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GunshipDemocracy
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    Korean War 1950-53

    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:49 am

    If you would read the books you would know that the Sovietic MiGs only entered the war after the 2nd map, after the Chinese entry in the war.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:30 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News in more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.

    I know right, I'm so not ready for the DPRK News Agency stuff.


    so what is your source of knowledge then?

    From the top of my head, four nice books.

    L. Krylov and Y. Tepsurkaev, "Soviet MiG-15 Aces of the Korean War". Osprey Publishing, 2008
    R. P. Hallion, "The Naval Air War in Korea". University of Alabama Press, 2011
    R. Jackson, "Air War Korea". Airlife Publishing, 1998
    S. M. Jager, "Brothers at War: The Unending Conflict in Korea". Profile, 2013


    So actually mostly form US sources? and Korea is better in propaganda or US? just being curious.


    You know MiGs have no chances with US naval fighters :-)



    KiloGolf
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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:11 am

    eehnie wrote:If you would read the books you would know that the Sovietic MiGs only entered the war after the 2nd map, after the Chinese entry in the war.

    Maybe you should read them, as I did.
    Korean War was not just fancy planes and deployed grunts. It was also logistics, planning, preparation and military training.

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So actually mostly form US sources?

    No they're not government-sanctioned sources.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:54 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:So actually mostly form US sources?

    No they're not government-sanctioned sources.

    True but "free and independent media" are mostly Russo-haters in 90%, i by definition do not trust wester media until they prove otherwise.

    Best example - ivan was the Terrible because he killed like 10 times less people then one night in France in Paris in comparable times? well judge yourself.
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    Post  KiloGolf Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:It was a stalemate... neither side was able to force a win or anything like a win and both sides decided to stop fighting.

    No stalemate there. The North started the war by invading south of the 38th as they wanted to rule a "united Korea". Their invasion and all of its goals ultimately failed. It was a clumsy and difficult victory sure, as the opposite side was throwing too many bodies into the fight. But eventually retard-in-chief Kim didn't get his way (to rule all of Korea).
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:19 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:It was a stalemate... neither side was able to force a win or anything like a win and both sides decided to stop fighting.

    No stalemate there. The North started the war by invading south of the 38th as they wanted to rule a "united Korea". Their invasion and all of its goals ultimately failed. It was a clumsy and difficult victory sure, as the opposite side was throwing too many bodies into the fight. But eventually retard-in-chief Kim didn't get his way (to rule all of Korea).

    This is one example of Western Propaganda. Rewriting the history...
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:39 am

    No stalemate there.

    The north wanted to unify Korea under northern communist rule... they did not end up with what they wanted... therefore the only reason to sign a ceasefire agreement was because they could not change this.

    The South wanted to survive and were slaughtered by the north... it was only the arrival of UN forces that stopped the norths advance and reversed to a push in the opposite direction to a similar position that the north achieved against the south.

    The UN didn't want the new border to be on the 38th parallel... otherwise that is where they would have stopped and then demanded a peace agreement. They wanted a non communist Korea under south korean control. Had teh chinese not intervened they would have gotten that... but then if the UN had not intervened then the north koreans would have gotten what they wanted too.

    Enter the Chinese who pushed the UN forces back to just beyond the 38th parallel... they wanted the UN supported forces of South Korea further away from their border.

    You could say the North did not get what they wanted, the south managed to keep what they had, and the UN ended up with rather less than they wanted... only the Chinese got exactly what they wanted, but you say they lost...

    The North started the war by invading south of the 38th as they wanted to rule a "united Korea". Their invasion and all of its goals ultimately failed.

    Their invasion only failed because the UN intervened on the side of their enemy... they had basically defeated the south and then the US and her bitches stepped in.

    It was a clumsy and difficult victory sure, as the opposite side was throwing too many bodies into the fight. But eventually retard-in-chief Kim didn't get his way (to rule all of Korea).

    But then the UN force did not get what it wanted either... a non communist Korea... so they failed too... in fact they took most of the country only to be driven back to where everything started so their defeat is actually very comparable to their defeat of the North Korean forces... so you can say the effect of the Chinese forces on the forces of most of the western world was rather comparable to the effect of the UN forces on North Korea... and the effect of the North Koreans on the South Koreans was similar again...

    But you claim the only force that achieved its objectives and moved the UN force away from its border was the outmatched Chinese.... Amusing.
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:53 am

    GarryB wrote:
    No stalemate there.

    The north wanted to unify Korea under northern communist rule... they did not end up with what they wanted... therefore the only reason to sign a ceasefire agreement was because they could not change this.

    The South wanted to survive and were slaughtered by the north... it was only the arrival of UN forces that stopped the norths advance and reversed to a push in the opposite direction to a similar position that the north achieved against the south.

    The UN didn't want the new border to be on the 38th parallel... otherwise that is where they would have stopped and then demanded a peace agreement. They wanted a non communist Korea under south korean control. Had teh chinese not intervened they would have gotten that... but then if the UN had not intervened then the north koreans would have gotten what they wanted too.

    Enter the Chinese who pushed the UN forces back to just beyond the 38th parallel... they wanted the UN supported forces of South Korea further away from their border.

    You could say the North did not get what they wanted, the south managed to keep what they had, and the UN ended up with rather less than they wanted... only the Chinese got exactly what they wanted, but you say they lost...

    The North started the war by invading south of the 38th as they wanted to rule a "united Korea". Their invasion and all of its goals ultimately failed.

    Their invasion only failed because the UN intervened on the side of their enemy... they had basically defeated the south and then the US and her bitches stepped in.

    It was a clumsy and difficult victory sure, as the opposite side was throwing too many bodies into the fight. But eventually retard-in-chief Kim didn't get his way (to rule all of Korea).

    But then the UN force did not get what it wanted either... a non communist Korea... so they failed too... in fact they took most of the country only to be driven back to where everything started so their defeat is actually very comparable to their defeat of the North Korean forces... so you can say the effect of the Chinese forces on the forces of most of the western world was rather comparable to the effect of the UN forces on North Korea... and the effect of the North Koreans on the South Koreans was similar again...

    But you claim the only force that achieved its objectives and moved the UN force away from its border was the outmatched Chinese.... Amusing.

    Only one detail. South Korea also wanted a unified Korea under their rule. If the North reached not their goal, the South reached not their goal either.

    The war was a tie (with some big and painful defeats for the US in between).
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    Post  KiloGolf Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:16 am

    eehnie wrote:Only one detail. South Korea also wanted a unified Korea under their rule. If the North reached not their goal, the South reached not their goal either.

    Only one side tried to purse that political goal by invading the other side and starting a war.
    That was the North and they lost that war.

    North's invasion was very similar to what Sakasvili tried to do in S. Ossetia, minus the part that no major power supported him with boots on the ground or air force like the PRC did for DPRK.
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    Post  eehnie Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:45 am

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Only one detail. South Korea also wanted a unified Korea under their rule. If the North reached not their goal, the South reached not their goal either.

    Only one side tried to purse that political goal by invading the other side and starting a war.
    That was the North and they lost that war.

    North's invasion was very similar to what Sakasvili tried to do in S. Ossetia, minus the part that no major power supported him with boots on the ground or air force like the PRC did for DPRK.

    The President (dictator) of South Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    (before the war)

    However, both Kim Il-Sung and Syng-Man Rhee restlessly desired to unite the peninsula and they did not fear to use military force for this matter as neither one of them accepted the other’s ideology. Spies were executed when found across the border, and many gun-involved aggressions broke out near the 38th parallel; even though the incidents were “faint,” there was a “chain of violence,” between the North and South Korean armies and it almost reached up to the point of the Korean War.[6]

    Rhee and his South Korean officers greatly wanted to march into the North. He had spoke to his adviser Dr. Robert Oliver that “North Korea should be recaptured by the force of arms to fulfill the UN’s mandate that the Republic of Korea government is the only legitimate government,” and “to fulfill the ancient nationality of Korea.”[7]

    http://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/resource/modern-korean-history-portal/syngman-rhee

    (At the time of the war, from the transition between the 1st and 2nd map you posted until the 3rd map)

    The success of the Inchon landing on Sept. 15–16, ushered in a new phase of the war. Following the retaking of Seoul by the UNC X Corps on Sept. 28, MacArthur and Rhee made a triumphal entry, driving by motorcade to the gutted capitol building. Rhee sensed victory within his grasp, and he lobbied for an all-out drive to annihilate the North Korean armed forces and liberate the communist North. On Oct. 7, the U.N. General Assembly approved a resolution permitting punitive action against North Korea and calling for the unification of the Peninsula. With shouts of “On to the Yalu,” ROK troops poured across the 38th parallel. To the aged Rhee, a lifelong objective appeared in sight.

    Rhee Seeks to Unify Korea

    Rhee moved to capitalize on the U.N. advance across the parallel. As president, he believed it fell to him to appoint provisional governors in the Republic of Korea; he now began also to appoint governors to rule in his name over liberated areas of the North. But the United Nations ruled that his government had no authority north of the 38th parallel, and the General Assembly decreed that the government of a united Korea should be determined by U.N.-supervised elections throughout the country. Rhee bitterly opposed this ruling on the grounds that the legitimacy of the Republic of Korea had already been certified by a U.N. commission in 1948. Liberated areas of North Korea were nonetheless kept under military administration in accordance with the U.N. directive.

    Early in the war, Rhee effectively gave Truman an ultimatum. Much as he might wish that Truman would accept his views and make American policy coincide with Korean policy, Rhee intended to pursue what he felt the welfare of his country demanded. Rhee declared: “The government and people of the Republic of Korea consider this is the time to unify Korea, and for anything less than unification to come out of these great sacrifices of Koreans and their powerful allies would be unthinkable. The Korean government would consider as without binding effect any future agreement or understanding made regarding Korea by other states without the consent and approval of the government of the Republic of Korea.”

    Catastrophe confronted Rhee and his government in November when thousands of communist Chinese troops eviscerated four South Korean divisions near the Chongchon River, and again in November when Chinese forces repulsed a new U.N. offensive. The ominous shadows threatening Seoul on Christmas 1950, finally enveloped the ravaged city as the new year dawned, and on Jan. 4, 1951, communist forces once again occupied the South Korean capital. As both MacArthur and Rhee noted, it was a new war.

    Clear enough. South Korea, its president and government wanted to unify Korea under their rule. And they reached not the goal. Just like North Korea.
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    Post  KiloGolf Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:34 pm

    eehnie wrote: Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    There's a big difference between examining an invasion or wanting an invasion and actually going ahead with it.
    History has recorded the North invading the South.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:05 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote: Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    There's a big difference between examining an invasion or wanting an invasion and actually going ahead with it.
    History has recorded the North invading the South.

    From a techinical viewpoint, the Southern forces were the ones that went over the border occupying two villages and a city. It's a very complex situation which cannot be considered under a victim and aggressor point of view.

    https://books.google.be/books?id=-IbQvd13uToC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=haeju+occupation&source=bl&ots=cIxcKeElfG&sig=7GqmGnNjh-e59KxJJTUMJ_JqaV0&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir7qOx2rfQAhWMnBoKHaQzAfkQ6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=haeju%20occupation&f=false

    Fact is that even today the narrative of an Aggressive North Korea is funny because the DPRK is the weakest party in the fight.

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    Post  KiloGolf Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:27 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote: Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    There's a big difference between examining an invasion or wanting an invasion and actually going ahead with it.
    History has recorded the North invading the South.

    From a techinical viewpoint, the Southern forces were the ones that went over the border occupying two villages and a city. It's a very complex situation which cannot be considered under a victim and aggressor point of view.

    https://books.google.be/books?id=-IbQvd13uToC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=haeju+occupation&source=bl&ots=cIxcKeElfG&sig=7GqmGnNjh-e59KxJJTUMJ_JqaV0&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir7qOx2rfQAhWMnBoKHaQzAfkQ6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=haeju%20occupation&f=false

    Fact is that even today the narrative of an Aggressive North Korea is funny because the DPRK is the weakest party in the fight.


    Sure, but there's one thing to have a dispute about two villages and another to prepare some Army Group of forces, capture Seoul and push all the way to frickin Pusan.
    This has Sakasvilian vibes all over and even Stalin himself wasn't exactly bananas about Kim's vision down there.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:35 pm

    Sure, but there's one thing to have a dispute about two villages and another to prepare some Army Group of forces, capture Seoul and push all the way to frickin Pusan.
    This has Sakasvilian vibes all over and even Stalin himself wasn't exactly bananas about Kim's vision down there.

    The south attacking and occupying those areas is an act of war... just like Suck Arse Milli Vanili attacking the VDV base and the capital of South Ossetia was also an act of war.

    The difference is that the Russians had no reason to occupy Georgia, while the North Koreans wanted to destroy the corrupt government of the south and free the whole country.

    When the UN intervened on the South Koreans behalf they took that opportunity to get what they wanted... ie not just the land they had back but also all of north korea too under a south korean government.

    They probably would have gotten it but the Chinese intervened and pushed them back pretty much to the start lines at the 38th parallel.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:17 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote: Korea at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syngman_Rhee

    Both Rhee and Kim Il Sung wanted to unite the Korean peninsula under their respective governments

    https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~park25h/classweb/worldpolitics/analysisconflict.html

    There's a big difference between examining an invasion or wanting an invasion and actually going ahead with it.
    History has recorded the North invading the South.

    From a techinical viewpoint, the Southern forces were the ones that went over the border occupying two villages and a city. It's a very complex situation which cannot be considered under a victim and aggressor point of view.

    https://books.google.be/books?id=-IbQvd13uToC&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=haeju+occupation&source=bl&ots=cIxcKeElfG&sig=7GqmGnNjh-e59KxJJTUMJ_JqaV0&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir7qOx2rfQAhWMnBoKHaQzAfkQ6AEINjAD#v=onepage&q=haeju%20occupation&f=false

    Fact is that even today the narrative of an Aggressive North Korea is funny because the DPRK is the weakest party in the fight.


    Sure, but there's one thing to have a dispute about two villages and another to prepare some Army Group of forces, capture Seoul and push all the way to frickin Pusan.
    This has Sakasvilian vibes all over and even Stalin himself wasn't exactly bananas about Kim's vision down there.

    Once again, there's no doubt both sides wanted to get on with the ugly side. Both sides were prepared for offensive operations and both sides engaged in cross-border skirmishes. The problem is that we're looking at a casus belli. That was provided by the ROK and it was even published in front page in two of the most "hawkish" newspapers at the time.

    The morons in Seoul wanted to get the US involved, the morons in PyonYang knew that was the risk. Why would they have prepared that assault in the dead middle of the empty seat policy at the UN. There are some explanations (mainly Stalin wanting to have the attention out of the Berlin crisis, pulling the US is a costly war, it would wage with its own troops, fighting that final chapter of WW2 that was cut short by both the nuclear weapons but also by the Soviet decision to break the Japanese will by committing to the side of the US vs Japan and abandoning its neutrality).

    That the South Koreans fucked up by providing a Casus Belli for the DPRK, actually besting these same North Koreans plans for a Gleiwitz style op shouldn't be hidden by the broad consensus of a largely Colonial UN back in 1950.

    The Korean War is a Civil war inside a proxy War, there's little interest on finding victims and aggressors while until the 70's the regimes were broadly similar.
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    Korean War 1950-53 - Page 2 Empty About the myth of F-86 success, and the ridiculous kill ratio of 14:1

    Post  nemrod Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:14 pm

    The success of the soviet and Chinese Mig-15
    It is noteworthy to add that end of July 1953, China had 70 regiments, in fact, 27 air divisions, which represents more than 3.000 aircraft, with experiment and skilled pilots, thanks to soviet training. Mao was decided to free total Korea. Should Stalin died after 1955, nowadays South Korea might not exist, the US might be expelled out of the Korean peninsula.


    Between 1 November 1950 and 27 July 1953, Soviet fighter pilots in Manchuria flew 60,450 days and 2779 night combat sorties and fought in 1683 daytime group air battles and 107 individual night battles. 64th IAK's pilots scored 1097 victories as follows — 65 B-29s, seven B-26s, two RB-45s, one RB-50, two F-47s, 28 F-51s, 118 F-80s, 185 F-84s, 647 F-86s, 11 F-94s, one F4U, three F6Fs, one F3D and 26 Meteor F 8s. Total losses were 335 aircraft and 120 pilots, including 319 aircraft and 110 pilots in aerial combat. These figures are taken from official 64th IAK documentation, having initially been derived from reports created by the corps' divisions and regiments.
    https://ospreypublishing.com/soviet-mig-15-aces-of-the-korean-war
    About Chinese and North Korean Mig-15


    The PLAAF had flown 26.491 sorties over Korea and engaged in 366 battles, claiming to have shot down 211 F-86s, 72 F-84 and F-80 fighter-bombers, and 47 other types of plances. They also claimed hits on 95 other ennemy planes. On the other side, of the ledger, they acknowledged the loss of only 224 Mig-15s, 3 La-11s, and 4 TU-2 bombers(totalling 231), and damage 151 aircraft. Only 116 airmen were reported lost. In addition, 168 planes were lost due to other causes. As to their overall record for air-to-air kills, the Chinese claimed a victory ration of 1:1.43.
    https://www.amazon.com/Red-Wings-over-Yalu-Williams-Ford/dp/1585443409





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    Post  nemrod Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:10 pm

    Too many US historians had been depicting the conflict as civilized soldiers against barbarian human waves under-armed, with their officers fed up with the lives of their soldiers. The US retreated, but they failed to explain why. Too many people forget that RPC had been born just a few months before the conflict after a long struggle against Japanese occupiers, and Chang Kai Chaek supported by the West. In China, as in Korea, it was the mess, USSR had undergone heavy losses, due to barbaric Nazi aggression nearly 30 million deaths, dozens of millions of disabled, west of the Soviet Union was totally destroyed, Soviet economy was moribund. Meanwhile, in the USA nearly everything was OK, the possibility to train skilled pilots, as skilled soldiers were unlimited. In the beginning, Chinese pilots were not enough trained, the PLAAF organization had started just in early 1950. In these conditions, the task was easy for US pilots to down young Chinese under-trained, none experiment pilots, and they claimed their F-86 was superior. However, at the end of 1951, when the Chinese pilots became more trained, more experimented they were absolutely redoubtable for US Air Force. The superiority became to change the camp, and US pilots' superiority was more and more jeopardized, if not canceled. Unfortunately, when the Chinese became confident to overcome the US, there was the end of the war.
    Notice during this war, against soviet veteran world war II's pilots US pilots, had none superiority, but USSR had its own constraints, and could not do the war instead of Koreans and Chineses.
    In the ground at the beginning Chinese were armed with weapons retrieved from Chiang Kai-shek's army, however, once the USSR began to supply weapons like tanks, machine guns, guns, rifles, etc...then things started to change quickly at the expense of the US.

    The T-34 was at least equal as M26 Pershing, the JSII was at least equal as the M-36, moreover, the PPSh-41 was at least equal as their Thompson, the Mig-15 canceled any US close support, and the M-1939 37 mm, as the Dshk 12 mm forbid any fly below 6.000 meters. At the end of 1952 Chinese and North Koreans gathered a huge well-trained, well-armed, enough experimented army. Thus, Mao was enough confident to expel the US out of the Korean peninsula, unfortunately, Stalin died, and all the chance to free the Korean peninsula was....let's say postponed.

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