Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+62
Godric
mavaff
Finty
Daniel_Admassu
bitcointrader70
auslander
gbu48098
UZB-76
elconquistador
LMFS
GarryB
flamming_python
runaway
Hannibal Barca
PhSt
Backman
Tai Hai Chen
SeigSoloyvov
franco
TMA1
medo
PapaDragon
Isos
JohninMK
limb
thegopnik
secretprojects
lancelot
KoTeMoRe
lyle6
Maximmmm
mnztr
Walther von Oldenburg
AlfaT8
Cyberspec
Gomig-21
magnumcromagnon
dino00
marcellogo
owais.usmani
The-thing-next-door
Rodion_Romanovic
walle83
Regular
Odin of Ossetia
par far
RTN
Sujoy
Hole
jhelb
Azi
ultimatewarrior
Tsavo Lion
andalusia
calripson
Arrow
Big_Gazza
ahmedfire
Aristide
miketheterrible
Vann7
kvs
66 posters

    Talking bollocks thread #3

    Sujoy
    Sujoy

    Posts : 1490
    Points : 1650
    Join date : 2012-04-02
    Location : India || भारत

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Sujoy Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:38 am

    Vann7 wrote: s-300s and s-400s failed to protect syria and armenia from drones attacks.
    They are not meant for point defence but rather area defence. Armenia should have used Pantsir-S1 to target drones. However, there are hardly any reports of frequent swarm drone attacks being carried out by Azeris. Just a few. Heavy machine gun fire can down these drones easily, they just need a good sighting system.

    Vann7 wrote:they train with swarm of autonomous drones with artificial intelligence that can't be jammed doing the charge
    Why can't these drones be jammed?

    Vann7 wrote:the future of air defense belong to energy weapons or electromagnetic railguns but also next gen
    anti air magnetic propulsion kinetic artillery.
    Electromagnetic rail gun for air defence? They were initially conceptualized to replace the main gun on surface combatants. But most tests have been un successful. In any case maybe they have potential as area defence weapons much like the S400 but how do you propose to use electromagnetic rail guns for air defence?

    Anti air magnetic propulsion kinectic artillery like Rheinmetall's Sky Guard (video of which you have posted) certainly has potential. Agreed on that count.

    Directed Energy Weapons too will come handy as air defence weapons but they are at least a decade away.
    marcellogo
    marcellogo

    Posts : 473
    Points : 479
    Join date : 2012-08-02
    Age : 52
    Location : Italy

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  marcellogo Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:48 am

    Above all , Vann7 start from a complete false assumption:those swarms of drones still doesn't exist as they are just going developed.

    In the same moment, countermeasures for them are actually being introduced in service or they would be soon as developmental work is already close to conclusion.
    Armed UAVs and loitering munitions have showed to be effective because they take advantage of gaps into actual radar and AD weapons coverage but, as already said, other systems and even radar modes that would specifically deal with them are ready: they just need to be produced and distributed to troops and allies.

    So, I will repeat what I wrote in my latest post on this same thread: it's S-350 (and Pantsir SM-1) time!

    dino00 and zepia like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30942
    Points : 31468
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:50 am

    Actually it might be a case of EMP pulse weapons... a 120mm mortar sized bomb should be big enough to get a 50m radius effective weapon to take out drones in large numbers.... they could have an excellent rate of fire and a barrage of 120mm mortar bombs would be relatively cheap and quick to launch to blunt an attack...

    The real irony is that the people suggesting these swarm attacks are doing so from a position of vulnerability from conventional cruise missiles and hypersonic missiles and even stealth aircraft attack.

    You would think that Azerbaijan was some sort of super power, but at the end of the day it is similar to the Egyptian fleet sinking an Israeli ship with an anti ship missile... it was a surprise... it was clever and it was effective... but it likely wont work again because counter measures can be applied.

    In the case of Russia they have plenty of countermeasures... if Kiev starts murdering ukrainians in the donbas area with a huge fleet of drones there are quite a few things they could do... including using artillery to destroy enemy positions they have been wanting an excuse to hit for some time... they have never really hit back at Kiev, so a few small groups of men with explosives and weapons could go in and take out some high officials in the Kiev hierarchy, and just let Kiev know what war feels like... it is one thing to inflict war on a distant province but when it comes to you where you live it becomes much more serious and real.

    There is no reason why the rebels couldn't use drones themselves... the Ukrainians are likely much worse off in regards ability to defend themselves.

    Plus it is a chance for the Russians to analyse further how enemies use drones and how to counter them and neutralise their effects.

    Worse case scenario they have hundreds of soldiers on the battlefield from behind cover they can volley fire at the drones so all the rounds they are firing land on enemy territory... so they can blame the drone operators for any deaths downrange.
    magnumcromagnon
    magnumcromagnon

    Posts : 7324
    Points : 7473
    Join date : 2013-12-05
    Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:00 am

    I consider Vann7, aka Chicken-Little, with his infinite schizophrenia  an endless source of comedic entertainment! Razz

    The reality is U.S./NATO SAMs perform far worse against drones. Iranian drones had to be within 20km to do this  Embarassed :
    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 EimzwBMXYAA8r78?format=jpg
    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 EiqzuGAXgAU_iy5?format=jpg

    Iran drones "walk" in the area of ​​responsibility of American air defense

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Bespilotniki-irana-gulyayut-v-zone-otvetstvennosti-amerikanskoi-pvo-msznpt3f-1586433061.t

    Iran received a full “picture” of the deployment of military equipment and missile defense / air defense systems at US bases located in the Middle East

    According to the information published on Twitter, the Iranian military using remote access learned how to crack the Patriot air defense and missile defense systems. To do this, reconnaissance drones were used, which broadcast radiation from electronic warfare systems, suppressing US radar stations.

    As evidence, Tehran published photographs showing how an Iranian UAV freely flies over the largest US military bases in neighboring Iraq and on the west coast of the Persian Gulf. At the same time, the Patriot air defense missile systems did not see him, although they were supposed to be detected when approaching a distance of 50 kilometers.

    The same situation was observed in the sky over Saudi Arabia, where Iranian drones removed everything that they wanted to see and at the same time were not detected by any air defense system.

    At the moment, it is not known how the Iranian military managed to achieve such success. However, according to experts, a significant role in this operation was played by the latest Russian electronic warfare systems delivered to Iran, which turned off the American air defense systems.

    https://vpk.name/news/392006_bespilotniki_irana_gulyayut_v_zone_otvetstvennosti_amerikanskoi_pvo.html

    Compare and contrast:

    1.) Syrian and NK forces struggled against drones while greatly deprived of resources with a shoe-string budget

    2.) US and Saudi forces struggled against drones with no end to their resources and with huge over-inflated budgets.

    Now let's use some context, and judge their performances now?

    dino00, thegopnik and Hole like this post

    thegopnik
    thegopnik

    Posts : 527
    Points : 533
    Join date : 2017-09-20

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  thegopnik Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:35 pm

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&pto=aue&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://naukatehnika.com/ilon-mask-o-dvigatelyax-sssr.html&usg=ALkJrhgEs8-XBBNS547h2vLrbYusPutJqw

    Elon Musk, founder of SpaceX, tweeted commenting on Dodd's post: “Damn, this isn't easy! I've been looking at Russian / Ukrainian engines for quite some time. They are good"

    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 1220
    Points : 1254
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  mnztr Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    The Japanese didn't have the time or the ammo or the capacity to kill 20 million Chinese between 1939 and 1945... that is just bullshit.... western propaganda bullshit.

    Moving to  talking bollocks thread....

    Who needs ammo or time, you just destroy food and people will starve. over 4m died in Indonesia alone!!!

    PapaDragon likes this post

    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 447
    Points : 538
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:03 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    The Japanese didn't have the time or the ammo or the capacity to kill 20 million Chinese between 1939 and 1945... that is just bullshit.... western propaganda bullshit.

    Moving to  talking bollocks thread....

    Who needs ammo or time, you just destroy food and people will starve. over 4m died in Indonesia alone!!!



    According to Wikipedia the number of all deaths from the Dutch East Indies during the Second World War was between 3 and 4 million, so your "over four million starved to death" is clearly an exaggeration.

    Also, keep in mind that the Dutch East Indies (or the present-day Indonesia) had a population at that time of nearly 70 million.

    Looks like the Japanese did a very poor job of mass killing the Indonesians during WWII.


    Get all your fact correct next time.


    https://dutcheastindies.webs.com/


    avatar
    mnztr

    Posts : 1220
    Points : 1254
    Join date : 2018-01-21

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  mnztr Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:09 pm

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    The Japanese didn't have the time or the ammo or the capacity to kill 20 million Chinese between 1939 and 1945... that is just bullshit.... western propaganda bullshit.

    Moving to  talking bollocks thread....

    Who needs ammo or time, you just destroy food and people will starve. over 4m died in Indonesia alone!!!



    According to Wikipedia the number of all deaths from the Dutch East Indies during the Second World War was between 3 and 4 million, so your "over four million starved to death" is clearly an exaggeration.

    Also, keep in mind that the Dutch East Indies (or the present-day Indonesia) had a population at that time of nearly 70 million.

    Looks like the Japanese did a very poor job of mass killing the Indonesians during WWII.


    Get all your fact correct next time.


    https://dutcheastindies.webs.com/



    "Between 200,000 and half a million were sent away from Java to the outer islands, and as far as Burma and Siam. of those taken off Java, not more than 70,000 were found alive at the end of the war.[2][3] Four million people died in the Dutch East Indies as a result of famine and forced labour during the Japanese occupation, including 30,000 European civilian internee deaths.[4]"

    How is that exaggeration? I did not say all of them starved to death, just the bulk....

    kvs and PapaDragon like this post

    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 447
    Points : 538
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:16 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:...the Americans and British blockade the Japanese and force her to expand...

    Ah yes of course, it was American and British who forced Japanese to kill 20 million Chinese

    It makes perfect sense Razz



    No, it was 10 million Chinese killed in WWII, at least according to the sources listed on this page:

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-losses.html

    One source had it as low as seven million killed.


    On per capita basis the Chinese fared much better than Poland, Yugoslavia, and Soviet Union.

    China at that time had hundreds of millions of inhabitants.




    kvs
    kvs

    Posts : 10832
    Points : 10977
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Canuckistan

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  kvs Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:42 pm

    The west can do no wrong retroactively. So Japan being part of the western camp makes it squeaky clean. Germany would
    be coddled this way as well if it was not for the Holocaust. Some people are more special than others. That is what Trotskyists
    push routinely.

    GarryB and PapaDragon like this post

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2610
    Points : 2594
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:32 am

    Japan did kill around 20M Chinese....thats not even counting the other races.

    Japan only killed around 4M Chinese soldiers, the rest were civies.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2610
    Points : 2594
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 12:39 am

    GarryB wrote:

    The Japanese didn't have the time or the ammo or the capacity to kill 20 million Chinese between 1939 and 1945... that is just bullshit.... western propaganda bullshit.

    Moving to  talking bollocks thread....

    Are you really that stupid....? Do you know there are hundreds of ways to kill people right beside a bullet, I can't even begin to comprehend how you could say such a stupid thing scratch

    You clearly do not know the history or what actually happened..its sad you have the internet and can look this all up but instead you choose to say "Western propaganda".

    The Germans killed over 20M soviets in less than two years while killing 11M Jews in four years but the Japanese in eight couldn't kill 20M.......for fucks sake. You didn't even get the date RIGHT the Second Sino-Japanese War started in July of 1937 not 39.....  lol!

    Japan did kill 20M Chinese, trying to say the West is claiming this is frankly a real Class A POS move on your part Garry. Your profound ignorance never fails to amaze me.

    Edit: Something I must correct, It was six million jews but the extra five million is made of other races within the German borders at that time they considered undesirable.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:30 am; edited 1 time in total
    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 447
    Points : 538
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:04 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Japan did kill around 20M Chinese....thats not even counting the other races.

    Japan only killed around 4M Chinese soldiers, the rest were civies.



    The "20 million killed in China during WWII" has been claimed only rather recently by the Chinese government.



    All the sources used for this page gave around 10 million Chinese killed, and the one exception put the number even lower at seven or eight million killed.

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-losses.html

    I think the range from my sources is something like 7-11 million killed in China during 1931-1945.

    Perhaps you want to argue with the authors of the books in question?

    I only used them as sources, these are not my numbers.


    Also, China at that time had a population of hundreds of millions. They were not that badly hit on a per capita basis.


    These numbers are for all the nationalities living in China, so stop falsely claiming that this is only for the ethnic Chinese.



    JohninMK
    JohninMK

    Posts : 9362
    Points : 9469
    Join date : 2015-06-16
    Location : England

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  JohninMK Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:12 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    The Germans killed over 20M soviets in less than two years while killing 11M Jews in four years .......for fucks sake.  

    ............................Garry. Your profound ignorance never fails to amaze me.

    Not commenting on the others but a simple search threw this up

    In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them – 9.5 million, or 57% – lived in Europe, according to Della Pergola’s (of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem) estimates. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the world’s 11 million Jews. About 6 million European Jews were killed during the Holocaust, according to common estimates.

    Stones and glasshouses springs to mind.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2610
    Points : 2594
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:23 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    The Germans killed over 20M soviets in less than two years while killing 11M Jews in four years .......for fucks sake.  

    ............................Garry. Your profound ignorance never fails to amaze me.

    Not commenting on the others but a simple search threw this up

    In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them – 9.5 million, or 57% – lived in Europe, according to Della Pergola’s (of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem) estimates. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the world’s 11 million Jews. About 6 million European Jews were killed during the Holocaust, according to common estimates.

    Stones and glasshouses springs to mind.


    Ah right, around 6M jews died from the Nazi's in WW2, the extra five came from people like gays, Jepsies etc basically undesirables. My number was right I just mixed up the composition.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2610
    Points : 2594
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:26 am

    @Odin

    Your link is so wrong...way more than 20M soviets died in WW2. Putin himself said this, well over 40M soviets died in ww2. I believe it was 27M Soviet Civilians alone that died give or take a few Million.

    Don't post such inaccurate numbers.

    All officials sources from China, Russia, Japan etc put the number at 20M.
    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 447
    Points : 538
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:33 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:@Odin

    Your link is so wrong...way more than 20M soviets died in WW2. Putin himself said this, well over 40M soviets died in ww2.

    Don't post such inaccurate numbers.



    That number is from a book published in the Soviet Bloc Poland.

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-losses.html


    Soviets originally claimed 20.3 million killed in WWII from the Soviet Union, but in the recent years that number has been increased to 26.6 million. The claim about "Putin estimating 40 million Soviets killed in WWII" where did you get it from?

    Can you post your sources? I have posted my sources in the link above.


    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 447
    Points : 538
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:46 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    The Germans killed over 20M soviets in less than two years while killing 11M Jews in four years .......for fucks sake.  

    ............................Garry. Your profound ignorance never fails to amaze me.

    Not commenting on the others but a simple search threw this up

    In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them – 9.5 million, or 57% – lived in Europe, according to Della Pergola’s (of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem) estimates. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the world’s 11 million Jews. About 6 million European Jews were killed during the Holocaust, according to common estimates.

    Stones and glasshouses springs to mind.


    Ah right, around 6M jews died from the Nazi's in WW2, the extra five came from people like gays, Jepsies etc basically undesirables. My number was right I just mixed up the composition.




    The "11 million" claim is extremely suspect.

    Using the numbers on my page - http://michalw.narod.ru/index-losses.html - we get:


    20.3 million Soviets killed and most of these were civilians and murdered POWs, and that alone gives us at least around 11-15 million civilians and POWs killed plus 6 million dead from Poland (almost all of them civilians) plus over a million dead from Yugoslavia plus hundreds of thousands killed in Greece, plus all the other countries.


    The real number of civilians and prisoners-of-war (POWs) murdered by the Germans is over 20 million.


    And that is using the older and lower estimate of the Soviets killed in the Second World War.






    Last edited by Odin of Ossetia on Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2610
    Points : 2594
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:56 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:@Odin

    Your link is so wrong...way more than 20M soviets died in WW2. Putin himself said this, well over 40M soviets died in ww2.

    Don't post such inaccurate numbers.



    That number is from a book published in the Soviet Bloc Poland.

    http://michalw.narod.ru/index-losses.html


    Soviets originally claimed 20.3 million killed in WWII from the Soviet Union, but in the recent years that number has been increased to 26.6 million. The claim about "Putin estimating 40 million Soviets killed in WWII" where did you get it from?

    Can you post your sources? I have posted my sources in the link above.





    That number comes from various Russian historians and Putin himself a few years ago said in a speech around 50M, I do not remember which one all I know is he said it after Russia was excluded from some WW2 European thing.

    Also no....your information is literally decades old.

    At first, Stalin claimed around 7M, then Gorby said it was around 27M.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:54 am; edited 2 times in total
    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 447
    Points : 538
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:01 am




    Again, you give zero sources.

    I am getting tired of it.


    Never heard about the "Stalin claimed only seven million", from what I know the Soviets always claimed it at around 20 million. Possibly he was talking about only the military fatalities?


    The Polish book I used for the source gave 20.3 million Soviets killed.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2610
    Points : 2594
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:04 am

    .....Odin You got some real crappy sources, the 11M doesn't include any soviets that number is for people the Germans killed within their own borders and from nations they annexed in ww2.

    Your page is wrong, get accurate information.

    In 2017 the Russian historian Igor Ivlev put Soviet war dead at 42 million people (19.4 million military and 22.6 million civilians). According to Ivlev, Soviet State Planning Committee documents put the Soviet population at 205 million in June 1941 and 169.8 million for June 1945. Taking into account the 17.6 million births and 10.3 million natural deaths, leaving almost 42 million in war-related losses according to his research. The details of Ivlev's calculations were first announced at a parliamentary readings about the number of losses of the USSR during the Great Patriotic War. Ivlev's figures are endorsed by the Russian civic organization Immortal Regiment and have been discussed in the Russian media recently. Ivlev has published a summary of his arguments on the Russian website Demoscope Weekly. According to Ivlev's calculations based on the number of Soviet Communist party and Komsomol members conscripted, military dead and missing were 17.8 million.


    Boris Sokolov – In 1996 Sokolov published a study that estimated total war dead at 43.3 million including 26.4 million in the military. Sokolov's calculations claimed that official population figures in 1941 were understated by 12.7 million and the population in 1946 overstated by 4.0 million, yielding 16.7 million additional war dead, bringing the total to 43.3 million.

    V. E. Korol estimated overall Soviet war dead at 46 million including military dead of 23 million. He claimed that the official figure of 8.7 million military dead was "groundless", based on battle accounts from across the Eastern Front. Korol held that the official figures of Krivosheev were an attempt to cover up the disregard for human life by the military leaders under Stalin. Korol cited Soviet authors writing during the Glasnost era that put wartime losses much higher than the official figures; In 1990 General I. A. Gerasimov published information from the Russian Military Archives database that put losses at 16.2 million enlisted men and 1.2 million officers. Korol also cited historian-archivist Iu. Geller who put losses at 46 million, including military dead of 23 million and A.N. Mertsalov's estimate of 14 million military dead based on documents in the Russian Military Archives.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2610
    Points : 2594
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:18 am

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:


    Again, you give zero sources.

    I am getting tired of it.


    Never heard about the "Stalin claimed only seven million", from what I know the Soviets always claimed it at around 20 million. Possibly he was talking about only the military fatalities?


    The Polish book I used for the source gave 20.3 million Soviets killed.

    and AGAIN your BOOK IS WRONG.

    The USSR claimed after the war they lost 7M in total, Stalin said in march of 46. By total I mean he said it was both military and civilian we know now he was lying of course and that's the point of my statement. Gorby then came out and said that 7M number was a lie and said it was 27M.

    http://sovietinfo.tripod.com/ELM-War_Deaths.pdf
    Odin of Ossetia
    Odin of Ossetia

    Posts : 447
    Points : 538
    Join date : 2015-07-03

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Odin of Ossetia Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:31 am






    Then I suggest you start working as an editor for Wikipedia, as the number of the Soviet WWII killed they give is 20-27 million, and that includes the annexed territories, which is in line with the numbers I have posted above.

    Here is the link:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties


    I suggest you start editing soon, and we will see how much your "sources" are appreciated at the Wikipedia.


    Your numbers for Soviet Union sound impossibly huge. I am very curious why they have not made any use of the "researchers" you wrote about.

    I think it is possible that you are here mixing up fatalities with casualties, and the two are not one and the same.

    Over 40 million Soviet casualties makes sense, but not 40 million fatalities.

    In the Russian language the word potieri (?) could be translated as "losses" or "fatalities" or "casualties."

    We have a possible incorrect translation here. If it is casualties then the numbers you posted would be in agreement with both Wikipedia and "my" numbers regarding the Soviet WWII fatalities.




    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2610
    Points : 2594
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:58 am

    None of what I mentioned is talking about injuries it is purely people killed during the war by the Germans.

    In Russia for example there is one man for every five or six women. Their current population is 145M that is lower then their population at the start of WW2 by A LOT, if you do some Math with the data given. Between 40-50M dead does make sense. Take the US for example in 1940 we had around 132M but now it's like 327M.

    That is how bad, their male population got hit
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 30942
    Points : 31468
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:30 am

    Are you really that stupid....? Do you know there are hundreds of ways to kill people right beside a bullet, I can't even begin to comprehend how you could say such a stupid thing scratch

    Confirmation that this is indeed the correct location for this "Discussion".

    You clearly do not know the history or what actually happened..its sad you have the internet and can look this all up but instead you choose to say "Western propaganda".

    The Germans killed over 20M soviets in less than two years while killing 11M Jews in four years but the Japanese in eight couldn't kill 20M.......for fucks sake. You didn't even get the date RIGHT the Second Sino-Japanese War started in July of 1937 not 39..... lol!

    Japan did kill 20M Chinese, trying to say the West is claiming this is frankly a real Class A POS move on your part Garry. Your profound ignorance never fails to amaze me.

    Edit: Something I must correct, It was six million jews but the extra five million is made of other races within the German borders at that time they considered undesirable.

    Germans killed 20M Soviets in less than 2 years... what were they doing the other years of the war?

    6 million jews killed is already an exaggeration by those who benefit from appearing to be the victim... now you are expanding it to 11 million... why not 60 million?

    I didn't say they can't kill 20 million Chinese... I am saying they didn't.

    Of the 6 million odd Soviet prisoners they took less than 1.5 million survived the war, makes you wonder... because most tallies show about 11 million soviet troops killed in combat on the eastern front, and the total including civilians is usually put at 27-30 million including civilians, but none of it really matters... if 6 million jews dead is supposed to make Germany the bad guy 30 million dead wont make Russia the good guy or the victim... some US guys broke fingernails porking British soldiers girlfriends and wives in London while the British soldiers were off fighting a war... they are the real victims of war...

    kvs likes this post


    Sponsored content

    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 18 Empty Re: Talking bollocks thread #3

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:26 pm