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    Talking bollocks thread #3

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:06 am

    You're a retard.

    The opposition is the problem and neo liberalism isn't like it's something inevitable. It's a plague. And no, United Russia isn't going anywhere. And neo liberalism will thankfully be prevented thanks to constitutional change.

    Dumbass.
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    Post  flamming_python Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:41 am

    miketheterrible wrote:You're a retard.

    The opposition is the problem and neo liberalism isn't like it's something inevitable.  It's a plague. And no, United Russia isn't going anywhere. And neo liberalism will thankfully be prevented thanks to constitutional change.

    Dumbass.

    It will only be neo-liberalism if Putin does something exceptionally stupid.

    But it will be an uprising of one form or another and could well lead to the fate of the USSR, the country disintegrating or decentralizing beyond effective governance. The West will win without a shot fired, and none of these new toys will matter.

    The constitutional change pretty much makes it inevitable that rising social contradictions and new demands will be fought in a rather non-constitutional way. Because there is no other avenue left.
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    Post  miketheterrible Sun Aug 23, 2020 5:54 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:You're a retard.

    The opposition is the problem and neo liberalism isn't like it's something inevitable.  It's a plague. And no, United Russia isn't going anywhere. And neo liberalism will thankfully be prevented thanks to constitutional change.

    Dumbass.

    It will only be neo-liberalism if Putin does something exceptionally stupid.

    But it will be an uprising of one form or another and could well lead to the fate of the USSR, the country disintegrating or decentralizing beyond effective governance. The West will win without a shot fired, and none of these new toys will matter.

    The constitutional change pretty much makes it inevitable that rising social contradictions and new demands will be fought in a rather non-constitutional way. Because there is no other avenue left.

    What?

    That makes zero sense and backed with nothing.

    First off, the constitutional change prevents uprising.  All uprisings in the last 50 years have been foreign funded and controlled.  There hasn't been a legit protest to overthrow a government in my lifetime.  Constitutional change prevents that from happening.  Second, it cements the idea that only a Russian can rule Russia.  Not an outsider.  Not someone who has dual citizenship.  There was a reason why it was voted upon democratically.  You see, Russia is a real democracy where the means of the many outweigh the means of the few by the concept of voting.  USSR failed cause it couldn't adjust itself and corruption was rife.

    Constitutional change doesn't make it illegal for people to protest.  It allows people to protest.  It allows people to speak their minds.  It also brings forth that other party members have to do their jobs rather than it being completely centrally controlled.  

    You clearly have not read the constitutional change.

    As a note, the "uprising" in Belarus (which has failed) is clearly cemented from outside around the Baltics/Poland.  Anyone with half a brain can see that.  It is already tapering out.

    Russia already went through a "revolution" and everyone remembers how that happened.  You clearly werent there when it happened.

    I suggest you get yourself a tea and sit down and read this.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/constitutional-reform-will-strangle-russias-internal-saboteurs/

    Russias constitution was written by Americans. Russia was doomed to fail unless they fixed it which they did.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:52 am

    You're a retard.

    I suggest you have a cup of tea and a sit down yourself... it is not acceptable to abuse another member this way.

    I have not received any complaints about this, but he has every right to an opinion that is different from yours.

    An arm or a leg might be a very very useful appendage but once gangrene sets in it is better to lose the limb than your life.

    Right now Belarus is not the lifeblood of Russia... the reverse is not true... but doesn't matter if they don't see that themselves.

    Right now Belarus is an important ally and friend, but Luka is a power crazed idiot that is no ally of Russia till the alternative is pointed out to him in blood.

    As pointed out above... he is not interested in cooperation and unification with Russia... he is a tick on the ass of a cow gorging on rich nutritious blood... but not really doing the cow much good at all.

    Such a selfish partner is worse than no partner at all... it is not the 1940s... HATO putting tanks and planes closer to Russias borders means they will just be easier to pick off with nuclear weapons as they form up for their attack... the explosions will happen in Belarus and Ukraine instead of Poland and Hungary , but the results will be the same and the radiation will move west...
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:37 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    What?

    That makes zero sense and backed with nothing.

    First off, the constitutional change prevents uprising.

    How can it prevent uprising if the constitutional changes were rejected by the Russian people only for the results to be falsified?

    Don't you think that something like this would provoke a level of cynicism in society similar to the one that developed by the 80s? And that any idiot can then come along and promise change and then the people would jump to it simply because they're just tired of all the old faces?

    All uprisings in the last 50 years have been foreign funded and controlled.

    Including the end of the USSR I presume?
    Or you can take the Russian revolution of 1917 - what is it that you're going to tell me about that one, that Lenin was a German spy?

    I'm sure that with the start of the Khabarovsk mass-protests, all the Kremlin politologists and idealogues were scrambling to find out which clan did what, which oligarch, which foreign agency. But the people won't all just start marching around the streets over nothing, even if someone was trying to organize something. There has to be underlying discontent.

    You see Russians are beginning to realize that this is exactly what the Russian government thinks of them. A rabble with no mind of their own that has to be kept on a leash and told what to do, and that they can have no legitimate concerns or dissent; it's always just some foreign spies that are brainwashing them and the Russian govt. is simply doing them a favour and acting in their people's best interests at all time.
    It's certainly true that like any mass of ordinary people, they're not particularly politically educated and will fall for charlatans. But it's the government's own fault that they're not being educated in political theory. Who runs the education system?
    There is such a thing as discontent, as cyncism, as oppression and it will motivate people to drastic measures sooner or later. We really only have until the next big economic crisis, or perhaps just the elections in 2024.

    There hasn't been a legit protest to overthrow a government in my lifetime.  Constitutional change prevents that from happening.  Second, it cements the idea that only a Russian can rule Russia.  Not an outsider.  Not someone who has dual citizenship.  There was a reason why it was voted upon democratically.  You see, Russia is a real democracy where the means of the many outweigh the means of the few by the concept of voting.  USSR failed cause it couldn't adjust itself and corruption was rife.

    The constitution is a document that defines the relationship between the people and their state.

    But there's no real sense in it if it's just arbitrarily rewritten with no consent, or even before that - it's various statutes are selectively applied or ignored.
    At that stage the constitution becomes useless, and the whole structure or even existence of the state starts to enter the question.

    Constitutional change doesn't make it illegal for people to protest.  It allows people to protest.  It allows people to speak their minds.  It also brings forth that other party members have to do their jobs rather than it being completely centrally controlled.  

    You clearly have not read the constitutional change.

    What people mainly associate it with is Putin nulling his served terms.

    And if the results have been falsified then it's a fair bet that Putin himself will falsify his future elections too.

    All in all he's beginning to look like a greedy oligarch that's afraid of losing power, because of all the riches he stole and unsavoury dealings he's been up to.
    And he keeps digging himself a deeper and deeper hole and associating himself with every grief anyone has with the country. He has personified everyone's dissatisfaction, regardless of his level of personal culpability in this or that matter. Because that's where centralizing everything, declaring yourself ruler for life and treating your own people as sheep gets you. He has forgotten that for whatever political technologies, campaign promises, personality cults, TV media control - it was the people that elected him and approved of him getting such power in the first place. And he better show some respect back as he's not a lord, not a Tsar - but a servant.
    IMO he's heading for the lamppost, I'm sure he's becoming a toxic figure even to many elites and high-ups that earlier supported him. Not immediately, but it's getting there.

    He best start thinking of a way out and to make way for other candidates to present their ideas on Russia's development. If he gets down off his pedestal a little I'm sure there's still room to be remembered as a corrupt but successful ruler and no-one will care too deeply about uncovering whatever, simply moving on and trying some new concepts.

    As a note, the "uprising" in Belarus (which has failed) is clearly cemented from outside around the Baltics/Poland.  Anyone with half a brain can see that.  It is already tapering out.

    Russia already went through a "revolution" and everyone remembers how that happened.  You clearly werent there when it happened.

    I suggest you get yourself a tea and sit down and read this.

    https://www.stalkerzone.org/constitutional-reform-will-strangle-russias-internal-saboteurs/

    Russias constitution was written by Americans.  Russia was doomed to fail unless they fixed it which they did.

    It doesn't really matter. Of course it's a crappy oligarchic constitution rewritten after the Supreme Soviet was shelled by Boris Yeltsin and all the other elected soviets throughout the country were disbanded by decree.
    The problem though is that Putinism is really just an extension of Yeltsinism; and it's also a dead-end

    A constitution that is followed and not illegally rewritten is still better than no constitution at all.

    I'm all for a new constitution, but let a new presidential candidate propose one, rather than just Putin rewritting it and mixing in all sorts of unrelated crap in at once in violation of procedure and in the hope of fooling the people, just to allow himself to remain in power indefinitely.
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    Talking bollocks thread #3 - Page 13 Empty temporary talking bollocks thread

    Post  GarryB Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:45 am

    The bollocks is going to the appropriate thread...
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    Post  Isos Thu Aug 27, 2020 12:13 pm

    Did this really happened ? Who was manning the t-55 ? Leo 1 has a shitty armor that could be easily penetrated by t-54/55. I guess the serbs were not real military personel and missed their target.


    Facebook tanks.being.tanks wrote:Danish Leopard 1A5DK as part of the SFOR (Stabilization Force) deployed in Bosnia and Hezergovina, with its rubber sideskirt lifted up.

    The Danish Leopard 1A5DK combat experience during its time deployed as part of the Peacekeeper force marks the first actual engagement faced by the Leopard 1 tank since its introduction in the mid-1950s. Not only it was the first Leopard 1 to see combat, the Danish Leopards were also the only Leopard 1 used by any army to have knocked out a tank in combat so far.

    The incident happened during Operation Bøllebank (April 29th 1994), when the Bosnian-Serbs were attacking UN outpost (NORDBAT 2) in Tuzla, prompting the Danes to roll their tank to support the Norwegian and Swedish troop stationed in this outpost.

    En-route to the Outpost, the tank group were ambushed by the Bosnian-Serb forces using mortars and anti-tank rockets. As a response to this, the Leopards immediately counter-attacked the enemy force, firing 72 main gun rounds (19 Sabot rounds, 44 brisance rounds, and 19 phosphorus rounds.)

    Of the Three T-55 used by the Bosnian-Serbs present engaging the Leopards, all of them were reported disabled (some said they retreated), while the Leopards also hit their ammunition dump and bunker, with 150 estimated casualties while the Peacekeeper force didn't even suffer from any loss.

    5 months and 26 days later, the Leopards were again involved in active combat during Operation Amanda, when the Danish Leopards were part of the force tasked to recapture an outpost (S01) occupied by the Bosnian-Serb forces.

    Just like the previous engagement, the Leopard got itself ambushed; this time near Gradačac, Bosnia by a T-55 tank and recoilless gun emplacement. Of course the Danes retaliated back, and they knocked out that single T-55 and a recoilless gun emplacement while only suffering minor damage on one of their Leopard 1 tank.

    #Gatto_Nero
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    Post  kvs Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:46 am

    I will continue the off topic debate in the Mig-29 thread here.

    Jamming is a very sneaky term. It really originates from the dawn of radars and is based on the idea of creating a cacophony of EM on the small number of bands/frequencies
    that original radars operated. One could call this the low energy jamming. This trick no longer works on modern wide-band non-radar radars. To apply the jamming concept one
    would have to flood wide bands of the EM spectrum with spurious noise. This is physically impossible without blasting off custom nukes. So jamming of modern systems is
    really EW with EMP type approaches. Overloading the detection systems with magnetically induced currents defeats them without having to fill up the ambient environment with
    jamming signals,

    NATzO does not have EMP munitions to "jam" S-300 and S-400 systems. It also does not have serious mobile systems that can "jam" Russian systems. And you can bet your
    last precious penny that Russia has implemented anti-EMP measures in the S-400 and S-300. All those retards who laugh at the "primitive" Russian electronics have zero
    physics education. They instead have nose-picking fantasy projection. Building the electronics in S-400 systems to withstand high transient currents requires the use of
    "primitive" LSI and non-LSI designs. On top of this, there are custom current sinks (not just large capacitors or resistors) that turn the rogue currents into heat. Try this with dainty
    14 nm ICs and you will get slag instead of circuit boards. So retards can keep on laughing.

    I suspect that use of ULSI CPUs is done in a dispersed manner with offsite, multi-node processing linked via high bandwidth encrypted communications. But it would not surprise me
    if there was some anti-EMP solution consisting of nested Faraday cages with the right wavelength structure to induce anti-currents on top of currents. If any country on Earth is capable
    of coming out with such physically motivated designs it is Russia. But of course, we have all sorts of NATzO fanbois desperately yapping that Russians are dumb mud hut dwellers
    who can only steal all of their tech. Hitler was one such moron who discovered too late that his hubris and chauvinism was worth nothing.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:46 am

    has anyone found anything to indicate if the TU-160 can supercruise?

    I don't think it can...

    Perhaps with new upgraded engines, but probably not at full weight...

    I seem to remember the F-14A having flaky engines but the F-14D got new engines that generated as much thrust in dry power as the old engines generated in full AB so the F-14D could take off from an aircraft carrier without AB.... with its swing wing I think supercruising could be an option perhaps... a modern version with lightweight composite materials and lighter avionics would be rather impressive even today.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Sep 20, 2020 1:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    has anyone found anything to indicate if the TU-160 can supercruise?

    I don't think it can...

    Perhaps with new upgraded engines, but probably not at full weight...

    I seem to remember the F-14A having flaky engines but the F-14D got new engines that generated as much thrust in dry power as the old engines generated in full AB so the F-14D could take off from an aircraft carrier without AB.... with its swing wing I think supercruising could be an option perhaps... a modern version with lightweight composite materials and lighter avionics would be rather impressive even today.

    Yeah, it was an expensive aircraft but nothing compared to what they are buying now. The only problems were the weak engines (mostly solved with the latest upgrade) and the relatively outdated avionics (but it could have been easily solved with an upgrade like those on f18, f16 etc).
    Of course for the Americans there was also the lack of stealth,  even if it is overrated and anyway it was not its main purpose to be stealthy.

    They decided to retire the  aircraft from service, at the same time destroying almost all aircrafts and all spares and production equipment,  only to not be able to reverse the decision (and they motivated the decision with the risk of Iran getting spares for their f14)...

    Well the f14 is not needed if you just want to bomb third world countries without modern airforce...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:26 pm

    Today, F-14s would be useless against Tu-22M3/95MS/160M2s armed with Kinzhals or other LR AShMs.

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    Post  mnztr Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:14 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Today, F-14s would be useless against Tu-22M3/95MS/160M2s armed with Kinzhals or other LR AShMs.

    Yes this is the real reason. The idea of intercepting Russian planes before they could launch became obsolete with the KH-22
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    Post  mnztr Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:17 am

    GarryB wrote:
    has anyone found anything to indicate if the TU-160 can supercruise?

    I don't think it can...

    Perhaps with new upgraded engines, but probably not at full weight...

    I seem to remember the F-14A having flaky engines but the F-14D got new engines that generated as much thrust in dry power as the old engines generated in full AB so the F-14D could take off from an aircraft carrier without AB.... with its swing wing I think supercruising could be an option perhaps... a modern version with lightweight composite materials and lighter avionics would be rather impressive even today.

    Even if it cannot on dry thrust (129K lb in total) can it do so with 10% afterburner or so? How far can it travel at supersonic. Such an enigmatic plane still, so little is known about it.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:21 pm

    Today, F-14s would be useless against Tu-22M3 /95MS/160M2s armed with Kinzhals or other LR AShMs.

    It could fly further and faster with more weapons than either of its replacements, and can use long range AAMs.

    How far can it travel at supersonic.

    My understanding is that with a strategic payload (ie about 28 tons) it has a flight radius of about 10,000km with 1,000km each way at high speed... ie it flys 4,000km to approach enemy airspace and then accelerates to supersonic for 1,000km in and 1,000km out and then subsonic for the 4,000km back.
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    Post  mnztr Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Today, F-14s would be useless against Tu-22M3 /95MS/160M2s armed with Kinzhals or other LR AShMs.

    It could fly further and faster with more weapons than either of its replacements, and can use long range AAMs.

    How far can it travel at supersonic.

    My understanding is that with a strategic payload (ie about 28 tons) it has a flight radius of about 10,000km with 1,000km each way at high speed... ie it flys 4,000km to approach enemy airspace and then accelerates to supersonic for 1,000km in and 1,000km out and then subsonic for the 4,000km back.


    Yes about the F-14, but the concept of the naval interceptor was rendered useless by the TU-22 and KH-22 system. Now the Chinese have have similar options

    the mission profile you discribe is pretty much all the TU-needs. 1000 KM at mach 2, no fighter can really sustain that in a tail chase. not even the raptor.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:03 am

    If Tupolevs are attacking US carriers then they wont be Blackjacks... Blackjacks and Bears will be very busy doing other things... Backfires have a mission radius of about 4,000km, which becomes a mission radius of about 2,000km at supersonic speeds.

    These aircraft flying fast can be detected from 5,000km away or more so the ships under attack will have plenty of warning the enemy bombers are inbound and they can launch interceptor fighters... if they launch nothing then the ships are on their own... if they launch interceptors your aircraft can start engaging incoming aircraft and missiles from about 1,000km out... which means any attacking force starts taking casualties from about 1,300km distance from the target which is the aircraft carrier... as soon as those interceptors start launching AAMs at the bombers and missiles more Interceptors will be launching from the carriers... those interceptors and missiles and guns and could shoot down any bombers they come across.

    In their original state they would struggle to shoot down Kh-32s at 40km altitude moving at mach 5, but Kh-22M moved at about Mach 3 and 22km altitude which would be reachable for Phoenix missiles of the time.

    Newer hypersonic missiles will be tougher but they can certainly take potshots as they blew past and at about 500km range the next wave of interceptors could have another bash at intercepting them.

    Once they get close to the ships there are Standard SAM... which in my very biased anti US opinion are the only decent SAMs they operate that is part of an IADS called AEGIS that has any chance at all of stopping a missile attack.

    Without carriers they would lose even more ships, but right now manouvering scramjet powered very high speed missiles are a threat, but over time and experience these problems can be solved too... launch a ballistic Standard 6 missile with a high energy nuclear warhead in the path of any Chinese anti ship ballistic missile, and send them a message that if they launch another weapon at a US ship US forces in the region will launch an IRBM and hit a Chinese city....

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    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:14 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Backfires have a mission radius of about 4,000km, which becomes a mission radius of about 2,000km at supersonic speeds.
    - they can be mid-air refueled to give longer range.
    These aircraft flying fast can be detected from 5,000km away or more...
    -MiG-31s escorting them could shoot down AWACS & interceptors with their LR AAMs.
    launch a ballistic Standard 6 missile with a high energy nuclear warhead in the path of any Chinese anti ship ballistic missile, ....
    I doubt that a nuclear warhead would fit on this size missile:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-174_Standard_ERAM#Description


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  mnztr Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:56 pm

    What tracking radar can detect bombers at 5000 KM? OTH? If so how do you discern intent at 5000 km. Also the opposition can launch attack waves so your planes are on fumes, approach, turn back when the defence is launched, pick up fuel from tankers and then supersonic dash back in to the 1000 KM radius to launch. If the F18E is gonna do an intercept at 1000KM its going to be loaded with fuel and still relying on buddy tankers to get it home. We are talking about the very edge of operational capability. It will have no time on station at all. Also at that range they will have very limited use of afterburners. the TU-22 can be accompanied by tankers out to about 1500 km to target. They top up tanks, full afterburner approach, once in launch radius burners off, weapons release, burners on and dash back to tankers for gas. cruise home. Its well nigh impossible to defend against such an attack with the current and proposed fighters on US carriers.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:17 am

    I doubt that a nuclear warhead would fit on this size missile

    They put nuclear warheads in 152mm artillery shells weighing about 40kgs, why do you think it would be a problem putting a slightly bigger warhead in such a missile.

    A 65kg HE warhead takes up a bit of space... a bit of volume... because HE is not as heavy or as dense as metal so the room a 65kg HE warhead takes up could be replaced by an 80kg nuclear warhead of about 50 Kilotons....

    What tracking radar can detect bombers at 5000 KM? OTH? If so how do you discern intent at 5000 km.

    The US has monitoring stations in most of the countries that border Russia and of course satellites and other spy aircraft not attached to the carrier group will always be watching.

    Soviet radar in the Soviet Union tracked SR-71s flying over Vietnam... aircraft flying high and fast are easy to spot.

    Also the opposition can launch attack waves so your planes are on fumes, approach, turn back when the defence is launched, pick up fuel from tankers and then supersonic dash back in to the 1000 KM radius to launch.

    The average US aircraft carrier has more than 12 fighters on board at any one time... flying planes out to 1,000km patrol areas guarding the directions Russian attack bombers can come from is not hard. They can cycle the number of aircraft in the air...

    If the F18E is gonna do an intercept at 1000KM its going to be loaded with fuel and still relying on buddy tankers to get it home. We are talking about the very edge of operational capability.

    For the F-18 yes, for the F-14D no. That is what I am talking about. They are dumbing down their fighters for no obvious reason... they could have operated a navalised F-22 type fighter if they wanted... the Russians will likely use a naval Su-57... why would they not?

    It will have no time on station at all.

    Defending its carrier group it will be launching missiles and turning and heading home to rearm and refuel to do it again.

    Also at that range they will have very limited use of afterburners.

    Why would they need afterburners.... the targets are likely coming towards them at very high speed anyway...

    the TU-22 can be accompanied by tankers out to about 1500 km to target. They top up tanks, full afterburner approach, once in launch radius burners off, weapons release, burners on and dash back to tankers for gas.

    Except one minor problem... Tu-22M3s don't have inflight refuelling capability, and F-18s do, so if one party is using inflight refuelling resources to extend range it will be the Americans.

    Its well nigh impossible to defend against such an attack with the current and proposed fighters on US carriers.

    You are not listening.

    Carrier based fighters don't make US carriers and US carrier groups invincible, there will be a lot of weapons they will have serious trouble dealing with... in fact a good version of Zircon to develop would be one that hunts down AWACS aircraft, because taking down a carriers AWACS planes breaks their IADS and makes it less effective and less well able to coordinate the air defence.

    Aircraft carriers don't make a group of ships weaker, they make it much more powerful and safer from enemy attack.

    Are you suggesting that land based airfields are too vulnerable and every country on the planet should just have Armies and not Air Forces because SAMs will shoot down all the planes... it is just as stupid as saying MANPADS and ATGMS mean helicopters and tanks are stupid and obsolete too.

    The fact is that big ships are vulnerable to new very high speed missiles, but big ships are also the best defended ships any navy has... it would be vastly easier to overwhelm a modern corvette than a cold war cruiser... so a modern cruiser is going to be even harder to sink than a dozen corvettes... and a hell of a lot more useful too.
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    Post  mnztr Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:44 pm

    TU-22s are getting refuelling probes. Even if the carrier has 50-60 fighters maintaining a patrol 1000 KM distant is a massive strain on their resources about 2/3 of the planes will be hauling fuel. The TU-22 can also approach low, they will be difficult to spot even with OTH radar in some areas, and their intentions will not be clear until they get within about 2000 KM. If the carriers are within 2000 KM if a Russian base in a conflict they are playing with fire for sure. The F-14 is dead and even its combat radius is listed at around 890km.  

    Sure a carrier is hard to sink, but I doubt it would be operational after a single KH-32 hit...maybe I am wrong, but I doubt it.

    Air fields can be made operational much, much more quickly then a carrier. Comparing the 2 is not reasonable. Airfields really need a runway to launch and recover planes, and fuel and weapons. Even if those are hit they can be replaced much more easily then a carriers systems. Days vs months.

    They traded the capability of the F-14 for more F-18s because the premise of the F-14 was no longer viable. F-14 with phoenix missiles cannot stop an attack with reasonable certainty to justify the cost. And only Russia is really capable of launching the type of attack that invalidates them. Ergo, carriers still great, but useless against Russia and now Chinese. Other then that STILL GREAT for beating up on the weaklings. Plus great for the MIC welfare system.

    Showing up and launching missiles assumes the attackers are not playing games, ecm etc. There will be a lot of decoy attacks, probing and launching missiles will mean the war is on. So yes they will need time on station. What if the Russian send decoy drones, they shoot those down and the TU-22 exploit a short gap and come screaming in at Mach 1.8 and launch? so many options. The USN decided it could not be done, they know their stuff better then any of us.

    I don't agree a modern cruiser is easier to sink then a dozen corvettes. It really depends on the disposition and arming of the corvettes. Fact is you will have to get 12 hits vs 1 hit and with the cruiser its much easier to concentrate your attacking force on one objective vs 12 well dispositioned targets. Based on what we saw in the Falklands, one hit will render any modern destroyer or cruiser inoperative. Based on how the USS Bonhomme burned I don't think carriers will do much better. Even deck accidents have rendered US carriers inoperative let alone being struck by a large explosive projectile.

    I always wonder if the end of the F-14 was related to the USSR collapse. Only USSR had the capability to attack. When relations improved and the cold war ended the risk abated. Maybe they might try and come up with a new interceptor concept, but I doubt it. Simply because missile tech has come too far.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:14 pm

    They are dumbing down their fighters for no obvious reason...
    They didn't want to spend $ on modernizing & operating F-14s even with ground attack capability when more F-18E/F could be procured instead, which r capable of self-escorting missions. With CFTs their unrefueled range will be increased. Besides, the USN works closely with the USAF, esp. in power projection ashore.
    Btw, Su-30/34s can also be used against NATO CSGs:
    SU-30MKI can well go up to 8000 km with two air-to-air refuelings..
    "The BrahMos’s launch range to the target is 300 km, while Su-30MKI jet fighter’s range with air refueling is over 3,000 km.. 

    They can use ARMs in the 1st wave to blind all ships' & AWACS radars before Tu-22M3M/95MSs unleash their AShMs. 
    For added range & speed, Tu-160s could be pressed as well- the USN would likely have 2-3 CVNs + the AF working together.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:11 am

    TU-22s are getting refuelling probes.

    Only the 60 odd upgraded Tu-22M3Ms, and they barely have enough inflight refuelling planes to support their strategic bombers... they won't have enough for naval attack planes as well.

    Even if the carrier has 50-60 fighters maintaining a patrol 1000 KM distant is a massive strain on their resources about 2/3 of the planes will be hauling fuel.

    It is their job. It is what they are for.

    The TU-22 can also approach low, they will be difficult to spot even with OTH radar in some areas, and their intentions will not be clear until they get within about 2000 KM.

    Approaching low means approaching subsonic, and the US has radar stations around the world in all sorts of countrys as well as satellite coverage...

    If the carriers are within 2000 KM if a Russian base in a conflict they are playing with fire for sure. The F-14 is dead and even its combat radius is listed at around 890km.

    When they had F-14Ds, they also had S-3 Viking inflight refuelling aircraft...

    Sure a carrier is hard to sink, but I doubt it would be operational after a single KH-32 hit...maybe I am wrong, but I doubt it.

    An aircraft carrier is not on its own. It increases the defence of any surface group of ships it operates with.

    It is not invulnerable.... BECAUSE NOTHING IS.

    Air fields can be made operational much, much more quickly then a carrier. Comparing the 2 is not reasonable. Airfields really need a runway to launch and recover planes, and fuel and weapons. Even if those are hit they can be replaced much more easily then a carriers systems. Days vs months.

    An aircraft carrier is mobile so you can take it with the ships it is supposed to be protecting. Who cares if you can just fill in the dirt on a runway in Russia... it is still useless defending Russian ships in the Pacific Ocean or Indian Ocean.

    If carriers are big easy targets then all airfields are too. Moscow is a big easy target... Russia needs to spread its population out into small communities of 500 people or less and then the west will never be able to defeat the with a nuclear weapon attack... except if they did do that then there would be nothing left to defeat, because just like not building aircraft carriers and cruisers and other ships of worth... having a fleet of all corvettes would be bloody useless so they wouldn't even bother trying to defeat you... you would have nothing worth defeating... they could just set up blockades around the world around all your economic trade partners and starve and isolate you with impunity. Why would Venezuela trade with a country that can't come and help them? Less risky to just trade with China.

    They traded the capability of the F-14 for more F-18s because the premise of the F-14 was no longer viable.

    They went for a smaller lighter and more expensive fighter plane with shorter range and slower flight speed. There were plenty of upgrades for the Tomcat that could have made it much cheaper and much more sophisticated.

    When they withdrew the Intruder aircraft from service they upgraded the F-14 to attack ground targets... they added LANTIRN pods and this system:

    Some F-14Ds were upgraded in 2005 with a ROVER III Full Motion Video (FMV) downlink, a system that transmits real-time images from the aircraft's sensors to the laptop of Forward air controller (FAC) on the ground...

    So the plane flying over the target area sent a real time image of radar and thermal imaging views of the area around the forward air controller and the FAC picked out the targets by selecting them and the pilot hit them.... damn.... what a useless piece of crap... But hang on... the A in FA-18 means it should have been the F-18 doing that... except it wasn't that good at ground attack.

    Essentially the F/A-18 was supposed to be the ground attack plane while the F-14 was the fighter, but the F-14 ended up doing the fighting and the ground attack.

    The F-35 is supposed to be the strike aircraft and the F-18 is supposed to be the fighter, but I suspect lack of range and speed and internal weapons capacity means the F-18 can probably carry more and faster and further than the F-35 can when being stealthy. When carrying external weapons the F-35 will be not stealthy so they might as well use the faster Hornet.

    To be honest I really don't care about US carrier aircraft choices, they clearly have forgotten what they are doing... just like their Air Force...

    Breaking News... US Navy considering carrier based F-15BS to replace the F-35 and F-18...

    F-14 with phoenix missiles cannot stop an attack with reasonable certainty to justify the cost.

    I would agree it will not stop Kinzhal or Zircon, but Kh-22 and Kh-22M it would have a good chance. Against Kh-32 it just flys too high... mach 4.5 at 40km altitude is just too high, but Standard missiles would be used against such targets...

    The point is that having aircraft carriers and having fighters and AWACS platforms makes sneak attacks almost impossible and successful attacks much less likely.

    Just like on land with an airforce that also watches out for enemy incursions.

    And only Russia is really capable of launching the type of attack that invalidates them. Ergo, carriers still great, but useless against Russia and now Chinese. Other then that STILL GREAT for beating up on the weaklings. Plus great for the MIC welfare system.

    US carrier groups have been pointless for WWIII for the last 50 years... their strike aircraft just wont penetrate Russian land based air defences... it is pointless... but in situations where the US fleet is having problems the quickest responding asset is air power... any time there is a problem anywhere in the world the first question is... where is the nearest carrier group and how long till it can get there...

    Right now hypersonic manouvering missiles are a problem for everyone, but in 10 years time solutions will be available... and it wont involve using large numbers of smaller ships because large numbers of smaller hypersonic missiles would be an easy and cheap solution to that stupidity.

    Saying a Navy doesn't need big ships and aircraft carriers is like saying Russia does not need S-400 and S-500 SAMs or airfields.

    Future weapons are going to fly very high above the engagement envelope of S-300 and S-350 missiles... simply because it is more efficient to fly through the thinner colder air up there... right now against the Russian Navy the Kh-32 would be a serious problem simply because they have no SAMs in service that can intercept targets flying at 40km altitude.... Mach 4.5 is not too fast to intercept but rather difficult if it is manouvering.... as it approaches a US carrier group and rapid climb from 40km up to 60km or 80km and then a near vertical dive down on the targets spiralling to avoid any interceptors launched to try to stop it... AFAIK the US Navy has no missile directors that can point straight up... and moving at the speed it will be going it will be through the target so quickly if you blinked you could miss it... but punching down vertically through a ship shouldn't be too much of a problem and when it hits salt water underneath detonating its 200kg warhead would create an enormous gas bubble under the hull of the ship which will rise up and lift the ship out of the water at a point that has just been punctured... most likely finishing the job of breaking the back of any ship no matter how big and sinking it.

    What if the Russian send decoy drones, they shoot those down and the TU-22 exploit a short gap and come screaming in at Mach 1.8 and launch? so many options. The USN decided it could not be done, they know their stuff better then any of us.

    You are saying US aircraft carriers are useless because they can't defend from an all out Russian attack... with any F-18s or F-14s nearby Tu-22s are enormously vulnerable like any bomber aircraft against fighter aircraft....

    Have you been ignoring everything I am suggesting for the Russian fleet.... the best longest range fighter planes they have... Su-57s... carrier borne AWACS platforms that also serve the basis for inflight refuelling support aircraft... the US hasn't got Tu-22s... they are talking about reviving the B-1Bs to a similar role, but none of the weapons I have seen is much better than Tomahawk.... so essentially whether they launch them from F-18s or from B-1Bs it really does not matter because in both cases they will be launched from the max range of the missile, so most of the time it will be the missiles they have to deal with, and I would guess Su-57s would be pretty good at shooting down missiles of all types... they will be getting anti satellite missiles too.

    I don't agree a modern cruiser is easier to sink then a dozen corvettes. It really depends on the disposition and arming of the corvettes. Fact is you will have to get 12 hits vs 1 hit and with the cruiser its much easier to concentrate your attacking force on one objective vs 12 well dispositioned targets.

    12 Corvettes would not have the vision range of a cruiser even with helicopters on board... corvettes will have short range SAMs and perhaps medium range SAMs and one hit will kill every time. The only benefit of a corvette is its short range and lack of endurance will mean it will remain close to friendly shores and can benefit from land based forces... a group of 12 Russian corvettes in the southern Atlantic Ocean could be dealt with simply by intercepting their supply ships, plus 12 Zircons.

    Based on what we saw in the Falklands, one hit will render any modern destroyer or cruiser inoperative. Based on how the USS Bonhomme burned I don't think carriers will do much better. Even deck accidents have rendered US carriers inoperative let alone being struck by a large explosive projectile.

    That is very true, but without the carrier the Falklands would never have been retaken by a fleet of Corvettes... not then and not now. They lost ships because they pussied out and bought a mini carrier with Harriers instead of real fighters and AWACS aircraft. The bean counters won and cost a few billion dollars in ships that would otherwise have not been lost, and their experience led them to what they are now... guess what... their new carrier is rather more like the Kuznetsov than any of the Kiev class ships they thought were wonderful because they were cheaper.

    I always wonder if the end of the F-14 was related to the USSR collapse.

    If it was then it was very short sighted... they withdrew them in 2006 when Russia was starting to get back on its feet...

    I suspect it had more to do with the F-35 mafia trying to sabotage any possible alternative system by having all the spares and toolings to make spares for the F-14 destroyed to prevent Iran from getting hold of them.

    Maybe they might try and come up with a new interceptor concept, but I doubt it. Simply because missile tech has come too far.

    The US Air Force has put the F-15 back in to production... if the navy had any brains they would look at a F-33 variant like Sukhoi did with the Flanker...

    They didn't want to spend $ on modernizing & operating F-14s even with ground attack capability when more F-18E/F could be procured instead, which r capable of self-escorting missions.

    F-14Ds were used in Afghanistan because the Hornets didn't have the range.

    With CFTs their unrefueled range will be increased. Besides, the USN works closely with the USAF, esp. in power projection ashore.
    Btw, Su-30/34 s can also be used against NATO CSGs:

    You are not getting it.... such aircraft will be attacking US carrier groups whether there are carriers present or not... the aircraft carriers actually make them better able to survive an attack... they certainly don't make them more vulnerable.

    They can use ARMs in the 1st wave to blind all ships' & AWACS radars before Tu-22M3M/95MSs unleash their AShM s.
    For added range & speed, Tu-160s could be pressed as well- the USN would likely have 2-3 CVNs + the AF working together.

    ARMs are just Ms.... the Soviet and Russian air defences are optimised to shoot down ARMs to prevent them from degrading the defence, so for a Russian aircraft carrier group it would just warn them that the attack was starting... which would be worse than useless.

    There will be no Bears of Blackjacks involved... they will not go hunting for US ships. MiG-31s will launch Kinzhal missiles at US ships that get within range, so US carriers will be fine as long as they don't approach Russian defences.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Thu Sep 24, 2020 6:48 pm

    There will be no Bears of Blackjacks involved... they will not go hunting for US ships. MiG-31s will launch Kinzhal missiles at US ships that get within range, so US carriers will be fine as long as they don't approach Russian defences.
    what if the VMF is sent to help Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina or China in & around the Caribbean, S. Atlantic & the SC Seas? The VKS planes will be there anyway as well, & both service branches will then complement each other.
    Tu-95/160s longer unrefueled range will reduce the # of tanker planes needed. Besides, there r many older IL-76s that can be converted, like those 4 that Pakistan got from Ukraine.
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    Post  mnztr Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:14 pm

    Sorry garry but this obsession with carriers is a bit dated. They used F-14s because they had them. Like any platform there were people in the Navy that wanted to keep their beloved Tomcat, heck I think its a cool plane too. With the US tanker fleet there is really no reason to use F-14s, as long as you don't mind paying $120/gallon for jet fuel (DOD does not mind). There is NO REASON a cruiser should be able to see further then a corvette..expecially a largish one. There are planes that can haul 500 KM radar so no reason a corvette cannot haul a powerful radar, and drone recon platforms. When laser weapons arise they will be easily installed on smaller ships. The Chinese laser cannon test platform is not very large at all. They will not need as much power as you think. If you say 12 zircons can sink 12 corvettes then I would say 1-2 will sink a cruiser. But that assumption is the ships are all defenceless. The 12 corvettes or Frigates can have different specialties. Air/Sub/anti ship etc. as a group they can be very powerful. Yes and with the right recon info they can even strike a carrier group from outside the attack radius of its airplanes. So the carrier can send out F-18s to 5-600KM maybe launch LRASM with 800 km range. They are still shy of Kaliber M maximum range. Anyway a group of corvettes will not be seeking combat with a CBG, the Russians will use airpower and subs and surface ships, but the Corvettes will not be defenceless if HQ provides the proper intel.
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    Post  Isos Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:28 pm

    F-14 with the phoenix was a real danger for Tupolevs.

    F-18 and f-35 are jokes compare to it.

    Buddy-buddy refuelers won't help for interception. During an interception of a a mach 2 bomber launching missiles 1000km and soon 1500-2000km away you need to be fast, long ranged and have a deadly missile that is also fast, updated and long range.

    Just imagine an f-18 or an f-35 going supersonic to intercept them. 500km away and they fall in the water because no fuel left. Refueling them is possible but limited to few aircraft to have them permanently far away.

    Russia can also use now long range supersonic drones imitating tupolevs so that the carrier launches its fighters and after the interception of those fake targets, they would be left with no fuel so that big part will need to land on the carrier complicating the launch of new aircraft while the real tupolevs will be 20-30min away from the drones attacking when the hornets and f-35 will be landing.

    Irony would be that US tries this sort of tactics against russian AD. Intercept fake target and be left without defences against the real threat.

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