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    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:14 am

    Could be an issue between dry weight and loaded weight and max operational weight...

    Interesting that they essentially want one landing ship for landing Naval Infantry forces, but that the other ships will still carry helicopters but will also carry drones.

    Assuming one carrying 1,000 naval infantry as well as armour and equipment and supplies, plus 16 helos and landing craft to deliver said force to shore, the question then becomes if the second one still only carries 16 helos but presumably not the naval infantry troops or their armour and support vehicles and therefore not their landing craft, why only carry four UAVs?

    Or maybe it is a special forces carrier, perhaps with a smaller group of Naval Spetsnaz with all sorts of lighter vehicles for recon and perhaps support like artillery, plus landing ships in the landing ship well... and maybe bigger different helicopters with UAVs for recon?

    All very interesting...
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 01, 2021 10:23 am

    I am not aware that Russian Ice breakers have podded power. I know they are electric drive, and pics of the new Artika class show shaft drive. Do you know which ones have podded propulsion?

    Have seen a video animation of a Russian icebreaker that used foreign azipods, and if the ice was too thick to sail through it could turn 180 degrees and reverse into the ice with the azipods on pull so the blades chopped up the broken pieces of ice to make it easier to sail through...

    They have a new rescue ship that also uses azipods for station keeping and they were talking about some huge heavy tanker ships that would get azipods to make them easier to navigate in congested waters....
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    Post  Arrow Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:44 pm

    How the S 70 will take off from this type of ship Rolling Eyes ?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:40 am

    With no ski jump it would have to have cats.... and likely EMALS cats at that.

    Such a small vessel would not benefit from having a ski jump at all because they only types that could take advantage of that would be VSTOL fighters and we already know they are using Ka-52K for fighter cover.

    I would expect the small number of UAVs is because they would use the entire length of the deck for takeoffs of the UAVs while the ship is sailing into the wind so all the helicopters would need to be out of the way on the sides of the deck or in the hangar.

    Without 1,000 marines and their vehicles there should be plenty of internal space to locate the helicopters not in use...

    the wingspan of these UAVs would probably require no helicopters be on deck or pushed to the very edge of the deck for takeoffs and landings.

    Edit: The version with helicopters and four UAVs does not seem to have 1,000 Naval Infantry and their armour and support and supplies which means they might use the internal volume for the armour to hold some of the helicopters which would dramatically free up space on the deck so the UAVs could be launched along the full length of the deck, which might allow them to operate on these ships without a catapult system... though mention of a temporary and mobile cat system for teh Kuznetsov suggests a system that can be fitted to other flat deck ships or indeed on open stretches of motorway for getting heavier aircraft airborne from shorter strips.


    Last edited by GarryB on Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:00 am; edited 1 time in total
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:22 pm

    Someone brought to my attention that the Project 23900 series has more capability and versatility than we we're lead to believe, to the point that it can't "contain" itself. Wink
    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 9 EqU3OSGW4AAjSlc?format=jpg&name=900x900
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    owais.usmani

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:10 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Someone brought to my attention that the Project 23900 series has more capability and versatility than we we're lead to believe, to the point that it can't "contain" itself. Wink
    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 9 EqU3OSGW4AAjSlc?format=jpg&name=900x900

    I think this was already identified and discussed in this thread before when those renders were published.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Mar 03, 2021 5:55 am

    Redut is to carry the 9M100 short range lock on after launch self defence missile and the 9M96 SAMs of 60km and 150km range... I think the 60km range missile hits targets up to 30km and the 150km range missile up to 40km altitude.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:34 pm

    The source spoke about the advantages of the Russian "Mistral" over the BDK

    MOSCOW, 12 Mar-RIA Novosti. Under construction inTwo Russian helicopter carriers of project 23900, which will be analogs of the French Mistral, will be able to take on Board a thousand Marines, a source in the shipbuilding industry told RIA Novosti.
    At the same time, the large amphibious assault ships (BDK) of the improved project 11711 laid down at the Yantar plant in Kaliningrad can accommodate no more than 300 Marines.

    "Each ship has a landing force of no more than a thousand Marines, respectively, there will be a dock chamber and up to four landing boats will be placed in it," the source said.
    He noted that the transfer of helicopter carriers to the Navy is planned for 2026 and 2027, while the purchase of other ships of this project "is not yet out of the question."

    Earlier, the source reported that " Russian Mistrals will be able to carry up to 16 helicopters and four drones on Board.
    Two universal amphibious assault ships of project 23900 were laid down on July 20, 2020 at the Zaliv plant in Kerch in the presence of Vladimir Putin.
    Dock ships (analogs of the French helicopter carriers "Mistral") they will be the first ships of this class built in Russia. Their displacement will be 40 thousand tons.
    The supply contract worth 1.2 billion euros was originally signed in 2011 between the French DCNS / STX and Rosoboronexport. France was supposed to hand over the first ship, named Vladivostok, in November 2014, but due to the events in Ukraine and the introduction of sanctions against Russia, Francois Hollande, then the country's President, decided to suspend the agreement.

    https://ria.ru/20210312/mistral-1600864393.html

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    Post  LMFS Sat Mar 13, 2021 11:31 am

    "They will be better than the Mistral": what Russia is building in Crimea

    MOSCOW, 13 Mar-RIA Novosti, Andrey Kotz. Roomy, high-speed, modern-the shipbuilding industry has revealed some of the characteristics of the universal amphibious assault ships of the 23900 project. Two pennants have already been laid on the stocks of the Kerch Zaliv plant. Previously, ships of this class were not built in Russia. Thanks to them, the fleet will have unique opportunities for expeditionary operations.

    Create from scratch
    Universal amphibious assault ships are available only in a few fleets of the world. Not every state can afford them, and not everyone needs them. UDC combines most of the functions inherent in other landing ships. In fact, these are floating bases of the marine corps. The main tasks are to land the expeditionary forces on the equipped and unequipped coast, support their actions by air, and deliver heavy armored vehicles to the combat zone. In addition, the UDC often serves as a headquarters-they manage the amphibious assault.
    In Russia, the need for such ships was realized in the late noughties. They couldn't create their own ones from scratch at that time, so they decided to study Western proposals. In December 2010, they signed a contract with France for two first-rank multipurpose amphibious assault ships of the Mistral class.

    Vladivostok ship of the Mistral class at the docks of SNX France
    These udcs would provide the marine corps with its own transport capable of ensuring a long-term presence of military contingents in remote areas of the world, giving them air support and full management. UDC, named "Vladivostok" and "Sevastopol", Russia was supposed to receive in the fall of 2014, but due to the situation around the Crimea, Paris, under pressure from its allies, suspended the contract. As a result, Moscow was paid compensation, and Egypt bought the Mistral.
    Since the conclusion of this transaction, the Russian expert community has been constantly debating UDC. Critics insisted that the large amphibious assault ships already in service could perform their tasks.

    Differences between universal amphibious assault ships and "Mistrals" are named"
    In addition, Russia at that time did not conduct and did not intend to conduct expeditionary operations abroad. However, the military operation in Syria put everything in its place. UDC would be very useful in the middle East for the transfer of military equipment and military personnel to Tartus. And air groups of ships would help in the fight against terrorists.
    Forty thousand tons
    Universal amphibious assault ships of project 23900 were developed at the Zelenodolsk design Bureau. The first two UDC ships - "Ivan Rogov" and "Mitrofan Moskalenko" -were laid in Kerch in July 2020. According to the plans, they should be built, tested and handed over to the fleet by 2027-2028. Kerch specialists are faced with an extremely non-trivial task: according to the project, the displacement of each UDC is about 40 thousand tons. Such large ships in post-Soviet Russia have not yet been laid.
    The prospective UDC is 220 meters long and 38 meters wide. A powerful diesel-gas turbine unit will provide a speed of 22 knots. Range-six thousand nautical miles, autonomy-60 days, crew-320 people. The case will be made according to the block-modular principle with simultaneous production of large elements and their subsequent connection.

    The design includes a running bridge, command and staff rooms, crew and landing sections, helicopter and cargo hangars, and technical areas. UDC project 23900 will be able to take on Board up to a marine regiment (a thousand military personnel) and up to 75 units of military equipment. Speedboats will be placed in the dock chambers for landing troops. Strike weapons are not expected, and Pantsir-ME anti-aircraft missile systems will protect against the threat from the air. In addition, sufficiently powerful air groups will be based on Board.
    "We are talking about Kamov design Bureau helicopters," a source in the shipbuilding industry told RIA Novosti. -Ka-52K attack aircraft and other models, including the Ka-27. Capacity-15-16 cars. In addition, four drones. The Ministry of defense has long agreed on the requirements for the appearance of the UDC. The final project is no worse in terms of functionality, and maybe even better than the French Mistrals.

    https://ria.ru/20210313/udk-1600726400.html

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:52 am

    Its kinda interesting that the ships are now the same size as the US America class.
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    Post  Backman Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:08 pm

    Decent video report. Not sure why some of the renderings have a ski jump but I like it.

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    mnztr

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    Post  mnztr Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:20 pm

    they probably used a lot of video from Spanish ship builders, thus the Harriers. Still, I expect more surprises with this ship.
    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:35 pm

    According to the plan (at the disposal of Izvestia), work on the lead ship of project 23900 Ivan Rogov should be completed in 2028.

    Full article
    https://iz.ru/1150939/roman-kretcul-anton-lavrov/universalnyi-desant-rossiiskie-vertoletonostcy-usiliat-vmf-v-2028-godu

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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:05 pm

    Many references to UAVs on board, I guess Kronshtadt is already working hard on this:

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    limb

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    Post  limb Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:10 pm

    It will take 7 more years for this? That's longer than a Yasin subarine.
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    Post  LMFS Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:45 pm

    limb wrote:It will take 7 more years for this? That's longer than a Yasin subarine.

    If you start building before you are done with the project, it is easy to understand...
    bren_tann
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    Post  bren_tann Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:03 pm

    dino00 wrote:According to the plan (at the disposal of Izvestia), work on the lead ship of project 23900 Ivan Rogov should be completed in 2028.

    Full article
    https://iz.ru/1150939/roman-kretcul-anton-lavrov/universalnyi-desant-rossiiskie-vertoletonostcy-usiliat-vmf-v-2028-godu

    Very ambitious goal. 2028. Russia's shipyards have not been modernized post Cold War to be able to build a LHD at such speed. A more realistic timeline for launch of the first ship should be 2040 launch when the shipyard's capability is taken into considering and the launch of the second ship should be on schedule for 2050 to 2060 launch.
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    Post  wilhelm Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:38 pm

    Nonsense.

    The Russian section of the Mistral Vladivostok, amounting to 40% of the vessel, was laid down by USC St Petersburg in October 2012, and launched in June 2013. On time, and within budget.
    It was then sent to France.
    The completed boat started sea trials in March 2014.

    Now, granted, this is a new design, and not a design like Mistral that had already been built.
    As such, 8 years is probably what it will take to have it launched and complete sea trials.

    But you saying a launch date of 20 years after laying down for the first and 40 years after laying down of the second is utterly, utterly ridiculous.
    The boats were both laid down in 2020.
    The shipyard workers who started construction will have retired or have died of old age.


    Please think before you post.

    Hmmmmm...this seems familiar..have you been here before, under another name perhaps?

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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:37 am

    wilhelm wrote:.....Hmmmmm...this seems familiar..have you been here before, under another name perhaps?

    Geee, you noticed? lol1

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    x_54_u43
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    Post  x_54_u43 Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:48 am

    Given his profile picture of a Chinese drone, it probably is who you think it is.

    2040 and 2060 are ABSURD timelines but I think project will face difficulties, I know Russia's Mistral sections were done on time but this was just bare metal at a shipyard that didn't go through the same problems as the other military shipyards in Russia or the shipyards that were left outside of Russia after the dissolution of USSR.

    Baltic Shipyard was constantly loaded with healthy orders of nuclear icebreakers and other vessels(granted it didn't have smooth sailing but compared to other shipyards it was a vacation).

    The Zaliv shipyard on the other hand was in Ukrainian hands up until 2014 and had Ukrainian levels of care and investment put into it, it was literally producing small transport vessels, though it got off lucky compared to Nikolaev, where all the USSR's Adm.Kuz and her sisters as well as the Slava-class missile cruisers were built, a Ukrainian "business man" bought it and demolished a sidewall in the dockyard to install a grain terminal, and hasn't built a proper vessel since.

    But it is good that Zaliv got the order, it has the same sized drydock has Zvesda(or close to it), and has been getting more and more orders from both military and civilian. I wonder if in 2030 will see a carrier built in it, unless RuNavy wants it earlier and has another shipyard build it.
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    Post  wilhelm Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:04 am

    I agree with all of that.
    There will be a steep learning curve for Zaliv, no doubt, after years of stagnation.
    But I still think in and around the 8 year mark is probably accurate,within a year or so.

    Is there any news on propulsion type for this vessel?
    It seems to be CODAG?
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    Post  wilhelm Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:06 am

    Apologies for responding to the idiot.
    His post was so stupid, it hurt.
    I couldn't believe anybody could be that thick. In my defence, I stopped reading any of his posts ages ago due to the sheer stupidity of them.

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:40 am

    bren_tann wrote:
    dino00 wrote:According to the plan (at the disposal of Izvestia), work on the lead ship of project 23900 Ivan Rogov should be completed in 2028.

    Full article
    https://iz.ru/1150939/roman-kretcul-anton-lavrov/universalnyi-desant-rossiiskie-vertoletonostcy-usiliat-vmf-v-2028-godu

    Very ambitious goal. 2028. Russia's shipyards have not been modernized post Cold War to be able to build a LHD at such speed. A more realistic timeline for launch of the first ship should be 2040 launch when the shipyard's capability is taken into considering and the launch of the second ship should be on schedule for 2050 to 2060 launch.

    I know I can be banned for calling someone a fucking idiot, but can I be banned for thinking someone is a fucking idiot?

    Laughing

    2040 launch... /facepalm

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    Post  LMFS Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:21 am

    ^ lol1 lol1 lol1

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:28 am

    x_54_u43 wrote:...The Zaliv shipyard on the other hand was in Ukrainian hands up until 2014 and had Ukrainian levels of care and investment put into it, it was literally producing small transport vessels, though it got off lucky compared to Nikolaev, where all the USSR's Adm.Kuz and her sisters as well as the Slava-class missile cruisers were built, a Ukrainian "business man" bought it and demolished a sidewall in the dockyard to install a grain terminal, and hasn't built a proper vessel since.

    But it is good that Zaliv got the order, it has the same sized drydock has Zvesda(or close to it), and has been getting more and more orders from both military and civilian....

    Value of Zaliv is precisely construction of large ships, there are plenty of others that can handle corvettes and frigates but not many who can handle large stuff

    That is why they were given these specific ships

    After building some missile ships and OPVs for warmup they were chucked in the deep end with LHDs to learn to swim properly

    And while these LHDs are big ships they are not priority projects like frigates or submarines and Navy will be able to handle any possible delays of these vessels no problem (they wouldn't be able to of it were submarines or frigates)

    It may be a steep learning curve but at some point down the road this shipyard will be in good enough shape to reliably handle construction of really big ships

    That's when they will be given really important stuff to build




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