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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:01 am

    lancelot wrote:The electronics in it are outdated. It has high maintenance needs and little in the way of self-diagnostics to speed maintenance which is why Aeroflot took them out of service. And you can't say it is just Aeroflot since the other operators did the same.

    The Tu-204SM was supposed to solve that but they only built a single prototype and at least the engines had lots of US content in them. Probably part of the reason why it never entered service. Something good came out of it though since the APU of the MC-21 seems to be based on the one in the Tu-204SM. I think the electronics in the Tu-204SM cockpit were Russian however but who knows.

    The entire avionics of it were Russian (people saw it as a huge failure as it was abandoned and hurt local tech production at the time. I remember talking about it here and the suitcases of money brought by western companies to prevent domestic development). It was also very advanced at the time too. If they can just replace engines with their own and modernize the electronics (is it that necessary?), then it's a solid plane.  I'm unsure of what their plans are. I think it would be better to just 100% localize SSJ-100 and MS-21 or seek out cooperation with BRICS to do joint work on it.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:04 am

    sepheronx wrote:The entire avionics of it were Russian. It was also very advanced at the time too. If they can just replace engines with their own and modernize the electronics (is it that necessary?), then it's a solid plane.  I'm unsure of what their plans are. I think it would be better to just 100% localize SSJ-100 and MS-21 or seek out cooperation with BRICS to do joint work on it.
    UAC basically seems to have knifed the Tu-204SM on purpose by starving it out of funds. The prototype only seems to have came out at the insistence of the central government and the designers at Tupolev. I think the whole point by UAC was focusing resources on MC-21 to get it to come out sooner but we know how well that went.

    Tu-204SM cockpit. At least the symbology and controls etc look totally Russian and nothing Western about it.
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 35 Image16
    Notice how increased automation means the 3rd crew member, the flight engineer, is no longer necessary. It also has large LCD screens for time period.

    Article about the prototype and its characteristics and development.
    https://www.ruaviation.com/docs/2/2014/4/21/81/

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:09 am

    lancelot wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:The entire avionics of it were Russian. It was also very advanced at the time too. If they can just replace engines with their own and modernize the electronics (is it that necessary?), then it's a solid plane.  I'm unsure of what their plans are. I think it would be better to just 100% localize SSJ-100 and MS-21 or seek out cooperation with BRICS to do joint work on it.
    UAC basically seems to have knifed the Tu-204SM on purpose by starving it out of funds. The prototype only seems to have came out at the insistence of the central government and the designers at Tupolev. I think the whole point by UAC was focusing resources on MC-21 to get it to come out sooner but we know how well that went.

    The whole Tu-204 lineage was dead thanks to the 90's. Tupovlev was aiming to try and get more contracts with Tu-204sm amd 214. I believe this was before UAC was created (I do seem to recall talks of it back when that Armenian guy was head of Sukhoi).

    I honestly think dropping it in favor of MC-21 wasn't best idea. They had a working plane. They could have looked for other suppliers or worked with others on the engines instead of funding a whole new plane.  They could than have looked at modernization of more composite materials and what not (like how uac is looking to create a whole composite Yak-40 test bed).

    There was a real lack of streamlining projects and commitment to one in the recent past.

    That will obviously change now. But it just means Russia will have to fly older planes till they can get new ones made en mass.

    As for dashboard shown at Maks airshow, I believe tupovlev was attempting to get sales of the jet, especially to Cuba, Iran and Libya of the past.  So using English may made sense as an overall sense. Or they lied about all Russian avionics.  Either or, it's all in the past and they should have worked on it. They did push to meet certain standards which I dunno if they would have met without using Western tech. Then again, they were selling the jet to sanctioned country(s)

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    Post  Backman Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:44 am

    lancelot wrote:The electronics in Tu-214 are outdated. .

    Yes. That's why I said the airframe. The airframe is less dated than today's 737's.

    Love the snow mobile yokes
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:09 am

    The current situation is a result of wanting to build planes but also wanting to build competitive planes that could be used internationally.

    The Tu-204 is OK, and would be better with all Russian engines, but the west really didn't start cutting Russia off from their avionics and equipment till 2014, and relations with the Ukraine didn't really get sour until then so not wasting money on old planes like the Tu-204 and focusing on brand new state of the art MS-21 and Superjets made sense...

    Think of it in terms of the T-72 tank and the T-90 tank... the two programmes they ran were upgrades for the T-72 to make it as good and as capable as possible without spending too much money on it, while the T-90AM project was essentially to try to fix everything they could without a from scratch design... which was the T-14.

    The problem was that in this case the Tu-204 was not mass produced in enormous numbers, so with making its replacements in the MS-21 and Superjet it didn't make sense to make a lot of Tu-204s because there simply was no huge demand for them... only countries barred from buying western types.

    With the loss of western airlines from Russian airspace and western aircraft are now worthless and will eventually be returned anyway production of the Tu-204 and Tu-214 makes sense because they are good enough and with new Russian engines and new Russian avionics they will actually be good enough if not better than western options, which should be good for export too.

    They have factories that make these planes and even the worst case scenerio is that the Russian military could buy some from the airlines as more new MS-21s and Superjets become available to replace them... they will need cargo planes as well for which they would likely be good enough anyway too.

    This stuff talks about civilian aircraft needs which is important, but the Russian military also has needs and lots of obsolete planes they will be in the process of retiring so lots of those Baikals and the Russianised L-410 and L-610s will be made in large numbers to replace their An-2s as well as larger aircraft that also need extensive replacement models.

    Some aircraft are going to need more than one aircraft to replace them and that is fine... the An-2 has two planes to replace it and I think the An-12 should too... perhaps a turboprop version of the Tu-330 for the VDV to drop troops and equipment... and at the other end the Il-106 and the Slon to replace the An-124.

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    Post  rigoletto Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:14 pm

    Russia Announces $14.5bn Domestic Airline Boost

    Deputy PM Yuri Borisov announced a $14.5bn investment plan for the Russian
    domestic airline industry to boost the share of domestically-manufactured aircraft
    by 2030 to 81%.

    Around 1,000 new aircraft , including the medium-haul MS-21 and the Soviet-designed
    Tu-214, are due to be delivered to Russian airlines by the end of the decade.

    [RT Telegram]

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:46 pm

    https://aviation21.ru/rossiya-mozhet-vyjti-iz-sovmestnogo-s-kitaem-proekta-shfdms-cr929/


    Russia may withdraw from the joint project with China ShFDMS CR929
    06/30/2022, 12:48  141

    Russia is not satisfied with the development of the CR929 wide-body long-range aircraft jointly with China, and its share in the project is declining. About it informed Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov at the plenary session of the Engineers of the Future forum. He refused to predict the future of this liner.

    “We are working with China on this project, it is not going in the direction that suits us,” the Deputy Prime Minister said.

    According to him, as China becomes an industrial giant, China is less and less interested in the services of Russian engineers. On the Chinese side, there are more needs for this liner than for the UAC.

    “Our participation is decreasing and decreasing. I don’t want to predict the future of this project – whether we will leave it or not, but for now it is in fact going on,” Borisov said.

    The project to create a Russian-Chinese wide-body long-haul airliner has been implemented since 2014. The aircraft is being developed by a joint venture between the United Aircraft Corporation and Shanghai-based Chinese COMAC - CRAIC. The Russian side is responsible for the wing panels, center section and wing mechanization, the Chinese side is responsible for the fuselage, fairing, horizontal and vertical tail.


    Friction in the development team became known in September 2020, when the Asia Times reported that the project was stopped, and serious conflicts interfere with the normal work of Russian and Chinese engineers. The publication claimed that Russia was not going to transfer key technologies to the Celestial Empire and insisted on using the promising PD-35 engine as a power plant.

    However, later both sides confirmed their interest in a joint project several times, it was reported about the purge of the aircraft wing at TsAGI and the start of manufacturing the first prototype in Shanghai. The sanctions imposed against Russian civil aviation with a ban on the supply of any Western equipment cast doubt on the feasibility of further work, due to the fact that the Russian side, apparently, failed to convince the Chinese of the need to develop aircraft systems and engines independently without the participation of Western partners .

    The prospect for the next 6-7 years is developing in such a way that if now foreign suppliers can still freely supply components for this project, but when the aircraft is ready for the start of mass production and commercial operation, deliveries will be prohibited. China, given its situation with Taiwan, just as now Russia may fall under sanctions, and the CR929 may be in a situation much worse than the Russian MS-21 or Superjet 100 is now. Enormous funds will be spent on the joint aircraft project, which will simply be thrown away to the wind.

    Having experience of partnership with Euro-American suppliers, the Russian side intends to avoid such a scenario. This is exactly what the Minister of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation Denis Manturov spoke about at SPIEF-2022.

    “The CR929 process is underway. But taking into account the new inputs, according to the restrictions that exist today in terms of cooperation, which was built by Chinese partners with the involvement of Western manufacturers, this is now impossible, so you will have to spend time restructuring approaches using only Russian and Chinese manufacturers,” Manturov said. . He added that the reconfiguration of suppliers will be completed within this year.


    The statement of the relevant vice-premier at the "Engineers of the Future" forum may indicate that so far the Chinese partners have not been convinced of the error of their chosen course in the choice of suppliers. This may be due to the fact that the PRC sees its main goal in the CR929 project as obtaining key technologies from Russia and is ready to donate several billion dollars in order to achieve the task. Those. in China, they admit that the costs of a possible collapse of the project will be acceptable and will be a payment for the competencies that can be obtained from Russian engineers and scientists.

    This approach cannot suit our country, so it can be assumed that by the end of 2022 Russia will withdraw from the CR929 project, and the main emphasis will be on the development of the PD-35 engine and remotorization for two engines of the Il-96-400 aircraft.

    Even if Russia withdraws from this partnership it will not be too much of a problem. Russia could still act as an external supplier for engines or other internal systems if China wants. It is developing them anyway for its own aviation industry.

    China is not able to produce all the internal systems on its own. It can only act as cheaper supplier for some of the minor parts.

    The aircraft will have probably a higher foreign contents than the original SSJ100.


    Furthermore the CR929  aircraft will be fully assembled in China while the twin engine derivative of the il96 will be assembled in Russia (Voronezh)

    At the end this aircraft will have almost the same lenght and capacity as the il-96-400M. I am sure that new wings and some modernisations and improvement could also reduce the mass of the new Ilyushin widebody.

    Airbus did a modernisation of the A330 with new engines and Boeing did the same with the Boeing 777X. And they are of the same generation of the Il96.

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    Post  Backman Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:07 am

    ^Pretty big news. I am not surprised. China is greedy. They want to do it all themselves. You can tell even by the name that they wanted as little of it Russian as possible.

    Russia should just leave the program for now. Just wait for a Republican congress/govt to come in and sanction the Chinese aviation industry down to size. China will probably have to divest itself of all the aviation companies that it has its hands in the the US. It has a lot. And it wont get any engines for indigenous planes. This will force China to cooperate in good faith with Russian aviation.

    The 929 is all composite I believe, which is questionable economically. The fuel savings does not pencil over the life of the fuselage. The best happy medium is composite wings like the MC-21.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:11 am

    And this is why I made it very clear Russia cannot just rely on China for semiconductors and the like.

    Russia should indeed make Il-96 modernized with some composites and newer engines and call it a day.  Make it twin engine and only 2 pilots.  I imagine they will achieve it since they can produce most of what they need for it.

    Only cooperate with China when they want to. Otherwise do not seek them out.

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    Post  Backman Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:33 am

    I think China has a superiority complex and prestige issue with Russia on aviation. They think they are too proud to be using aircraft from yesterdays superpower.

    Which is fine in a way. But where I have a huge problem with it is how badly they grovel to their recent colonial overlords at the same time. They'd rather use British engines than be seen using Russian ones. Even while they are in hybrid war with the Anglo powers.

    Iran is the same way. This pettiness is why the Russian aviation industry hasn't taken off yet.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:09 am

    Backman wrote:I think China has a superiority complex and prestige issue with Russia on aviation. They think they are too proud to be using aircraft from yesterdays superpower.

    Which is fine in a way. But where I have a huge problem with it is how badly they grovel to their recent colonial overlords at the same time. They'd rather use British engines than be seen using Russian ones. Even while they are in hybrid war with the Anglo powers.

    Iran is the same way. This pettiness is why the Russian aviation industry hasn't taken off yet.

    Russian aviation can work for Russian needs.  Who cares about the rest?  And civil jets is still not something Russia is exactly big at still.  You need to understand Russia threw its own civil aviation industry into the garbage for western planes.  So why would China and Iran be interested in buying Russian jets when Russian airliners didn't buy Russian jets?

    It isn't Russia cannot build great civil jets, because they can.  But it is because Russian industry and marketing sucked in pushing their product, or outright corruption in the case of Aeroflot.  If Russia instead of buying Boeing and Airbus, instead kept up buying Tupovlev and Ilyushin, then they would have jets they can easily sell to China and Iran.  You see, both parties are interested in Russian fighter jets.  Same with India, same with plenty of nations.  But why are they not interested in Russian civil jets?

    Give it time, when SSJ-100, MS-21 and Il-96 become the norm, guarantee others will start buying.  Russia will just have to keep up in modernizing and building new.  Il-96 still has a lot to go for and it will take time to modernize its engines.

    As for China wanting what they want, well if Russia decided to say they can sell the parts to China that China needs for the jet and that is that, then I bet you China would go for it.  But it was a JV work where China wanted to use western parts.  If you read it clearly, they state that the major issue is indeed the fact that parts from the west are being used and the project will succumb to sanctions.  But earlier, China wanted to make it entirely their own and hoped that they could get Russian expertise and know how with a single purchase and then push out the Russian engineers.  This is a typical Chinese kind of move.  Hence why no one trusts China's business or industry - they are known for copying and or trying to push out others after stealing their tech. Who else does this?  Let me give you a hint, its south of me.

    Russia is better off actually instead of working with China on a widebody, is actually to work with India on a widebody.  And if India backs out because of sanctions (nations are typical of this.  Political wise they are quick to defend each other and or back up Russia, but economical and business they too have trouble dealing with Russia cause they are scared of the west), then seek out other players like Iran. Russia wanted to sell to Iran.  Russia is incapable of doing proper business negotiations.  Instead, the incentive should have been to work with Iran on a regional jet and help it by localizing some production of parts.  Yes, it would take a while but honestly, its the best move.  Otherwise, Russia will sell only some civil jets to some sanctioned nations and thats about the extent of it.  Military jets are a whole different matter.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:30 am

    ^Pretty big news. I am not surprised. China is greedy. They want to do it all themselves. You can tell even by the name that they wanted as little of it Russian as possible.

    I don't think that is fair.

    It was known from the start that China was going to be a major buyer of the product and the Russians not so much and in that context that article basically lays out that the Russians are worried about western content that might continue right up to the 5 to 7 years time period when they are ready to produce the plane at which time the western so called partners could be forced by their governments to not supply their contributions to the design which might make the whole project non viable.

    It also suggests the Chinese are aware of that but are currently learning a lot from Russian and western engineers on building modern civil airliners so they don't care if the whole thing goes tits up... which suggests they will either spend the money and fill in the gaps created by the western companies leaving the project either with Chinese or Russian alternatives, or they will accept that the whole aircraft design is kaput and start a new all Chinese model with the experience they have accumulated... possibly with Russian assistance because they know they can rely on Russia.

    This suggests that while the Chinese want the aircraft, they also want the skills and capacity to make their own aircraft and are prepared to spend money to gain those skills and experience.

    Quite reasonable and certainly something that Russia does as well... they were behind in thermals and they spent money and worked at it and now they make good thermals too.

    What I think the Russians should do is scale down their involvement in the new plane and focus on the PD-35 engines and the Il-96M improvements and use that for their own market. When the western companies abandon the Chinese plane then Russian companies can offer to fill the gaps again, but it will of course essentially be a Chinese plane with Russian cooperation to get it flying again.

    China gets its experience and its planes, western companies lose more income, and Russia gets more work... you could probably offer to sell engines to them in replacement for the western engines they want to use... when those western engines are no longer available.

    Only cooperate with China when they want to. Otherwise do not seek them out.

    There are lots of areas for Russia and China to cooperate and work together on, but this plane seems to be more for China than for Russia, so I think continuing to work on the plane makes some sense but it is a Chinese aircraft with Russian bits, which is fine... the vast majority would be going to the Chinese market.

    Russia can get some work and experience and produce some parts and eventually replacement parts for those denied by the western companies with they are forced to quit.

    Russia would be better off perfecting the Il-96M with new engines and avionics and systems... it is a long range aircraft so having a tiny crew doesn't really make much sense to me... having a few extra crewmen means you can have people who can speak languages in the cockpit which can be useful too.

    Have read that aircraft with larger crews often have advantages at airports because the extra bodies means they can get through checklists faster and make takeoff positions aircraft with only two crew might miss.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:38 am

    This pettiness is why the Russian aviation industry hasn't taken off yet.

    Russian civil aviation has not taken off yet for the same reason that before EU food imports to Russia were sanctioned the market was supplied and competition was heavy so there was no need for Russian planes except patriotism.

    But just like the Russian sanctions on EU food imports, the western sanctions on Russian airlines means they not only have a market but they have an opportunity along with a lot of government investment to develop and grow and get back a market share they can survive on and actually make good money on.

    Like the food industry they will be exporting to the world soon enough...

    And as I mentioned the Russian military has a lot of obsolete transport types that need to be replaced and former civilian airliner based aircraft that also need to be replaced which is another huge opportunity for Russian aircraft makers.

    It was pro Ukraine factions that killed the Tu-330 because they wanted the An-70 to be built... well that faction is now gone and a gap is present.

    Equally medium sized and small AWACS types, smaller inflight refuelling platforms now that most Russian tactical fighters have inflight refuelling probes it makes sense to add some inflight refuelling planes, and of course intel aircraft and other types that are long in the tooth could be replaced with in production types or types based on their design.

    This is fantastic for aircraft makers in Russia because demand and money is there and the competition has banned themselves from the market...

    Make hay while the sun shines.

    I think China has a superiority complex and prestige issue with Russia on aviation.

    Everyone wants to make their own stuff... we talk about kiwi enginuity here in NZ, but in the US and Australia and UK and everywhere else they talk about local technology and knowhow with pride... I think perhaps you might be confusing pro China fanboys on the internet with those in power.

    They buy Russian products where their own products are lacking, but they have plenty of products they make that are not worse than anything produced in any other country and of that they should be proud.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  RTN Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:54 am

    GarryB wrote:China gets its experience and its planes, western companies lose more income, and Russia gets more work
    Bullshit! How does Russia get more work when China is stealing Russian tech left, right, center.
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    Post  Firebird Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:12 am

    https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/06/to-avoid-sanctions-china-and-russia-relaunch-the-cr929-without-western-components/

    different spin on it all here ie relaunch of CR929 with all Russian and Chinese components.

    Personally, I'd feel happiest of Russia concentrated on an all new Il-96.. but hopefully UAC know what they are doing with the Chinese as well.

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    Post  Firebird Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:19 am

    I think a lot can change over time with the relative importance of countries.

    China has 2 problems rearing up:-

    1)A greying population. In 20/25/30 yrs time, its population is heavily skewed towards the elderly. That was a big problem for Japan.. and will be a big one for China. At 1.5 bn people it can't just import people or even choose to increase birthrates.

    2)China has major ecological issues too. I don't mean the hippy/Thunberg/ecofascism imaginary type. I mean mass pollution of land and water etc. They will be seeking to export their manufacturing. Which had originally catapulted them forward. More problems going forward

    3)In contrast the Russian world or "Eurasian Union" world will hopefully have expanded and stabilised. And Russia's links with BRICS or similar will hopefully mean negotiations with American puppet states look like a distant memory.

    Ultimately Russia just needs to keep digging itself out of the trough of the early 1990s.
    That way, it can solidify its positions of one of the key powers of the emerging multipolar world.

    In the meantime, hopefully UAC can look at various partners eg Iran, Arabia, Eurasian Union, India, ASEAN, Africa etc who don't demand blood or the "crown jewels" of intellectual property just to be partners.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:28 pm

    Bullshit! How does Russia get more work when China is stealing Russian tech left, right, center.

    They are not stealing it, they are buying it.

    If you hire a computer person to come to your house to fix your computer and he says the computer was turned off at the wall... the next time the computer doesn't work you check the wall switch... that does not mean you are stealing from that computer technician doing their work.

    China is learning from Russia and there are things China has learned from western companies that Russia could learn from too.

    Personally, I'd feel happiest of Russia concentrated on an all new Il-96.. but hopefully UAC know what they are doing with the Chinese as well.

    AFAIK the new plane was always going to be Chinese for China in the Chinese market and that the Il-96 made more sense for Russia as long as it got new engines like the PD-35.

    There is nothing wrong with the Il-96, it is a good aircraft... what it needed was better engines and the PD-35 will be ideal to make it a long range heavy twin.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:52 pm

    1)A greying population. In 20/25/30 yrs time, its population is heavily skewed towards the elderly. That was a big problem for Japan.. and will be a big one for China. At 1.5 bn people it can't just import people or even choose to increase birthrates.

    Japans solution was to focus on robotics...

    2)China has major ecological issues too. I don't mean the hippy/Thunberg/ecofascism imaginary type. I mean mass pollution of land and water etc. They will be seeking to export their manufacturing. Which had originally catapulted them forward. More problems going forward

    they could hide it and shift it to other countries or it could find solutions with dealing with industrial levels of pollution which should create useful technologies and solutions moving forward...

    Lots of countries have similar problems and would pay for solutions...

    In the meantime, hopefully UAC can look at various partners eg Iran, Arabia, Eurasian Union, India, ASEAN, Africa etc who don't demand blood or the "crown jewels" of intellectual property just to be partners.

    There is a whole world out there of countries used to getting screwed over by the west... who would love to trade with human beings instead of colonial monsters...

    Trading with a country it is not a sin if they grow and develop because of your trade too.

    Actually improving things for both parties is a good thing...

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    Post  Backman Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:49 pm

    Then there's the UAE. The Gulf monarchies always trying to find ways to technify their economies. Under the post Feb 24 sanctions regime, this angle is probably over unfortunately.

    From last year

    Russia, UAE consider expanding cooperation in aircraft industry https://interfax.com/newsroom/top-stories/73143/


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    Post  Arkanghelsk Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:43 am

    https://tass.ru/ekonomika/15073925?utm_source=smoothiex12.blogspot.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=smoothiex12.blogspot.com&utm_referrer=smoothiex12.blogspot.com

    ALEKSIN / Tula region /, June 29. /TASS/. Russia is reducing its participation in the project to create a long-range wide-body aircraft CR929 jointly with China, Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov said at the plenary session of the Future Engineers forum. “We are working with China on this project, which, in principle, is not going in the direction that suits us. China, as it becomes an industrial giant, is less and less interested in our services, we have our design bureau, we have vast experience in TsAGI ( Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute - TASS note).<...> But the Chinese have more needs than we have today. Our participation is decreasing and decreasing. I don't want to predict the future of this project - will we leave it or not , but for now it is actually on its way," Borisov said.

    ---------
    It seems Russia is not willing to give Chinese the PD35 so they can appropriate the technology

    Let China figure for itself this science which Russia has mastered with PD14, PD35

    There is a solution for China and Comac; the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (ACAE) has been developing their own engine, expressly designed for the C919 aircraft. The ACAE CJ-1000A has performance similar to the CFM LEAP-1C and PW1000G, but to China it is a native engine, built domestically. The CJ-1000A was unveiled in 2012, and has been in testing ever since. However, this engine might not be ready for service until 2030.

    ----

    So they will not have an engine even by 2030

    This compared to PD14, concept 2009, serial production 2021

    Russia does not need anyone, and can solve these tasks for itself


    Especially since China tried taking antonov with it to Beijing

    Well, let them wait a little longer

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:48 am

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 35 16570610

    MS21 is beautiful, but re engined il96 400 will be amazing with PD35

    I am glad Russia reduces CR929 cooperation and moves for itself in this field !

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    Post  Backman Wed Jul 06, 2022 5:34 am

    China, as it becomes an industrial giant, is less and less interested in our services wrote:

    In other words, aviation is yet another sector that China has ambitious designs on dominating by itself eventually. At least Russia has noticed this and won't let China eat its lunch.

    China hasn't even mastered military jet engines yet. But they will just keep buying up aviation assets in the US and Europe until the Huawei moment comes. Then maybe they will realize that a equal partnership deal with Russia was a better bet.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:52 am

    I am sure Russia would be happy to sell the technologies but I don't think China is prepared to pay anywhere near a reasonable price for such technology...

    Would you pay 100 million dollars for a PC computer?

    You could spend that and develop your own which is the whole point of course... as a normal consumer the answer is obviously no as there could be no reasonable way to justify spending that much, but if your intent is to make your own computers and sell them commercially then spending 100 million dollars might save you the 500 million dollars it would cost to R&D to get to the level the Russians are already at so it will save a little money but also a lot of time and avoid lots of potential failures which might also have costs associated with them too... if you want to make your own computers then it makes sense, but it is always cheaper to buy some existing examples and take them apart and see how they work and try to make them yourself.

    Spend $100K buying dozens of different types of computer and test and evaluate them and their designs and potential add ons and upgrades and work out what might suit you best and then work on copying important parts and then move to the point where you can make everything which will take time especially if the company wont sell you a licence for production so you can assemble them legitimately for a period of time first.

    It is a question of trade secrets... buy them or steal them or try to make them on your own... stealing is cheapest but can lead to problems down the track if you have to deal with those companies again and it will make other companies wary of selling you things or giving you licence production contracts.

    In other words, aviation is yet another sector that China has ambitious designs on dominating by itself eventually. At least Russia has noticed this and won't let China eat its lunch.

    It wants to be self sufficient and not vulnerable to foreign sanctions... I would say in the current climate that is understandable and quite normal... it is the west that would project hostile intent... they are unlikely to use it as a weapon like the west does.

    Russia is not joined at the hip to China and is not obliged to hand anything over and the reverse is also true, but I would not fear Chinese industrial espionage in the same way I would view western espionage... which is more likely to lead to Russian technology being used against Russia and Russians...
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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:43 pm

    Did your read this post?
    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4551844.html
    A very good summary and it confirms my point of view that the MC-21 will not be completely Russian before 2030.

    Russia should further develop the TU-214. First of all the series production at two locations. By all means that are available. To do this, Russia should immediately test or configure the TU-214 with PD-14M. With luck, such a TU-214NEO is ready for series production by 2027. That would be important for PD-14 (m) in series production.

    More range or better consumption. Possibly also lite the TU-214 easier by 2032 with plastic wing powered by mc-21.
    The future lies with a lot of reach with narrow Body aircraft anyway (see XLR). A slightly extended TU-214NEO with PD-14 but for up to 250 passengers and approx. 9000km range would be very competitive. You also need a Kevlar protected center tank.

    The IL-96 with PD-35 does not work. It is too deep for that. The engine will not fit underneath. The IL-96 should also be clearly too heavy. Then better a new fuselage. The keyword here is, right from the start, it is also designed as a freighter!

    However, the TU-214 must be a priority, from 2027 with PD-14M and from 2032 at the latest with plastic wing. This is the plane that needs Russia. Everything else, like the MC-21 in Russian, is utopia.

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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:27 am

    The economics of two-engine inter-continental jets is probably no longer an issue that Russia needs to worry about.   Produce four-engine
    Il-96s and that is good enough for Russia's needs.  

    But I don't buy the depth claim.  

    The Boeing 777 wing tips are about 17 feet above the ground.  

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 35 Aviljet_05

    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4 - Page 35 A6-ECF_B777-300_Emirates_front_%284134226438%29

    You can clearly see that the smaller engines with smaller intakes on the IL-96 are suspended below the wing on a slightly lower axis
    compared to the larger intake engines on the Boeing 777.    There is enough room to put PW 4000 or Trent 800 class engines on the Il-96.

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