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    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 23, 2020 8:13 am

    What are you talking about.... both have the other under economic sanctions... as per orders from Washington...

    Why?

    Was the EU respecting international law when they bombed Serbia over Kosovo... how about your attack on Libya and murder of Gadaffi?

    Which International law allows EU and US special forces to train terrorists in Syria against the wishes of the Syrian government?

    Funny how respect for international law is only a one way street...

    Because it's not all black or white. If they really didn't care about their relations and were so cared by kosovo and Libya they would have used their nuks and obliged nato to stay out of there. Yet they are making lot of money with EU, could stop Libyan war but are more happy to support Turkey against Nato, could go in China harms and give them everything they wabt like su-57, ICBM... but they are not.

    Russia has interests and respect laws, at least economic laws. Even US respect them. Yes those have some limits and sometimes you need to go over them but when they do that they do it with a plan and analyze the risks. Russian aren't going to risk to pay billions for copying a ship that will cost them billions too when they cab do something on their own.
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    Post  dino00 on Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:59 pm

    Russian helicopter carriers will become floating headquarters

    The capabilities of the Russian helicopter carriers of Project 23900 - "Ivan Rogov" and "Mitrofan Moskalenko" - will significantly expand, Izvestia sources in the military department and the military-industrial complex reported on July 23

    In the course of construction, the universal amphibious assault ships (UDC) will receive the latest long-range communication systems, automated control systems and satellite station terminals


    Full Article
    https://iz.ru/1039189/roman-kretcul-bogdan-stepovoi-aleksei-ramm/v-morskoi-boi-rossiiskie-vertoletonostcy-stanut-plavuchimi-shtabami

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    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:54 pm

    from RuNet....Some differences from the Mistrals that we know of apart from the larger dimensions...

    In contrast to the Mistral, the Russian “Priboy” engine compartment is divided into two isolated watertight compartments. Project 23900 has fire protection systems for fuel tanks. And in terms of seaworthiness, it is designed for operation in northern latitudes.

    “Mistral” is designed to base 16 multi-purpose helicopters, 4 landing boats, and transport up to 450 marines with 60 units of light armoured vehicles (jeeps or APCS, if purely trucks — up to 70 units) or with 13 tanks of the AMX-56 “Leclerc” type. Time at sea — up to 30 days. If the equipment is not taken, then with a time at sea of 10 days, the Frenchman is able to take on board up to 900 troops with only light weapons.

    The Russian project 23900 was designed for a full-time amphibious force of 1,000 people, with 75 armoured vehicles. With a time at sea of 60 days. There are 20 helicopters and 6 landing boats on-board. The crusing range is 6,000 nautical miles.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:24 pm


    Are there any chances they could display scale model on Navy Day?

    They did something similar with Gren 2
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:23 pm

    They need to build more escort class ships they don't have many ships suitable for this role and their surface fleet is stretched thin as it is.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:45 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:They need to build more escort class ships they don't have many ships suitable for this role and their surface fleet is stretched thin as it is.

    All naval problems they have would have been solved if they just started building Gorshkovs in additional shipyard

    As for these particular ships I don't think escorting them would be an issue, they're just LHD not CVNs and it's unlikely they'll be doing any transoceanic ops

    Black Sea and Mediterranean for first two, should they build more afterwards then they would need to seriously cranck up the escorts

    But like I said, another shipyard for Gorshkovs and problem solved




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    Post  hoom on Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:50 am

    Really not a great CGI pic.
    The plate looks more reasonably proportioned.

    Notable points:
    Plate shows azipod propulsion, ppl were assuming conventional shafted props recently.

    Dunno wtf they're thinking with that low sponson, looks like the first offshore storm its going to lose all those liferafts & boats.
    On Balancer forum there is some suggestion that its for landing craft to dock alongside & load troops from the sponson, potentially also landing craft/pontoon storage in transit.
    If just liferaft storage it should be more like 2/3 up the side not 2/3 down.

    Still fairly unclear but area in-front of the island looks confirmed as a cargo storage area with a crane there.

    Really not understanding the apparent placement of that Pantsir-M on the foredeck (& non-obvious placement of any others)
    One on each corner in the lowered cut-outs or raised mounts ahead/behind the island able to shoot clear above deck would make more sense.
    Suggestion of mixed Kashtan + Pantsir-M armament makes 0 sense.


    Ooh here's finally a clearer shot of the poster shown to Putin
    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 4 EdixDb0WAAAiCDZ?format=png&name=900x900
    Clearly the blue is containers. (certainly in good places for various container mounted weapons but also bear in mind that these ships are likely to spend most of their active time delivering supplies to remote bases/outposts/civil emergencies)
    Has a Pantsir-M/Palma just below deck level on starboard aft corner.
    Does show the sponson but a much safer ~1/2 hull height.
    Shows conventional prop-shafts.

    So there is a lot of similarity but also significant differences between the Putin display poster & the laying down version.

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:13 am

    There is an export version of it

    An export version of what?

    You don't even know what it looks like and are just guessing it looks like Mistral, but that would not prove anything even if they did look similar...most flat deck ships look similar.

    There is an export version of it so you know and now you changed the subject to "how can they prove it" which is a different matter, but it seems we reached an understanding.

    You have to prove it is a copy first, and saying even if it is a copy they have to prove it is not changing the subject, you can't just say it is a copy without even seeing it, that wont hold up in any court... so how is any court going to determine what constitutes a copy? To see the designs of both vessels. Russia is hardly going to hand over to a European court the schematics of its newest naval vessels... any more than the French would hand over the designs of the Mistrals to Russia if Russia wasn't buying some.

    If they really didn't care about their relations and were so cared by kosovo and Libya they would have used their nuks and obliged nato to stay out of there.

    Again, you mistake Russia for the west.... Russian nukes are for self defence, not to bully other countries into submission.

    If they really cared about EU relations they would have withdrawn their peacekeepers from South Ossetia and let Georgia attack, and of course would have withdrawn peacefully from the Crimea and let Sevastopol become a new major HATO navy base...

    Russian actions in those two places seriously upset the EU agenda of surrounding and restricting Russia, but they don't seem sorry...

    Yet they are making lot of money with EU, could stop Libyan war but are more happy to support Turkey against Nato, could go in China harms and give them everything they wabt like su-57, ICBM... but they are not.

    They are making less and less money with the EU and the EU with its stupid sanctions policy directed from Washington is making less and less money in Russia too... Russia is fighting to provide cheap gas energy to the EU and only Germany seems half interested in helping them... personally I would love to see them redirect that gas pipe to Kaliningrad and they can liquify the gas and ship it from there to Germany...


    Russia has interests and respect laws, at least economic laws. Even US respect them. Yes those have some limits and sometimes you need to go over them but when they do that they do it with a plan and analyze the risks. Russian aren't going to risk to pay billions for copying a ship that will cost them billions too when they cab do something on their own.

    They are not going to copy the Mistral... it had some features they liked and it was going to be ready very quickly, but then France reneged on the deal.

    Their plan B is going to take much longer and it might include Mistral like features but by making it themselves they can remove and change all the things they didn't like and make it much more suitable for them. The cost is that it is going to take a lot longer to get them operational but what choice do they have... France has not given them any alternative.


    The Russian project 23900 was designed for a full-time amphibious force of 1,000 people, with 75 armoured vehicles. With a time at sea of 60 days. There are 20 helicopters and 6 landing boats on-board. The crusing range is 6,000 nautical miles.

    Cruising range is not important... it can be refuelled enroute... in 60 days it could pretty much land troops anywhere on the planet...

    They need to build more escort class ships they don't have many ships suitable for this role and their surface fleet is stretched thin as it is.

    They would need Destroyer escorts for this sort of ship, but material supply ships would also be needed to support operations.

    60 days at sea for a deployment means excellent reach but initially I suspect these ships will be practising along the coasts of Russia in the arctic and far east initially...

    Still fairly unclear but area in-front of the island looks confirmed as a cargo storage area with a crane there.

    Cargo storage there does not make any sense either... what do you think is in those crates?

    Food... ammo for the landing forces, equipment for the landing forces?

    Why put it on the deck?

    Clearly the blue is containers. (certainly in good places for various container mounted weapons but also bear in mind that these ships are likely to spend most of their active time delivering supplies to remote bases/outposts/civil emergencies)

    It is a stupid place to put containers... to move those containers around you use a crane... look at where the crane is.... The only advantage of having crates there is it is out of the flight line and if there was a crane there they could be loaded on to and up off from a ship that has come alongside... without the crane it makes no sense at all.

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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:15 pm


    Some more tea leaves readouts:

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 4 24-8871141-45645

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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Sat Jul 25, 2020 1:35 am

    GarryB wrote:

    They would need Destroyer escorts for this sort of ship, but material supply ships would also be needed to support operations.


    Destroyer escort for a landing ship? Russia needs destroyers for the northern and pacific fleets first and then then need missile cruisers aswell.

    Then ofcourse we have to consider that the Russian style of shipbuilding that involves equipping ships with far more pieces of far more advanced equipment does not lend itself well to the pindostanski style of popping out dozens of simple rocket barges at once so Russia is unlikely to get 100+ destroyers any time soon.

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    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 25, 2020 3:00 am

    Some more tea leaves readouts:
    Nice.
    They even tea-leaved in a ski-jump.
    Hopefully at least one off the lifts can go down to the upper vehicle deck -> allow it to be used for extra hangar at least in theoretical STOL version.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 25, 2020 4:46 am

    Some more tea leaves readouts:

    The thing is that if they actually wanted to go for VSTOL fighters a ski jump ramp would be a must to maximise performance from a small deck...

    They even tea-leaved in a ski-jump.

    I am not seeing that...

    Destroyer escort for a landing ship? Russia needs destroyers for the northern and pacific fleets first and then then need missile cruisers aswell.

    These helicopter carriers will be based in the northern and pacific fleets...

    Frigates will remain largely coastal despite having more fire power than cold war destroyers, they lack the size and endurance for longer missions, but destroyers and cruisers will have even better fire power and enough air defence capacity to not just defend themselves but also other ships in the group... which is what landing ships need.

    Then ofcourse we have to consider that the Russian style of shipbuilding that involves equipping ships with far more pieces of far more advanced equipment does not lend itself well to the pindostanski style of popping out dozens of simple rocket barges at once so Russia is unlikely to get 100+ destroyers any time soon.

    Russia has no need for 100s of destroyers, why piss away money building and operating those when if they need an arsenal ship they can hire a cargo ship and just load suitable containers on it...

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    Post  hoom on Sat Jul 25, 2020 6:32 am

    I am not seeing that...

    Yellow lined
    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 4 6DTOKra
    It is of course only someones guess.
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:24 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:They need to build more escort class ships they don't have many ships suitable for this role and their surface fleet is stretched thin as it is.

    I think as long as this ship has very good anti-aircraft protection, it can be escorted by one or two corvettes, but the real escort will be a nuclear sub lurking around. Recon can be done via sattelite and drones. Anyone causes probs and the Yassen class will send them to meet Davy Jones.
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:37 am

    Isos wrote:
    No they can't. They signed a contract to not use the ToT to create a ship that can compete with the Mistral on the international market. They also had to destroy all the documents they got to build their part of the mistral.

    Producing the same ship with minor changes means they used the ToT which was forbiden by the contract.

    If they do it French can sue them and ask for a big amount of money.

    So you really think the French can go to court and demand to inspect a Russian military vessel so they can prove intellectual property was stolen? You think they can demand to see the software code base for a military system? The Russians really wanted to get ship building technology and methods from the French who are pretty good at this stuff. That they got. They also got a lot of expertise for laying out the ship, got to see what did and did not work in the Mistrals The French still were able to build 2 ships and sell them while the Americans had to foot the bill, so they are quite happy. They know Russia cannot even build enough ships for domestic consumption so they have little fear of export competition. They have not lost a lot and gained the fact that to Mistrals are prowling around the Middle east making all the other despots want one.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:59 am

    mnztr wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:They need to build more escort class ships they don't have many ships suitable for this role and their surface fleet is stretched thin as it is.

    I think as long as this ship has very good anti-aircraft protection, it can be escorted by one or two corvettes, but the real escort will be a nuclear sub lurking around. Recon can be done via sattelite and drones. Anyone causes probs and the Yassen class will send them to meet Davy Jones.

    Corvettes aren't a suitable escort for these ships at all, these ships are built and designed for long-range voyage and operations far from russia.

    You will need 10k Destroyers for proper escort duty.
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    Post  mnztr on Sat Jul 25, 2020 10:04 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Corvettes aren't a suitable escort for these ships at all, these ships are built and designed for long-range voyage and operations far from russia.

    You will need 10k Destroyers for proper escort duty.

    Some of the enlarged versions of the corvette are being rejigged to be able to handle open ocean voyages. The real escort will the nuclear subs. They can shadow from a distance and their reach will allow them to destroy any surface threats.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:25 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Corvettes aren't a suitable escort for these ships at all, these ships are built and designed for long-range voyage and operations far from russia.

    You will need 10k Destroyers for proper escort duty.

    Some of the enlarged versions of the corvette are being rejigged to be able to handle open ocean voyages. The real escort will the nuclear subs. They can shadow from a distance and their reach will allow them to destroy any surface threats.

    The ships you speak of are still to short-range for a task like this.

    Nuclear subs aren't much of an escort only against other submarines. They cannot do jack against fighters etc,
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:54 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:They need to build more escort class ships they don't have many ships suitable for this role and their surface fleet is stretched thin as it is.

    I think as long as this ship has very good anti-aircraft protection, it can be escorted by one or two corvettes, but the real escort will be a nuclear sub lurking around. Recon can be done via sattelite and drones. Anyone causes probs and the Yassen class will send them to meet Davy Jones.

    Corvettes aren't a suitable escort for these ships at all, these ships are built and designed for long-range voyage and operations far from russia.

    You will need 10k Destroyers for proper escort duty.
    7500 or 8000 tons GorshkovM would also be appropriate for it, if they have similar range and endurance of the Udaloy class antisub destroyers (which have the same displacement and probably near the same lenght of 22350M).

    In the meanwhile a mix of of baseline gorskhov frigates, together with supply ships and tankers, could also fulfill the role, especially if accompanied by some modernised udaloys..
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    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:27 am

    GarryB wrote:

    It is a stupid place to put containers... to move those containers around you use a crane... look at where the crane is.... The only advantage of having crates there is it is out of the flight line and if there was a crane there they could be loaded on to and up off from a ship that has come alongside... without the crane it makes no sense at all.

    I would have thought that it is more likely that they will use the skeleton truck based container lift vehicles rather than cranes to move containers around the ship.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 26, 2020 6:37 am

    Yellow lined

    It is the wrong shape to be effective...

    The image looks to me like they have taken two line drawings and super imposed them over another drawing, with little care for reality...

    Even if they revealed a VSTOL fighter programme right now there is no way it would be in service in time to operate from one of these ships...

    I think as long as this ship has very good anti-aircraft protection, it can be escorted by one or two corvettes, but the real escort will be a nuclear sub lurking around. Recon can be done via sattelite and drones. Anyone causes probs and the Yassen class will send them to meet Davy Jones.

    The problem is that those shipping crates replaced with Redut launchers is enough to protect the ship but you need rather more well protected ships to also defend the airspace over the landing area... you need a fixed wing aircraft carrier (Kuznetsov) and also a few destroyers and cruisers if you have them to have a solid attack and defence capacity.

    Used in the Kuriles they could use land based fighters, but further afield they need to bulk up their navy with bigger ships... upgraded and new.

    This will be an incentive to build 36 Destroyers and perhaps 8-16 cruisers in the 20K ton weight range.

    Some of the enlarged versions of the corvette are being rejigged to be able to handle open ocean voyages. The real escort will the nuclear subs. They can shadow from a distance and their reach will allow them to destroy any surface threats.

    Corvettes don't have the endurance or the available number of air defence missiles to protect anything other than themselves.

    In the 6-10 years it will take to get these carriers into the water they will have had time to build Frigates and get Destroyers into production too.

    The whole purpose with the modular design and standardisation and multirole design is so that production can be standardised and ramped up to reasonable speed in a number of shipyards at once.

    I would have thought that it is more likely that they will use the skeleton truck based container lift vehicles rather than cranes to move containers around the ship.

    Not much value in moving the around the ship... unless they are there for ballast. Smile

    Bringing on material from ships along side might make some sense but it is a landing ship... surely bringing stuff in on landing ships on a trailer and then collecting the material in the well and driving it to where it is needed makes more sense... the only deck lifts I can see are narrow and are designed for helicopters and likely would be totally unsuitable for shipping crates moved from the deck to the hangar and landing vehicle well inside the ship...

    If they are shipping crates they are not even 1/3rd the height of the Helix helicopters shown on deck...
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    Post  hoom on Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:31 am

    The image looks to me like they have taken two line drawings and super imposed them over another drawing, with little care for reality...
    Seems they've taken the higher-res pic of the Putin poster & overlaid it on the keel-laying plate scaled to overlap as much major parts as they can & drawn in guestimates of some of the internal layout.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:27 am

    Just noticed, that overlay was done by Paralay.
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    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:24 am

    Embedment board of the universal landing ship "Ivan Rogov" of project 23900

    Photo of the mortgage board of the Ivan Rogov universal landing ship of project 23900 (serial number 01901), laid down on July 20, 2020 for the Russian Navy at Zaliv Shipyard LLC in Kerch, with a fairly detailed image of the ship's appearance, designed by Zelenodolskoye proektno- design bureau "(ZPKB). Embedment board of the universal landing ship "Ivan Rogov" of project 23900 (serial number 01901) developed by JSC "Zelenodolsk design bureau". The ship was laid down on 20.07.2020 for the Russian Navy at the Zaliv Shipyard LLC in Kerch (c) TV Russia / processing by militaryrussia.ru

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 4 82574110


    It is noticeable that the image of the 23900 project on the mortgage board differs from the image of the ship on the stand demonstrated during the visit on January 9, 2020 by the President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin to the exposition dedicated to the prospects for the development of the Russian Navy, in the building of the Black Sea Higher Naval Order of the Red Stars of the School named after P.S. Nakhimov in Sevastopol.

    In particular, first of all, it is worth noting that in the final form the ship is depicted with propeller-driven rudders as propellers, similar to the French universal landing ship (UDC) Mistral.Thus, a single electric power plant was used on the ship of project 23900. In combination with the general architecture and the fact that the dimensions of the project 23900 ship are very close to those of the UDC Mistral, it can be concluded that the Mistral clearly acted as a model (which is reasonable) when designing the 23900 ship.

    He also draws attention to the fact that a number of details of the image on the mortgage board look more rational in comparison with the common ZPKB before the ceremony of the bookmarking with the render image of the ship. In particular, the onboard sponson on the starboard side looks higher on the mortgage board than on the render (where it is actually at the waterline itself - although in any case, the open placement of boats on such a low sponson, and not the semi-closed placement in the ship's hull, looks strange) and there is also no "Pantsir-M" combat module, which is "projected" on the render directly to the bow of the flight deck. The official image of the Project 23900 universal amphibious assault ship from the poster from the laying ceremony at the Zaliv Shipyard LLC in Kerch 20.07.

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    mnztr

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    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 4 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  mnztr on Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:38 am

    Does this ship risk being classified an aircraft carrier and banned from the black sea by the Montreaux convention? After all it has a flat deck and is largly designed as a platform to operate Helos to support amphibious troop landings and maritime power projection. Its weapons are mostly on aircraft. I just read that carriers greater then 15K tons cannot pass through the Turkish straits.

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