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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:25 pm

    Isos wrote:
    And yes the zircon would replace Onyx eventually, and will likely be used for land attack too.

    It's doubtfull that it will have a very long range for that role. Even oniks is 600km in high altitude mode. Speed is not only factor for missiles.

    Quite rubbish data.

    An object on a ballistic path with 3 km/sec speed has a range of 458 km.

    It will be accelerated with a solid rocket, and it has a scramjet acceleration phase as well, that is more than 50 km, so the minimum range of the zyrcon is 500 km.

    if the rocket can go 300 km with full propulsion power, keeping the speed only then the range is 800 km.At least.

    The Onyx range as well has to be more than 1000 km.

    The only challenge is the targeting, I think they using the sonar in the SOFAR channel, and maybe than can get targeting data for carriers/ships going with full speed from 1000 km.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:36 pm

    Energy content of an explosive is 3 Mj/kg.
    It is equivalent of the energy content of an aprox. 1.5 km/sec object for kg to kg.

    Means a mach ten 3 km/sec object has for times more energy per weight unit than a smillar masss explosive.


    So, the zyrcon doesn't have any warhead. It makes more sense to carry fuel.

    The vaporisation of the fuel will create an explosion of 30 Mj/kg eqivalent, in oxigen rich atmosphere.
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    Post  max steel on Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:58 pm

    More became known about its range, stated to be around 400 kilometers, what this "around" means nobody knows but it was speculated for a while that it is up to 500 kilometers. But that is not what really matters in this news.

    For me it was a surprise--it was confirmed that Zircon will be launched from standard 3C14 VLS system which is installed on all new Russian frigates and corvettes this adding to Kalibr and Onyx carrying capability. These are not good news for opponents surface component, in fact, these are very very bad news since this capability will be distributed across most platforms, current and perspective, Russian Navy deploys.
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    Post  JohninMK on Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:15 am

    max steel wrote:More  became known about its range, stated to be around 400 kilometers, what this "around" means nobody knows but it was speculated for a while that it is up to 500 kilometers. But that is not what really matters in this news.

    For me it was a surprise--it was confirmed that Zircon will be launched from standard 3C14 VLS system which is installed on all new Russian frigates and corvettes this adding to Kalibr and Onyx carrying capability. These are not good news for opponents surface component, in fact, these are very very bad news since this capability will be distributed across most platforms, current and perspective, Russian Navy deploys.
    Presumably the bad news will be compounded by not knowing for certain which ships have Zircons in their tubes.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:22 am

    The range of weapons for the UKSK will only expand.

    It might eventually include UAVs and UCAVs, and does already include the Klub, Calibr, and Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos range of missiles.

    It will most likely get Kh-101 and Kh-102 capability too.

    This means land attack capability and anti ship capability and anti sub capability with the mach 2.5 ballistic Klubs launching a torpedo up to 40km away from the ship to attack a submerged submarine.

    Add Zircon soon and who knows what else...
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:33 am

    GarryB wrote:The range of weapons for the UKSK will only expand.

    It might eventually include UAVs and UCAVs, and does already include the Klub, Calibr, and Onyx/Yakhont/Brahmos range of missiles.

    It will most likely get Kh-101 and Kh-102 capability too.

    This means land attack capability and anti ship capability and anti sub capability with the mach 2.5 ballistic Klubs launching a torpedo up to 40km away from the ship to attack a submerged submarine.

    Add Zircon soon and who knows what else...

    UCAVs???.... why, UAVs sure, they can be made small enough, but UCAVs need to carry bombs, i don't think the UKSK tube has that kind of space, besides isn't kalibre and soon Zircon more than enough? pirat
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:41 pm

    What kind of targeting system the zirkon has?
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:16 am

    UCAVs???.... why, UAVs sure, they can be made small enough, but UCAVs need to carry bombs, i don't think the UKSK tube has that kind of space, besides isn't kalibre and soon Zircon more than enough?

    A target of opportunity might present itself during a recon flight... having a section you can eject to attack a target of opportunity might be useful.

    Even just having a light machine gun on a UAV able to fire warning shots at targets.

    The space inside a UKSK tube is huge... just look at the size of the Yakhont... it is 9 metres long and weighs over 2.5 tons.

    There is plenty of space for a UAV and a UCAV.

    A UAV could be used to penetrate enemy airspace in a deniable way with no risk to flight crew. Making it armed means you can do some damage if you need to while doing that.

    What kind of targeting system the zirkon has?

    Most likely radar and possibly electro-optical terminal homing.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:11 am

    GarryB wrote:
    UCAVs???.... why, UAVs sure, they can be made small enough, but UCAVs need to carry bombs, i don't think the UKSK tube has that kind of space, besides isn't kalibre and soon Zircon more than enough?

    A target of opportunity might present itself during a recon flight... having a section you can eject to attack a target of opportunity might be useful.

    Even just having a light machine gun on a UAV able to fire warning shots at targets.

    The space inside a UKSK tube is huge... just look at the size of the Yakhont... it is 9 metres long and weighs over 2.5 tons.

    There is plenty of space for a UAV and a UCAV.

    A UAV could be used to penetrate enemy airspace in a deniable way with no risk to flight crew. Making it armed means you can do some damage if you need to while doing that.

    Yea, i don't buy it. Neutral

    What kind of targeting system the zirkon has?

    Most likely radar and possibly electro-optical terminal homing.

    Most likely all of the above.
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    Post  Vann7 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:49 am




    Russia’s hypersonic Zircon anti-ship missile reaches eight times speed of sound




    http://tass.com/defense/941559



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    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:38 am

    GarryB wrote:
    UCAVs???.... why, UAVs sure, they can be made small enough, but UCAVs need to carry bombs, i don't think the UKSK tube has that kind of space, besides isn't kalibre and soon Zircon more than enough?

    A target of opportunity might present itself during a recon flight... having a section you can eject to attack a target of opportunity might be useful.

    Even just having a light machine gun on a UAV able to fire warning shots at targets.

    The space inside a UKSK tube is huge... just look at the size of the Yakhont... it is 9 metres long and weighs over 2.5 tons.

    There is plenty of space for a UAV and a UCAV.

    A UAV could be used to penetrate enemy airspace in a deniable way with no risk to flight crew. Making it armed means you can do some damage if you need to while doing that.

    What kind of targeting system the zirkon has?

    Most likely radar and possibly electro-optical terminal homing.


    I think it is not that natural.

    The nose of the rocket will be extremely hot, so possibly there is no homing system there.

    It means that an onyx has to deliver the targeting data for it.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:00 am

    The problem of giving a ramjet powered missile speeds greater than mach 5 is the same as flying a turbojet engine at high speed.

    A ramjet or for that matter turbojet engine would choke on supersonic air. Combustion in their hot sections (where the fuel is burned) takes place only at subsonic air flows.

    Now imagine you are a missile flying at mach 4.5... so the air coming in the intake is moving at mach 4.5... you need to compress and slow that air down so that when it gets to the place where the fuel is added it is moving at subsonic speed... and then you burn the fuel which expands it out the rear of the missile... obviously once it is subsonic it takes a lot of fuel to get the exhaust speed high enough to keep the aircraft moving at mach 4.5.

    It is much much easier to go to a scramjet engine where the air does not need to be slowed to subsonic speed, where the fuel is added to the hot section and ignited and burned generating extra speed and thrust...

    The problem is supersonic combustion of fuel... hense scramjet technology.

    Previously if you wanted speeds of mach 4 or more you needed a rocket... now you can use a jet engine it seems.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:05 am


    I think it is not that natural.

    The nose of the rocket will be extremely hot, so possibly there is no homing system there.

    It means that an onyx has to deliver the targeting data for it.

    The IRST on a MiG-29 and Su-27 and for that matter MiG-31 are no where near the tips of their noses.

    The latest model AS-11 has both radar and IR sensors in its nose...

    Yea, i don't buy it.

    Read post number 3 in this thread:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t2359-indo-russian-brahmos-ii-hypersonic-missile#192027

    In fact read the patent in post 12 on that thread and you will see the Scramjet motor operates best at high altitude, so remaining at high altitude and releasing munitions to fall onto the target and then returning to the launch vessel could be a useful concept...
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    Post  George1 on Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:08 pm

    I merged the two threads since its about the same missile
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:41 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    I think it is not that natural.

    The nose of the rocket will be extremely hot, so possibly there is no homing system there.

    It means that an onyx has to deliver the targeting data for it.

    The IRST on a MiG-29 and Su-27 and for that matter MiG-31 are no where near the tips of their noses.

    The latest model AS-11 has both radar and IR sensors in its nose...


    Again, the issue of the sensor is not trivial, the scramjet generating plasma in the front of the nose, so I can not see how you can use forward looking IR sensor or radar .

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    Post  Rmf on Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:20 pm

    probably launch uav but with kamikaze option built into it. i cant imagine uav going back into uksk after its mission. Laughing
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    Post  Rmf on Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:35 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    I think it is not that natural.

    The nose of the rocket will be extremely hot, so possibly there is no homing system there.

    It means that an onyx has to deliver the targeting data for it.

    The IRST on a MiG-29 and Su-27 and for that matter MiG-31 are no where near the tips of their noses.

    The latest model AS-11 has both radar and IR sensors in its nose...


    Again, the issue of the sensor is not trivial, the scramjet generating plasma in the front of the nose, so I can not see how you can use forward looking IR sensor or radar .

    http://www.deagel.com/library1/medium/2010/m02010061500020.jpg
    behind a blunt nose you have side looking sensor away from heat , like on thaad missile as ilustration, you overfly your target a bit then use terminal maneuver to correct , probably how chinese balistic antiship missile works.
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:01 pm

    Can someone explain why the Zircon has an angular "duck bill" nose instead of the streamlined intake of the Onyx? What are the aerodynamic benefits?

    Also one of the best things about the zirkon will be that it doesn't need a large warhead, or might not need one at all due to the sheer kinetic force it hits at.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:48 pm

    Again, the issue of the sensor is not trivial, the scramjet generating plasma in the front of the nose, so I can not see how you can use forward looking IR sensor or radar .

    Look at photos of the latest model AS-11... it has passive radar seeker in nose (it is an ARM) and it has two IR sensors underneath and it flys at a standard mach 4-5 AFAIK with rocket propulsion.

    Can someone explain why the Zircon has an angular "duck bill" nose instead of the streamlined intake of the Onyx? What are the aerodynamic benefits?

    The flat nose is a wave riding lifting body design... it is very streamlined... there is just more frontal surface area.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:58 pm

    The Zircon will fly at Mach 8 at high altitudes only.
    At high altitudes air is less dense compared to lower altitudes.
    Heat build up due to friction with air will be less at those higher altitudes.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Again, the issue of the sensor is not trivial, the scramjet generating plasma in the front of the nose, so I can not see how you can use forward looking IR sensor or radar .

    Look at photos of the latest model AS-11... it has passive radar seeker in nose (it is an ARM) and it has two IR sensors underneath and it flys at a standard mach 4-5 AFAIK with rocket propulsion.

    Can someone explain why the Zircon has an angular "duck bill" nose instead of the streamlined intake of the Onyx? What are the aerodynamic benefits?

    The flat nose is a wave riding lifting body design... it is very streamlined... there is just more frontal surface area.

    Temperature and speed has a quadratic relationship, means twice as much speed means four time higher temperature.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:09 am

    Temperature is relative... what makes you think and IR sensor looking through a nose cone that is heated to 400 degrees C by friction wont work when an IR sensor looking through a room temperature heated to 25 degrees C will work.

    That actual IR sensor element is either a cooled element or an uncooled element, but it is the temperature of the element itself that determines its performance... not the air between the element and what it is detecting, nor the surface temperature of the housing the sensor is mounted in.

    Compared with a liquid nitrogen cooled detector element room temperature is already very very hot, yet it manages to detect both very hot and very cold objects...
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:Temperature is relative... what makes you think and IR sensor looking through a nose cone that is heated to 400 degrees C by friction wont work when an IR sensor looking through a room temperature heated to 25 degrees C will work.

    That actual IR sensor element is either a cooled element or an uncooled element, but it is the temperature of the element itself that determines its performance... not the air between the element and what it is detecting, nor the surface temperature of the housing the sensor is mounted in.

    Compared with a liquid nitrogen cooled detector element room temperature is already very very hot, yet it manages to detect both very hot and very cold objects...


    Agree,temperature is relative.

    Compared to the 293 K temperature the 310 is higher by a lot.



    However the plasma radiation way more heat than anything can, means the IR sensor won't be able to see through.

    Even the longer radio waves won't penetrate the plasma.

    The space capsules coming down in complete radio silence due to the plasma.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:06 pm

    Plasma is caused by reentry speeds... 7-10km/s. We are only talking about mach 7-8...  no more than about 2.5km/s.

    Hardly plasma creating speeds... the S-400 and S-500 probably travel faster than that and they have working nose mounted radar antenna.

    Look at this latest model of the AS-11:

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 2 21zyf10

    Near the nose underneath is one of two forward looking IR sensors... now it does not fly at mach 8, but it does move at more than mach 3 and AFAIK the friction heating at a speed of about mach 3 is something like 300 degrees C... or it is for the MiG-31/25.

    If it can look through a crystal lense at 300 degrees C then why not faster and hotter... what would be the limit?

    Certainly Plasma blocks radio waves but IR are not radio waves.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:13 pm

    GarryB wrote:Plasma is caused by reentry speeds... 7-10km/s. We are only talking about mach 7-8...  no more than about 2.5km/s.

    Hardly plasma creating speeds... the S-400 and S-500 probably travel faster than that and they have working nose mounted radar antenna.

    Look at this latest model of the AS-11:

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 2 21zyf10

    Near the nose underneath is one of two forward looking IR sensors... now it does not fly at mach 8, but it does move at more than mach 3 and AFAIK the friction heating at a speed of about mach 3 is something like 300 degrees C... or it is for the MiG-31/25.

    If it can look through a crystal lense at 300 degrees C then why not faster and hotter... what would be the limit?

    Certainly Plasma blocks radio waves but IR are not radio waves.

    This combo of Ir/radar seekers on a supersonic high flying missile would make it a nice antiship missile. Is it planned to use them for that role ? I suppose it's a passive radar for SEAD mission. Can it fly at more than 20 km so it outrange airdefence missiles ?

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