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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

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    Post  Isos Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:20 pm

    https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/october-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6579-admiral-gorshkov-frigate-qualifies-poliment-redut-sam-against-air-surface-targets.html

    Nice article that describes poliment redut. It seems there is two long range missile 9M96E2 and 9M96E2-1 that have same capacities but not the weight and size.
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    Post  Labrador Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:52 pm

    Isos wrote:https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2018/october-2018-navy-naval-defense-news/6579-admiral-gorshkov-frigate-qualifies-poliment-redut-sam-against-air-surface-targets.html

    Nice article that describes poliment redut. It seems there is two long range missile 9M96E2 and 9M96E2-1 that have same capacities but not the weight and size.
    What size do one cellule ? and same for UKSK (i have 9 m long ) i search also for others Russians VLS all even old design exist a topic please ?
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    Post  hoom Tue Oct 23, 2018 5:34 pm

    9M96 shooting vid, presumably the previously noted exercise.

    Quite a bit of roll there, makes me curious about quite how much motion various VLS systems are actually capable of working in? (partly also because there has been some questions at Balancer about whether 22800 will actually be able to launch Kalibr in offshore conditions)
    Presumably they must be able to operate with quite a lot of motion or navies would have stuck with arm launchers but it strikes me I've never really seen VLS launches (including US ones) in notably rough weather.
    The old arm launchers at least were able to lock relative to the ship for loading & then operate stabilised like a gun mount pointing at target.

    The turnover to horizontal seems maybe a bit different/quicker than I remember from 20380 firings? Maybe just that we have a side angle.

    Couple of stills via Balancer, looks like 2 different versions used
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 3 23-6795301-strelba-pr-22350
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 3 23-6795045-22350-redoubt
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    Post  Hole Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:25 pm

    Launch looks fast.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:45 am

    AFAIK the TOR system just blows the missile up into the air and then the side thruster rocket motors in the nose fire a side thrust to yaw the missile in the direction of the target and then the opposite side rockets fire to stop the yaw and the main motor fires up to get the missile on its way... I would expect if the launcher is seriously moving the system would still be effective... the missile manouvers in flight so it does not need to point super accurate at precisely where the missile needs to go... a few degrees here or there can be compensated in flight...

    In a heavy roll I would be more worried about the sensors keeping a lock on a small manouvering target rather than how safe it is to launch...
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    Post  Isos Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:28 pm

    Can we expect pantsir instead of kashtan for the next gorshkovs being build ? It seems to be the same size as kashtan and is introduced on karakurt so it passed all the necessary tests (or will in a short period of time).
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    Post  Hole Fri Oct 26, 2018 6:36 pm

    I hope so.
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    Post  hoom Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:41 am

    Gorshkovs have Palma/Palash rather than Kashtan.
    Kasatonov at least is still using them.
    Palash/Palma don't have the automatic missile reload underneath the mount (apparently only manual reloads) & rumor has it the missiles its supposed to have don't work.

    22350M almost certainly will use Pantsir-M.


    Last edited by hoom on Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GarryB Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:26 pm

    Kashtan seems to be being replaced... either with the cheaper simpler Palash/Palma, which uses simple laser beam riding SOSNA missiles with a range of 10km, or the new Pantsir system with new missiles that are reloaded from below deck magazines...

    They are very close to introducing the SOSNA missiles into army service to replace the ZU-23-2 and SA-13/SA-9 systems.
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    Post  George1 Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:52 pm

    Second Admiral Gorshkov frigate nears completion

    Construction of the Russian Navy’s second Project 22350 frigate is almost complete, with the ship poised to begin factory trials in November, Severnaya Verf shipyard’s director general has told Jane’s .

    “The second Project 22350 frigate, Admiral Kasatonov , is now 99% complete,” Igor Ponomaryov said. “The first phase of the ship’s factory trials is scheduled for November, and both factory and state trials will be completed next year. We’re planning to deliver the ship to the navy by the end of 2019 or even earlier.”

    Construction of the third and fourth Project 22350 ships, Admiral Golovko and Admiral Isakov , is also well under way, he said.

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 3 44846082_1165442013609486_579062205404676096_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent.fath6-1

    https://www.janes.com/article/83458/second-admiral-gorshkov-frigate-nears-completion?fbclid=IwAR17mcI9Qcb1AXszOTd7EHscqtQTWj8EKCF9MxSuZhPV_CwbecqBltunSx0
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    Post  hoom Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:39 pm

    Apparently Navy is looking into ordering 2 or 4 more Gorshkovs unshaven
    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8432/

    If Gorshkov is actually working properly now & with 20386/22350M some way away it makes sense.
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:51 pm

    hoom wrote:Apparently Navy is looking into ordering 2 or 4 more Gorshkovs unshaven
    https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8432/

    If Gorshkov is actually working properly now & with 20386/22350M some way away it makes sense.


    Could it be that they are finally coming to their senses?

    If they do this it will be decision almost on par with ordering 6 more Borei-A subs in it's intelligence and wisdom!!!

    Stopping vessel production after couple of hulls (which they do routinely) is idiotic approach and if they finally managed to get these things to work they should definitely order as many as possible.

    4 for North Fleet and 4 for Pacific Fleet are more than enough to get Navy through rough patch until they get their stuff in order, one Gorshkov easily fills in for one Udaloy.

    Now they need to stop looking into ordering and start ordering.
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    Post  George1 Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:17 pm

    i remind that we have already 2 of 6 Gorshkovs ordered but not laid down yet.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:53 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Could it be that they are finally coming to their senses?

    If they do this it will be decision almost on par with ordering 6 more Borei-A subs in it's intelligence and wisdom!!!

    Stopping vessel production after couple of hulls (which they do routinely) is idiotic approach and if they finally managed to get these things to work they should definitely order as many as possible.

    4 for North Fleet and 4 for Pacific Fleet are more than enough to get Navy through rough patch until they get their stuff in order, one Gorshkov easily fills in for one Udaloy.

    Now they need to stop looking into ordering and start ordering.

    They don't really have much of a choice, the only other Frigates are the Grigorovich class which is just a heavily redesigned Kirvak and the Gepard class which is just too light weight.

    So that leaves the Gorshkov as the only viable modern Frigate for the future.
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:20 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:..............
    They don't really have much of a choice, the only other Frigates are the Grigorovich class which is just a heavily redesigned Kirvak and the Gepard class which is just too light weight.

    So that leaves the Gorshkov as the only viable modern Frigate for the future.

    I know but they were talking about discontinuing Gorshkovs and switching to Super-Gorshkovs (their usual MO)

    If this latest news about 2-4 more is true then it means that they finally dropped their usual BS method, at least for now
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    Post  George1 Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:25 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:..............
    They don't really have much of a choice, the only other Frigates are the Grigorovich class which is just a heavily redesigned Kirvak and the Gepard class which is just too light weight.

    So that leaves the Gorshkov as the only viable modern Frigate for the future.

    I know but they were talking about discontinuing Gorshkovs and switching to Super-Gorshkovs (their usual MO)

    If this latest news about 2-4 more is true then it means that they finally dropped their usual BS method, at least for now

    Super-Gorshkov will be actually a destroyer
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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:32 am

    George1 wrote:.........

    Super-Gorshkov will be actually a destroyer

    I know and will be ready for production God knows when

    Keep making standard ones until then
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    Post  Isos Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:47 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:.........

    Super-Gorshkov will be actually a destroyer

    I  know and will be ready for production God knows when

    Keep making standard ones until then

    I disagree totally.

    It iis supposed to still be a gorshkov. Same desin but longer, same systems, same radars, same weapons but more of them.

    The construction shouldn't be longer in this case. The 10 or 15m they add would take two or three months to be build. Structure isn't really a problem, it's the easiest part.

    System being the same means they already have everything in production so they will only have to order more of wires and VLS.

    Only issue would be the engine because it would need more powerfull ones. I think that's why they don't start this class.
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    Post  George1 Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:54 am

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:.........

    Super-Gorshkov will be actually a destroyer

    I  know and will be ready for production God knows when

    Keep making standard ones until then

    I disagree totally.

    It iis supposed to still be a gorshkov. Same desin but longer, same systems, same radars, same weapons but more of them.

    The construction shouldn't be longer in this case. The 10 or 15m they add would take two or three months to be build. Structure isn't really a problem, it's the easiest part.

    System being the same means they already have everything in production so they will only have to order more of wires and VLS.

    Only issue would be the engine because it would need more powerfull ones. I think that's why they don't start this class.

    maybe the engine is also the reason for not laid down more Gorshkovs from 2014 till now. Last one laid down in 2013
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    Post  hoom Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:54 am

    i remind that we have already 2 of 6 Gorshkovs ordered but not laid down yet.
    That order was originally 8 got shrunk to 6 then 4 by my understanding, so they're looking at reinstating the total order to 6 or 8.

    4 for North Fleet and 4 for Pacific Fleet are more than enough to get Navy through rough patch until they get their stuff in order
    Wouldn't be a bad thing.
    Probably not a bad idea to bump that to 6 each...

    Edit:
    It iis supposed to still be a gorshkov. Same desin but longer, same systems, same radars, same weapons but more of them.
    Is that actually officially stated somewhere?
    My understanding its just presumed its either that relatively low-effort improvement or it could also be a much more significant rework.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:38 am

    George1 wrote:maybe the engine is also the reason for not laid down more Gorshkovs from 2014 till now. Last one laid down in 2013

    MGT availability is absolutely the reason why more 22350s have not been laid down.

    Surface navy is low priority, and the Russians have decided that until the domestic MGTs are tested and certified, they will not invest in new hulls. Its a sensible approach, I mean who would advocate laying down new hulls and filling production slots with a bunch of new ships that lack engines? Its better to divert funds elsewhere and wait until supply issues are resolved.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:57 am

    Isos wrote:I disagree totally.

    It iis supposed to still be a gorshkov. Same desin but longer, same systems, same radars, same weapons but more of them.

    The construction shouldn't be longer in this case. The 10 or 15m they add would take two or three months to be build. Structure isn't really a problem, it's the easiest part.

    System being the same means they already have everything in production so they will only have to order more of wires and VLS.

    Only issue would be the engine because it would need more powerfull ones. I think that's why they don't start this class.

    What???

    Granted there is high degree of commonalty with the Gorshkov, especially with the weapon systems, but we are still looking at a considerable increase in size.
    And we have some new systems like the S-400 and the new Pantsirs.

    Seriously, the weapons load alone tells you that this is gonna be big, we have 15x8 UKSKs that's a 7+ fold increase in Cruise/AShM missiles alone, we got 24x8 Reduts a 6 fold increase in Short-to-Medium ranged AA missiles and 24 S-400 cells, each cell with at least 8 missile tubes each (Slava) so 24x8 Long-to-Very long ranged missiles (Yes, they could put 4 extra medium ranged missile in each tube).
    And 2 Pantsirs with reloading capabilities.

    A ship straight outta the deepest darkest nightmares of Western Naval officers.

    The SG is definitely the only feasible Destroyer for the Russian navy (thanks to the Gorshkov), but this ain't gonna be some few extra months.
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    Post  hoom Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:39 am

    we have 15x8 UKSKs...
    You mean that model a couple of pages back?
    While its '22350 styled' they either just slapped stupid amounts of weapons on the model for wow factor or its a Lider concept IMO.

    There is no way all that stuff could fit in 8,000ton.
    A straight doubling to 64* Redut, 32* UKSK & 2* Pantsir-M would be probably pushing it.
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    Post  AlfaT8 Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:50 am

    hoom wrote:
    we have 15x8 UKSKs...
    You mean that model a couple of pages back?
    While its '22350 styled' they either just slapped stupid amounts of weapons on the model for wow factor or its a Lider concept IMO.

    There is no way all that stuff could fit in 8,000ton.
    A straight doubling to 64* Redut, 32* UKSK & 2* Pantsir-M would be probably pushing it.

    It's the second model to show the 15x8 UKSKs, no reason to doubt it yet.
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    Post  hoom Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:53 am

    Its the same model twice, so yeah both times it had 15*8 UKSK Rolling Eyes

    120 UKSK cells is mental & there is no way thats possible on an 8Kton ship.
    Upgraded 24Kton Nakhimov will have 80.
    The pagoda mast Lider model for a ~17Kton ship has only 48 or 64 (depending on interpretation of hatches).

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