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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #4

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:27 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Very sensible. The Tu-204 was actually a good jet and modern upgrades would make it ideal for Russia.  I would assume PD-14 engines are sufficient for it?

    The PS-90A has higher thrust but more fuel consumption and lower bypass ratio. I think they can tweak the PD-14 into a version that can be a drop-in
    replacement for the PS-90.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:38 am

    miketheterrible wrote:Very sensible. The Tu-204 was actually a good jet and modern upgrades would make it ideal for Russia.  I would assume PD-14 engines are sufficient for it?
    Baseline PD-14 engines are rated at about al14 tons of takeoff thrust, while the engines currently on the Tu204/214 are rated at 16tons.
    There is a version, PD-14M (which has an additional Booster stage (4 stages instead of 3) and it is rated at15.6tons of thrust.

    I imagine it could be further uprated to meet the needed thrust for the Tu204, but partially compromising its life (e.g the core of the engine will have to be replaced more often).

    There is in development a further evolution PD-16 with additional compressor and turbine stages and a thirst of above 17 tons (probably planned for the MC21-400), but I do not believe it is fully ready yet.

    Anyway I do not believe it makes sense to put this engine in the Tu-204 if they want to produce the aircraft now. The aircraft would need a supplemental type certicate and further testing to be able to carry passengers with the new engines.

    Probably it would be easier to just produce a few Tu214 aircrafts in the existing version (even if they use more fuel) and then concentrate in producing MC21 with PD14 and russian aircraft systems in 2024, when the import substitution program will have been completed.

    The number of produced Tu214 could be something like half a dozen per year for 2 or 3 years, and once there will be enough modern MC21 those Tu214 could be either ceded to friendly countries or retired from passenger use and  converted for special uses, e.g maritime patrol aircrafts or A&W/AWACS roles.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:11 am

    I think it would be best just to focus on building existing types, if necessary, and speed up the MC-21-400 project. I considered building an Il-96 with PD-14M engines some time ago. But by the time that engine became available you would probably in like 3 years after that see PD-35 become available as well. First priority should be building existing types and after that Russified MC-21 and Superjet.
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    Post  limb Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:43 am

    Will Russia be able to loot the motor such factory for d-436s? They are urgently needed for the Be-200.
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    Post  Krepost Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:52 am

    Tu-204 with PD-14 or PD-18 ???
    Why?
    Might as well make MC-21 with those engines.

    Honestly, don't make too much about re-start of Tu-204 production.
    At best, they will produce a few of them (with PS-90 engines) until production of the MC-21 gathers steam.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:43 pm

    Then there is the capacity of the engine production lines.

    Cranking up production is a multi faceted and wide spread issue.

    All true... you need skilled workers and you need engines and you also likely need to expand composite material manufacturing capacity and the avionics for the aircraft will have to be Russian as well so lots of industries are going to have to be invested in and lots of new jobs will be created, but unlike before when the prospects of Russian airlines perhaps buying 25% of their fleet as being Russian planes... now they can expect over 90% or 100% will need to be Russian products if they are good enough.

    Also with the extra production capacity they will likely start canvassing the world looking for other customers of their new products now too and the Russian military will almost certainly look to start replacing old obsolete types with new aircraft... there are plenty of Il-38s and Il-20s that need replacing, and also Tu-154s and Tu-134s and other aircraft still in use in Russia and around the world.

    There will be bottlenecks and problems and they will have to deal with those, but current demand for airlines for Russian air carriers is down due to Covid and they likely have rather more planes than they really need so not having to pay for leases on all those planes now likely is saving them money to be honest... and as actual demand expands more Russian types will enter the picture... Russian airlines might merge or cooperate to get the job done in a sensible way until the shortage of Russian planes has been dealt with.

    It's a great plane, so I'm asking about the potential it may have in the global market. I don't quite understand why so few planes were built from it. There are countries like Iran that should better operate an Il-96 than wait for western castles in the air.

    It needs new engines to be competitive, and western alternatives had newer engines and were already available with bribes and likely claims that customers prefer modern western planes to old Russian types (which might be true but only for the most ignorant passengers... who will be more influenced by ticket price... as long as the plane isn't a WWII era biplane... like the AN-2...)

    Now that western aircraft are not an option it becomes a good choice and with new engines even better.

    The Il-106 was sabotaged by the west who killed it because it was competition for the C-17 and would have been better and much cheaper, so much better competition.

    They also sabotaged other Russian aircraft to sell their own products.

    The An-70 was strangled to reduce competition for the A-400M... which is ironic because the Il-476 and Tu-330 were strangled to protect the An-70 within Russian circles, and now they are all probably needed as useful and Russian... (Il-106, Il-476, Il-276, Tu-330).

    It is impossible to hope to train and bring to a modern standard tens of thousands of people in just a place and in a short time, but if you do this countrywide, this could be more feasible.

    They have a budget surplus and lots of new aircraft designs and new engine designs to start building... it is a very exciting time for workers in Russia.

    Of course to do that you also have to guarantee the skilled workers and the engineers a good pay and decent relocation bonuses, including support for the families (to move someone from the far East or from Siberia to Voronezh or to Samara you need to be sure that children and wives of the workers are also happy).

    Exactly... Russian business practises... not American... don't have shareholders... any huge company profits should be invested in improving production and paying the workers more and also as you say looking after their interests... nice houses not too far away from the factories and with CEOs and top managers living in the same areas their lowest paid workers live... no gated rich peoples areas separating the managers from the workers.

    Ladoga (TVRS-44)

    So is this what they are calling the Let-610? or is that a different aircraft and if the latter are the now in competition...

    I found this on the Takeoff website:

    TVRS-44: in series – in four years
    photo: Oleg Panteleev photo: Oleg Panteleev

    Oleg Panteleev April 26, 2021

    In February 2021, celebrating its 15th anniversary, Siberian Light Aviation (SiLA) organized a conference on "Development of regional and local aviation in hard-to-reach areas on Russian-made aircraft" on the Baikal island of Olkhon, which was attended by several dozen representatives of aviation authorities, operators and manufacturers of aircraft and helicopters. One of the conference reports was devoted to the TVRS-44 44-seat turboprop regional aircraft being developed by the Ural Civil Aviation Plant (UZGA JSC), which is designed to replace several types of obsolete regional airliners currently used by Russian carriers. The project will be implemented in record time: the first deliveries are scheduled for 2025. At the same time, contrary to popular belief, this will be a new aircraft, which from the L-610 chosen at first as a prototype will retain only external similarity and partially – the aerodynamic layout of the wing. Oleg Panteleev, Editor-in-Chief of the AviaPort industry agency, who attended the conference, spoke with Sergey Merenkov, Chief Designer, who presented a report on the TVRS-44, about the market potential, design features and key milestones of this project.

    Today, no project starts without a market assessment. What aircraft should the TVRS-44 replace in the fleet of Russian airlines? And, looking more broadly, what is the aircraft's niche in the global market?

    If we talk about Russia, the task of replacing the fleet of obsolete domestic regional aircraft has been standing for a long time. Initially, back in the USSR, in the XIII-XIV five-year plans, i.e. from 1991 to 2000, it was planned to replace the fleet of AN-24 and Yak-40 aircraft, and this is no less than 1300 aircraft. The Party and the government took appropriate decisions, and in the period from 1979 to 1983, the USSR Ministry of Civil Aviation formulated tactical and technical tasks: two companies, the Ilyushin Design Bureau and the Czechoslovak company Let, were ordered two aircraft. This is the well-known Il-114, then still 60-seater, and L-610, then 40-seater. Given the growth of the national economy and the development of the airfield network, 500 Il-114 aircraft and a thousand L-610s were required.

    The Il-114 aircraft were intended for the Civil aviation Departments of the Central Regions, the North-West, the North Caucasus, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and Moldova. The L-610 aircraft, as a universal workhorse working from the ground, was supposed to cover the "north", all the Trans-Urals to the Far East, the highlands of Central Asia and Transcaucasia.

    In general, our current TVRS-44 is designed to replace the fleet of regional aircraft with a capacity of 30-50 seats in all potential markets. Currently, approximately one thousand turboprop aircraft are operated in this class, such as the British BAe Jetstream 41, the Brazilian Embraer EMB-120, the German Dornier 328-100, the Swedish SAAB 340, and the Canadian De Havilland Canada (Bombardier). Dash 8 (in versions 100 and 200), Soviet AN-24, AN-26-100 and AN-26B-100, Western European ATR-42. Another 250 vehicles of this dimension are jet – powered, including the Yak-40, Fairchild Dornier 328JET, Embraer ERJ-135 and ERJ-140.

    What markets is the aircraft aimed at? Only the EAEU, or do you have prospects in the far abroad countries of Southeast Asia, Africa, and South America?

    We consider all the markets listed by you as potential for TVRS. I will correct – not only the countries of Southeast Asia, but the countries of all of Asia plus the Middle East. In Syria, for example, there are six Yak-40s that have long been in need of replacement.

    How many TVRS aircraft can be produced in the next 20 years?

    So far, we have been working on the production program for 2025-2035, which is designed to deliver 220 aircraft and a maximum production rate of 26 aircraft per year. Only the basic version of the aircraft was evaluated – a convertible cargo-passenger aircraft with 44 passenger seats.

    The total volume of the production program can be estimated based on the prospects for deliveries of all developed options: cargo-for example, for the Russian Post, military transport, patrol, developed in the interests of both law enforcement agencies, Avialesookhrana, Rosrybolovstvo and other potential customers.

    As of the beginning of 2021, 125 regional aircraft of the Yak-40, AN-24, An-26-100 and AN-26B-100 types remained in service in commercial and state aviation of Russia, a total of 184 such aircraft in the world. There is also a fleet of cargo planes, 186 vehicles, most of which are operated by the Ministry of Defense and other law enforcement agencies.

    As you can see, there is little left to change. But the transportation market has shrunk for objective reasons. And if there is an aircraft that will allow you to restore flights that were stopped today and develop the market, then new prospects will appear.

    Do you already have an understanding of what special versions can be created based on the aircraft? Perhaps a vehicle with a side door or ramp, ambulance, or patrol car?

    Yes, we are working on all these listed options and a number of others. TVRS is designed by us as a basic aircraft for a large family.

    How were the requirements for the aircraft formed?

    In general, the requirements were set by the customer-the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, and are summarized in a document entitled "Tactical and technical task for the development work "Development of a turboprop regional aircraft" ("TVRS code")", approved on September 2, 2020.

    UZGA JSC had already conducted a large-scale survey of potential customers-both commercial airlines and state-owned operators, in Russia and abroad, prior to the design process. In addition to correspondence, the work also included face-to-face negotiations, which made it possible to form the basic requirements for the future aircraft, which formed the basis of the TTZ.

    In addition to the requirements of the Ministry of Industry and Trade, we looked at a number of absolute and specific parameters, layout features that have developed in the world since the creation of the AN-24 and Yak-40. We have tabulated these parameters. I will highlight a few: the presence of two luggage and cargo compartments and their specific volume per passenger, the location of the entrance door-ladder in the front part of the fuselage, the ability to withstand the speed in a circle at major airports at the level of 450-460 km / h.

    Can I state the main provisions of the tactical and technical task? Passenger capacity, cargo and baggage handling capabilities, cargo – distance ratio?

    The requirements were primarily due to the need to ensure a full replacement of the AN-24 and Yak-40 aircraft from the point of view of maintaining their base on the same unpaved airfields, with the same runway conditions. At the same time, the possibilities for temperature conditions and geography of application, including flights in natural icy conditions, will be wider.

    The only thing in which the TVRS will be inferior to the AN-24 is in the maximum passenger capacity-44 seats against 48. But at the same time, the seat pitch will be 736.6 mm (29 inches) against 720 mm, and the specific capacity of luggage and cargo compartments is 0.27 m3 per passenger against 0.16, i.e. 1.7 times more.

    The practical range of TVRS with a paid load of 5 tons will be 1200 km, with 44 passengers-2200 km, which is 500 and 900 km more than that of the AN-24, respectively. Cruising speed and altitude – 460-480 km / h and 7200 m, maximum cruising speed and maximum operating altitude – 530 km/h and 7620 m.

    Without reducing the maximum take-off weight, the aircraft must be operated on a runway up to and including class "G", i.e. 1300 m long, regardless of the type of surface. With a reduced take-off weight, we plan to work with a runway length of 800-1000 m. Restrictions on flights from unpaved runways – ground density is not lower than 6 kgf / cm2, for strafing and taxiing we will provide 5-5. 5 kgf/cm2.

    The TVRS will be piloted by a two-person crew, its avionics system will be digital with on-screen display and correspond to the CNS/ATM concept in the part applicable to regional aviation aircraft. The cockpit interface includes four 12.5-inch screens, two multi-function control panels for all technical equipment, from radar stations to aircraft transponders, and three integrated radio communication panels.

    How will TVRS compare to competing products? Will it have unique features that make it stand out from the competition?

    There are no unique features of TVRS – this is not the class of aircraft where revolutions are made. But we tried to go "around the envelope" of the best indicators achieved by classmates, with the exception, perhaps, of the maximum speed, which is not very compatible with basing on primers with a length of 1300 m. In terms of speed, we are inferior to jet aircraft, and, say, the same Dornier 328-100.

    Separately, we should mention the capacity of luggage and cargo compartments – 12 m3 – here we surpass not only odnoklassniki, but also almost all existing aircraft of a higher class for 50-80 seats – ERJ-145, AN-140-100, CRJ-100 and CRJ-200, Dash 8-300 (Q300), SAAB 2000, Fokker 50, Il-114-100 Il-114-300, BAe ATP, ATR-72. We are second only to the 74-seat CRJ-700 and 78-seat Dash 8-400 (Q400). This is a time requirement – over the past 20 years, the nomenclature of so-called "associated" and postal cargo has shifted to relatively low densities of about 80-112 kg / m3.

    The ability to convert from passenger to cargo-passenger and cargo variants is not a unique feature – EMB-120 and AN-140-100 are certified in such a technical person. But we offer options for 44 passengers and 12 cubic meters of cargo; 36 passengers and 16 cubic meters of cargo; 20 passengers and 27 cubic meters of cargo. Well, 45 cubic meters of cargo is out of any competition. The 1030x1780 mm rear cargo door allows loading in all combined versions and provides loading and transportation of "cargo 200". The dimensions of the cargo door allow you to carry a stretcher in the medical evacuation version or install a lifting device similar to those used on SSJ100 and An-148 aircraft in the EMERCOM of Russia, and in the configuration for Avialesookhrana, the door is designed with a sliding section that allows for parachute landing of firefighters.

    We also expect to maintain the maximum take-off weight, which is at least one ton lower than the only commercially produced Odnoklassnik, the ATR – 42-600.

    In addition, a feature that is not present in aircraft of this class is the capacity of fuel tanks, which provides a practical flight range of at least 5500 km. Of course, flying "on propellers" over such distances is not the greatest pleasure. But we look at this "range margin" more as the possibility of using a comparative large aircraft as a kind of" minibus", which, taking off from Yakutsk, for example, in Saskyli, can then follow to Tiksi, from there to Chokurdy, then to Moma and return to Yakutsk without refueling at any of the named intermediate airfields. Of course, at the same time, the maximum load capacity is not demonstrated, but this possibility, embedded in the aircraft, allows the operator to provide flexible routes to airfields that are problematic to provide fuel and lubricants.

    To what extent was the basic design of the L-610 dogma?

    The L-610 was considered as a prototype TVRS, but is not a basic design. Let me remind you of what our customer, the Minister of Industry and Trade Denis Manturov, said on September 3, 2019: "We are not talking about launching production of this aircraft, but about creating a new turboprop aircraft based on the scientific and technical reserve of the L – 610 program."

    In fact, it turned out to be a complete redesign of the prototype, i.e. the creation of a new aircraft. Equipment, materials and fasteners are 100% new and completely domestic. New is the fuselage, including the entire theory, cross-section, nose and tail, contours of the cockpit light, the entire structural and power scheme,the entire layout and suspension of the wing and tail.

    The theory and design of the tail, the fairing of the wing with the fuselage and the fairings of the main landing gear supports have changed. New are the structural and power scheme of the wing and its execution from long milled panels. Flaps, ailerons, interceptors, and wing systems have been completely redesigned. Also, a new feature of the wing and tail design was the installation of heating elements of an electric thermal de-icing system.

    To fulfill the technical specifications of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, it was necessary to lengthen the fuselage by more than a meter, apply the front location of the entrance door-ladder instead of the rear, increase the width of the fuselage on the floor by 10% (from 2020 to 2250 mm), move the wing completely beyond the theoretical contour of the fuselage, increase the capacity of the wing fuel tanks almost twice, and raise the maximum take-off weight by about 20%. The latter required the use of more powerful engines and a new reinforced chassis.

    It is easier to say what remains in common with the prototype: this is the aerodynamic layout of the "smooth" wing, and then partially-only the profiling and the angle of the transverse V.

    What are the targets for the cost of the aircraft and the cost of the flight hour?

    The cost of a flight hour is set in the Technical specifications of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation and in 2020 prices is 150 thousand rubles. for a flight time of 150 hours per month, this includes direct operating costs and fuel costs, excluding lease payments. We have announced the price of TVRS at the level of 830 million rubles. excluding VAT (also in 2020 prices).

    What decisions have been made on materials, basic production technologies, and the level of use of composite materials?

    TVRS has a traditional all-metal prefabricated riveted airframe structure – fuselage, wing, keel and stabilizer. Composite materials will be used for flaps, interceptors, nose fairing and fuselage end, wing-to-fuselage fairing and fairings of the main landing gear supports. Also, the floors of the transport cabin, ceiling luggage racks and interior trim panels are made of composite materials. While the performance of rudders and ailerons is being discussed – I do not rule out the use of a conservative design.

    What components and systems have already been selected? Earlier it was announced about the use of engines of the TV7-117 family, chassis, crew cabin glazing from liners mastered in production. What else to choose?

    The choice of appearance and configuration has been completed for all systems and equipment, and it remains to determine some of the performers.

    Yes, we do plan to use TV7-117ST-02 engines as a power plant – this is how UEC-Klimov JSC named the modification for TVRS, which is characterized by" cut-off " capacities (2300-2600 hp on takeoff instead of 2900-3100 hp for the basic version of the TV7-117ST-01 engine) and the installation of an oil radiator and exhaust pipe directly on the engine. The closed-loop oil system allows you not to drain and refuel the oil again when replacing the engine, all oil lines are very significantly shortened and guaranteed to be removed from the potential damage zone by non-localized fragments of turbine disks.

    Switching to an electric launch instead of an air launch makes it easier to operate the aircraft. Currently, Mi-8 helicopters with TV2-117 engines, An-24 and AN-26 aircraft with AI-24 engines, and An-12 aircraft with AI-20 engines mainly fly beyond the Urals – all of them with electric start.

    A modification of the AV-112 propeller with blades with a diameter of 3.6 m (like the SV-34) will be used – the developer of the propeller, PJSC Aerosila, gave it the name AV-44.

    Taking into account the time allotted to us, we took a number of units, the creation of which requires a lot of time, including long-term tests to confirm compliance with certification requirements, from other mass-produced aircraft. This is a glazed cab light, the main landing gear struts and a number of less significant units.

    Will UZGA develop any systems independently?

    JSC UZGA will indeed develop and complete a number of systems independently. Among them are the steering control system, hydraulic system, fire protection system, fuel and drainage systems, oxygen system, emergency and rescue equipment, interior, household, passenger and transport equipment, general aircraft equipment control system, on-board maintenance system, ground handling facilities and a number of others.

    Please name the key milestones of the project, both existing and planned.

    Pre-contract work on the TVRS project was started by UZGA JSC back in December 2018 – more than 1.5 years of work on the prototype was quite enough time to confirm the decision on the need to create a new aircraft. The state contract was signed on December 25, 2020. In December 2021, the defense of the technical project and the mock-up commission are planned, and the start of working design will be given a little earlier. Initial certification is scheduled for December 2024.

    Where do you plan to master the serial assembly of the aircraft? Will a glider assembly cooperation be formed, and is there any understanding of who can participate in it?

    The question of serial assembly is still open. The final assembly of TVRS prototypes will be performed at our production facility in Yekaterinburg. Cooperation in the production of airframe assemblies is defined as a single one for experimental and production aircraft, and it considers the use of industrial sites in Taganrog, Komsomolsk-on-Amur, Nizhny Novgorod and Samara.

    You said that it is planned to reach the serial production of 26 aircraft per year. By what time will it be reached?

    We plan to reach the maximum assembly rate by the seventh year of mass production, i.e. by 2031.

    Are there any estimates of pre-production costs?

    The costs of pre-production and the labor intensity of production itself have already been estimated and have shown full compliance with the amount of financing provided for in the state contract.

    How will the after-sales service system be built? Who will act as an integrator?

    We expect to create the most flexible and" liberalized " after-sales service system, which provides for the full transfer of all possible technical operation competencies to airlines and partner service centers.

    What parameters are laid down from the point of view of after-sales service – the planned complexity of maintenance, repair intervals?

    All parameters are defined in the Technical Specifications of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, in particular, repairs are not provided, operation is carried out as of with a minimum interval of 500 flight hours.

    Will the simulator be created, and if so, by whom and in what time frame? Where will flight and maintenance personnel be trained?

    The creation of a complex of technical training tools is prescribed in the Technical Specifications of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation. It must be created simultaneously with TVRS certification and include a comprehensive Class D simulator. The developer of this simulator is assumed to be JSC "TsNTU "Dynamics".

    Previously, the flight and technical personnel training center will be established on the basis of UZGA JSC.

    Which potential operators and leasing companies are being negotiated with? Are there any intent protocols already in place?

    We have held negotiations with nine airlines and signed protocols of intent. If we add the state aviation order currently being issued, the order portfolio will amount to about 200 aircraft.

    The printed version of the article is published in the magazine" Vzlet " No. 3-4 / 2021

    http://www.take-off.ru/item/4366-tvrs-44-v-seriyu-cherez-chetyre-goda

    Whereas this article:

    http://www.take-off.ru/item/4367-l-610-kakim-on-byl

    Says:


    The 40-seat turboprop regional passenger aircraft L-610 became the largest aircraft designed and built in the Czech Republic (until 1990-the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic). Ordered in the early 1980s to the Let company in Kunovitsa by the Soviet Aeroflot, the main buyer of the 19 – seat L-410 aircraft produced by this enterprise – it was intended to replace the numerous An-24s in domestic civil aviation, whose serial production ended in 1979. But fate decreed otherwise: the plane did not have time to complete the tests before the collapse of the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance of the countries of the former Socialist Lager (COMECON) and the Soviet Union itself, and the new Russia in the 1990s.it was no longer necessary. As a result, the L-610 program was limited to building and testing six flight models with two types of powerplant, and the first dozen and a half production vehicles that were being assembled were never able to take to the sky. The last time the L-610 flew was more than 20 years ago-in June 2000.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:52 pm

    Will Russia be able to loot the motor such factory for d-436s? They are urgently needed for the Be-200.

    No.

    Tu-204 with PD-14 or PD-18 ???
    Why?
    Might as well make MC-21 with those engines.

    Honestly, don't make too much about re-start of Tu-204 production.

    With the new engines their performance will actually be very good, and in terms of meeting potential demand in Russia having two types in production is a good thing.

    Restarting production is not a stopgap emergency response that will satisfy some demand until other types can be put into full serial production... the Russian military could likely take them after airlines get more suitable types but honestly the costs of converting from an airliner to a specialist military type... except of course VIP transport is often more expensive than just building new.

    The Tu-204 could replace the Il-38 and Il-20 types in Military service as well as Tu-134 and Tu-154M types still being used in civilian and military roles.

    Hopefully workers finished producing Tu-204s and 214s can then be used to make Tu-330s which has a lot of commonality with those aircraft.

    A 35 ton payload transport plane would be very useful and quite in demand around the world as An-12s expire and can't be replaced... politically... by C-130s or A-400Ms because they are far too expensive and not able to buy western stuff.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Will Russia be able to loot the motor such factory for d-436s? They are urgently needed for the Be-200.

    No.
    I do not know if it is sensible to build a lot more Be-200 with the current engine instead of waiting for the PD-8. Maybe a few of them.
    Furthermore the D-436 were assembled also at the saljut plant in Moscow, even if I believe a large part of the components were still coming from the Ucraine.
    It depends in which state the plant is. Of course they would need some spare engines for the existing airplanes, but in case of recovering control of motor sich (In a friendly Novorussian state) I would prefer them to firstly concentrate on D18T engines for the An124 and possibly components production for russian engines.

    Later on possibly considering a organising there a second production line for some of the new russian engine models, but that would mean seriously investing in that plant as well.
    GarryB wrote:
    Tu-204 with PD-14 or PD-18 ???
    Why?
    Might as well make MC-21 with those engines.

    Honestly, don't make too much about re-start of Tu-204 production.

    With the new engines their performance will actually be very good, and in terms of meeting potential demand in Russia having two types in production is a good thing.

    Restarting production is not a stopgap emergency response that will satisfy some demand until other types can be put into full serial production... the Russian military could likely take them after airlines get more suitable types but honestly the costs of converting from an airliner to a specialist military type... except of course VIP transport is often more expensive than just building new.

    The Tu-204 could replace the Il-38 and Il-20 types in Military service as well as Tu-134 and Tu-154M types still being used in civilian and military roles.

    Hopefully workers finished producing Tu-204s and 214s can then be used to make Tu-330s which has a lot of commonality with those aircraft.

    A 35 ton payload transport plane would be very useful and quite in demand around the world as An-12s expire and can't be replaced... politically... by C-130s or A-400Ms because they are far too expensive and not able to buy western stuff.

    I agree on the priority on MC21 for the PD-14 and PD16 engines. The first batch of MC21 to be delivered were anyway supposed to have Pratt & Whitney engines, and now they will all need instead to have PD 14. For this reasons possibly the engines could be the bottle neck in the production for a while.
    If it is mainly for military use I believe that the current PS-90 are ok for the Tu214.

    As an example a few years ago Boeing developed a maritime patrol aircraft from the 737. It was based on the previous model with the engine from the 1980s (Snecma CFM56) and not on the new 737 version with the new CFM Leap engine.

    Anyway due to the current and future needs of Russian airplanes, it is highly possible that increasing both the production capacity of the supply chain and that of the final assembly plant for the PD-14 is needed.
    Due to this the existing jet engine industry in ucraine (at least for parts and component production), could be of course useful, even if it would need serious investment.
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    Post  Autodestruct Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:04 am

    The first batch of MC21 to be delivered were anyway supposed to have Pratt & Whitney engines, and now they will all need instead to have PD 14. For this reasons possibly the engines could be the bottle neck in the production for a while.

    Not necessarily. It depends on how many spares they have. And they can use the engines from the prototypes as spares. And the PD-14 is ready for production now (they don't need EASA certification right now anymore) and so Russia doesn't need much of a stopgap on the MC-21.

    Later on possibly considering a organising there a second production line for some of the new russian engine models, but that would mean seriously investing in that plant as well.

    Definitely not worth it. Ukrainian engine design and manufacturing technologies are way behind the times.

    They have a budget surplus and lots of new aircraft designs and new engine designs to start building.

    They do have a lot of designs that could be brought more or less up to date with just a little work. But they need to decide which are the most critical and focus their efforts on them. Russia can make do for a couple years via cannibalization. I don't know about beyond that. So they have to get production up fast. And that requires a lot of standardization.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:22 am

    Autodestruct wrote:
    The first batch of MC21 to be delivered were anyway supposed to have Pratt & Whitney engines, and now they will all need instead to have PD 14. For this reasons possibly the engines could be the bottle neck in the production for a while.

    Not necessarily.  It depends on how many spares they have.  And they can use the engines from the prototypes as spares.  And the PD-14 is ready for production now (they don't need EASA certification right now anymore) and so Russia doesn't need much of a stopgap on the MC-21.


    Prototype engines for ground tests normally are not allowed to flight. They should be made by the same components as the production engines, but often a lot of quality checks and processes are skipped, and furthermore  several production defects that would make them not flightworthy are instead tollerated for ground tests. I do not know what the processes in Perm engines are, but even if the parts are in good conditions it would be difficWould it be worth for just a few engines? Probably it would make more sense to keep the parts for eventual further tests if needed.
    Autodestruct wrote:
    Later on possibly considering a organising there a second production line for some of the new russian engine models, but that would mean seriously investing in that plant as well.

    Definitely not worth it.  Ukrainian engine design and manufacturing technologies are way behind the times.
    They should still have a decent supply chain that could help increasing manufacturing some parts and increasing production rates. Not all parts in an engines are turbine blades or discs. Furthermore, at least in the west many engine parts are not actually manufactured by the engine companies. Only designed and then ordered from an approved external supplier (of course after the supplier passes all quality checks and follow the same approved procedures. The engine firm then get all the parts and assemble the engines.

    The reasoning on actually producing there engines is only if they invest on actually modernising the plant. And it may be needed if in the next few years they plan to replace all foreign aircrafts (and engines to domestic ones).

    Just as an example, Rolls-Royce has a production site in Singapore, where they produce some parts and even assemble and test engines.

    https://asianaviation.com/rolls-royce-consolidating-operations-in-singapore-closing-some-operations-in-great-britain/

    Russia UEC could do the same in Zaporozhye (previously known as Aleksandrovsk).

    If novorossia becomes a new state friendly to Russia and dependent from it it needs also an industrial sector.
    And starting from there is easier than starting from nothing.
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    Post  Autodestruct Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:36 am

    Prototype engines for ground tests normally are not allowed to flight.

    I know that. I was talking about the P&W engines. They are production engines and can be used as spares. So they have at least 6 spares. And I'm not aware of Irkut starting any more MC-21s after the first pilot batch of 5. Assuming they've already received the engines for each of these, they have a healthy stock of spares. They can use these 300 series while they are waiting to finalize the 310 series.

    Irkut won't use the PD-14 prototypes. But that engine is ready for series production.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:30 pm

    I do not know if it is sensible to build a lot more Be-200 with the current engine instead of waiting for the PD-8. Maybe a few of them.

    They have been making and using Be-200s for the last 8 years so they clearly have some way of getting engines for them as well as spare parts.

    Western nations never seemed interested in buying Be-200s, though they seemed to like it when they turned up to help so I would think just make a few for Russia and not worry about marketing them to the rest of the world till a suitable all Russian engine is ready to go... personally I preferred the bigger Be-40/42 which would benefit from having PD-16s to replace the old D-30Ks... and the 2 ton thrust booster engines...

    Keeping the D-18T engines going for another 5-10 years would be a worthwhile investment, but PD-25s would make more sense as soon as practically possible.

    Due to this the existing jet engine industry in ucraine (at least for parts and component production), could be of course useful, even if it would need serious investment.

    Russia should not invest in the competition... cold and hard as it is... it is not money well spent.

    Current Russian production of engines and civilian airliners and military transports is what it is because of expected demand... well expected demand has changed, so investment and changes in planning should allow production across the board to increase to meet the new expected demands... there might be gaps and shortfalls, but it will be done.

    Definitely not worth it. Ukrainian engine design and manufacturing technologies are way behind the times.

    Agreed, and investing Russian money would only make them a rival and competitor with Russian makers.

    Set them up to make spare parts for their old aircraft... they can make good money supplying them to Russian customers and aircraft operators around the world of their designs... it will be a good income and not as expensive as building them their own aircraft engine industry.

    But they need to decide which are the most critical and focus their efforts on them. Russia can make do for a couple years via cannibalization. I don't know about beyond that. So they have to get production up fast. And that requires a lot of standardization.

    I disagree.... you narrow the types and focus on a few types when money is tight and the market is tight... money is not tight and the market is theirs, so any potentially useful aircraft design that will be useful should be funded to go ahead... Tu-204s in one factory and Tu-214s in another and Tu-330s as well because of the commonality of the design. And of course the factories producing the new types should also be building their planes as well.

    Make the engines too... you will know which planes you are making so you will also therefore know which engines you need so make those too...


    The reasoning on actually producing there engines is only if they invest on actually modernising the plant. And it may be needed if in the next few years they plan to replace all foreign aircrafts (and engines to domestic ones).

    You would need to look at the Ukrainian plants before you decided if it was worth it or not, and I would suggest making it a machine shop able to make the parts for engines to keep them going... Russia can continue to make most of the engines they need...


    If novorossia becomes a new state friendly to Russia and dependent from it it needs also an industrial sector.

    Dependent is the Key here though.... making parts is not the same as a state of the art facility making engines... if they want the latter they can spend their own money and resources to get that... Russia might help them achieve the former to support their air fleet.
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    Post  lancelot Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:55 pm

    PD-14 is in serial production. They built an improved testing facility. They also increased the production to like a dozen engines a year I think. That should be enough for half a dozen aircraft a year. They also had a plan to double production in the short term. Then double it again. The problem is the other imported components used in MC-21 like avionics.

    A lot of the existing engine production capacity of the engine factory is currently being used for PS-90 engine related production. Most of it being gas turbines using the PS-90 core for pumping natural gas like for example in Power of Siberia. They are supposed to put four pumping stations in operation in Power of Siberia this year which should massively increase the gas resource pumped through it.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:14 am

    Autodestruct wrote:
    Prototype engines for ground tests normally are not allowed to flight.

    I know that.  I was talking about the P&W engines.  They are production engines and can be used as spares.  So they have at least 6 spares.  And I'm not aware of Irkut starting any more MC-21s after the first pilot batch of 5.  Assuming they've already received the engines for each of these, they have a healthy stock of spares.  They can use these 300 series while they are waiting to finalize the 310 series.

    Irkut won't use the PD-14 prototypes.  But that engine is ready for series production.
    There is a problem in using these P&W engines. Without support from the manufacturer there will be problems in properly maintaining the engines (same issues that exists in currently foreign aircrafts in russian airlines).

    Possibly it would be a better use of those engines to properly study them and reverse engineer them (doing also some destructive testing) in order to learn something that could be applied to future improvement of Russian engines. Every manufacturer has its own strength, so learning from them would not be a bad thing. Till now this kind of "reverse engineering" would not be fully allowed, but with the sanctions it would be a useful addition.
    lancelot wrote:PD-14 is in serial production. They built an improved testing facility. They also increased the production to like a dozen engines a year I think. That should be enough for half a dozen aircraft a year. They also had a plan to double production in the short term. Then double it again. The problem is the other imported components used in MC-21 like avionics.

    A lot of the existing engine production capacity of the engine factory is currently being used for PS-90 engine related production. Most of it being gas turbines using the PS-90 core for pumping natural gas like for example in Power of Siberia. They are supposed to put four pumping stations in operation in Power of Siberia this year which should massively increase the gas resource pumped through it.
    From what I remember reading in the past it was planned to have an initial production rate for the MC21 of 20 aircraft sper year and to increase that up to 70 aircrafts per year within 5 years (and in an interview I read about possibility of expanding the facilities in irkusk to allow around 100 aircrafts per year). This number may also need to increase as all the foreign Airbus A320 and Boeing 737 will have eventually to be replaced.
    That would mean at least 40 PD14 engines per year initially and more than 150 (considering also spares and replacement engines) later to allow the planned aircraft production rate.
    A dozen engines per year is an order of magnitude too little.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Mar 21, 2022 4:15 am

    The same facility is currently producing like 90 PS-90 engine cores a year.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:33 pm

    The current production scale was not intended for the now expected production requirements and it will take a while to kick things up a gear.

    In the mean time most airlines are suffering because they really have too many aircraft for the current demand and with Russian airlines banned from most of the west that demand is not going to increase very rapidly any time soon, so the problems are not as dramatic as they might appear.

    The longer flight times are actually a good thing because these new aircraft we are talking about all have good long range performance... Il-96, Tu-204 and Tu-214 have good flight range in different flight configurations... the Russian Airlines brought this on themselves and cannot blame anyone else.

    From what I have read the Russian federation subsidised their airlines to lease planes and they leased foreign types so that was Russian money going to foreign aircraft leasing companies so stopping that on its own is a good thing.

    Fire those CEOs that signed off on that and start again with Russian planes.

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    Post  Autodestruct Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:42 am

    I disagree.... you narrow the types and focus on a few types when money is tight and the market is tight... money is not tight...

    We'll see in another month or two. I think money is going to be a lot tighter than you believe. Russia can survive the West's sanctions - but it is going to hurt for a while.

    There is a problem in using these P&W engines. Without support from the manufacturer there will be problems in properly maintaining the engines (same issues that exists in currently foreign aircrafts in russian airlines).

    Six engines is a really hefty set of spares for five aircraft. That's all they need. They just need to use the 300 series until the 310 series is ready. And then they can retrofit the 300s.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:07 pm

    They were and are running a budget surplus and the increased price of oil and gas is making the situation better not worse.

    There will be a lot of contracts that are broken by western companies no longer being able to work with their Russian counterparts, but those cancelled contracts are cancelled at the western end so they will pay any fees or fines involved in breaking the contracts.

    None of this is expensive, and most of the stuff Russia exports has gone up in price and the value of the ruble has gone down so even bigger profit margins than they would normally have.

    Lots of western companies that hired Russians will be firing lots of Russians but then Russia needs to replace a lot of those services and products and such people would be the perfect workforce to hire to fill the gaps.

    It is not going to be easy, but they have been through much tougher economic situations than this before, and this time they are completely ridding their whole body of the ticks that are the western based companies.... who are all in Russia to make lots of money... they are not there for charity or to help Russia or Russians.

    Good time to be a factory worker with experience... they are going to need a lot of them so they will have to offer good pay and conditions if they want to get and keep them.

    There is no point in having large reserve funds if you don't use them in this sort of situation... this is a serious investment in Russia that will lead to real independence so it makes sense to actually use some of the reserve funds to get things moving.

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    Post  Kiko Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:02 am

    Russian-built passenger jet won’t get foreign parts – Trade Ministry. 22.03.2022

    Ukraine sanctions target the country’s aviation sector.

    Foreign manufacturers have refused to supply components for Russia’s domestically-built MC-21 aircraft, Russian Industry and Trade Minister Denis Manturov said.

    According to the minister, the nation’s state-run United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) will put into operation two MC-21 aircraft instead of the previously planned four. The delivery of the jets is planned for 2024.

    “Supplies of components agreed under the framework of our broad international cooperation were denied,” Manturov said, as quoted by RIA Novosti.

    The minister added that foreign producers have refused to ship even prepaid orders without providing any reason.

    The Irkut MC-21 is the first narrow-body, medium-haul passenger jet designed and built in Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Conceived in the late 2000s, the plane is set to fill the niche that once belonged to the iconic Tu-154.

    Western nations have introduced a wide range of sanctions on Russia that target the aviation sectors of the economy, among others. The penalties imposed over the conflict in Ukraine ban the export of aviation and space-related products and technology, including technical assistance to Russia.

    https://www.rt.com/business/552482-russian-aviation-parts-denied/

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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Mar 23, 2022 7:41 am

    Hence why Tu-204 is ever more important. Lol

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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:12 am

    Russia will just have to develop its own replacements for such parts, which they will then be free to sell to the rest of the world rather cheaper than the west can sell their products.

    Russia should be imposing fines and sanctions on those companies withholding products already paid for.
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    Post  Autodestruct Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:46 am

    Russia should be imposing fines and sanctions on those companies withholding products already paid for.

    In many cases, there is nothing that can be done. The West through the international economic system based on free association and contracts fully in the garbage with regards to Russia, replacing it with the law of might makes right. Now, if the West can do something to hurt Russia, they will. That's why Russia had no choice but to adopt the same might makes right system and seize hundreds of airplanes and other assets.

    No promises will be honored now. It remains to be seen how drastically this change of events will shake up the global economy.
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    Post  wilhelm Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:19 am

    Does anyone have any links to an active Russian aviation forum?
    Civil aviation in particular.
    It doesn't matter if it's in Russian, as I will use an online translator.
    I'm interested in work being done on domestic designs, such as the Il-96, Tu-204/214, SSJ, Mc-21, and Il-114 following the attempts of the US and Europe to strangle Russian civil aviation.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 25, 2022 10:25 am

    In many cases, there is nothing that can be done. The West through the international economic system based on free association and contracts fully in the garbage with regards to Russia, replacing it with the law of might makes right.

    If the west is actually throwing the rules out the window then Russia is no longer bound by those rules any more either, which means they can seize assets or do other things to recover lost money or property, or they can just ban companies from that country from operating in Russia.

    As I have said in the past, western companies don't go to Russia for charity or for nation building, they go to make money, which is why western companies virtue signalling that they are leaving the Russian market is so amusing.

    Of course there are some companies, like food producing companies that ignore calls for them to leave because food is a critical product for the world and should not be politicised and those companies should be recognised and rewarded for having more character and integrity and common sense than those in charge in the western governments... most of which would happily see millions starve to get their way.  (Madeline Allbright leaps to mind... bitch).


    Does anyone have any links to an active Russian aviation forum?

    That used to be this one, but things seem a bit distracted, and I suspect most other forums on the internet will be equally distracted for a while though. Sad

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    Post  Autodestruct Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:30 pm

    If the west is actually throwing the rules out the window then Russia is no longer bound by those rules any more either, which means they can seize assets or do other things to recover lost money or property, or they can just ban companies from that country from operating in Russia

    That's what they're doing now to retaliate. We live in interesting times...

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