Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9376
    Points : 9458
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:01 pm

    Isos wrote:....
    IMO it could be that the design is too close to Mistral design from which they received ToT from french NavalGroup (plans of the design notably) but they signed to destroy the documents and not use them. It could be that they are affraid of french bringing the case to the justice.

    Russia got to keep the blueprints according to contract and can use them however they see fit

    They agreed for French to not deliver the ships (and got to pick end customer who had to buy helicopters from them)

    Russia could build Mistrals identical to French ones and nothing would be out of order

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6204
    Points : 6196
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:19 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:....
    IMO it could be that the design is too close to Mistral design from which they received ToT from french NavalGroup (plans of the design notably) but they signed to destroy the documents and not use them. It could be that they are affraid of french bringing the case to the justice.

    Russia got to keep the blueprints according to contract and can use them however they see fit

    They agreed for French to not deliver the ships (and got to pick end customer who had to buy helicopters from them)

    Russia could build Mistrals identical to French ones and nothing would be out of order


    No they can't. They signed a contract to not use the ToT to create a ship that can compete with the Mistral on the international market. They also had to destroy all the documents they got to build their part of the mistral.

    Producing the same ship with minor changes means they used the ToT which was forbiden by the contract.

    If they do it French can sue them and ask for a big amount of money.
    TheArmenian
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1886
    Points : 2037
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:07 pm

    The Mistral is a civilian ship masquerading as a warship.
    Ivan Rogov is a real warship.
    Hole
    Hole

    Posts : 3141
    Points : 3141
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 44
    Location : Merkelland

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  Hole on Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:51 pm

    Why should Russia keep a contract after western countries showed time and time again that they give a sh... about contracts?
    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6204
    Points : 6196
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 21, 2020 9:29 pm

    Why should Russia keep a contract after western countries showed time and time again that they give a sh... about contracts?

    French gave back the money according to the contract. They respected the contract.

    Such contract are not 1 page long but a big book that take into consideration lot of scenarios. The non-delivry of the ship is one of them and russians were aware of that.

    Russians could have asked for more money but didn't want to hurt their relation with french as the decsion to stop the sell was made because of NATO pressions. But I don't think they will risk to pay French all the money for copying their design and the actual design may be totally new.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2041
    Points : 2033
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:04 pm

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:Who cares about the names. The fact that they hide the design is more important.

    They don't hide the design, they are just too incompetent to commission a usable image


    The image has nothing to do with their design. There is no pantsir or ak-630 on it.

    IMO it could be that the design is too close to Mistral design from which they received ToT from french NavalGroup (plans of the design notably) but they signed to destroy the documents and not use them. It could be that they are affraid of french bringing the case to the justice.

    Incorrect the design is stated to have 3x Kashtan CIWS, One A-190 Gun and 2x Pantsir-M

    I guess the reason it has a small aerial wing for its size is that they had to sacrifice space for the AA weapons.

    That said you are right when you say the Russians borrowed from the Mistral design something that was against the contract signed and the french did honor the contract by returning the money PLUS paying Russia a fee for not delivering the ships.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9376
    Points : 9458
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 21, 2020 10:38 pm


    Russian Navy PR department should be handed over to God Emperor's Holy Inquisition for their endless failures but at least random Internet folks are willing to contribute...

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 21-8861029-23900-by-sokolov

    George1, dino00 and zardof like this post

    avatar
    marat

    Posts : 307
    Points : 303
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  marat on Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:26 pm

    4 RBU and 1 Pantsir?
    medo
    medo

    Posts : 3915
    Points : 3999
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  medo on Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:38 pm

    Too short ship. Ivan Rogov is 220 m long, not 160 m.

    marat likes this post

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6204
    Points : 6196
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:56 pm

    What is that pantsir doing in the middle of the deck ? The guy who made that shit don't know how pantsir works.

    Another fanart design ...
    avatar
    marat

    Posts : 307
    Points : 303
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  marat on Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:03 am

    But it looks like official render. Pantsir is in same place.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9376
    Points : 9458
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:05 am

    medo wrote:Too short ship. Ivan Rogov is 220 m long, not 160 m.

    Meh, still better than official one...
    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 818
    Points : 866
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:40 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Russian Navy PR department should be handed over to God Emperor's Holy Inquisition for their endless failures

    Well I mist agree they are absolutely ineffective.

    But why the 40K jokes?
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25949
    Points : 26495
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:12 pm

    IMO it could be that the design is too close to Mistral design from which they received ToT from french NavalGroup (plans of the design notably) but they signed to destroy the documents and not use them. It could be that they are affraid of french bringing the case to the justice.

    France also signed a lot of contracts to deliver the two mistrals Russia paid for but things changed.

    France can't expect Russia not to use information they gathered during the whole Mistral purchasing affair... consider it a fee for time lost.

    No they can't. They signed a contract to not use the ToT to create a ship that can compete with the Mistral on the international market. They also had to destroy all the documents they got to build their part of the mistral.

    So they wont export any... and destroying documents is not the same as destroying all copies and backups...

    Producing the same ship with minor changes means they used the ToT which was forbiden by the contract.

    That contract is void because France refused to deliver the products paid for in the time allotted.

    Once the contract is broken it is broken.

    If they do it French can sue them and ask for a big amount of money.

    They can ask anything they like, but the new constitution they have now adopted might make it hard for France as it moves Russian law above international law in Russia.

    French gave back the money according to the contract. They respected the contract.

    The contract was to deliver two ships, not to pay money back.

    Such contract are not 1 page long but a big book that take into consideration lot of scenarios. The non-delivry of the ship is one of them and russians were aware of that.

    I am sure there is plenty of wriggle room... you don't expect Russia to never build a helicopter carrier again do you?

    Russians could have asked for more money but didn't want to hurt their relation with french as the decsion to stop the sell was made because of NATO pressions. But I don't think they will risk to pay French all the money for copying their design and the actual design may be totally new.

    France screwed Russia, the Russians should not care about relations with France over this debacle, can Russia trust France over anything?

    I would say clearly not.

    I guess the reason it has a small aerial wing for its size is that they had to sacrifice space for the AA weapons.

    Rubbish... and 2-3 extra helicopters wont make any difference with it sitting on the sea bed.


    That said you are right when you say the Russians borrowed from the Mistral design something that was against the contract signed and the french did honor the contract by returning the money PLUS paying Russia a fee for not delivering the ships.

    The contract is null and void, the ships were not delivered. They got their money back and can now design and build what they like.

    Isos
    Isos

    Posts : 6204
    Points : 6196
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:35 pm


    That contract is void because France refused to deliver the products paid for in the time allotted.

    Once the contract is broken it is broken.

    You are wrong. They never broke the contract. The non-delivery is part of the contract. They gave back the money which is part of the contract.

    France screwed Russia, the Russians should not care about relations with France over this debacle, can Russia trust France over anything?

    I would say clearly not.

    Yes and they care. France is with Germany leading the EU and Russia wants good economic relations with them.

    They can ask anything they like, but the new constitution they have now adopted might make it hard for France as it moves Russian law above international law in Russia.

    That's true in Russia. But if they want to keep making business with foreign countries they have to respect international laws.

    Russian don't want everyone to do anything they want so they won't start doing what they want when it's against their engagements.

    Again, France had the right to not deliver the ships. It was part of the contract. Abd frankly Mistrals are not suited for russian Navy. Not the same helicopters, not the same areas of deployment, not the same landing forces... their naval design makers can do something on their own. Mistral is a civilian design.
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2041
    Points : 2033
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Jul 22, 2020 12:46 pm

    Not at all, that's not how a complex contract works, something like that as many conditions attached to it ship delivered or not, silly to try and simple logic to a complex contract like that.

    I don't care what the Russians did but it was a violation of the contract, again arms contracts contain many stipulations regarding technological sharing and data transfer.

    Don't try and water it down to "ship wasn't delivered they can do what they want legally" sorry but no that's not how it works at all. Again don't care but facts are facts.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9376
    Points : 9458
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 22, 2020 3:38 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Russian Navy PR department should be handed over to God Emperor's Holy Inquisition for their endless failures

    Well I mist agree they are absolutely ineffective.

    But why the 40K jokes?

    No reason, I just like 40k

    The-thing-next-door
    The-thing-next-door

    Posts : 818
    Points : 866
    Join date : 2017-09-18
    Location : Uranus

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:17 pm

    So are the new landing mistral derivatives? That would seem an illogical decision on the part of the Russian navy, it would be far better to use the blueprints as a standard to surpass and have thier own design bureaus design a vastly superior vessel.

    If it is just externally similar to the mistral then the frogs may aswell be croaking about Russian also making supersonic ASHMs.


    PapaDragon wrote:
    No reason, I just like 40k

    Off topic but which faction do you favor?
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9376
    Points : 9458
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:09 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:Off topic but which faction do you favor?

    Other than Imperium whom everyone loves (because it's heresy to do otherwise!!!) I love playing with Chaos (Nurgle's crew in particular) but funny part is that I often have to make breaks in gameplay because noises those nutjobs make are quite disturbing

    And their storylines are batshit insane, wiki is a blast to read Cool

    avatar
    ult

    Posts : 793
    Points : 833
    Join date : 2015-02-20

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  ult on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:35 pm

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 22-8863477-23900-ivan-rogov-zakladnaya-doska-sz-zaliv-20.07.2020

    George1 and dino00 like this post

    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 1394
    Points : 1435
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 32
    Location : portugal

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  dino00 on Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:43 pm

    ult wrote:Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 22-8863477-23900-ivan-rogov-zakladnaya-doska-sz-zaliv-20.07.2020


    In this one they changed from 16 to 20 July Very Happy
    avatar
    wilhelm

    Posts : 258
    Points : 262
    Join date : 2014-12-09

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  wilhelm on Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:17 am

    Not sure if that is just the perspective of the illustration, but to me either that is a massively long Island, or the boat is more like 190-200m long instead of 220m so often mentioned?
    Difficult to tell.
    Any thoughts?
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 9376
    Points : 9458
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:48 am

    wilhelm wrote:Not sure if that is just the perspective of the illustration, but to me either that is a massively long Island, or the boat is more like 190-200m long instead of 220m so often mentioned?
    Difficult to tell.
    Any thoughts?

    I think so as well

    Models they showed before and ship they are actually building are definitely different

    Whatever comes out of that shipyard will be shorter than 220

    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 25949
    Points : 26495
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:36 pm

    You are wrong. They never broke the contract. The non-delivery is part of the contract. They gave back the money which is part of the contract.

    Russia is making two helicopter carriers that are 5,000 tons heavier than Mistral so they are not building Mistrals so they aren't breaking the contract either.

    Yes and they care. France is with Germany leading the EU and Russia wants good economic relations with them.

    What are you talking about.... both have the other under economic sanctions... as per orders from Washington...

    But if they want to keep making business with foreign countries they have to respect international laws.

    Why?

    Was the EU respecting international law when they bombed Serbia over Kosovo... how about your attack on Libya and murder of Gadaffi?

    Which International law allows EU and US special forces to train terrorists in Syria against the wishes of the Syrian government?

    Funny how respect for international law is only a one way street...

    Russian don't want everyone to do anything they want so they won't start doing what they want when it's against their engagements.

    I doubt Russia will ever buy another French ship so I don't see what the problem is...

    Again, France had the right to not deliver the ships. It was part of the contract. Abd frankly Mistrals are not suited for russian Navy. Not the same helicopters, not the same areas of deployment, not the same landing forces... their naval design makers can do something on their own. Mistral is a civilian design.

    They wanted a design fast because their experience in Georgia made them realise if a more powerful country was the problem.... say Japan regarding the Kuriles then they might not have been able to respond in time and 8 8 8 showed them they could not rely on the international community to be fair or even impartial.

    The response was the need for a landing vessel and the Mistral seemed to be the best alternative and being a proven design there would be little time wasted.

    France didn't have a "right" to not deliver the ships... they had an outclause incase they didn't have the spine to stand up to the US... call it a get out of jail because I am a pussy clause, which they invoked.

    If France had honoured their part of the deal they probably would be negotiating the next two because the plan was always for four ships... two in the Pacific Fleet and two in the Northern Fleet, but now Russian ship makers will get to design and build four new ships for Russia and I doubt France will ever be given a tour of the ships... they wont be carbon copies of the Mistrals because there was a lot they did not like but had to put up with. Now they can correct the most serious faults and get a properly armed and designed military ship.

    France should be happy for Russia.

    I don't care what the Russians did but it was a violation of the contract, again arms contracts contain many stipulations regarding technological sharing and data transfer.

    Don't try and water it down to "ship wasn't delivered they can do what they want legally" sorry but no that's not how it works at all. Again don't care but facts are facts.

    Without access to the new ships how can you prove in a court of law that they are "copies"?

    The fact that they are different size an a different weight with different capacities for helicopters and presumably their landing ships and armour is redesigned to suit the new stuff the Russians are making will make them different enough to not be able to be called copies... and as I said they have not mentioned any exports... they will want four if they are happy with the design, so they wont be making any export models for at least 10-15 years anyway.

    So are the new landing mistral derivatives?

    I doubt it. More like previous designs with some Mistral like updates and improvements.

    That would seem an illogical decision on the part of the Russian navy, it would be far better to use the blueprints as a standard to surpass and have thier own design bureaus design a vastly superior vessel.

    If they were just making Mistrals they had the blueprints an without modifications could have started making them a few years ago...

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

    Posts : 2041
    Points : 2033
    Join date : 2016-04-08

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:09 pm

    There is an export version of it so you know and now you changed the subject to "how can they prove it" which is a different matter, but it seems we reached an understanding.

    Sponsored content

    Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship - Page 3 Empty Re: Project 23900 "Ivan Rogov" Amphibious assault ship

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:00 pm