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    Russian Radar systems

    nemrod
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    Russian Radar systems - Page 8 Empty Request : Please could you identify this hardware

    Post  nemrod Mon May 19, 2014 4:01 pm

    This state of the art radar is a russian VHF radar. AESA/3D capacity ?
    Is it better than  S-band ? Or is it a complement ?


    Russian Radar systems - Page 8 9395ac327506953

    Thx for any help.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Mon May 19, 2014 6:17 pm

    It is part of NEBO-M complex. On this link you can read the basics about it. Russia usually tides one Nebo-M per S-400 regiment but Nebo-M is produced separately for Russian radio troops too.

    LINK

    LINK
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Mon May 19, 2014 11:36 pm

    That is what we call the "F-35's bad day".
    nemrod
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    Post  nemrod Wed May 21, 2014 6:11 am


    Thx friends.  Smile 
    BlackArrow
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    Post  BlackArrow Fri May 23, 2014 6:03 pm

    TR1 wrote:That is what we call the "F-35's bad day".

    But a good day for an EA-18 Growler.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri May 23, 2014 6:56 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:

    But a good day for an EA-18 Growler.

    Ah not sure, considering it does not carry larger antenna to jam VHF band.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Fri May 23, 2014 6:59 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    TR1 wrote:That is what we call the "F-35's bad day".

    But a good day for an EA-18 Growler.

    If you knew how this thing works and under what circumstances you would be far more reserved to say at least Very Happy
    BlackArrow
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    Post  BlackArrow Fri May 23, 2014 7:11 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    BlackArrow wrote:

    But a good day for an EA-18 Growler.

    Ah not sure, considering it does not carry larger antenna to jam VHF band.

    Jam? who said anything about jamming it? I mean destroy it.
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    Post  BlackArrow Fri May 23, 2014 7:12 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    BlackArrow wrote:
    TR1 wrote:That is what we call the "F-35's bad day".

    But a good day for an EA-18 Growler.

    If you knew how this thing works and under what circumstances you would be far more reserved to say at least Very Happy

    I am sure the people who operate the EA-18 and other such SEAD aircraft know very well how it works.
    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri May 23, 2014 7:15 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    Jam? who said anything about jamming it? I mean destroy it.

    This can be done without EA-18 right ? I wonder why should be EA-18 ? HARM capability ? Nah because HARM seeker is still too small to pick VHF wavelength. You may need more conventional means which will of course be met with those who guard the radar like TOR or Pantsyr.
    BlackArrow
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    Post  BlackArrow Fri May 23, 2014 7:26 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    BlackArrow wrote:
    Jam? who said anything about jamming it? I mean destroy it.

    This can be done without EA-18 right ? I wonder why should be EA-18 ? HARM capability ? Nah because HARM seeker is still too small to pick VHF wavelength. You may need more conventional means which will of course be met with those who guard the radar like TOR or Pantsyr.

    You don't need an anti-radiation type seeker to home in on a radar. GPS guided JDAMs can be used - even TV or IIR guided weapons can be used.

    I know that an AESA beast like NEBO series should be difficult to jam (you'd need a lot of power to begin with - before we even mention its frequency agility capability) - but the radars on TOR-M and Tunguska?
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Fri May 23, 2014 8:10 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:You don't need an anti-radiation type seeker to home in on a radar. GPS guided JDAMs can be used - even TV or IIR guided weapons can be used.

    And bomb what? In what way do you intend to find out where is something you want to bomb specially if we are talking about country like Russia?


    BlackArrow
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    Post  BlackArrow Fri May 23, 2014 8:51 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    BlackArrow wrote:You don't need an anti-radiation type seeker to home in on a radar. GPS guided JDAMs can be used - even TV or IIR guided weapons can be used.

    And bomb what? In what way do you intend to find out where is something you want to bomb specially if we are talking about country like Russia?



    To bomb the Nebo M system and its various radars, what did you think I was referring to being bombed? And were did I mention Russia. It's easy to locate a ground based air defence radar - do I have to explain to you why?
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Fri May 23, 2014 9:00 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    TR1 wrote:That is what we call the "F-35's bad day".

    But a good day for an EA-18 Growler.

    Good luck jamming it Very Happy.

    Or hitting its defensive assets that are specifically made to shoot down PGMs.
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    Post  BlackArrow Fri May 23, 2014 9:16 pm

    And how easy is it to jam the defensive assets? They have only got a limited amount of missiles you know.
    medo
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    Post  medo Fri May 23, 2014 9:34 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:And how easy is it to jam the defensive assets? They have only got a limited amount of missiles you know.

    Still far more than EA-18G. Nebo-M is highly mobile radar complex and it work inside IADS, so there will be quite a lot of S-300, S-400, Tor, Pantsir, etc around as well as fighter planes. Nebo-M is only one very capable element here.
    BlackArrow
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    Post  BlackArrow Fri May 23, 2014 10:08 pm

    medo wrote:
    Still far more than EA-18G. Nebo-M is highly mobile radar complex and it work inside IADS, so there will be quite a lot of S-300, S-400, Tor, Pantsir, etc around as well as fighter planes. Nebo-M is only one very capable element here.

    Quite a lot of S-300, S-400, Tor, Pantsir, etc - where?
    How many units of S-400 do you think exist in the world and how many short range AD systems are available to protect it? You seem to be talking about a lot of AD assets in one spot. how many missiles are carried on a Tor launcher unit, 8? An RAF Tornado can carry up to 12 Brimstone missiles. I don't doubt that that such a dense multi-layered air defence system can be overwhelmed quickly enough with enough decoys and and cheap missiles.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri May 23, 2014 10:36 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    TR1 wrote:That is what we call the "F-35's bad day".

    But a good day for an EA-18 Growler.

    I'm gonna let you in on a secret. The EA-18 and it's electronic warfare suite has been compromised according to the Pentagon:


    "F/A and EA-18"

    "Electronic Intelligence Processing"

    "Electronic Warfare systems"

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/a-list-of-the-us-weapons-designs-and-technologies-compromised-by-hackers/2013/05/27/a95b2b12-c483-11e2-9fe2-6ee52d0eb7c1_story.html


    ...So don't be so sure that the EA-18 may work as effectively against an advanced and capable enemy, and not like the poorly trained 3rd world military's that the Pentagon usually loves to pick fights with. *cough, Iraq, cough*
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Sat May 24, 2014 1:54 am

    BlackArrow wrote:To bomb the Nebo M system and its various radars, what did you think I was referring to being bombed?

    Nice.

    BlackArrow wrote:And were did I mention Russia.


    You did not need to. What other country has it?


    BlackArrow wrote: It's easy to locate a ground based air defence radar - do I have to explain to you why?

    Yes, please explain me in what ways and why?


    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat May 24, 2014 10:39 am

    You don't need an anti-radiation type seeker to home in on a radar. GPS guided JDAMs can be used - even TV or IIR guided weapons can be used.

    You do and you don't.

    To home in on the radar signal you do need an anti radiation type seeker, but in the wavelengths the radar operates you would need a missile with an enormous antenna... which is just not practical.

    To guide a weapon to destroy it you need to locate the target precisely, which most small aircraft can't do because their antennas are the wrong size to operate in the frequency it operates in. A satellite photo could give you the coordinates and it is a large target, but weapons like satellite guided missiles and bombs need to penetrate the IADS structure so a couple of TOR systems would prevent attacks effectively and a few S-400 batteries would deal with the launch platforms of those laser, satellite, TV, IIR guided bombs/missiles.

    I know that an AESA beast like NEBO series should be difficult to jam (you'd need a lot of power to begin with - before we even mention its frequency agility capability) - but the radars on TOR-M and Tunguska?

    Jamming performance decreases rapidly with distance... there is no point trying to jam TOR or Tunguska as they will be the last of your problems if NEBO is still operating. The whole idea of long range SAMs with long range radar protected by medium and short range SAMs is that the long range radar and SAMs take out enemy launch platforms at extended ranges, so only very long range weapons have a chance of engaging those long range SAMs and Radars. TOR or Tunguska would deal with any leakers... but these will generally be long range weapons that somehow slipped through... the chance of any jamming aircraft getting close enough to the TOR or Tunguska to effectively jam them is very low. Both TOR and Tunguska and Pantsir-S1 have operating modes that exclude jamming and an option too...

    You seem to be talking about a lot of AD assets in one spot. how many missiles are carried on a Tor launcher unit, 8? An RAF Tornado can carry up to 12 Brimstone missiles. I don't doubt that that such a dense multi-layered air defence system can be overwhelmed quickly enough with enough decoys and and cheap missiles.

    The new production TOR carries 16 ready to launch missiles in each vehicle with a smallest tactical element being a battery which consists of 4 launch vehicles. So one TOR battery will have 64 ready to launch SAMs. Brimstone is based on Hellfire so it is rather unlikely to get within launch range as the TOR battery will likely be co-located with at least an S-350 battery or an S-400 battery which will deal with enemy aircraft.

    NEBO wont operate on Russias borders, but will be positioned slightly back and use its range to scan for targets out to very long range with likely several layers of protection from ground and air elements.

    medo
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    Post  medo Sat May 24, 2014 12:49 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Still far more than EA-18G. Nebo-M is highly mobile radar complex and it work inside IADS, so there will be quite a lot of S-300, S-400, Tor, Pantsir, etc around as well as fighter planes. Nebo-M is only one very capable element here.

    Quite a lot of S-300, S-400, Tor, Pantsir, etc - where?
    How many units of S-400 do you think exist in the world and how many short range AD systems are available to protect it? You seem to be talking about a lot of AD assets in one spot. how many missiles are carried on a Tor launcher unit, 8? An RAF Tornado can carry up to 12 Brimstone missiles. I don't doubt that that such a dense multi-layered air defence system can be overwhelmed quickly enough with enough decoys and and cheap missiles.

    Pantsir have 12 missiles and 2 guns, Tor-M2U have 16 missiles. Also their basic unit is battery, so minimum 4 Tors or 6 Pantsirs in battery. Add to them medium and long range SAMs in their layered IADS as well as guns and MANPADs in wider area and fighter squadrons operating inside IADS, than you could get the picture. How many Tornados will come near Nebo-M radar through layered IADS with S-300, S-400, Buks, Tors, etc and squadrons of Su-30 and Su-35 in the air? Nebo-M is 1000 km range mobile early warning radar complex, but not the only one, as there are also various OTH radars, smaller early warning radars, portable radars, ELINT complexes, ECM complexes, visual observation network, AWACS planes, etc. Believe me, Russian and Chinese IADS are too hard nuts for US and NATO.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Sat May 24, 2014 5:20 pm

    BlackArrow wrote:And how easy is it to jam the defensive assets? They have only got a limited amount of missiles you know.

    Pantsir and Newer Tor's have optical guidance you know.... You cant jam that.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Thu May 29, 2014 10:59 pm

    Radar deliveries to Russian radio troops

    In the Southern Military District have adopted the latest radar "Approaching» S-band

    7 units of 48YA6 K1-S  thumbsup 
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    Post  dionis Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:30 am

    BlackArrow wrote:
    medo wrote:
    Still far more than EA-18G. Nebo-M is highly mobile radar complex and it work inside IADS, so there will be quite a lot of S-300, S-400, Tor, Pantsir, etc around as well as fighter planes. Nebo-M is only one very capable element here.

    Quite a lot of S-300, S-400, Tor, Pantsir, etc - where?
    How many units of S-400 do you think exist in the world and how many short range AD systems are available to protect it? You seem to be talking about a lot of AD assets in one spot. how many missiles are carried on a Tor launcher unit, 8? An RAF Tornado can carry up to 12 Brimstone missiles. I don't doubt that that such a dense multi-layered air defence system can be overwhelmed quickly enough with enough decoys and and cheap missiles.

    A full battery, as others have mentioned above, will have a fairly large amount of these various systems.

    A *Brimstone* armed Tornado is going to get shot out of the sky *long* before it gets anywhere near an S-300PMU or S-400 battery.

    60KM max range ASM vs. a 150-250KM range SAM? Is that a joke?!
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    Post  Asf Mon Jun 02, 2014 8:37 am

    They have only got a limited amount of missiles you know.
    Right, just throw more aircraft into the grinder - and the victory is yours.

    Seriously, new russian SAMs are heavy on ECCM.

    Quite a lot of S-300, S-400, Tor, Pantsir, etc - where?
    Actually, there are AA units of the Army with Tors and Buks and Air Defence forces with Pansirs, S-300/400 and AD airforces plus VVS. All those units work in a cooperation.


    Last edited by Asf on Mon Jun 02, 2014 11:04 am; edited 3 times in total

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