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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    caveat emptor
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  caveat emptor Sun May 01, 2022 8:36 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Tashkent factory used to be very big in SU, but I'm not sure if this is better than building more capacity in Russia.

    Helping them is a good way of making them friendly... we have seen how the US has done nothing to protect and help grow Antonov or Motor Sich... so this would be a good way to boost production numbers of Russian designs that they can help produce but if they screw Russia then cutting off ties will only reduce production capacity, and their new US friends wont do anything to save them anyway.

    It is questionable how many qualified workforce is still around after 30+ years.

    There will be a generation of grandparents with fond memories of good paying jobs they will want their grandchildren to get... a good potential future for their kids and their kids kids.

    Also, new Uzbekistan gov is pretty pro Western. Better build new capacity in Russia and try to bring over whatever workforce is left in Uzbekistan.

    Might sway them towards better relations with Russia... and will bring out the pro west 5th column who will try to sabotage good relations with Russia too.

    [quote[Same thing should be happening with Ukraine, especially MotorSich

    Most have likely already left and I suspect the future is looking rather bleak for military related industry there because Russia will want it to be largely demilitarised for obvious reasons... (so it can't be weaponised against them again with only 5 billion dollars and some cookies.).

    There will be plenty of things they can make that wont represent a threat to Russia that Russia can help them with and moving forward Russia is going to be investing in countries around the rest of the world to promote trade... that is going to include licence production and cooperation too.
    Garry aside from well wishing, i can tell that you don't know much about ex-SU. Tashkent Mechanical Plant ( new name) completely reoriented its prod after bankruptcy 10 years ago. Uzbekistan gov didn't want to invest money in aircraft production. Why would Russia, invest in a new foreign factory when they have obvious domestic problems with prod capacity in the sector and need to invest massive amounts of money? Until they build up and secure as much as possible in Russia i don't see a reason to even think about throwing massive amounts of money in foreign countries. Uzbekistan lately started liberalizing economy in a big way and has became a darling of West in stans. So there's another risk. Factory named after Chkalov ( old name) was relocated from Russia in the beginning of WW2. Most of the highly trained personal were Russians and others brought to Uzbekistan. After fall of SU majority left and many retired. 
    Outsourcing prod of vital sectors outside of Russia already proved costly, like in case of Ukraine. Making another strategic mistake would be nothing short of suicidal and idiotic. 
    There are other ways to be friendly with Uzb. Investing in non strategic sectors or giving them discount for weapons.
    I really hope another huge mess, like one that is now in engine industry , will not be allowed to happen. 
    Not to mention that sanctions will take its toll and some specialists from western owned companies based in Russia will lose jobs. No better way to employ them, then by Investing in production in Russia.


    Last edited by caveat emptor on Sun May 01, 2022 2:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun May 01, 2022 12:01 pm

    There are loads of empty or mostly empty aviation factories in Russia. VASO is still mostly empty. It could be making medium and large transport aircraft of several types. Aviastar isn't even running at half gas. Sokol isn't fully loaded and could be making small transport aircraft. KAPO is not fully loaded either. Just put the MC-21 into production and finish the Il-276 program already. And there is no need to make plants in the ex-SSRs. Russia won't be selling aircraft to the former Communist block anymore. They need a production chain which is closer together and more efficient. If they do make plants abroad, just license produce aircraft in partnership with final customer nations. India, China, Indonesia, and sell the engines and high technical complexity products for them to assemble into aircraft. There are other ways to enhance economic cooperation with the Stans and I do not think this is it to be honest.

    I also said it here, if I was the Russian government, UAC in particular, I would have opened a recruiting office near the Boeing design center in Russia and put all those engineers cracking on either the CRAIC CR929, the Il-276, or the Slon. I think they are being idiots not getting those people before they leave. They clearly have a lack of engineers working on transport aircraft. Just try reading about the disaster that has been the Il-112 program. They put a couple really veteran engineers who should have been retired already in charge of greenhorns and it was nothing but problems.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun May 01, 2022 10:37 pm

    It creates real independence making everything you need for yourself, but the problem there is that what can you trade in such a situation... the rest of the world trade partners have to have something they sell to you in return otherwise the trade inbalance will keep them poor and backward.

    Building an aircraft factory in a former Soviet State can make sense if you keep ownership and control of it, but if there are lots of aircraft building capacity in Russia not being used then of course fill those orderbooks first and upgrade that tooling and train that staff first.

    You are going to want support and service station capacity around the world so building factories does make sense but it makes sense to have it near your customer base so say Mexico doesn't have to send aircraft all the way back to Russia for an overhaul and full service... and of course in that situation having a service centre in Mexico or other nearby friendly country makes more sense than a former soviet republic that is potentially further away than a Russian factory might be.

    They really need to pull out the stops on planes that are not flying yet... Il-276 is fairly urgent and now that they have decided to produce Tu-204/214s in larger numbers consideration should also be given to Tu-330 as a potential new project too as it shares 70% of the design and is about 50% higher payload than the Il-276 which in roles like Jammer platform or inflight refuelling tanker or other jobs like transporting armoured vehicles makes it rather more interesting.

    The difference could be between carrying one BTR-82A and not much else or a Boomerang and its ammo and crew and supplies, where the Il-276 will carry about 20 tons and the Tu-330 was going to carry 35 tons.

    Smaller aircraft in that weight range are cheaper and easier to operate in a range of airfields and would be needed and used in larger numbers... especially now that road and rail links to the far north and far east have been expanded and lots of new paved runways are appearing too.

    Such transport aircraft are vastly cheaper than helicopters like Mi-26 in terms of speed and range...

    I fully agree that the Soviet Union was more of a burden to Russia than an advantage and if they want good relations and trade they need to pull their weight too and not just expect handouts and freebies from Moscow.
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 31 Empty Stans and Plans ... Tu-330

    Post  Gazputin Tue May 03, 2022 7:36 am

    Stans
    best way to keep the Stans "loyal" is to keep the Ruble strong so they send lots of "guest workers" to Russia to work in construction and factories there.
    Then they can send the money home to there families.
    Tartarstan actually has Turkic language and it was a natural gateway in USSR to the Stan republics and is a major reason why it is so successful.

    Transport aviation is a mess because its previous centre of excellence during Soviet times was Ukraine
    if you look at all the aviation areas it is the problem

    the other one you can see is small helicopter and aircraft and their engines
    ditto light aviation it was centred in Czech/Poland .... and Ukraine did their engines too

    turboprops in general are not a great strength of Russia
    and big high bypass engines ...

    speaking of which ..... having a high wing is well suited to big diameter high bypass engines
    maybe the smart move for Tupolev .... is 2x versions of the Tu-330
    an airliner and a transport version

    and drop any plans to do a modernised Tu-214 as it too similar to the MC-21
    get some laser-like focus on 1x design

    and forget about synergies re Tu-214 and 330 ..... just get synergies via 1x body for both .... Tu-330 in 2x versions

    ( that is what should have happened with the Il-114 and Il-112
    just 1x high wing design ... as a airliner and a transport plane )

    btw
    how does a Tu-330 with 2x PS-90s lift so much more than an Il-276 with 2x PS-90s ?
    it doesn't make sense to me ?











    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Tue May 03, 2022 10:44 am

    Gazputin wrote:Stans
    best way to keep the Stans "loyal" is to keep the Ruble strong so they send lots of "guest workers" to Russia to work in construction and factories there.
    Then they can send the money home to there families.
    Tartarstan actually has Turkic language and it was a natural gateway in USSR to the Stan republics and is a major reason why it is so successful.

    The best way for Russia to keep the Central Asian republics as close allies is to be strong economically, military and politically. Not because Russia should subsidize them, but because they do not perceive Russia as a failed nation as in the nineties..
    Still it would not hurt to have the plant in Tashkent producing useful aircraft components. Of course it must not be the sole supplier of any component, and there should always be also a russian source and supply chain for every componentbut now that Russia need to increase their aircraft production, why not have an alternative source there?

    Furthermore they could organise there a second assembly location for some transport aircrafts bought by Uzbekistan (and othe Stans). Of course the vast majority of the components would be sourced from Russia...


    Gazputin wrote:

    how does a Tu-330 with 2x PS-90s lift so much more than an Il-276 with 2x PS-90s ?
    it doesn't make sense to me ?

    neither to me...a little part of the reason could possibly be because the PS90 it is rated higher in the tu330 than in the other aircraft. The maximum possible takeoff thrust rating of the PS-90 is 17.6 tons, while the version on the il-(4)76 has a rating of 14 or 14,5 tons.

    However it is not a big difference enough to justify it. Also because the il-476 has a max payload of 60 tons...

    I would have expected something around 25 or 30 tons from the il 276, and not just 20, unless the design is completely unoptimised.

    Note:. The Ukrainians were declaring 18 tons of payload from their an-178 prototype, which has 2 engines with a thrust that is just a bit more than half of the one of the PS-90 (the progress D436 which has a takeoff thrust between 7 and 8 tons), I believe they completely lied about it (or just declared a max possible payload with a ridicously short range) but still the payload and range declared for the il276 were too small considering the engine thrust.
    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Tue May 03, 2022 4:05 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Gazputin wrote:Stans
    best way to keep the Stans "loyal" is to keep the Ruble strong so they send lots of "guest workers" to Russia to work in construction and factories there.
    Then they can send the money home to there families.
    Tartarstan actually has Turkic language and it was a natural gateway in USSR to the Stan republics and is a major reason why it is so successful.

    The best way for Russia to keep the Central Asian republics as close allies is to be strong economically, military and politically. Not because Russia should subsidize them, but because they do not perceive Russia as a failed nation as in the nineties..
    Still it would not hurt to have the plant in Tashkent producing useful aircraft components. Of course it must not be the sole supplier of any component, and there should always be also a russian source and supply chain for every component but now that Russia need to increase their aircraft production, why not have an alternative source there?

    Furthermore they could organise there a second assembly location  for some transport aircrafts bought by Uzbekistan (and othe Stans). Of course the vast majority of the components would be sourced from Russia...
    I have to agree with Gazputin. As long as their workers make money in Russia, everything will be ok. Add to that some military donations and weapon purchases with low price, and that should be enough.
    Chkalov plant doesn't exist anymore. That's it. Now, it produces a mix of railway equipment, consumer equipment and similar. Some basic parts for planes. Thing is that they are looking for outsider to invest in plane production. That should be left as possibility, only after they max out capacities in Russia. And, even then, only for basic components.
    It is time for Russia to start thinking about Russia first.
    P.S. I am not even sure, if they are capable of finding enough workers for plane production, since many engineers and designers during SU times had to be brought from other republics.

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    Gazputin


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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 31 Empty Stans and Manufacturing

    Post  Gazputin Tue May 03, 2022 10:48 pm

    you don't have to be Einstein to see that Kazakhstan is the next Ukraine
    Gorbachov left 5 mil Russians outside Russia's borders in Kazakhstan
    up near the Russian border .... best farming land apparently and probably where all the manufacturing is based

    (Ukraine is also thanks to Gorbachov leaving 10-15 mil Russians there ....
    and they are also on the best land and all the best manufacturing is there too in the Donbass region ...
    hence the war Ukraine is cactus without the East)

    I wouldn't be putting anything in Kazakhstan
    a war there is inevitable .... courtesy of the CIA .... but will last about 5 days ....

    Probably a better strategy would be to get India to manufacture Rus civil planes
    and let them then be the distributor of parts into Central Asia and SE Asia

    maybe use Egypt the same way for Africa
    and Argentina ? for South America
    use "gateway" countries as middlemen .... for world regions

    Russia simply has too much on its plate developing its own country in the East to me
    to get too directly involved elsewhere




    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed May 04, 2022 12:14 am

    best way to keep the Stans "loyal" is to keep the Ruble strong so they send lots of "guest workers" to Russia to work in construction and factories there.

    The best way to keep the Stans loyal is to treat them with respect and don't screw them over... no handouts but no sanctions or pressure to do things they don't want to do either.

    Just normal free and open trade where both sides profit and develop and grow.

    Transport aviation is a mess because its previous centre of excellence during Soviet times was Ukraine
    if you look at all the aviation areas it is the problem

    Transport and civil aviation are a mess because of a lack of Russian engines.

    the other one you can see is small helicopter and aircraft and their engines
    ditto light aviation it was centred in Czech/Poland .... and Ukraine did their engines too

    Which is all in the process of being remedied... engines are not quick and easy otherwise everyone would be making their own.

    turboprops in general are not a great strength of Russia
    and big high bypass engines ...

    Not a huge problem really... they have the worlds fastest propeller driven aircraft and the Il-112 and Il-114 seem to be coming along... and the LMS-901 and their version of the Let 610 too.

    Apart from those and the Let 410 what other turboprops do they even need?

    and drop any plans to do a modernised Tu-214 as it too similar to the MC-21

    They have a factory specifically making Tu-214s for the military so it makes sense to keep making them... with new suitable engines the difference in performance with them and the newer aircraft wont be enough to matter and it means all the military aircraft are the same base aircraft... and related to any Tu-330s they make, which versions of the MS-21 wont, and wont be available for a while now because all their planes they make will go to Russian airlines as a priority.

    In the mean time the Tu-204s and Tu-214s can also go to the airlines while they are replacing foreign types and when the foreign types are replaced the Tupolevs can be relegated to cargo roles while the MS-21s carry people... the Factories making Tu-204s and Tu-214s can then make planes for the military again... replacements for older types like the Il-20 and Il-22s etc, and also replacements for the An-12 together with the Il-276s.

    get some laser-like focus on 1x design

    So you completely stop production at the factory making Tu-204s and the factory making Tu-214s and they sit and do nothing while the MS-21 factory has a mental break down trying to be the only factory making planes for all the Russian airlines...

    and forget about synergies re Tu-214 and 330 ..... just get synergies via 1x body for both .... Tu-330 in 2x versions

    Forget about commonality?

    For what reason?

    ( that is what should have happened with the Il-114 and Il-112
    just 1x high wing design ... as a airliner and a transport plane )

    Don't you think the fact that they went forward with both types suggests your idea of focussing on one platform/one design is wrong?

    The Mi-28 would not exist yet it seems to be doing a good job along with the Ka-52... sometimes competing designs are different enough to both be useful.

    btw
    how does a Tu-330 with 2x PS-90s lift so much more than an Il-276 with 2x PS-90s ?
    it doesn't make sense to me ?

    Different versions of the PS-90 have different thrust ratings... the one for the Il-276 is about a 14-15 ton thrust engine, while the proposed models for the Tu-330 are over 18 tons thrust each with a MTOW of about 30 tons heavier.

    I would have expected something around 25 or 30 tons from the il 276, and not just 20, unless the design is completely unoptimised.

    The Il-276 was to replace the An-12 so the requirements are similar... 20 ton payload to 2,000km.... but then the fact that the models all have inflight refuelling probes there is a lot of flexibility in the flight performance potential.

    It is time for Russia to start thinking about Russia first

    Look at the US to see how that turns out...

    P.S. I am not even sure, if they are capable of finding enough workers for plane production, since many engineers and designers during SU times had to be brought from other republics.

    They could just start out with assembly... and work their way up.

    you don't have to be Einstein to see that Kazakhstan is the next Ukraine

    You don't have to think too long and hard to realise the CIA and west want every country to become the next Ukraine, but which countries are going to volunteer for that seeing what they are currently seeing.

    Belarus was supposed to be the next Ukraine and they screwed it up.

    Their tactics and methods are known and understood... it is unlikely they will be able to rinse and repeat too often without consequences...

    Honestly I am not Russian and not related to Russia at all and all this talk about Ukraine being critical to Russias future seems to just be bullshit... if anything they held them back and were a burden.

    Call it a gateway to europe all you like that just makes it the highway to hell as far as I am concerned because the west doesn't want a successful safe and prosperous Russia, they want its stuff and they want Russias out of the way so they can get their stuff...

    Russia losing western and northern Ukraine is fine in my book, it is the south and east that seem to be worth saving as independent regions trading and friendly with Russia... screw the rest... and the west... both have shown their true colours and this should not be forgotten nor forgiven.

    Cutting ties with Russia is helping Russia see its future is with the rest of the world... and when they realise what is happening the rest of the world will be grateful to have a serious alternative to the west moving forward because with the west most were just treading water while being fleeced by the west.

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    Post  Gazputin Wed May 04, 2022 12:29 am


    you are a piece of work I will give you that ....


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    Post  Broski Wed May 04, 2022 6:18 am

    Last I checked, Kazakhstan doesn't embrace nazi ideology like the Ukraine and doesn't have a problem with its large ethnic Russian minority at all. The biggest challenge they'll face in the coming decades will be in the form of Western sponsored color revolutions and Western sponsored ISIS/terror cells infiltrating the country, good thing they have their big brother to turn to.

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    Post  caveat emptor Wed May 04, 2022 6:44 am

    Gazputin wrote:
    you are a piece of work I will give you that ....


    He will just try to give an answer to everything, regardless of actual situation on the ground. I'm not even trying to answer anymore. Some basic knowledge of situation in ex-SU and understanding of underlying political and economic dynamics would help.
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    Post  caveat emptor Wed May 04, 2022 6:54 am

    Broski wrote:Last I checked, Kazakhstan doesn't embrace nazi ideology like the Ukraine and doesn't have a problem with its large ethnic Russian minority at all. The biggest challenge they'll face in the coming decades will be in the form of Western sponsored color revolutions and Western sponsored ISIS/terror cells infiltrating the country, good thing they have their big brother to turn to.
    Kazakhstan invested a lot of money in nation and identity building over the years. Many western NGOs did a lot of damage there. Hence the demands of recent revolution had some (not all) anti-Russian undertones. Northern Kazakhstan was never considered part of the country through history and has a majority Ru population. Nazarbayev was aware of that and  moved a capital to the north. 
    Turkey has played a significant part in "nation building", and Kaz is one of the founding members of Organization of Turkic states. I believe that it will be a battleground in coming years, as it has too much natural resources to be left as is.


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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed May 04, 2022 7:07 am

    The russian airline Utair starts again using Soviet Jak trijets due to the lack of Western planes and not enough more modern russian jets.

    The Jak 40 small regional jets (32 passengers) and the medium airliner Yak42 (120 passengers).

    https://www.flugrevue.de/zivil/jak-40-und-jak-42-russische-utair-setzt-wieder-auf-sowjet-trijets/

    Actually the yak40 was a very interesting plane and could be worth to do a modernisation or derivative (of course with modern engines).

    There was already a prototype twin-engine composite-wing derivative of the yak40, called STR-40DT proposed 6 years ago by the Siberian Research Institute of Aviation (SibNIA).
    It was endorsed, but not supported by Yakovlev.

    https://aviation21.ru/obytnyj-obrazec-celnokompozitnogo-samolyota-str-40dt-pokazhut-v-konce-goda/

    The prototype had 2 old American garret engines, but there is already the proposal of making a civilian version of the Ai222 engine of the Yak130 trainer (engine developed in Zaporozhye, but since 2014 manufactured in Russia from russian components).

    https://m.tvzvezda.ru/news/201605251815-rlf8.htm

    Director of SibNIA Vladimir Barsuk told the Zvezda channel  about his intention to create a composite aircraft with two AI-222-25 engines , the thrust of which exceeds the already old American Garrett AiResearch TFE731-5BR installed on the demonstrator. With a capacity of up to 30-40 seats, with a range of 5000 km.

    I do not know if there was any further work on this, but with the current situation it could be quite interesting, also to make a business jet version to replace foreign equivalents.

    I know that Russia is developing some passenger turboprops with a similar passenger payload, but I believe a nice small jet could be worth some efforts.

    Similar foreign equivalents are the embraer ERJ135 and 145 and the bombardier CRJ100/200.

    The Yak42 instead has already a successor, the MC21 (I would like it to be named yak242 at the moment of starting operation.

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    Post  Scorpius Wed May 04, 2022 7:52 am

    I'll put in my two cents.
    1. It is advisable to produce the MS-21 and Tu-214 in parallel due to the fact that the MS-21 can only be produced at one aircraft factory in the country, and the Tu-214 has TWO possible production sites. In addition, it makes sense to produce DIFFERENT sets of engines, since the PS-90 and PD-14 are produced on different lines, although within the same enterprise - UEC Perm Motors.
    2. The composite replacement of the Yak-40, with all the advertising, has a key drawback: it is composite. No one can answer now where to get composites for its production. At the moment, the problem with the composite wing of the MS-21 has not been completely solved, it is quite bold to declare another project in development that requires the creation of expensive composite production. And in the end we will get... just a composite Yak-40. Although in this case it makes sense to design an aircraft of this class from the very beginning, taking into account all modern requirements and using modern technical solutions. The main idea of SibNIA was the remotorization of the old Yak-40 in conservation, of which about 400 units are in a condition acceptable for modernization. But as far as I know, so far there have been no clients willing to purchase and operate such aircraft.

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    Post  lancelot Wed May 04, 2022 8:24 am

    Scorpius wrote:I'll put in my two cents.
    1. It is advisable to produce the MS-21 and Tu-214 in parallel due to the fact that the MS-21 can only be produced at one aircraft factory in the country, and the Tu-214 has TWO possible production sites. In addition, it makes sense to produce DIFFERENT sets of engines, since the PS-90 and PD-14 are produced on different lines, although within the same enterprise - UEC Perm Motors.
    2. The composite replacement of the Yak-40, with all the advertising, has a key drawback: it is composite. No one can answer now where to get composites for its production. At the moment, the problem with the composite wing of the MS-21 has not been completely solved, it is quite bold to declare another project in development that requires the creation of expensive composite production. And in the end we will get... just a composite Yak-40. Although in this case it makes sense to design an aircraft of this class from the very beginning, taking into account all modern requirements and using modern technical solutions. The main idea of SibNIA was the remotorization of the old Yak-40 in conservation, of which about 400 units are in a condition acceptable for modernization. But as far as I know, so far there have been no clients willing to purchase and operate such aircraft.
    I do not see how that will be a problem to be honest. The MS-21 production was already being planned to be massively ramped up over the next 5 years. So I doubt there are no plans for the expansion of the existing facilities. From what I understand everything has already been considered. If anything lack of aircraft assembly facilities does not seem to be the main issue to me.

    As for the PS-90 and PD-14, they are being produced in different lines, but from what I understand in the same facilities. The main issue is the PD-14 is not a direct replacement for the PS-90. Not enough power level. That would be the PD-14M which is still not available yet. The PD-14M engine powered MC-21 variant i.e. MC-21-400, which would replace the Tu-214 eventually, has not even been funded yet. And even if you had the PD-14M available, it is simply not practical to replace all PS-90 manufactured aircraft with in the short term. In particular you will have the Il-76-90M program which will be a major customer for the PS-90 and replacing those engines with PD-14M would require another redesign which I doubt will happen in the short term if ever.

    While the sanctions might make expanding production of composites for the lighter aircraft more difficult, from what I understand most of the tooling they use was imported from Europe, existing production should be enough for a limited amount of small aircraft if the government decided to push for that. Eventually alternative machine tool suppliers in either Russia or China should become available, and composite production will be expanded I think.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  kvs Wed May 04, 2022 8:31 am

    It would be nice to see some sort of reference for the composite production limitations. I have not seen any information
    that import substitution is not at 100%. The MS-21 wings using Russian composites have been tested and certified. If
    there was a supply bottleneck I would have seen at least one article on it.

    A lot of the Russian media information space is polluted with throwaway comments by "experts" and officials. They have no
    sense of balance and engage in polemics to push some agenda or other. The sky is always falling in Russia.

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    Post  Scorpius Wed May 04, 2022 8:50 am

    kvs wrote:It would be nice to see some sort of reference for the composite production limitations.   I have not seen any information
    that import substitution is not at 100%.   The MS-21 wings using Russian composites have been tested and certified.   If
    there was a supply bottleneck I would have seen at least one article on it.  

    A lot of the Russian media information space is polluted with throwaway comments by "experts" and officials.   They have no
    sense of balance and engage in polemics to push some agenda or other.   The sky is always falling in Russia.  

    It is unlikely that I will be able to cite any specific article, since my information has specialists associated with the aviation industry in Russia as a source. Let's just say there are only a couple of enterprises in Russia that are able to make aviation composite materials, and all of them are now fully loaded. If you want to bring ANOTHER composite aircraft to the market, you need to build a separate enterprise that will specialize in creating composite structures for this aircraft.
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    Post  Scorpius Wed May 04, 2022 8:56 am

    lancelot wrote:
    The MS-21 production was already being planned to be massively ramped up over the next 5 years.

    They plan to reach a production rate of 76 aircraft per year in five years. And this is the maximum that the MS-21 assembly production lines are designed for. And it is not yet guaranteed that this promise will be fulfilled 100%. In general, if we take absolute figures, the plans are to produce 110 MS-21 aircraft by 2028. And now compare this with production plans to produce 70 Tu-214 aircraft by 2030.
    These are comparable figures. And for sure 70 aircraft of this class will not be superfluous for Russia.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  GarryB Thu May 05, 2022 5:24 am

    you are a piece of work I will give you that ....

    I am just posting my opinion.... just like you can do.

    If you want to discuss that is OK, if you don't that is fine too.

    Last I checked, Kazakhstan doesn't embrace nazi ideology like the Ukraine and doesn't have a problem with its large ethnic Russian minority at all.

    The west would love Russia to treat all its former Soviet Neighbours as if they are Ukraine and isolate themselves from the world... we have already beaten you so give up and don't even try.

    Problem there is that if Russia gives up on the west it has to engage the rest of the world which includes its non HATO neighbours for some level of trade.

    Countries that outright reject them of course they can ignore, but that is no reason to add countries to the ignore list without trying.

    Relations with Turkey are not that bad and in fact are better than with any EU country because EU policy is Americas policy, while Turkey can follow its own interests... some of which are compatible with Russias interests so there is scope to work together for mutual benefit.

    The biggest challenge they'll face in the coming decades will be in the form of Western sponsored color revolutions and Western sponsored ISIS/terror cells infiltrating the country, good thing they have their big brother to turn to

    Lots of countries around the world will want help in that regard... Americas tentacles reach everywhere...

    He will just try to give an answer to everything, regardless of actual situation on the ground.

    I am giving my opinion... if you have a factory making Tu-204s and another factory making Tu-214 which are both operational and making planes already and you have a sudden shortage of airliners for your civilian airlines then it would be stupid not to engage all your aircraft making factories of different aircraft types to start making planes... the fact that they are different is good because if tey were all the same they would struggle to make enough engines for them.

    In this case different planes and different engines so boosting production of all types would be a good short term solution.

    Looking to the future however going for a mix of Super jets and MS-21s as being the brand new planes with the best economic performance figures then once the emergency has passed and enough aircraft are in service the factories making these two can continue and gradually replace other types pressed into use for transporting people which can be repurposed to cargo roles.

    The Tu-214 is being used in various roles within the Russian military which would be something it could also return to, while the Tu-204 factory could be modified to make Tu-330 transports which would also be very useful, so you have Tu-214s replacing older airliner types in the Russian military... various Elint and other types, as well as MPAs like the Il-38 need replacing soon.

    The Tu-330s would be a good plane to fit between the Il-276 and the Il-476s while not being a totally unique design as Tu-214s and Tu-204s will be also used in service with the Russian military... with new engines their efficiency should be rather good.

    Once the Superjet and MS-21 have replaced all the western aircraft  in Russian airlines they can start to offer them to airlines around the world too including building support centres.

    Turkey has played a significant part in "nation building", and Kaz is one of the founding members of Organization of Turkic states. I believe that it will be a battleground in coming years, as it has too much natural resources to be left as is.

    And so you think Russia refusing to build anything there will help turn them around and make them friendly to Russia, or have you already written them off... US bio weapons labs and nazis and nukes for them...

    The main idea of SibNIA was the remotorization of the old Yak-40 in conservation, of which about 400 units are in a condition acceptable for modernization. But as far as I know, so far there have been no clients willing to purchase and operate such aircraft.

    Maybe they should just dial back their ambition and just reengine them and upgrade the avionics with Russian components and materials and leave the composite wing to a later upgrade.

    If anything lack of aircraft assembly facilities does not seem to be the main issue to me.

    Good, they should get them all producing even if some only make parts for others to complete their planes on time.

    The MS-21 wings using Russian composites have been tested and certified. If
    there was a supply bottleneck I would have seen at least one article on it.

    Wasn't there an article in the new technology section that mentioned composite production in Russia is taking off and is becoming massive?

    If you want to bring ANOTHER composite aircraft to the market, you need to build a separate enterprise that will specialize in creating composite structures for this aircraft.

    These current sanctions will boost demand for aircraft and the amount and quantity of composite material demand is only going to increase over time anyway... whether it is for aircraft or ships or drones... or electric vehicles.

    This is very good for Russian aircraft production, but they need to make sure they don't get their plans wrong with serious shortages of factories or too many factories with nothing to do.

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    Post  caveat emptor Thu May 05, 2022 5:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Turkey has played a significant part in "nation building", and Kaz is one of the founding members of Organization of Turkic states. I believe that it will be a battleground in coming years, as it has too much natural resources to be left as is.

    And so you think Russia refusing to build anything there will help turn them around and make them friendly to Russia, or have you already written them off... US bio weapons labs and nazis and nukes for them...
    Ok, i see that there was a misunderstanding. 
    First thing first. Ex-Chkalov plant is in Tashkent, Uzbekistan not in Kazakhstan. Two different countries. Kazakhstan is to the north. There's no aircraft factory in Kaz. 
    As far as Kazakhstan i tried to explain nuances regarding their position with Russia and Russian minority. 
    Kazakhstan has a strategic, world largest mines of uranium, situated in north east of the country. This is also a region they've been working hard to populate with rural Kazakhs as Russians were majority there. That region, along with ones to the north and north west were not supposed to even be a part of Kazakhstan as Russian population constituted majority. There were  investments in Kazakhstan made by Russian SOE and private companies, but, for example, they never allowed Rosatom to purchase a part of Kazakatomprom.


    Last edited by caveat emptor on Thu May 05, 2022 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  GarryB Thu May 05, 2022 7:59 pm

    There were investments in Kazakhstan made by Russian SOE and private companies, but, for example, they never allowed Rosatom to purchase a part of Kazakatomprom.

    After seeing what the US did to Russia in the 1990s with "investment" better known as money laundering and asset stripping, I could understand why they would not want any foreign country owning significant bits of their golden goose.

    Russia is essentially cutting itself off from the west, they can't afford to do the same with every country... this is not about converting every country into Russias slave like the US tries to do... most countries in the rest of the world will see that coming and resist... their rich will fold of course for the promise of a little more money but the rest of the population will generally realise they are getting screwed... of course whether they can do anything about it or not is another matter.

    Russia needs to treat every trade partner that is open to free and fair trade as an equal partner and make sure that the people at both ends of the deal make good profits and are able to invest that money to develop and grow and do better.

    Ethical coffee in the west is where the farmers who grow the beans get a fairer percentage of the profits for their input into the product than they were getting before.

    Instead of a few cents they are getting rather more money... of course whether that goes to the natives on the farms doing all the manual work, or the rich usually white ex colonial land owner they work for is another matter entirely.

    The claim in the west is that there is trickle down where rich people have to spend money and so it helps the local economy so everyone benefits... which is of course bullshit because rich people are tighter than your average person and like to spend thousands of dollars on themselves but wont spare a dollar to help someone in need. (obviously not all are but you don't get to be a billionaire by giving away all your money).

    Russia needs to avoid the western culture of money is the goal of business... providing good products to customers or services to customers should be the goal of the company and looking after your employees should be a priority because they are the interface between your customers and your services and products... yet super rich people like Beezos will pay his workers minimum wage while making record profits...

    This is off topic... but for a healthy future Russia needs to build service centres around the world to support their aircraft, they can do it so it provides jobs and training for locals, but the core work and secrets are kept by the Russian companies that own the service centres if there are political problems.

    Russia had its eyes open when the US did what it did in the Ukraine and they will now be aware of the tactics and the signs and can react better in other countries.

    The alternative is self isolation which is exactly the goal the US is trying to achieve.

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    Post  caveat emptor Thu May 05, 2022 9:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    There were  investments in Kazakhstan made by Russian SOE and private companies, but, for example, they never allowed Rosatom to purchase a part of Kazakatomprom.

    After seeing what the US did to Russia in the 1990s with "investment" better known as money laundering and asset stripping, I could understand why they would not want any foreign country owning significant bits of their golden goose.

    Russia is essentially cutting itself off from the west, they can't afford to do the same with every country... this is not about converting every country into Russias slave like the US tries to do... most countries in the rest of the world will see that coming and resist... their rich will fold of course for the promise of a little more money but the rest of the population will generally realise they are getting screwed... of course whether they can do anything about it or not is another matter.
    You're missing the point. This is not about economy. If anything, Russian companies had found a lot of red tape for investing in the country during Nazarbayevs reign. We will see if anything will change with Tokayev. It should, as Russians, basically, saved his bacon.
    Two biggest oil fields, Tengiz and Kashagan, were developed by western companies. Russians never got a chance to work there. You can check that easily. 
    Nazarbayev, during his reign, tried to wean the country as far as possible from Russia, because country had very big Russian diaspora. He moved capital from Alma Ata (now Almaty) to newly built Astana in order to change demographics of the north Kazakhstan, which was heavily Russian. While doing that, he was heavily promoting Turkic identity with the help of Turkey, of course. 
    Growing nationalism in Kazakhstan is a problem, and countries even had a period of pretty cold relationship in 2013. Russian minority is being marginalized since independence.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 31 Empty Restoration of Tu-214s x8

    Post  Gazputin Fri May 06, 2022 7:42 pm


    "According to the Aviation Explorer website, it is planned to restore eight Tu-214 aircraft, two Il-96 and one An-124. Financing will be carried out in the form of a property contribution to Rostec for the purpose of a subsequent contribution to the capital of the UAC, while the total amount of allocated funds is not specified. Part of the funds will be spent on research and development work on the modernization of systems and assemblies of Tu-214 aircraft. This will allow approving changes to the aircraft type certificate, which will make it possible to transfer the machines into operation with domestic systems and equipment in 2024."

    https://www.aviaport.ru/digest/2022/05/06/717919.html

    as is my habit I cross-checked info .... Planespotters

    https://www.planespotters.net/production-list/Tupolev/Tu-214
    https://www.planespotters.net/production-list/Ilyushin/Il-96

    and there are 9x Tu-214s in storage .... maybe 1x is not worth restoring ? nfi
    and 2x Il-96-400s

    so it does seem that the "Tu-214 production" in 2023 .... will be restoring these 8x Tu-214s
    before they start on new airframes in 2024
    as you need time to get your bigger long leadtime items made engines - spars etc

    re your comments about me and others Garry

    note above I am looking at various sources of info
    and drawing a conclusion that seems to best fit from various sources of info .... not just 1

    I have no preconceived idea what is "best" ....
    in this case this looks like a pragmatic solution that makes best use of the resources available at the time
    from the evidence I have seen - it looks the best solution

    with you Garry it is the opposite

    you display a definite circular logic in most of your comments about other people's posts
    you have very strong pre-conceived ideas of what you think is the right answer
    and you go dredging up "evidence" backwards to support your pre-conceived conclusion - no matter how obscure the source or illogical

    re Tu-214 etc
    my position on all these subjects is always the same

    if you are going it alone ... and in effect de-globalise to a large extent ... which is what they are really doing

    then you have to concentrate your resources and avoid too many different aircraft and engines ... you need focus
    you only have so much capital to invest .... and engineers

    eg your comments about the Il-114 and Il-112 .... and the "proven" need for 2x designs is just nonsense
    the most popular turboprops in the world are high wing ATR, Dash-8 .... An-24
    as are best suited to less developed airports re engine ground clearance
    it would definitely have been in Russia's best interests to have 1x turboprop platform with a high wing
    ( if they had more time I am sure they would have gone that way - but they don't)

    same re your comments of the Tu-330 vs IL-276 lift capacity differences
    you claim the difference between them is that the Tu-330 has more powerful PS-90s than the other ?
    that's absurd ..... why not then put the more powerful engine on the Il-276 too ?

    re Tupolev
    I suggested that a better investment case for the Tu-330 could be made around the increasing use of fuel efficient XL diameter turbofan
    engines on domestic airliners
    and we may well see a switch to high wing airliners to bet fit these new engines

    and a good case could be developed for a dual use high wing design - 1x transport 1x airliner
    ie why slavishly follow what the "west" is doing ?

    what do you do ?
    .... go on about Tu-214 ELINTS or some other stuff .... that had nothing at all to do with what I said
    because what I said was something that you had never considered before ....

    you had already made up your mind what was best
    .... circular logic

    (btw - I would not be surprised in the least to see Boeing's 737 replacement - switch to a high wing design
    am I "sure" ... nope )













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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  GarryB Sat May 07, 2022 3:54 am

    You're missing the point. This is not about economy. If anything, Russian companies had found a lot of red tape for investing in the country during Nazarbayevs reign. We will see if anything will change with Tokayev. It should, as Russians, basically, saved his bacon.

    This thread is in the section of Russia and is about the civil aviation sector in Russia... in that context Russia has found itself with a massively under funded civilian aviation sector which extends into the military transport and and airliner based aircraft like Elint and jammer etc etc types.

    Being cut off from western types the Russian airlines need to get rid of the leased western types they operate and use the Russian types they were using and buy as many new Russian types that can be made available.

    The fact that the Tu-204 and Tu-214 are not super competitive with western types because EU airspace is closed to Russian airlines and Russian airspace is closed to EU airlines presumably too.

    Having not so efficient planes is not important for now.

    Over time the super jet and MS-21 production will catch up with demand so the less efficient types rushed into airline service can be relegated to cargo and other duties where they are better suited as more new planes are built to replace them.

    The performance of the Tupolevs could be enhanced with new engines too eventually to make them more profitable too... but the Russian military needs new aircraft too, and in quite a few areas, for which Tu-204s would be just fine, and some Tu-330 transports would be very very useful too.

    Scorpious seems to think there is plenty of unused production capacity in Russia and I fully agree they should attempt to get that working at capacity first before building any new factories anywhere.

    I would say the AN-124 factory should be converted to start making Il-106 prototypes ready for production when the engines can be delivered.

    I would say the factory that was making the AN-140s that they are not making any more could make those Let-610 modifications instead.

    And I think the Il-476 should be a popular aircraft world wide as a 60 ton payload aircraft it should be bought world wide in large numbers and if they eventually do make the Il-276 based on the same design but shorter and smaller wings and two of the same engines then the world potential market will be rather big too to replace the An-12s of the world.

    Production capacity for either of these two means you can vary production rates depending on need, but for a start I would think the An-12s really need to start to be retired so Il-276s should be a priority too and the Russian version of the Let-610 replacing old Antonovs would also be a priority too.

    Two biggest oil fields, Tengiz and Kashagan, were developed by western companies. Russians never got a chance to work there. You can check that easily.
    Nazarbayev, during his reign, tried to wean the country as far as possible from Russia, because country had very big Russian diaspora. He moved capital from Alma Ata (now Almaty) to newly built Astana in order to change demographics of the north Kazakhstan, which was heavily Russian. While doing that, he was heavily promoting Turkic identity with the help of Turkey, of course.
    Growing nationalism in Kazakhstan is a problem, and countries even had a period of pretty cold relationship in 2013. Russian minority is being marginalized since independence.

    Well with all that being the case then Russia needs to work with the new leader to make sure this BS is reversed... perhaps move the capital city back, or give in to the inevidable and split the country along ethnic lines via referendum....

    If the Russian minority was important in certain sectors of their society perhaps take measures to attract them back to Russia... maybe build a city inside Russia with all new housing and infrastructure and a few large companies/industries that generate lots of jobs for skilled labour and offer them a free house and good job and Russian citizenship to attract them back to Russia.

    Either way Kazakhstan is not going anywhere and building good trade relations with them makes sense for Russia.

    If they stepped in to help the current leader it suggests they are interested in keeping the place friendly, and saving a government from being overthrown is always a good thing for good will moving forward.

    I have no preconceived idea what is "best" ....
    in this case this looks like a pragmatic solution that makes best use of the resources available at the time
    from the evidence I have seen - it looks the best solution

    The source you provide says they will essentially complete the planes they have started but really that says nothing about the future of those factories... a contract to clear the existing airframes is a necessary first step to resuming and increasing production for new contracts with new customers... presumably the Russian airlines or perhaps UAC itself will make the planes and then lease them out to the Russian airlines that want them... it is all unknown.

    There has be a shift for the Russian civilian Aviation industry... previously most Russian airlines would only buy token Russian aircraft and a few other airlines internationally with bad relations with the west would buy Russian aircraft.... this lack of production and lack of orders makes their planes more expensive than they might be if they were producing in larger volumes for lots of customers.

    The conflict in the Ukraine has changed Russian relations with the west and now the Russian CAI are going to have to increase production volume and quality to meet the very different new needs of the Russian airlines and other international airlines unable to source western aircraft for whatever reason.

    At the same time the Russian military are rapidly approaching a phase where they have a large number of aircraft that they really need to replace quite urgently, which include former airliner types.

    you display a definite circular logic in most of your comments about other people's posts
    you have very strong pre-conceived ideas of what you think is the right answer

    I disagree. I am open to what others have to say... several knowledgable members have mentioned Russian civil aviation production capacity that is not being used... I started suggesting aircraft making factories in the stans to help boost production capacity but now I think Russian production capacity should be filled with orders first and factories outside Russia should perhaps focus on servicing and support.

    and you go dredging up "evidence" backwards to support your pre-conceived conclusion - no matter how obscure the source or illogical

    re Tu-214 etc
    my position on all these subjects is always the same

    if you are going it alone ... and in effect de-globalise to a large extent ... which is what they are really doing

    then you have to concentrate your resources and avoid too many different aircraft and engines ... you need focus
    you only have so much capital to invest .... and engineers

    Yes, you said that.... and the Germans agreed with you... why make Panzer 4 tanks which were adequate but not amazing when you could make Panthers and Tigers... but the obvious problem is that they stopped making Panzer IVs and focussed on Panzer Vs and the troops in the field got nothing becuase the panzer fours stopped comming and the Panthers still weren't quite right yet.

    My point is that if you have different things in production then just keep making them... stopping making Tu-204s and Tu-214s wont make any difference in how fast Super Jets and MS-21s can be made... the difference is that Russian airlines will be getting Super Jets and MS-21s but they wont be getting Tu-204s or Tu-214s which could fill gaps left by Boeings and Airbusses.

    They have production facilities for different engines right now... not making some planes that use different engines means the engine makers that make engines for the Tupolevs have no reason to make those engines so you have aircraft and engine making factories sitting idle... they already have those aircraft and those engines in service so stopping their production wont simplify anything they still need to be supported and maintained and spare parts need to be made.

    eg your comments about the Il-114 and Il-112 .... and the "proven" need for 2x designs is just nonsense
    the most popular turboprops in the world are high wing ATR, Dash-8 .... An-24

    Russia has a variety of locations and organisations that need aircraft... right now they need Russian aircraft because aircraft from the west are going to become hard to support and almost impossible to get spare parts for.

    The Il-112 and Il-114 are relatively new designs they need to replace a range of different Russian and Soviet and foreign types.

    The Il-112 has a high wing. The Il-114 has a low wing.

    Sounds like they have both options covered.

    The AN-24/5/6 they are replacing are in urgent need of replacing.

    it would definitely have been in Russia's best interests to have 1x turboprop platform with a high wing
    ( if they had more time I am sure they would have gone that way - but they don't)

    If that were so they could easily cancel the Il-114, but it seems they haven't.

    same re your comments of the Tu-330 vs IL-276 lift capacity differences
    you claim the difference between them is that the Tu-330 has more powerful PS-90s than the other ?
    that's absurd ..... why not then put the more powerful engine on the Il-276 too ?

    You do understand there are several versions of the PS-90 engine?

    The Il-276 uses the same engines as the Il-476, which is part of the commonality and it was designed to carry a 20 ton payload... that was the design specs...

    Putting rather more powerful engines would change the design... like putting a V8 engine in a Mini... how would making it loud and expensive to run improve the performance of what is supposed to be a shopping trolley?

    re Tupolev
    I suggested that a better investment case for the Tu-330 could be made around the increasing use of fuel efficient XL diameter turbofan
    engines on domestic airliners
    and we may well see a switch to high wing airliners to bet fit these new engines

    and a good case could be developed for a dual use high wing design - 1x transport 1x airliner
    ie why slavishly follow what the "west" is doing ?

    What is holding back most new Russian aircraft designs seems to be engines, their new PD series of modular scalable engines seems like a rather brilliant idea but it takes years to develop fundamentally new engine designs... and some of them are almost ready.

    But right now Russian airlines have leased western aircraft they can't really use so they need planes fast... stopping production of some aircraft that wont speed up the production of the new aircraft they are making is not helping the problem which is the need for lots of all Russian airliners and cargo planes.

    What I have been doing is looking at their current production capacity and also taking into account what their military is going to be needing over the next few years to expand production as much as possible without creating lots of white elephant factories that work for 5 years and then never work again because there are too many factories now.

    what do you do ?
    .... go on about Tu-214 ELINTS or some other stuff .... that had nothing at all to do with what I said
    because what I said was something that you had never considered before ....

    You do understand that when I post ideas and suggestions they are not all directed at you personally.

    The factors involved in what aircraft they produce is affected by Russias military needs too because traditionally the military sector of a country subsidises their civilian aviation industry through orders for aircraft when airlines are not biting as an extra income for the factories making the planes... the American air forces inflight refuelling fleet is a case in point.

    you had already made up your mind what was best
    .... circular logic

    Not circular at all... if you had said the factory making Tu-204s is being rejiggered to make MS-21s and the factory making Tu-214s was being rejiggered to make Super jets, then it would make no sense to talk about Tu-330s, and the Russian military would have to look to other airliner types to move forward with the various types they have to replace that they still operate.

    But instead it sounds like there is an An-140 or An-148 factory doing nothing and an AN-124 factory doing bugger all as well, and Il-476 factories that are not being funded properly or there are other problems slowing down production that need to be sorted because Russia could do with a lot of the Il-476s and also Il-276s which they are going to need urgently too very shortly.

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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 31 Empty Re: Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    Post  LMFS Wed May 11, 2022 5:18 am

    Russian engine for" Superjet " completed bench tests-UEC

    11.05.2022 10:43:34
    Moscow. May 11. INTERFAX-Bench tests of the first prototype PD-8 engine designed for an import-substituted version of the passenger SSJ-100 and the Be-200 amphibious aircraft have been completed, the United Engine Corporation (UEC, part of Rostec) reported.
    "UEC has successfully completed the program of bench tests of the first prototype PD-8 engine. The operability of the engine and its systems, the main parameters laid down in the terms of reference, and the correctness of design decisions were confirmed," the company's press service said on Wednesday.
    They noted that during ground testing, the necessary number of launches was carried out to obtain the main parameters of the engine in all operating modes - from "low gas" to "maximum take-off".
    "The completion of bench tests of the first PD-8 prototype is the most important stage in the development of a new Russian engine for civil aviation, primarily for the import-substituted Superjet 100 . Further tests of individual engine components will be carried out on autonomous installations. It is also planned to test the engine as part of the Il-76LL flying laboratory and a large complex of engineering calculations," said Vladimir Artyakov, first Deputy head of Rostec, quoted by the press service.
    The PD-8 twin-circuit turbofan engine, which will be used on the imported SSJ-NEW passenger plane and the Be-200 amphibious aircraft, is being created using the latest Russian materials and advanced technologies, including 3D printing, the UEC said.
    "Superjets" are currently equipped with Russian-French SaM146 engines produced by PowerJet (France's Safran Aircraft Engines and Russia's UEC-Saturn have 50% shares each). After the introduction of Western sanctions against the Russian Federation, PowerJet notified its Russian partners about the suspension of contractual obligations, an Interfax source reported. Deliveries of spare parts for the SaM146, technical support and repair of engines, including the return of previously repaired ones, and leasing them, were completely stopped.
    Earlier, the head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov said that certification of the import-substituted version of the Superjet with Russian PD-8 engines is expected in 2023.
    Be-200 amphibious aircraft were equipped with D-436 engines produced by the Ukrainian "Motor Sich", but Ukraine banned their delivery to Russia. Be-200s are delivered to the Russian Ministry of Emergency Situations and the Navy.

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=574350&lang=RU

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