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    Talking bollocks thread #3

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:43 am

    The # of Soviet WWII dead will never be known. There were Ms of GULAG inmates, in reality slaves + exiled peoples, & many of them died in 1941-45 period. Were they counted as those who died naturally? What about partizans who were killed in combat or as POW, were they counted as civilians? Finally, those who got executed by mil. tribunals/court martials or who switched to the German side & got killed, how were they counted? What about those soldiers who escaped to the West in 1945 & never returned? To the USSR, they were also as good as dead.

    ..some US guys broke fingernails porking British soldiers girlfriends and wives in London..
    against what surface? what do they have to do while having sex? In any case, I thought a female body is softer than man's!
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:45 am

    SS is trying to hijack the discussion to push false narratives. The point is that Japan gets a total pass from the NATzO west
    about WWII. This includes its absurd revisionist "history" textbooks. But Russians are guilty for not totally demonizing the
    Soviet side during WWII. We even have Croatia posing as a WWII anti-Nazi fighter. The real history is that Croatia was
    a Nazi puppet state run by the genocidal Ustashe that killed about one million Serbs.

    NATzO cunts always bring up how Germans lost less men on the eastern front than the Soviets. This exemplifies their
    hatred for Russia since it is a distortion of the truth:

    1) They never count the Romanians, Hungarians, Italians and others who lost men fighting with the Germans on the eastern
    front.

    2) They never take into account that most German POWs (over 80%) of the USSR went home alive. By contrast
    3.3 million Soviet POWs died at the hands of the Nazis. So mass murder of Soviet POWs counts against the USSR
    and in favour of the Nazis.

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:49 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The # of Soviet WWII dead will never be known. There were Ms of GULAG inmates, in reality slaves + exiled peoples, & many of them died in 1941-45 period. Were they counted as those who died naturally? What about partizans who were killed in combat or as POW, were they counted as civilians? Finally, those who got executed by mil. tribunals/court martials or who switched to the German side & got killed, how were they counted? What about those soldiers who escaped to the West in 1945 & never returned? To the USSR, they were also as good as dead.

    ..some US guys broke fingernails porking British soldiers girlfriends and wives in London..
    against what surface? what do they have to do while having sex? In any case, I thought a female body is softer than man's!

    Your logic can be applied to the western states in WWII as well.

    The Soviets kept detailed records of gulag inmates and deaths. The peak death rate was 20% in 1942. This 20% is used
    by western liars to claim that every single year involved 20% dying. Which would mean that nobody every came out of the
    gulags alive except near the end. The real death toll in the gulags was about 800,000 with most being clustered near 1942
    and during the war. Unlike America, the USSR lost a lot of its farmland and the Nazis had effective intelligence on food depots
    which they bombed at the start of Barbarossa.

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:42 pm

    kvs wrote:SS is trying to hijack the discussion to push false narratives.   The point is that Japan gets a total pass from the NATzO west
    about WWII.   This includes its absurd revisionist "history" textbooks.   But Russians are guilty for not totally demonizing the
    Soviet side during WWII.   We even have Croatia posing as a WWII anti-Nazi fighter.   The real history is that Croatia was
    a Nazi puppet state run by the genocidal Ustashe that killed about one million Serbs.

    NATzO cunts always bring up how Germans lost less men on the eastern front than the Soviets.   This exemplifies their
    hatred for Russia since it is a distortion of the truth:

    1) They never count the Romanians, Hungarians, Italians and others who lost men fighting with the Germans on the eastern
    front.  

    2) They never take into account that most German POWs (over 80%) of the USSR went home alive.   By contrast
    3.3 million Soviet POWs died at the hands of the Nazis.   So mass murder of Soviet POWs counts against the USSR
    and in favour of the Nazis.



    Germany did lose fewer men then the Soviets in the war, the most basic of facts are lost to you aren't they
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:47 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Are you really that stupid....? Do you know there are hundreds of ways to kill people right beside a bullet, I can't even begin to comprehend how you could say such a stupid thing scratch

    Confirmation that this is indeed the correct location for this "Discussion".

    You clearly do not know the history or what actually happened..its sad you have the internet and can look this all up but instead you choose to say "Western propaganda".

    The Germans killed over 20M soviets in less than two years while killing 11M Jews in four years but the Japanese in eight couldn't kill 20M.......for fucks sake. You didn't even get the date RIGHT the Second Sino-Japanese War started in July of 1937 not 39.....  lol!

    Japan did kill 20M Chinese, trying to say the West is claiming this is frankly a real Class A POS move on your part Garry. Your profound ignorance never fails to amaze me.

    Edit: Something I must correct, It was six million jews but the extra five million is made of other races within the German borders at that time they considered undesirable.

    Germans killed 20M Soviets in less than 2 years... what were they doing the other years of the war?

    6 million jews killed is already an exaggeration by those who benefit from appearing to be the victim... now you are expanding it to 11 million... why not 60 million?

    I didn't say they can't kill 20 million Chinese... I am saying they didn't.

    Of the 6 million odd Soviet prisoners they took less than 1.5 million survived the war, makes you wonder... because most tallies show about 11 million soviet troops killed in combat on the eastern front, and the total including civilians is usually put at 27-30 million including civilians, but none of it really matters... if 6 million jews dead is supposed to make Germany the bad guy 30 million dead wont make Russia the good guy or the victim... some US guys broke fingernails porking British soldiers girlfriends and wives in London while the British soldiers were off fighting a war... they are the real victims of war...

    This has nothing to do with Russia being a good or bad guy.....Its complete garbage you would try and devalue millions of deaths for such a pathetic narrative. But you would go there, wouldn't you.

    6 million jews did die and so did 20M Chinese, trying to say "the west is claiming" this is nothing but crap, there is no discussion those are the numbers. There is hard evidence and facts to show that, to try and argue against shows how ignorant you are. You have access to the internet go do research.

    You are 100 percent wrong and I am not going to waste time arguing with you over basic information, if you wanna stick your head in the sand and cry feel free.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:51 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The # of Soviet WWII dead will never be known. There were Ms of GULAG inmates, in reality slaves + exiled peoples, & many of them died in 1941-45 period. Were they counted as those who died naturally? What about partizans who were killed in combat or as POW, were they counted as civilians? Finally, those who got executed by mil. tribunals/court martials or who switched to the German side & got killed, how were they counted? What about those soldiers who escaped to the West in 1945 & never returned? To the USSR, they were also as good as dead.

    ..some US guys broke fingernails porking British soldiers girlfriends and wives in London..
    against what surface? what do they have to do while having sex? In any case, I thought a female body is softer than man's!

    40m-50m dead is what people consider the true number, this number only takes into account who the germans killed civilians, military everything.

    While the exact number is impossible to know, an accurate estimate is easy to get, yes it might be off by a million or so.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:27 pm

    kvs wrote:
    2) They never take into account that most German POWs (over 80%) of the USSR went home alive.   By contrast
    3.3 million Soviet POWs died at the hands of the Nazis.   So mass murder of Soviet POWs counts against the USSR
    and in favour of the Nazis.
    Few mention the Western allies treatment of German PoWs after the war either. Several 100,000s were effectively slaves, those in the UK for over 2 years, whilst an estimated million died most in squalid conditions along the Rhine in the winter of 1945/46. Compare that to an estimated 95% of Western allies PoWs making it home from German camps.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:59 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    2) They never take into account that most German POWs (over 80%) of the USSR went home alive.   By contrast
    3.3 million Soviet POWs died at the hands of the Nazis.   So mass murder of Soviet POWs counts against the USSR
    and in favour of the Nazis.
    Few mention the Western allies treatment of German PoWs after the war either. Several 100,000s were effectively slaves, those in the UK for over 2 years, whilst an estimated million died most in squalid conditions along the Rhine in the winter of 1945/46. Compare that to an estimated 95% of Western allies PoWs making it home from German camps.

    Well, the Soviets weren't any better there.

    Considering what the Germans did, no one really felt like mercy was justified.

    You can argue this is wrong but the Soviets, nor the West felt being humane in the face of their crimes was necessary.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:24 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    2) They never take into account that most German POWs (over 80%) of the USSR went home alive.   By contrast
    3.3 million Soviet POWs died at the hands of the Nazis.   So mass murder of Soviet POWs counts against the USSR
    and in favour of the Nazis.
    Few mention the Western allies treatment of German PoWs after the war either. Several 100,000s were effectively slaves, those in the UK for over 2 years, whilst an estimated million died most in squalid conditions along the Rhine in the winter of 1945/46. Compare that to an estimated 95% of Western allies PoWs making it home from German camps.

    95% of what total ? West attacked a dead German military that was destroyed by USSR.

    Was there even 1000 of western PoW in German camps ? And which camp ?

    They landed in France and found a country almost empty of enemies since they were mostly in eastern front.
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    Post  Hole Thu Nov 19, 2020 8:58 pm

    Mostly shot down bomber crews.
    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:42 pm

    Isos wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Few mention the Western allies treatment of German PoWs after the war either. Several 100,000s were effectively slaves, those in the UK for over 2 years, whilst an estimated million died most in squalid conditions along the Rhine in the winter of 1945/46. Compare that to an estimated 95% of Western allies PoWs making it home from German camps.

    95% of what total ? West attacked a dead German military that was destroyed by USSR.

    Was there even 1000 of western PoW in German camps ? And which camp ?

    They landed in France and found a country almost empty of enemies since they were mostly in eastern front.

    How about 275,000 at the end of the war? Some had been there since Dunkirk. Prisoners were returned to Germany from all over Europe and North Africa as the Germans advanced or retreated. Most of those who died were among the 40,000 force marched west from Poland in the winter of 43/4 ahead of the Russian advance.

    There may have been many more German divisions in the East but they still had to fight their way across France and Belgium into Germany. I agree that the US in particular likes to claim that they won the war when it was the Russians who did the most work and suffered most but don't belittle our efforts like you have.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:29 pm

    Nobody is squeaky clean. No matter how much revisionist propaganda is spewed.

    But lines are being crossed with the level of revisionist BS. The whole USSR=Nazi Germany drivel and the laundering
    of Nazi allies as heroes of the fight against the ebil USSR. America is the primary source of this rot since it and
    the British recruited Nazis even before the end of WWII to continue the fight against the USSR. Hitler was a tool
    to take the USSR down and he failed. The puppet masters to this day think that they will succeed even though
    communism, the purported boogieman, is long gone.

    I knew one Ukr Nazi who was trained in British military camps to fight the USSR. I also knew another Ukr
    who was a member of the SS Halychina Division. Both were living comfortable lives in Canada before they
    passed away of old age. There were and still are thousands of such cases in the west including in the USA.
    The number of cases where any of them were prosecuted is a total joke and were token show trials to
    "prove" how the west cared about their crimes. No it didn't, it succored them as a resource against the
    USSR, forgiving all their sins.


    Isos
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    Post  Isos Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:32 pm

    How about 275,000 at the end of the war? Some had been there since Dunkirk

    Those were used for free labour force.

    If they were not needed they would have ended in the oven like the other. They didn't keep them alive because they were good people.

    I agree that the US in particular likes to claim that they won the war when it was the Russians who did the most work and suffered most but don't belittle our efforts like you have.

    I don't since for me they are non existant.

    Compare to the battles of WW1 and WW2 like Kursk where something like 5 million soldiers fought, the US-UK-French operation at the end is not even a battle.

    Real german soldiers were still in the east. What was left in France were some random dudes who didn't know how to fight and all they did was flee to Germany.

    Paris was liberated by french only which indicates that the city was empty lf germans.

    It's only propaganda that makes the west the winner like the film "furry" with Brad Pitt or the other one where a croup of jews soldiers kill Hitler. Total bullshit.

    If Germans had the soldier from the eastern front in France they would have destroy this landing in 24 hours.

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    Post  kvs Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:41 pm

    The second front faced soft German opposition with many German soldiers preferring to surrender (*).   By contrast, thanks to
    Nazi indoctrination they fought to the death on the eastern front.   That is a big difference in a war.   And also, Germany
    was stripping the big guns from pill boxes to use on the eastern front.   So when the second front landing hit the beaches
    they were not facing the destruction that would have been there if Germany was not sinking 80% of its resources (men
    and equipment) on the eastern front.

    But as has been posted a few times already, modern western citizens think that it was America and its western allies
    (primarily UK) that was facing 80% or more of Nazi resources.

    (*) This makes the large number of German POW numbers in western hands credible.
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:01 am

    Its me disliking your posts. Yes the Russians faced 80% of the German army but it is pure revisionism to claim that the German army in the west was inadequate or surrendered. It fought hard with great courage but had a real problem without much air cover. Their attack in the Ardennes might have succeeded but for the panic introduction of the highly secret UK/US secret weapon, the proximity fuse.

    A not insignificant number of the German PoWs were the soldiers fleeing as fast as they could westwards to avoid being captured by the Russians.
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:10 am

    No way Ardennes could have succeeded.

    Even if Germans drove all the way to the sea in 3 days with 3 to 1 casualty rate in favor of Germans, what would be next? You would end up with a thin strip of land with enemies on both sides. WAllies would still have 3:1 numerical advantage and nearly uncontested air superiority.

    Western Front was lost and would have been even if every German officer was a military genius.
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:17 am

    Walther von Oldenburg wrote:No way Ardennes could have succeeded.

    Even if Germans drove all the way to the sea in 3 days with 3 to 1 casualty rate in favor of Germans, what would be next? You would end up with a thin strip of land with enemies on both sides. WAllies would still have 3:1 numerical advantage and nearly uncontested air superiority.

    Western Front was lost and would have been even if every German officer was a military genius.

    I agree, I was trying to make the point that the Germans, although outnumbered still posed a threat the the forces of the Allies and were not surrendering left right and centre as claimed.
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    Post  kvs Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:30 am

    JohninMK wrote:Its me disliking your posts. Yes the Russians faced 80% of the German army but it is pure revisionism to claim that the German army in the west was inadequate or surrendered. It fought hard with great courage but had a real problem without much air cover. Their attack in the Ardennes might have succeeded but for the panic introduction of the highly secret UK/US secret weapon, the proximity fuse.

    A not insignificant number of the German PoWs were the soldiers fleeing as fast as they could westwards to avoid being captured by the Russians.

    I never claimed it surrendered.   You assertion that 20% = 80% is pure drivel. To claim that the second front had the same level
    of fighting intensity from the German forces as on the eastern front on a per soldier basis is ludicrous revisionism.

    This yet another reason that western masturbation about Soviet losses is grotesque. The west never had the resistance that
    the USSR did from the Germans. It also did not have the war crimes involving mass murder of civilians that occurred on Soviet
    soil. The SS rounded up Jews but did not burn any villages with the people in their houses like it did in the east.

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    Post  kvs Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:54 am

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_Soviet_Union

    The West German government set up a Commission headed by Erich Maschke to investigate the fate of German POWs in the war. In its report of 1974 they found that 3,060,000 German military personnel were taken prisoner by the USSR.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_northwest_Europe

    More than 2.8 million German soldiers surrendered on the Western Front between D-Day and the end of April 1945; 1.3 million between D-Day and March 31, 1945;[1] and 1.5 million of them in the month of April.[2] From early March, these surrenders seriously weakened the Wehrmacht in the West, and made further surrenders more likely, thus having a snowballing effect.

    So almost the same number of German soldiers surrendered during 11 months on the western front as were taken POW by the USSR
    from 1941 to 1945.   Anyone who claims that this is not a relevant fact is peddling revisionist fantasy fiction.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 20, 2020 7:53 am

    Those were used for free labour force.

    If they were not needed they would have ended in the oven like the other. They didn't keep them alive because they were good people.

    The German attitude to allied prisoners was very different... all prisoners worked but western allied prisoners were fed and treated using the rules of war... I suspect the Soviet soldiers who did survive got help from friendly prisoners... I doubt any Germans were nice to them.

    I agree, I was trying to make the point that the Germans, although outnumbered still posed a threat the the forces of the Allies and were not surrendering left right and centre as claimed.

    The Germans treated western allied forces as "european", their treatment of Soviet prisoners and soldiers was totally uncivilised.

    There were a lot of reports about German pilots asking the US and British forces overrunning their bases for fuel so they could go up and fight the Soviets together... they were surprised when they were put in POW camps...

    There are likely a few Brits and Americans who might think that was a good idea, but they were really not in any condition to fight the Soviets at that point in time...

    The conflict on the eastern front had degenerated into something rather brutal and different to what was happening in the west.

    Not to say that it was not a real war, or that the Germans didn't fight on the west, but they didn't have fuel for their aircraft and they didn't have the troop numbers or quality of troops to stop the western allies.

    But if you read popular western accounts.... lend lease, D Day, and winter is what defeated the Germans in Europe.

    Nothing has changed really... one more set of sanctions and Putin will do as we tell him and conform to what we want internationally...
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    Post  kvs Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:22 pm

    I should add to the clear accelerating mass surrender dynamic on the western front this comparison.  Averaging
    the 3 million taken prisoner on the eastern front one gets about 1.5 million per year (when it counted not in 1941 and
    even 1942).   Considering that Germany had 4 times more soldiers resources sunk on the eastern front compared to the
    western front, this means that the surrender rate on the western front was  [2.8/(0.2X)]/[1.5/(0.8X)] or about 7.5
    times greater than on the eastern front.

    There was no snowballing effect of German surrenders on the eastern front and they fought tooth and nail all the way
    back to Berlin.   The only reason that the the "western allies" got to Berlin at roughly the same time as the Soviets was
    because they were facing progressively weaker German resistance and never faced the full intensity that the Soviets
    faced.  

    The UK loves its revisionist WWII stories about how the Battle of Britain turned the tide of the war and how the North
    Africa campaign really did a number on the Nazis.   Both were side shows compared to the eastern front.  Full stop.
    The only time that the role of the "western allies" mattered was when the second front was opened and that was
    when Nazi German was already certain to lose the war even without this front.   If westerners want their roles to
    be appreciated, then stop denigrating and fobbing off the role of the USSR.
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    Post  Vann7 Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:19 am

    kvs wrote:Regarding Bidet and Nord Stream II, it is time for Russia to stop coddling it's western "partners" and leverage cold hard reality to the max.

    1) The USA does not even have 50 bcm/year of total gas export capacity.   It imports about 80 bcm/year from Canada.  
    So yanqui LNG is actually Qatari LNG.   Russian gas exports to the EU are over 150 bcm/year.

    2) Russia can gain vastly from transitioning to LNG exports instead of piped gas.   Pipelines are expensive and they
    bind Russia to long term contracts and expose it to blackmail from its "customers".   We see this 24/7 from EU-tards
    and NATzO.   Russia can generate LNG with cheap nuclear power which it can deploy (do not use nuclear power
    costs in NATzO for reference, they are absurd corrupt nonsense).   So Russia can charge LNG rates for LNG that
    does not consume 30% of the export volume to create.   Qatar and nobody else will be able to beat this.   Finally,
    and best of all, Russia can sell its LNG to the highest bidder around the world.   No more deals for enemy "customers".
    Take it or leave it and life sucks for losers.



    And the economic tards in this forum still believe that Russia economy have any future as an
    energy exporter. lol1

    A basic rule those wheel chair "Economic experts" don't understand , is that you can't run your
    nation economy in the same way , that you do it in times of true peace ,versus time of war.
    People that completely ignores how dramatically different the economy needs to be run in times
    of war , don't deserve to even make any comments in the economic forums ever.
    And Russia is a country facing war , is a real war ,with people ,russian soldiers kileld , military planes shot down and russian military bases attacked.. this is as war as it can be..but that is done
    in such a slow and indirect way with their military while at same time very directly through sanctions and industrial sabotage and this is what is called in the media "a cold war" , but is much more than what soviet union had to face in the past through 99% the cold war lasted.. only exception was the cuban missile crisis ,but that was only 2 weeks of hell on earth for russian general planners and not more.

    When a country leadership ignores the basics of how war can be taken to the economic front by an enemy nation , and fails to develop an economy system ,that will be effective during this war waged on them . Then that country leadership , without knowing it , perhaps by massive ignorance ,becomes an easy target for their enemies to hit and damage and weaken.

    Take for example Venezuela..
    1)Who in their right mind though it was a good idea , to develop venezuela as a oil station of the world , while at the same time going /rebelling against the American system and the american empire? the chavism movement ,Maduro and chavez ,commited that catastrophic mistake ,that by
    making their economy so dependant of oil exports and to make things worse ,the top buyer of those
    was noneless than US . that is the same enemies seeking to destroy Venezuela neutral system and turn it into another Poland/baltic puppet state . Not only did chavez and maduro ,made the mistake
    of relying most of the economy in oil exports To US , the state of texas was the #1 buyer of venezuelan oil in the world.. but to make even more insulting to the human logic... the advanced machines that venezuela used to drill in the soil and to refine their crude to produce gasoline ,was also american made. Laughing So effectively the venezuela government ignorance of their major economy flaws ,cost them a major fortune , and if it wasn't by the free money , free loans and limited help that they got from Russia and china and india , then Venezuela will have collapsed like
    soviet union did it ,or perhaps lybia.. and the country divided in parts in a major civil war for food and jobs.

    2) The same is being done by putin in russia.
    If it wasn't insane enough this bad moves of venezuela on their economic development model ,
    The master in incompetence of Putin's government, have done exactly the same mistakes of maduro and chaves ,but taken to a whole new level ,in a most embarrassing way.

    Because since Putin came to power ,all his economic center model ,have been based , (just like venezuela) on creating a monopoly in oil and gas , and transforming their country into a gas station of euroAsia. And this is a catastropic mistake for the reasons that americans can very easily take down oil and gas prices in coordination with Qatar and saudi arabia. Even if it hurts their own american energy business ,will not matter ,because in the end , it damage Russia far more.. because only about 7% of the american economy comes from energy sales.. While Russia economy ,according to its own minister of economy ,most of russia economy (60% to 70% is dependent on energy extraction and Processing and distribution and services to that energy . Gazprom and the gas stations and pipelines in direct and indirect jobs , security services and others , produce the biggest chuck of russia economy and the biggest budget chunk of russia comes from its energy industry.

    So what major mistakes Putin did ?
    That he developed an economy model in Russia ,based around a market ,(the european union) that
    Americans are the biggest influence of them and in many cases fully controls countries there.

    So what are Putin's economic "master moves" in the 20 years he is in power.
    1) He triple down in transforming Russia into a gas and oil station of the world and began to invest
    hundred of billions of dollars $ USD , in building pipelines ,and maintainance. this is what russia debt is most about, is energy pipelines debt.
    2) He triple down in agriculture since 2014 sanctions over ukraine . So under putin own words
    he wanted Russia to become the world largest healthy food exporter. The problem with this
    is that this is a market extremely saturated already ,and can be very easily [check mated] by
    americans.. they now are investing heavily in Ukraine economy as a wheat exporter.. why wheat?
    to counter Putin heavy investments in the lazy ass fat ,super easy agriculture industry . so in essence
    if Putin says ,"we will now sell wheat.. "to counter" western economic sanctions pressure..then what american do ? hey lets invest in wheat business and help all those soviet states to produce their own wheat and not depend either from russia agriculture. and so effectively ukraine is now the major competitor of Putin's Russia and his dreams of transforming Russia in a banana agriculture super power , also helping ukraine and belarus in dairies ,because guess what? this is exactly what putin is doing to compete with putin business, americans will counter it always with a similar bussiness right at their borders. Wink

    This means , that in war times ,you can't develop an effective economy ,if you don't
    take into account what are your enemies doing to harm you more and piss on you.
    So effectively Americans not only competes with russia in military and space and surpass it in many ways ,but in russian civilian business too , (to offer an alternative and isolate russia economy more)
    and this is the biggest fucking problem Russia face under putin administration that is...

    That americans hit in the balls Russia with their military and with their business and with their politics
    too with sanctions.. and that Russia under putin don't fucking fight back.. and just continue ignoring
    them. Because Americans heavily a lot of money in countering Russia most important civilian business for the nation budget.. (this is what economic war is about.) to limit or completely outclass your enemies business ,so it harms your nation budget and economy. And putin does not fight back
    at americans by fighting back those business that helps more the american economy industry.. which is high tech industry and entertainment industry , this are the pillars of american soft power influence in the world.. this is what makes the Russia culture to only end at russian borders.. while the american culture is global.. and it have to be really shameful that a nation like china ,who came from behind 20 years ago and was far outdated than russia in all areas ,because far more advanced in civilian business than russia to the point to become the True and only real threat that exist in the world to the American empire..

    all things said.. is not about making more money ,selling more oil or more bananas, how Russia stop the west plans in motion to destroy russia. instead is all about Leadership.. and about leading the world with your business ,and become an alternative to the American-asian high tech business world, and the only way you can truly damage the american empire without a world war 3, is by creating an true alternative to the american high tech business world. One that is very comparable if not superior. Because is only when Russia manage one day to dethrone the influence of american high tech and digital entertainment business in the world and offer a true alternative ,is only then ,when
    NATO will be disbanded ,because more and more nations in europe will want to abandon the american business if the russian ones are equal or even better.. So US influence will decay , NATO will disband and this will force americans to reconsider their war on russia and see that if they continue their war on russia ,they risk collapsing and isolating themselves from the world and so they will understand that their world empire project is impossible to achieve and so they will negotiate with Russia to end all their hostilities and sanctions and negotiate a new world order . in other words
    a world of peaceful cohexistance of both nations and this is when the wars will stop and nuclear treaties restored if not completely removed ,when US and Russia becomes allies.. that is.. and terrorism and countries that sponsor it ,stopped.

    The only way for Russia to save its country ..
    1)is either become a colony of europe and help them create a new system .
    2) or become a puppet of china ,and help china to speed its new system and create a new world system.
    3)or else ,that russia for the first time stop being a follower and becomes the leader of the world.
    That Russia leads the world in high tech ,space explorations and digital/entertainment industry ,which will allow the creation of a true alternative to the american system and the end of NATO too.
    and as a bonus avoid a world war 3 scenario with nuclear weapons. This means the complete reverse of all Putin economic development of Russia. instead of monkey medals in meaningless
    olympics , the medals that russia needs to win are space exploration medals, and instead of sports
    and tourism ,which are obsolete today more than ever after covid19 western planndemic , is education and science what putin needs to promote and not sports. Is more engineers and more scientist what russia need and not more khabiv wrestlers winning medals , helping muslims in the caucasus to help islam to become more popular in Russia. Rolling Eyes

    My best hopes for a change in Russia ,is that europe finally give up to US pressure ,and cancel
    northstream 2 , this is the only thing that will help Putin see ,albeit too late ,how disastrous
    was his economic model system ,he developed in the last 20 years..

    because he will have to recognize that americans outsmarted him.. by defeating.
    1)the future of Russia energy industry
    2)defeating putin's dreams of making russia the capital of sports.. No
    3)defeating putin's dreams of turning russia into the #1 tourist destination in the world.
    4)defeating putin's dreams of turning russia into the world biggest food exporter.
    5)and if all that was not bad enough ,even russia defense military industry suffering major
    losses in sales by how outsmarted Russia military was their poor performance in the armenian conflict ,that armenia and putin's best defenses defeated by cheap drones.

    How much you can fail in 20 years..? the only thing worse for putin could be a lost of the russian military in crimea and syria ,after first securing it. Means putin will have to go back to the drawing
    board and completely reverse his entire economic strategy ,and start the process of transforming
    russia into a true competition and true independence of the west.


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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:06 am


    Looks like Vann overdosed on stool softener again and we are witnessing the fruits of his arrogance right before our eyes lol1

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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 29, 2020 11:02 am

    It is either one or the other... Russia is the most powerful threat in the universe that needs to be dealt with, or Russia is on the verge of collapse and is a gas station pretending to be a country that doesn't produce anything.

    As long as Putin is the devil himself I know Russia and Putin are doing well...

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    Post  Vann7 Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:05 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:I consider Vann7, aka Chicken-Little, with his infinite schizophrenia  an endless source of comedic entertainment! Razz

    The reality is U.S./NATO SAMs perform far worse against drones. Iranian drones had to be within 20km to do this  Embarassed :


    Compare and contrast:

    1.) Syrian and NK forces struggled against drones while greatly deprived of resources with a shoe-string budget

    2.) US and Saudi forces struggled against drones with no end to their resources and with huge over-inflated budgets.

    Now let's use some context, and judge their performances now?


    1) Syria had everything from Russia and the best electronic warfare on earth according to Russia
    and still fails miserably to stop israel few missiles attacks every week. more than 2,000 thousands of
    effective strikes have done israel on syria on the nose of putin. So don't make bullshit excuses for Russian military about syrian budget..Russia have provided syria with enough air defenses there to shot down a hundred of planes. yet they can't handle a dozen of missile attacks of israel in syria without half of them penetrating their air defeneses.

    and in the nagorno karabah war...Russia provided also everything armenia did to defend itself..
    and the performance of russia air defenses in defending not only NK but also armenia itself. .was
    a disaster.. the ignorants talks about how "amernia was defeated" , yet the real defeat happened
    in the skies ,to the russian air defenses.. because the armenians did outscored azerbaijan in ground
    fighting when there was no drones present.. but as soon turkey get rid in the first week of vast majority of the air defenses of armenia ,that the russian incompetent military setup for them..
    it was shooting gallery for turkey drones on armenian and nagorno troops..  i posted even a video before how the very latest TOR system of defense.. was completely destroyed and their operators..
    Russian officers.. killed by turkey drones and all filmed on camera.. that was the most humiliating thing of all. .

    so the biggest loser was not armenia in the nagorno war.. the real biggest loser here was the image
    of the Russian military ,was put to complete shame ,by the turkey and israel drones.. they even shot down a russian helicopter that was not even part of the conflict... with a shitty man pad.. so what is the fucking excuse now ,that russian military helicopter can't defend against manpads?  didn't russia
    had electronic protection against those?  No  

    and in syria Russia top spy plane was shotdown and that wasn't done by mistake as putin the chicken claimed.. it was provoed intentionally shot down by israel.. most likely a happy trigger pilot ,but the official story was that israel "hide behind the russian plane" , something denied by syrian military who operated their s-200s. So in the end the incompetent president putin and his selected incompetent military to have been struggling very seriously in syria to defend their airspace , and this is not against swarm of thousands of drones or not even a hundred.. the russian military have failed miserably consistently to help syria protect their airspace for the past 5 fucking years.. because those israel missiles strikes always enter , about half of them..  and hit their intended targets.. so it means
    that just like i was warning Russian for many years ,in this very same s-400 thread.. that the military trainning and tactics are completely obsolete for modern wars.. and the nagorno karabah conflict fully confirmed that.  in the most brutal and painful way possible.. those soldiers operating TOR that turkey destroyed were 100% Russian officers of the russian military.. and they were sent to their death by the incompetence of the russian military ,thinking their air defenses are incapable to handle swarm of modern drones that was likely operated by turkish experienced staff .

    So i have bad news for you , Russia was the big loser in the armenian war.. their military was
    the laughing stock of the world there ,by the pro turkish factions and the muslim in the world backing them.  because armenia only lost a small tiny piece of land.. but Russia military if it had any remaining dignity left , they will recognize that their military hardware and tactics versus NATO was totally outdated.  Hopefully MR GaryB will recognize the day , i came to this forum years ago to question Russia S-400s and s-300s versus NATO airforce capabilities, because all those trainning exercises i always see of russian military are always the same.. they shot down a few fake targets ,planes very high altitude in the air.. and thats it , that's their trainning.. and i warned about it many years ago..  that Russia will not have a way to secure its airspace unless it develop air defenses that can defeat swarm of drones . i used to think ,that russia electronic warfare was good enough for that..to fix the holes of s-300 and s-400 when countering major missiles or drones attacks, but the nagorno war proved me wrong , they lost s-300s ,patsirs ,tors and even iskanders too..  according to azerbaijan and they show videos of their destruction and russia not even debate this claims.

    2)when it comes to the "iranian attack" on saudi oil fields.. this was an inside job ,done by saudis
    to justify a war against iran.. a bait that saudis launch to see if americans will bomb iran.

    ------------------------------------
    and...

    3) when it comes to american air defenses of their warships ,versus iranian drones in hormus strech
     this is a totally pointless comparison ,because US navy have to travel over a very small water passway that is 10km of distance of iranian borders.. so iran by flying over its own airspace ,can take pictures anyway of those warships that close.. so this proof nothing of iranian capabilities with drones.. iran capabilities are way outdated in drones..   russian drones program is a million times superior than the iranian one.. and probably russian long range attack drones in terms of technology are ahead already of the american ones.. and this is probably the only positive thing to say about
    the russian airforce today.. when it comes to drones.. that is moving in the right direction and doing significant progress ,albeit at a very slow rate and it remains in question if russia can afford to mass produce them in meaningful numbers.

    4)when it comes to the iranian attack with drones on saudi arabia refineries , this was all an inside job operation. that saudis did ,to encourage trump to start a war against iran..  still when it comes
    to air defenses.. the russian ones as outdated they are ,to handle drones ,can end being a bit better than the american patriots defenses.  

    So whats the problem for russia then ,if russian air defenses like s-400s and s-300s and pantsirs
    are still a bit better ,than the american patriots ones?

    The huge problem problem is that ..
    1) americans don't need air defenses at all.. is an offensive military.. and it don't have enemies on their borders.. other than alaska. and also contrary to russia.. the US military knows very well ,putin is weak ,a chicken and will not dare ever to attack americans first.. in case of any war. this is completely different to US that have attacked russian bases many times and shot down russian planes many times and putin do nothing about it.. since he have no way to proof who did it..

    if for example turkey ever dares to use their drones ,in an unprovoked attack ,against any american base.. killing american soldiers ,they know they will be totally destroyed. That americans will not blink an eye to launch hundreds of cruise missiles attacks on turkey cities ,including targeting civilians. there is no politeness and putin weakness in the american side.. the bullshit is only in the putin side.

    last when it comes to the iranian attack on iraqui bases is a different thing.. they provoked iran into
    a fight and they responded.. and their damages were pretty irrelevant for US operations there. what holds US from bombing iran , is more than iran can close the hormus strait and block world economy
    for weeks or months and even when they clear it from iranian navy , iran can very easily mine it forever and make it dangerous for traffic. So is kind of similar of russia problem with turkey bosphurus strait.. the only way to keep open the strait is if russia start using nukes on turkey ,after they close it  and americans nuke iran.. and they will not want to go there unless is fully supported by their population ,that is a nuclear war.

    in more news. a new report shows the incompetence of russia air defenses in
    the nagorno war.


    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 19 5e07360785f5407be76fe514

    Scott Ritter
    is a former US Marine Corps intelligence officer and author of 'SCORPION KING: America's Suicidal Embrace of Nuclear Weapons from FDR to Trump.' He served in the Soviet Union as an inspector implementing the INF Treaty, in General Schwarzkopf’s staff during the Gulf War, and from 1991-1998 as a UN weapons inspector. Follow him on Twitter @RealScottRitter


    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 19 5fc0fefe85f5403e0a59bf0e

     https://www.rt.com/op-ed/508000-turkey-drone-swarms-war/



    One of the main lessons drawn from the Turkish drone experiences in Syria, Libya and Nagorno-Karabakh is that these conflicts were not fought against so-called “poor countries.”

    Rather, the Turks were facing off against well-equipped and well-trained forces operating equipment which closely parallels that found in most small- and medium-sized European countries. Indeed, in all three conflicts, Turkey was facing off against some of the best anti-aircraft missile defenses produced by Russia. The reality is that most nations, if confronted by a Turkish “drone swarm,” would not fare well.


    Russia military needs to go back to the drawing board.. rocket interception is outdated , they need
    something much more massive to handle waves of drones or missiles.. the return of anti air artillery ,this time armed with longer range cannons and computer /radar guided in automatic mode. they also need laser defenses mounted on trucks.. to stop drones.. there is a lot of work ,those s-400s and s-300s are outdated for real war scenarios versus heavily armed modern nations with swarm of drones.

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