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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:23 pm

    Only issue would be the engine because it would need more powerfull ones. I think that's why they don't start this class.

    Actually a bigger heavier Gorshkov would solve the engine problem as you could make it a nuke.

    A ship straight outta the deepest darkest nightmares of Western Naval officers.

    The SG is definitely the only feasible Destroyer for the Russian navy (thanks to the Gorshkov), but this ain't gonna be some few extra months.

    What you are saying is true, but all that extra firepower is a larger volume of space for each weapon system and more launchers for each system... it is not really a complete redesign and reconfigure with all new untried systems...

    The point of making the new ships modular is so they are easier to scale up or down.

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    Post  Isos Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:09 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    What???

    Granted there is high degree of commonalty with the Gorshkov, especially with the weapon systems, but we are still looking at a considerable increase in size.
    And we have some new systems like the S-400 and the new Pantsirs.

    Seriously, the weapons load alone tells you that this is gonna be big, we have 15x8 UKSKs that's a 7+ fold increase in Cruise/AShM missiles alone, we got 24x8 Reduts a 6 fold increase in Short-to-Medium ranged AA missiles and 24 S-400 cells, each cell with at least 8 missile tubes each (Slava) so 24x8 Long-to-Very long ranged missiles (Yes, they could put 4 extra medium ranged missile in each tube).
    And 2 Pantsirs with reloading capabilities.

    A ship straight outta the deepest darkest nightmares of Western Naval officers.

    The SG is definitely the only feasible Destroyer for the Russian navy (thanks to the Gorshkov), but this ain't gonna be some few extra months.

    confused

    Wtf are you talking ? Those numbers are total BS. That's the level of a improved kirov.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:51 pm

    hoom wrote:Its the same model twice, so yeah both times it had 15*8 UKSK Rolling Eyes

    120 UKSK cells is mental & there is no way thats possible on an 8Kton ship.
    Upgraded 24Kton Nakhimov will have 80.
    The pagoda mast Lider model for a ~17Kton ship has only 48 or 64 (depending on interpretation of hatches).

    I get where your coming from, but this is the only model i have seen, it was present in 2017 and the recent 2018 expo, so unless there's another design that we haven't seen yet, i gotta go with what i got.

    Looking at the Lider, it's quite clear where your doubt are coming from, with the 6 launchers in the front and 2 in the back and the displacement is somewhere between 10kT to 18kT.

    So the displacement of 8kT is not looking likely, granted it is almost a doubling of the current 4,5kT of the Gorshkov.
    IMO, the displacement is probly closer to 10kT.

    Someone like LMFS should be able to tell us more.
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    Post  hoom Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:36 pm

    this is the only model i have seen, it was present in 2017 and the recent 2018 expo
    Model is present yes but its not labelled as far as I've seen, just there in the stand, no comment.
    So ppl have been guessing/assuming that its 22350M due to the similarity in form, except clearly it must be representing something much bigger like a Lider.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:59 pm

    hoom wrote:
    this is the only model i have seen, it was present in 2017 and the recent 2018 expo
    Model is present yes but its not labelled as far as I've seen, just there in the stand, no comment.
    So ppl have been guessing/assuming that its 22350M due to the similarity in form, except clearly it must be representing something much bigger like a Lider.

    In the 2017 expo yes, but there was a label in the 2018 expo, sadly the photographer didn't take a close enough picture of the label.

    Definitely wider than the Lider, but nowhere near as tall and probly be ~20 meters shorter in length.
    And there has been some talk of the SG as an alternative to the Lider.
    But who knows?

    Even if they make a ship with half the fire-power of this model, it would still be a substantial upgrade.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:37 pm

    Source: Russian Navy will order two more frigates of the type "Admiral Gorshkov"

    The Russian Navy and the United Shipbuilding Corporation are considering the possibility of ordering several more frigates of the project 22350 type "Admiral Gorshkov". Mil.Press FlotProm was informed about this by two high-level informed sources in the industry.

    According to the first source, we are talking about the order of the "Northern Shipyard" of two more frigates.

    Relevant consultations with the ship's designer, the Northern PKB, are already underway.

    Frigate "Admiral Gorshkov"
    Frigate "Admiral Gorshkov"
    Twitter.com, Capt (N)

    Another source reported the desire of the Navy to get not two, but at least three or four ships of project 22350. The


    interlocutors of Mil.Press FlotProm in the management of the United Shipbuilding Corporation and the Northern Shipyard, which is building the first series of frigates, did not confirm this information, but did not disprove . A source at USC said the corporation was able to build both two and four ships.

    In August 2018, the general director of Severnaya Verf, Igor Ponomarev, said in an exclusive interview with Mil.Press FlotProm that the company was able to simultaneously build eight frigates of the project 22350.
    As one of the designers of the Northern PKB told the publication, the fleet planned to order the construction of eight, then only six such ships. However, the series was reduced to four units due to lack of funds. Now they want to continue it again.
    Officially, information on the construction of an additional series of frigates was not confirmed by the publication. Corresponding requests were sent to the fleet and to the USC. According to the ex-commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Viktor Chirkov, the fleet needs at least 18 frigates of project 22350 and 36 corvettes of project 20380 (20385/20386).

    The shipbuilding program until 2020 provided for the construction of eight frigates of project 22350. To date, only the lead ship of the Admiral Gorshkov series has been transferred to the fleet . The second frigate, the Admiral Kasatonov , is planned to be commissioned in the autumn of 2019. They want to complete the whole series by 2022.

    The frigates of project 22350 will be replaced by a series of ships of project 22350M, which in the industry have been nicknamed “Super Gorshkovy”. According to the newspaper, as of November 15, 2018, the Northern PKB did not contract their design. The construction of the "M-series" was announced in 2014 by Viktor Chirkov, who served as commander-in-chief of the Navy from May 2012 to April 2016. The Russian fleet needs about 10 “Super-Gorshkovykh”, which will occupy an intermediate position between the frigates of the traditional displacement of 4,500–5,000 tons and promising destroyers. Project 22350M ships will receive a displacement of about 8,000 tons. The Northern Shipyard will be able to build them if it completes the modernization of production facilities on time.



    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8432/
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    Post  hoom Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:17 pm

    Kasatonov https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20181119/1532361436.html
    Apparently expecting to start sea trials in December.
    Has a sauna, that seems to be becoming a navy standard.

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    Post  AlfaT8 Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:08 pm

    What's the status on the 3rd ship Admiral Golovko?
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    Post  hoom Tue Nov 20, 2018 3:48 am

    Going by Google Earth as of June its still a superstructureless hull on the hard & not making rapid progress.
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    Post  George1 Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:54 pm

    Russian cutting-edge frigate to start sea trials in December

    The Severnaya Verf Shipyard’s delivery team and the crew are making final preparation

    ST. PETERSBURG, November 20. /TASS/. The cutting-edge frigate Admiral Kasatonov under construction for the Russian Navy at the St. Petersburg-based Severnaya Verf Shipyard will enter sea trials in early December 2018, the Shipyard’s press office reported on Tuesday.

    "The Project 22350 first serial-produced frigate Fleet Admiral Kasatonov is preparing for the first stage of shipbuilders’ sea trials in early December. Now the Shipyard’s delivery team and the crew are making final preparations for the ship’s first departure for sea," the press office said in a statement.

    During three weeks, the shipbuilders will check all the frigate’s systems: the propulsion unit (including the operation of the main engines in various modes) and electric equipment, navigation, communications, rescue, survivability, ventilation and air conditioning systems, its speed, maneuverability and stability for their compliance with the Project’s requirements. The program of trials also envisages artillery and missile fire.

    The warship may enter state trials already next summer, the press office said.

    "Thanks to the fact that the Project’s flagship, the frigate Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov has passed the fullest and the detailed program of trials, we plan to pass the program of shipbuilders’ sea trials with the first serial-produced Kasatonov much quicker. I believe that three weeks after its departure for sea, it will already return to the Shipyard from the first stage of shipbuilders’ sea trials. We are now working closely with the Severnoye Design Bureau, the project’s developer, to verify all the elements of the program of trials and we will take all the efforts to ensure that the ship leaves for state trials in summer," the press office quoted Shipyard CEO Igor Ponomaryov as saying.

    The frigate Fleet Admiral Kasatonov is the second (the first serial-produced) Project 22350 warship. The Project was developed by the Severnoye Design Bureau. The lead warship of this series, the Admiral Gorshkov, was delivered to the Navy in the summer of 2018 and the construction of two more frigates (the Admiral Golovko and the Admiral Isakov) continues at the slipways of the Severnaya Verf Shipyard in St. Petersburg.

    Project 22350 frigates are expected to become the Russian Navy’s most advanced warships in their class. These frigates displace 4,500 tonnes and can develop a speed of 29 knots. They are armed with Oniks and Kalibr missiles and the Poliment-Redut air defense missile system.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1031697
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    Post  Hole Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:14 am

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 4 039810
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    Post  George1 Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:16 pm

    The cutting-edge frigate Admiral Kasatonov will enter sea trials in December 2018

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1032678
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    Post  dino00 Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:35 pm

    George1 wrote:The cutting-edge frigate Admiral Kasatonov will enter sea trials in December 2018

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1032678

    The frigate of project 22350 "Admiral Kasatonov" will be put to the test before the end of the week

    According to Admiral Vladimir Korolev, new ships regularly enter the fleet.

    MOSCOW, December 20. / TASS /. The frigate of the project 22350 "Admiral Kasatonov", built at the "Northern Shipyard", will be put to the test by the end of this week, the commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Vladimir Korolyov, said at the VIIth Navy Scientific Practical Conference.

    "In the next two days, the frigate of Project 22350 Admiral Kasaton, built at the Northern Shipyard, will be put to the test," he said.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5937783
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    Post  Hole Fri Dec 21, 2018 4:25 pm

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 4 48420310
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    Post  George1 Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:29 pm






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    Post  GarryB Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:09 am

    The nose position of the ramjet reminds me of the mounting they used for testing scramjets in the 1990s... they put the scramjet on the nose of an SA-5 SAM.

    It looked rather unusual, but was very interesting.

    Very simply the missile was launched normally and all the solid rocket boosters fell away and it kept climbing and accelerating till it got to about 12km altitude and about mach 4 in speed and then the scramjet took over.

    The scramjet accelerated the missile to about mach 6 and ran for about 133 seconds and ran out about 180km down range...

    An important point is that these ramjets don't need to get the shell airborne and moving... they could simply operate in an idle mode and reduce air drag to zero with a very low throttle setting to extend fuel burn time and maximise range...

    BTW they are putting 130mm guns on frigates... I would think a destroyer would need a bigger and better gun, and certainly a cruiser could do with something better too...

    A 152mm gun for destroyers, and a 203mm gun for cruisers makes sense...
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    Post  kumbor Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:59 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    An important point is that these ramjets don't need to get the shell airborne and moving... they could simply operate in an idle mode and reduce air drag to zero with a very low throttle setting to extend fuel burn time and maximise range...

    BTW they are putting 130mm guns on frigates... I would think a destroyer would need a bigger and better gun, and certainly a cruiser could do with something better too...

    A 152mm gun for destroyers, and a 203mm gun for cruisers makes sense...

    with 180 range ti definitely would make sense to have a piece of artillery on board. El cheapo replacement for Kh-25 or any cruise missile to bomb shore installations.  I've never heard about 203 mm on ships now, although Russian destroyers will have likely close ~2x "Washingtonian" heavy cruisers' displacement lol1 lol1 lol1

    Some 40 years ago USN experimented with Mk71 8 in gun, mounted on Forrest Sherman DDG 945 -"USN Hull", but it was cancelled due to cost and structure cracking below deck,
    Soviets experimented with naval version of 2S7 203mm mounting, but it was also cancelled. There was also a project of low ballistics 406mm gun/missile mounting with 30-90 deg. elevation in a simple turret, never mounted aboard.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Dec 29, 2018 4:00 pm

    Off Topic Gents guns here emals and all but 22350 and soy sauce is off topic. Please open EMALS thread instead. Off Topic


    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BA38/


    Northern PKB began preliminary design of a frigate of the project 22350M


    On December 25, the Northern Design Bureau (SPKB) signed a contract for preliminary design of the frigate of the project 22350M. About this on Friday, December 28, Mil.Press FlotProm said an industry source familiar with the situation.


    The work will be completed by November 2019 or earlier, another source told the publication.


    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 4 1491453938_yayayaya

    one of variants 22350M,

    Designing an enlarged version of Admiral Gorshkov will take 2-2.5 years, and construction will take 4-5 years, added the source Mil.Press FlotProm. The proposed construction works are the St. Petersburg "Severnaya Verf" or the Kaliningrad factory "Yantar" (both enterprises are part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation - USK).
    The journalists of the publication could not officially confirm the signing of the contract either in the Special Design Bureau, or in the USC, or in the Main Committee of the Navy. At the same time, the design frigate bureau has already conducted certain pre-design works in accordance with the wishes of the Russian Navy, including on an initiative basis. The beginning of the design of the Northern PKB of the modernized frigates of the project 22350M was announced on July 28, 2018 by the Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Vice Admiral Viktor Bursuk.

    A series of ships of the project type 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov" limited to only four ships. It is planned to be completed by the end of 2022.

    Chief Advisor to the President of USC Viktor Chirkov ratedthe need of the Russian Navy in frigates of the project 22350 in 18 units. He made such a statement on August 22 at the round table "The Role of Shipbuilding in Strengthening Russia's Naval Potential and Its Economic Power" at the Forum-2018 forum. He also criticized the short series, calling them harmful to the industry and the fleet. Admiral Chirkov from May 2012 to April 2016 served as commander in chief of the Russian Navy.
    Help Mil.Press FlotProm

    Project 22350M frigates will have a displacement of about 8,000 tons. The Northern Shipyard will be able to build them if it completes the modernization of production facilities on time.

    Earlier it was reported that the Russian fleet needs about 10 ships of the project 22350M, which will take an intermediate position between the frigates of the traditional displacement of 4,500-5,000 tons and destroyers.

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    Post  hoom Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:27 am

    Hmm, looking pretty rough, not particularly finished there & wtf are those lighter rectangles in some of the Polment panels? Suspect

    Northern PKB began preliminary design of a frigate of the project 22350M
    Still only preliminary design? I thought we were expecting a Technical design project No
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    Post  Isos Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:36 am

    Hmm, looking pretty rough, not particularly finished there & wtf are those lighter rectangles in some of the Polment panels? Suspect


    Probably newer radars. When you have 10 years between each ship's construction it allows to improve it ... good thing as you get better systems but also bad because ships are not the same.

    Seriously they fucked up with the gorshkov class so badly.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:28 pm

    hoom wrote:Hmm, looking pretty rough, not particularly finished there & wtf are those lighter rectangles in some of the Polment panels? Suspect

    The radar panels are clad with protective covers.  That is to be expected for initial sea trials.

    Looking pretty rough?  That's just paintwork imperfections, and is pretty usual for Russian ships that get paint touch-ups in cold conditions which affects colour matching. Russians have far greater tolerance for such things than Western navies (who are more prone to preen their feathers and strut about like peacocks).

    Isos wrote:Seriously they fucked up with the gorshkov class so badly.

    Don't be a prat.  22350s have been delayed due to the lack of availability of MGTs and suffered some lengthy teething problems with their all-new weapons, radars and sensors.  The design and equipment fit appears to be perfectly sound.  Pls define what is "fucked up", or kindly desist with the idiotic trolling.
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    Post  kumbor Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:34 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    hoom wrote:Hmm, looking pretty rough, not particularly finished there & wtf are those lighter rectangles in some of the Polment panels? Suspect

    The radar panels are clad with protective covers.  That is to be expected for initial sea trials.

    Looking pretty rough?  That's just paintwork imperfections, and is pretty usual for Russian ships that get paint touch-ups in cold conditions which affects colour matching. Russians have far greater tolerance for such things than Western navies (who are more prone to preen their feathers and strut about like peacocks).

    Isos wrote:Seriously they fucked up with the gorshkov class so badly.

    Don't be a prat.  22350s have been delayed due to the lack of availability of MGTs and suffered some lengthy teething problems with their all-new weapons, radars and sensors.  The design and equipment fit appears to be perfectly sound.  Pls define what is "fucked up", or kindly desist with the idiotic trolling.

    Don`t be rude. Isos is only a small kid interested in naval technology, without knowledge and sources!
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    Post  Isos Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:01 pm

    Don't be a prat. 22350s have been delayed due to the lack of availability of MGTs and suffered some lengthy teething problems with their all-new weapons, radars and sensors. The design and equipment fit appears to be perfectly sound. Pls define what is "fucked up", or kindly desist with the idiotic trolling.

    A 132m ship supposed to be their naval backbone. They have like 2 "finished". They started this class in 2010 and in 2019 they have like 2 "build" but always testing them and 2 other under construction.

    They also mention Super Gorshkov while no one says what it is. They gave a funny maket with hundreds of VLS that is only a pure joke.

    And now they are back at the "let's build more normal gorshkov" because it's already hard to build a normal one, let alone a 10m bigger one ...

    Constructions of Grigorovitch and other corvetes are better and faster. Grigorovitch is almost the same size/weight with VLS too. They all had engine issues.


    So yeah this class is bullshit.
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    Post  Hole Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:23 pm

    How many times did someone explain that the production was slowed down because of the issues with the gas turbines? A hundred times? More? And still there are censored that won´t get it.
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    Post  Isos Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:41 pm

    Hole wrote:How many times did someone explain that the production was slowed down because of the issues with the gas turbines? A hundred times? More? And still there are censored that won´t get it.

    Engines can be installed at the end. They could have build the ships while engines are created.

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