystal clear that they have not a single clue how to use them, or have no money to do so?



    They have the clue just didn't switch to war industry mode yet. Simply there is not enough orders.  BTW flight global says 141 F-35 was made
    https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/lockheed-delivery-numbers-falter-as-pentagon-stops-accepting-new-f-35s/154178.article#:~:text=Lockheed's%202023%20F%2D35%20production,Lockheed%20delivered%20141%20F%2D35s.

    Hungary alone  ordered 44 Leos-2 alone not sure if any were made but form 2023 were to be delivered till 2025
    Norway beginning of 2023 ordered 54 already so they make tanks according to orders, no orders no production. Do you really believe Germans don't know how to manufacture?



    Russia doesn't make 140 fighters per year isnt it?  and they are not yet at war.


    and another source like 12 F-15x (of 144 ordered)
    https://www.airandspaceforces.com/weapons-platforms/f-15ex/#:~:text=USAF%20awarded%20Boeing%20a%20%241.2,over%20the%20next%20five%20years.


    so no they can and will make if there's political decision. Dont mix please budget decisions and industrial capbilities.
    avatar
    ALAMO


    Posts : 6633
    Points : 6723
    Join date : 2014-11-25

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  ALAMO Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:01 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    including old Mig-29 and not upgraded- Su-27 sure. Then west has like  5000 fighters?
    As for numbers Mmdern Su-35 is ~100 Su-30 ~ 100 ,  110 vupgraded MiG-31? where is the rest?

    Lurke for that once more, seriously Very Happy
    There are about 20+ Su-57, to begin with. Freshly new rolling out.
    Su-35 number is +/- 130 pcs, with a steady roll of new ones.
    Su-30 in all it's variations is well beyond 100 pcs
    Su-34 is approx. 150, with new ones still rolling.
    Su-27SM is puzzling, as there were several contracts, not all of them executed, but overall I suppose we have some 50+ pcs.
    Now add a couple of MiG-29SMT, and we end up well above 500 pcs limit. And every single one of them is better than most of the Europe F-16 fleet.

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    They have the clue just didn't switch to war industry mode yet.

    And they won't, as can't afford that.
    None of the L2s will be produced, only refurbished.
    There is no discussion about reopening production until new paneuropean tank will arrive. In 20 years.

    GarryB and Hole like this post

    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18290
    Points : 18787
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  George1 Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:37 pm

    pls stay on topic

    LMFS, owais.usmani and gc3762 like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 38893
    Points : 39389
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 05, 2023 6:11 am

    As for the F35. The USA already has almost 500 planes. Maybe it's not the best plane. However, quantity is also quality Very Happy . In total, an even greater quantity was produced. That's quite impressive for a declining US industry. Who recently produced so many aircraft of a given type?

    How much damage have they done to their military producing over 600 aircraft that are still fundamentally flawed in a number of areas, including excessive purchase and operational costs, and they still suffocate their pilots because the oxygen system is still not fixed. The more F-35s they can get into HATO air forces the more HATO budgets will be tied up keeping them running... but more importantly look at the other 5th gen fighter projects the Europeans and other western allies are working on... the Japs and the South Koreans each have a 5th gen fighter design, the Europeans have the tempest and Turkey has its own design too, so shortly the French and Germans will decide they can't work with the British and that will be three new separate programmes too.

    More critically all these programmes will burn more money and take away orders for the F-35 programme which will make each aircraft more expensive because they wont be buying as many as they planned for.


    What I provided was an example to illustrate that western industrial or scintific capabilities are real and huge.

    They are uncoordinated and corrupt, and without cheap power likely to move to China.



    page 16 Russia is not even in top 10 industrial robot installation not to mention production

    So what? Why do you think they need robot factories to make things?

    Embraer alone build same amount of airplanes as Russia and China alone. 41 Airbus 611 Boeing 340 and is was rather not the best year for world's production. Its 25 times more.

    And how many playstations did Russia make in 2021 and how is that even relevant to the current situation where the west has super sanctions on Russia to try to damage her and murder her people?

    Now Russia is making its own civilian aircraft and China is too how long before Boeing and Airbus start to really struggle with reduced commercial orders and much stronger competition that they can't sabotage with bribes and sanctions?

    end off topic.

    It s OK, I will be moving all of this stuff to the TB thread.

    For the west, deliveries of new generation airplanes began in the mid-90s, which is functionally more than a decade advantage towards Russia. The bulk of the west's modern multirole planes is constructed along Eurofighter, with almost 600 pcs produced.

    Not just that but the first batches of the Typhoon are obsolete and it would cost more to upgrade them to the latest version than it would to scrap them and just make new planes...

    so how many tankers Russia has available on each airfield where Tu-22 or Mig-31k is based? The data I provided are from Russian from govt media, you are free to deny them.

    So Inflight refuelling tankers can only fuel aircraft that operate from the airfield they operate from, and cannot fly to an area and refuel aircraft passing by... at all... they are fully unionised and it is against the rules.


    assuming distance 5000km (please reread my sentence) it gives ~30 minutes of flight. and aircraft carrier (they at war dont slow really approaching Russian shores? Or you assume their navy os relaxed knowing is can be hit?

    I am talking about them moving as fast as possible to show they cannot move fast enough to be a difficult target to find in the time it takes for the Russian missile to get within radar range of the American ships. US carriers never operate at 45 knots because their support ships would be quickly left behind and they would be on their own and easy pickings for enemy subs. I doubt they could launch and recover aircraft at such speeds either.

    were we talking about Serpentine of Mig-31? Migs dont carry Serpentine. 5km in half hour so AC travels 1,5 knots? One of Serpentines objective was also the dark eagle ~ 3000km range. So we know minimum range then. Guess why Russian dont want to use Migs if they can do anything?

    I was making a comparison with Kinzhal. Serpentine is an intermediate range ballistic missile and likely will be moving significantly faster than Kinzhal, and would probably reach targets 2,500km plus away in less than 20 minutes.

    ICBMs travel 10,000km+ in about 30 minutes.


    same goes the other side look at Urine and Russian AF.

    The conflict in Ukraine is a tiny fraction of Russias Army and they are trying to minimise civilian casualties because as far as they are concerned this is a rescue to save pro Russian Ukrainians from pro American Ukrainian Nazis. If Russia was fighting HATO they would be launching cruise missiles at Brussels and centres in EU countries to take out military and political targets to cause max destruction, and considering the performance of PAC-3 in Kiev I would say they would be getting lots of hits.

    NATO is stupid and have no missiles like storm shadow/Taurus or scalp at all?

    They have tiny reserves of such weapons and have not planned for anything other than a colonial war against third world countries... they have nothing like the ammo needed to take on Russia... and wont have for a decade or so.

    Their ammo is expensive and their storage sites are almost empty.

    Dotn they have planning bombs? No Russian AAd sites were affected/hit?

    There are an enormous number of Russian AD vehicles and pieces of equipment in theatre and when they hit something they dance like they won the war.

    If it was western AD systems then they should dance because they don't have many of those, but Russia has plenty of AD vehicles to replace any that are hit.

    Do you think that the west would first use airforce to enter saturated area with AADs? not use standoff missiles/drones?

    The west can use all the standoff weapons and drones they like but their aircraft are going to be slaughtered when they try to enter enemy contested airspace, and their weapons are going to get slaughtered too... they already send most of them to Kiev.

    After wiki:

    The title says Japan to spend billions on missile build up... doesn't sound like they have them ready to launch yet.

    Tomahawks are slow easy targets that most Russian systems can shoot down... Russian missiles seem to get through to their targets most of the time even against prepared Kiev air defences.

    How many tomahawks can station in Poland Romania or float around Russian shores?

    Poland and Romania would be nuked if they did that... an act of war from HATO countries represents a threat to the Russian state and fully justifies a nuclear response.

    US could reach most of Russian metropolis r industrial centers unlike urine.

    they can only reach with nukes, which means they get nuked in reply.

    The US has bent over backwards to avoid direct conflict with Russia in this... is that the actions of a country working from a position of strength as they call it?

    Urine has just enough of weapons to keep war going not to win. US would lead war to win. Im not saying they would win for sure but it would not be so comfortable for Russia either.

    The Ukraine war is about removing nazis, a war with the US and HATO is a war of survival so nukes become necessary and no mercy given to any HATO country that thinks it can strike Russia and be protected by the US.

    Western bloc is around billion people Russia has below 160 millions.

    Japan had a tiny fraction of the number of people that China had in the 1930s, but it was the Soviets that kicked them out... the rest of the world is over 6 billion.

    Western gdp is so far reflected in avg person much higher life comfort, health services better cars or better . So you are free in believe whatever you wan to but please check the numbers first.

    GDP figures is smoke and mirrors... ask an American living in a trailer park all their lives about their white priviledge and how they have it so much better than the Russians.

    GDP does not help when you military industrial complex is openly stealing from you... the Pentagon can't account for hundreds of billions of the dollars it spends each year... enough to fund a country...

    doesn't matter reeally

    And so they get away with it.

    elites will redo covid or alines to keep population frightened and under control. NZ inclusive. Will you organize guerilla movement? or obey?

    Covid was a US designed virus they were testing in China because it would be illegal and too dangerous to test it in the US. Its release was incompetence... if it was planned they would already have a vaccine ready for themselves... that was a huge own goal that weakened the west more than anyone else and they certainly wont want any repeat of that fiasco.

    Kornet ~10times less according to TV Zvezda the official channel of Russian Army)

    Open press? There are export contracts with India for Kornet missiles (the old 5.5km range models) that work out at $5,000 per missile.

    The price of Javelin might be claimed to be $200K but the missiles arriving in Kiev have changed hands many times and even the ones from old stocks are four or five times more than that... that is how the western MIC works.

    With bigger serial production this perhaps even go down with Us made AGTMS.

    With profiteering the price will go up... the price for the F-35 was supposed to go down and it went up...

    And Javelin reaches 2.5km range, which is half the range of the old Kornet, the current Kornet reaches 8.5km (10km with the HE Frag armed version that is capable of anti air use as well as hitting ground targets).

    Like Leo and Abrams which are most popular tanks there? Do Russian t62/ t-55 and T-72 use the same ammo?

    Locally supplied and ready to go. In comparison the British tanks with their rifled 120mm main guns came with the only ammo it could fire... no other HATO country can supply it because no other HATO country uses it.

    The Russians are using upgraded T-72s, T-80s and T-90s for the most part which all use the same 125mm ammo.

    Why almost all TG channels collect money for soldiers equipment? or cars? or even clothes? Not rosy on both sides im afraid.

    Stories of UK tank crew killed in Afghanistan because they had not been issued with flak vests... shit happens in war... it happens to everyone.

    And yes Im pro Russian but ignoring deficiencies in bad, especially for fighting soldiers.

    Expecting the to be no problems is childish and moronic.

    Crying about it and claiming the sky is falling... well you are just cheer leading for the other side.


    then all my attackers will jump to your throat like Rabbit of Caerbannog

    Attackers? Paranoid much?

    Enough to compare civilian aircraft production 25times more then Russia in 2021.

    In 2021 Russian airlines had western planes... that is changing now... you are very disingenuous with your timing.

    What is the enormous ramping up of civil aircraft production in the west going to do to Airbus and Boeing in terms of future sales?

    The west woke the Russian aircraft industry and gave it a real purpose... now it has a brand new range of jet engines coming on line that are state of the art and fully competitive with anything the west has... in fact many western aircraft rely on titanium components from RUSSIA... how is that going to work out?

    If the US wants to fight Russia then perhaps Russia might stop the export of titanium and other important metals to the US... what will they make their planes out of then?

    They have the clue just didn't switch to war industry mode yet. Simply there is not enough orders. BTW flight global says 141 F-35 was made

    The headline in the link you provide says Pentagon stops accepting new F-35s...

    Hungary alone ordered 44 Leos-2 alone not sure if any were made but form 2023 were to be delivered till 2025
    Norway beginning of 2023 ordered 54 already so they make tanks according to orders, no orders no production. Do you really believe Germans don't know how to manufacture?

    Do you think the Germans have a magic switch that makes tanks just appear... their energy costs have quadrupled and all their HATO allies sent all their old crap tanks to Kiev for recycling by Russian artillery and land mines, and now they are all ordering brand new tanks to replace them all... thinking HATO or the US or Kiev will pay for it all. They went from no orders for new tanks to perhaps thousands.... and their factories are shutting down because they don't have the energy to keep them running... they will most likely move to the US because the US is offering great kickbacks.

    Russia doesn't make 140 fighters per year isnt it? and they are not yet at war.

    They don't need 140 new fighters a year, they need missiles and shells and drones and they are making millions.

    pls stay on topic

    Going to shift to talking bollocks thread shortly.

    George1 likes this post


    Sponsored content


    Talking bollocks thread #4 - Page 36 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #4

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:10 am