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    Korean War 1950-53

    max steel
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    Korean War 1950-53 Empty Re: Korean War 1950-53

    Post  max steel Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:57 pm

    Why korean war started ? Can anyone explain.
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    Post  Guest Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:05 pm

    max steel wrote:Why korean war started ? Can anyone explain.
    Proxy War is the simplest explanation. USSR and the US were competing for influence.
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:27 pm

    max steel wrote:Why korean war started ? Can anyone explain.

    AHahahahahaha. You want the official reason of the real reason?

    Official reason was DPRK trying to reunify the whole peninsula by force. The real reason was that the South Korean "regime" failed to insure democratic elections and needed to weed off non-Communist opposition. That was done by lumping both groups in one and calling them terrorists. As the democratic opposition to the Synghman Rhee RDC puppet regime was easier to pick off, the one that remained was basically and early version of the Viet Minh. These chaps were, unlike the democratic guys who got mauled, heavily armed and supported by the Soviet backed regime. However the North Koreans overdone it and Cuntman Rhee benefited greatly by systematically attacking student unions, worker unions and even local communities who would reject former Japanese collaborators.

    This called great distress among the Korean population already separated by an artificial rift between South and North. At that point Rhee devised a stupid move, which was backed by the US. Martial Law. This opened to a de facto South Korean civil war which was lightly supported by the Soviets. At that time they were busy helping dem Chinese Commies smash the KMT.

    The South insurgency died off mostly due to the extreme diligence of the US to litterally test some of the most vilest approaches to COIN, notably the pioneering of napalm usage and well and paddy poisoning by aerosols. That, while killing off the insurgency, also caused whole famines and unrest (Jeju Massacre being one of the most infamous incidents). That was interpreted by the newly founded DPRK as a sign of things to come. Prematurely they opted for a direct invasion plan.

    Which they enacted in 1949, trying to avoid scrutiny by the USSR. However Stalin who wanted a showdown anyway hoping that would release steam off the Chinese situation gave the nod for a low-brow operation. This again was overdone by Kim Il Sung. He waited until the US troops moved out of South Korea and then attacked. In a pretty spectacular fashion rightly understanding that the West can't train ideologically alien people, the almost won the game. Then the US (with UN mandate) intervened (that empty chair policy from Stalin...) and pushed back the DPRK forces in a very decisive manner. This happened because Kim IL Sung didn't fully appreciate the capabilities of the US and the real intention behind that mandate. Which was a Godsend green light to kill off the DPRK.

    And the rest is history.
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    Post  max steel Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:44 pm

    How usa got un mandate knowing both china and russia were permanent members of unsc ?

    Un forces were kicked out of north korea with china's troop
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:21 pm

    max steel wrote:How usa got un mandate knowing both china and russia were permanent members of unsc ?

    Un forces were kicked out of north korea with china's troop

    It wasn't "Red China" at the UN, but the KMT in Taiwan/Formosa that was awarded the seat as part of the "Allied forces". And this worked until 1960. Then Sanity was restored...
    As for the Soviet, well I told you google Empty Chair policy by the USSR. In protest of the 'Allied' actions in Berlin, Uncle Joe decided it would be good to leave the UN seat vacant...

    Retrospectively, UN mandate or not, that wouldn't have stopped the US who had a secret agreement with S. Rhee.
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    Korean War 1950-53 Empty Some facts about PLA of 1950:

    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:13 pm

    Some facts about PLA of 1950:
    - Very little tanks and artillery
    - No air cover until Soviet entry into the war
    - Outdated command and control. No radios below regimental level, no telephone lines below battallion.
    - Few maps. Often regimental commanders did not even know what terrain is in front of them
    - Deficient recon
    - No mechanization.
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:19 pm

    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.

    Korean War 1950-53 Ah27_koreanwarm

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    Post  eehnie Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:37 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.

    Korean War 1950-53 Ah27_koreanwarm

    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:41 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.

    Korean War 1950-53 Ah27_koreanwarm

    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.

    Depends what you understand as "entering". Both the Soviets and the Chinese were involved from day 1. And the UN forces always had the sea on their backs, unlike the commie Norks and Chinese that had two metropolitan powers over the border. Pushed back twice is what happened and had it not been for politicians and reluctant western leaders, fearing further escalation (an unfounded fear imo, esp after Stalin's death), the UN could have easily reached the Yalu for a second time. And secured it for good. Quite comfortably.
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    Post  eehnie Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:50 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.

    Korean War 1950-53 Ah27_koreanwarm

    Twice? What? China entered in the war at the time of the second map, and stopped this offensive. China moved the front back to the South for the 3rd and 4th maps.

    Depends what you understand as "entering". Both the Soviets and the Chinese were involved from day 1. And the UN forces always had the sea on their backs, unlike the commie Norks and Chinese that had two metropolitan powers over the border. Pushed back twice is what happened and had it not been for politicians and reluctant western leaders, fearing further escalation (an unfounded fear imo, esp after Stalin's death), the UN could have easily reached the Yalu for a second time. And secured it for good. Quite comfortably.

    Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    North Korea attacked South Korea. the US and the UN entered in the war at the time of the first map. China entered at the the time of the second map.

    China forced between the 2nd and the 3rd map the biggest retreats of the US in their history. And they were not alone. If you want we can detail which countries were in the UN coalition.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:51 pm

    havok wrote: Like the man's comment about the movie Independence Day was really professional.

    at your level or professionalism and admiral Kirby´s too Smile


    higurashihougi wrote:
    havok wrote:[What Tolkachev confirmed was that the Soviet air defense system had no radar coverage that could reliably detect low altitude flyers, let alone a flight of F-111s determined to penetrate Soviet airspace with tools designed to make such detection even more difficult.


    And what are his reasons and proofs ?

    C´mon muricans need no proves ! +look at this lightweight and short Psaki called admiral Kirby Razz Razz Razz he is th ebest proof to what i say Smile
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:55 pm

    eehnie wrote:Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    Correct and even that, 3 million man force got spectacularly pushed back to the 38th within a month or so. Mao got his son wasted during that blunder of theirs. The fighting ability of the Chinese from the '50s till the late '70s was poor, Soviets knew that. Hence Soviet-backed and trained Vietnam massacred them in '79. Vietnam got to keep Cambodia till 1989 too while China tried to compensate by allying with... USA. lol1


    Last edited by KiloGolf on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  eehnie Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Entering the own trops. The Chinese infantry divissions crossed the borders at the time of the second map.

    Correct and even that, 3 million man force got pushed back to the 38th eventually. Mao got his son wasted during that blunder of theirs. The fighting ability of the Chinese from the '50s till the late '70s was poor, Soviets knew that. Hence Soviet-backed and trained Vietnam massacred them in '79.

    These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:01 pm

    The Chinese still had to be admired for what they did.

    I outlined all weaknesses of PLA in my last post, their army was almost at WW1 level (minus the industrial potential of an average WW1 participant). Their victories are very remarkable even if they needed 3x more man and 5x more casualties to achieve that.
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:03 pm

    eehnie wrote:These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.

    Nope. They only had to push back as allied Korean units were loosing the plot and they were not prepared to face off with an Army of millions.

    Eventually they came out on top quite swiftly, pushing all these millions to the 38th and forcing the commies to stop the war that they started. Remember major US deployment started with the Pusan pocket. Fast forward to 2016 South Korea is global economic power house and regional military power. While the North is a poor, deplorable wasteland.

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    Post  eehnie Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:32 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.

    Nope. They only had to push back as allied Korean units were loosing the plot and they were not prepared to face off with an Army of millions.

    Eventually they came out on top quite swiftly, pushing all these millions to the 38th and forcing the commies to stop the war that they started. Remember major US deployment started with the Pusan pocket. Fast forward to 2016 South Korea is global economic power house and regional military power. While the North is a poor, deplorable wasteland.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Onjong

    Result: Chinese victory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Unsan

    Result: Chinese victory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ch%27ongch%27on_River

    Result: Decisive Chinese victory

    Territorial changes: Communists regain control of all areas north of the 38th parallel

    They history related by the losers (US) of these battles.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:42 pm

    eehnie wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Onjong

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Unsan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ch%27ongch%27on_River

    They history related by the losers (US) of these battles.

    And? Some battles =/= all battles =/= the war.
    UN still came out on top. Look at today's border in Korea.
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    Post  eehnie Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:02 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Onjong

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Unsan

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Ch%27ongch%27on_River

    They history related by the losers (US) of these battles.

    And? Some battles =/= all battles =/= the war.
    UN still came out on top. Look at today's border in Korea.

    You said no, and it was yes. Big and painful defeats for the US in the transition from the second to the third map. And also for all their allies. Just after the entry of China in the war.


    Last edited by eehnie on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:05 pm

    eehnie wrote:You said no, and it was yes. Big and painful defeats for the US in the transition from the second to the third map. And also for all their allies.

    What? Nope. I said the commies were pushed back twice, as it happened.
    Korea is not a US defeat, it's a western success story.
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    Post  eehnie Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:24 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:hahahaah... yeah, those outmatched Chinese pushed the UN forces all the way back to the 38th parallel... what part of that makes them outmatched?

    Part where they got pushed back to the 38th twice.

    This was false. The Chinese entered in the war at the time of the second map.

    KiloGolf wrote:
    eehnie wrote:These numbers are not clear but as said China forced the biggest retreat of the US in their history, between the second and the third map. Big and painful defeats for the US there. For the US and for all the countries supporting them with men in the frontline.

    Nope. They only had to push back as allied Korean units were loosing the plot and they were not prepared to face off with an Army of millions.

    Eventually they came out on top quite swiftly, pushing all these millions to the 38th and forcing the commies to stop the war that they started. Remember major US deployment started with the Pusan pocket. Fast forward to 2016 South Korea is global economic power house and regional military power. While the North is a poor, deplorable wasteland.

    And this was false too. The Chinese defeated the troops of the US and their allies. Big and painful defeats for them.
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:02 pm

    eehnie wrote:This was false. The Chinese entered in the war at the time of the second map.

    It was true as the communist bloc (part of it was Chinese from day 1) was pushed back twice.

    eehnie wrote:And this was false too. The Chinese defeated the troops of the US and their allies. Big and painful defeats for them.

    Whatever you say lol1
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    Post  Hannibal Barca Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:45 pm

    Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News is more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:51 pm

    Hannibal Barca wrote:Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News in more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.

    I know right, I'm so not ready for the DPRK News Agency stuff.

    Korean War 1950-53 1ef6pt
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:39 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News in more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.

    I know right, I'm so not ready for the DPRK News Agency stuff.


    so what is your source of knowledge then?
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:06 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    Hannibal Barca wrote:Please don't ridicule yourself in such a way. People here know a thing or two about military matters. FOX News in more adequate environment for such a level of discussion.

    I know right, I'm so not ready for the DPRK News Agency stuff.


    so what is your source of knowledge then?

    From the top of my head, four nice books.

    L. Krylov and Y. Tepsurkaev, "Soviet MiG-15 Aces of the Korean War". Osprey Publishing, 2008
    R. P. Hallion, "The Naval Air War in Korea". University of Alabama Press, 2011
    R. Jackson, "Air War Korea". Airlife Publishing, 1998
    S. M. Jager, "Brothers at War: The Unending Conflict in Korea". Profile, 2013

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