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    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Oct 12, 2020 6:38 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    ... Very simple. It doesn't need to.

    Carrier groups need to be close enough to their targets because of their primary assets being planes.
    For instance the F-18 has a range of about 780 km. There's work done to extend that to 1080 km.

    This means that in order for the US to be able to strike anything in theatre they need to be within range.

    It is so stupid that even outlets like Popular mechanics have covered this.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a18211702/fa-18-super-hornet-longer-legs-fuel-tanks-range/#:~:text=The%20problem%3A%20the%20U.S.%20Navy's,in%20range%20of%20Chinese%20missiles.

    That is not correct. F-18 has more or less range depending on payload, EFTs, IFR etc., so that value above needs to be explained. And you have to add the range of the AShMs they carry to their own combat radius. The result is that they can easily attack targets way beyond 1000 km, and that capability is only improving with Block's III CFTs, MQ-25 and LRASM.

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 20 Slide08
    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 20 Message-editor%2F1527110793390-range
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    Post  KoTeMoRe on Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:31 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    ... Very simple. It doesn't need to.

    Carrier groups need to be close enough to their targets because of their primary assets being planes.
    For instance the F-18 has a range of about 780 km. There's work done to extend that to 1080 km.

    This means that in order for the US to be able to strike anything in theatre they need to be within range.

    It is so stupid that even outlets like Popular mechanics have covered this.

    https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a18211702/fa-18-super-hornet-longer-legs-fuel-tanks-range/#:~:text=The%20problem%3A%20the%20U.S.%20Navy's,in%20range%20of%20Chinese%20missiles.

    That is not correct. F-18 has more or less range depending on payload, EFTs, IFR etc., so that value above needs to be explained. And you have to add the range of the AShMs they carry to their own combat radius. The result is that they can easily attack targets way beyond 1000 km, and that capability is only improving with Block's III CFTs, MQ-25 and LRASM.

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    We are speaking about range, not radius.
    The current range is 780km this is intended as the capability of flight, fight and return. This means that the actual radius is under 400 km.

    As for the next step which would get the F-18F go up to 1080 km (actually more like 970km) it still means that the Carrier would be within the threshold of the Tsirkon in case it would be air launched. Let alone launched from concealment (like a container or a fishing boat). Radius even with ASHM becomes a little above 525 km. This means ANY CG asset stays within reach of weapons like Tsirkon and DF-21. And then there's Kinzhal.

    "On May 23, 2018, Boeing hosted a media day at its offices in Washington, D.C. to provide the latest updates on the program’s status. According to its latest budget request for the 2019 fiscal year and associated documentation, the Navy intends to purchase 110 new F/A-18E/F aircraft in the Block III configuration over a four year period. The service also plans to upgrade at least a portion of its 540 existing Super Hornets to the new standard as part of a service life modification program, or SLM, that will run through at least 2025."

    This is purely on a technical basis, we aren't speaking of the tactical issues that arise from taking on the Russian coast. Which are ironically far more problematic than the ASHM's the Russian Navy has at disposal.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:05 pm

    Arrow wrote:Interesting why they shoot Zircon all the time at about 500km?

    Simple: they don't want to divulge the details to competition



    Now as for why they keep talking about targeting aircraft carriers it's not because they see them as something unusually dangerous (dozen destroyers armed with cruise missiles are way more dangerous in peer-to-peer conflict) but because they are big targets whose sinking would stop enemy fleet dead in it's tracks

    If you sink all escort ships (multiple smaller targets) with all hands on deck you still only kill ~1600 people and aircraft are still in the game

    But if you sink carrier you are potentially killing 6000 personnel, causing nuclear disaster and forcing rest of the fleet to choose between continuing with their original mission or canceling everything in order to provide assistance to survivors



    Conclusion is simple: target the weak spot that causes maximum damage with minimum effort and highest chances of success




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    Post  LMFS on Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:43 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    We are speaking about range, not radius.

    They are stating literally "combat radius" in the images I posted...

    If you check the technical characteristics of the plane you will see 700 km max range is completely off. BTW, US military services always give the data in form of combat radius according to the different missions' load and flight profile.


    The current range is 780km this is intended as the capability of flight, fight and return. This means that the actual radius is under 400 km
    .

    No way, check the data I am linking or other official plane data. There are tons of sources, for instance:

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 20 3130_r10

    As for the next step which would get the F-18F go up to 1080 km (actually more like 970km) it still means that the Carrier would be within the threshold of the Tsirkon in case it would be air launched.

    No, and we are not even considering IFR. The MQ-25 is intended to transfer almost 7 t of fuel at the distance of 500 nm from the carrier.

    “The MQ-25 will give us the ability to extend the air wing out probably 300 or 400 miles beyond where we typically go. We will be able to do that and sustain a nominal number of airplanes at that distance,” Shoemaker said in an exclusive interview in the September issue of Proceedings.
    “That will extend the reach of the air wing, and when we combine that with additional weapons we are buying, we will get an impressive reach.”

    The strike range of a carrier air wing is now only about 450 nautical miles – the effective unrefueled radius of a Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. The additional 300 to 400 miles could potentially extend the reach of the fighters up to or beyond 700 nautical miles.


    https://news.usni.org/2017/08/31/mq-25-stingray-unmanned-aerial-tanker-almost-double-strike-range-u-s-carrier-air-wing

    Radius even with ASHM becomes a little above 525 km.

    This is far off. Only the LRASM has a estimated range bigger than that, not even counting the range of the aircraft launching it...

    Papa Dragon wrote:Now as for why they keep talking about targeting aircraft carriers it's not because they see them as something unusually dangerous (dozen destroyers armed with cruise missiles are way more dangerous in peer-to-peer conflict) but because they are big targets whose sinking would stop enemy fleet dead in it's tracks

    Actually they don't need Tsirkon to defend their country's territory. But far from Russia the main component and enabler of the USN is the carrier and therefore sinking it removes the airborne detection and strike means from the equation and renders the USN highly vulnerable.

    As said, Tsirkon is a weapon for changing the global naval balance of power, not simply reinforcing the already overwhelming capability of Russia to repel a surface group from striking their territory.


    Last edited by LMFS on Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:35 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)
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    Post  lyle6 on Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:38 pm

    If the mission expects zero enemy air interdiction, then yeah, the nominal combat radius applies. But if even a few jets show up the whole strike package must reserve large fuel fractions for maneuvering, and since no sane planner is willing to risk lives and material on such a slim chance, the combat radius gets cut and the carrier gets even closer for its mission. Virtual attrition, not even right out of the gate.

    Another thing to note is that all the new build Russian ships are actually stealth ships. 1st gen stealth but the effect is there: frigates and corvettes are small hard to detect ships but with stealth features they are even harder to detect. At any one point there must be hundreds of much larger merchant shipping and thousands of smaller ships like fishing boats just strewn across the waters across Russia's coast. The frigates and corvettes can simply blend in with the traffic and mask themselves as innocent shipping and what is the carrier going to do about it?
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:50 pm

    LMFS wrote:As said, Tsirkon is a weapon for changing the global naval balance of power, not simply reinforcing the already overwhelming capability of Russia to repel a surface group from striking their territory.

    True

    What will be keeping Russian coastline safe in the future will be Kinzhal: comparatively cheaper, simpler and easier to manufacture with crazy range and speed

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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:08 pm

    It's blatantly just a bloody Onyx

    Russia doing things on the cheap. Hyping up as much as it can, then sticking an Iskander onto a MiG-31 and calling it hypersonic, modifying an Onyx to fly a bit further and faster and calling it hypersonic.

    Bunch of cheapskates in power
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:57 pm

    flamming_python wrote:...Bunch of cheapskates in power

    That's rich coming from a commie lol1

    Tell me, how much spending was your gang willing to make when they were running the (clown)show?

    Scum wouldn't even buy human-grade food for troops or design a non-50's rocket engine for space program for decades on end



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    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:57 am

    flamming_python wrote:It's blatantly just a bloody Onyx

    Russia doing things on the cheap. Hyping up as much as it can, then sticking an Iskander onto a MiG-31 and calling it hypersonic, modifying an Onyx to fly a bit further and faster and calling it hypersonic.

    Bunch of cheapskates in power

    Is this sarcasm? Or are you just bloody stupid? Suspect
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:02 am

    PapaDragon wrote:But if you sink carrier you are potentially killing 6000 personnel, causing nuclear disaster and forcing rest of the fleet to choose between continuing with their original mission or canceling everything in order to provide assistance to survivors

    Just hitting a carrier and setting it on fire will force the USN to divert war-fighting assets from the battle in order to protect the ship from further attacks. A carrier goes from being an asset to a liability in a flash (of RDX...)
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:31 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:Is this sarcasm? Or are you just bloody stupid?  Suspect

    According to the absolute truth they know and the rest of us unbelievers ignore, Russia should have crumbled under the current government because there is no way a non-marxist regime could have the answers needed by Russia. In reality it was their boys that failed in every possible way and finished the show by signing the most harmful capitulation possible to the West, while Putin is massively succeeding without revolutions, blood shedding and oppression... it is hard to live with such a massive cognitive dissonance and hold on to your "faith", soon facts stop being relevant and it does not matter that no fvcking anyone else has such weapons or that Russia has just turned hundred of billions of US naval investment into dust. This is one of the biggest triumphs of Russia in its recent history no matter how you want to spin it...

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    Post  kvs on Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:44 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Is this sarcasm? Or are you just bloody stupid?  Suspect

    According to the absolute truth they know and the rest of us unbelievers ignore, Russia should have crumbled under the current government because there is no way a non-marxist regime could have the answers needed by Russia. In reality it was their boys that failed in every possible way and finished the show by signing the most harmful capitulation possible to the West, while Putin is massively succeeding without revolutions, blood shedding and oppression... it is hard to live with such a massive cognitive dissonance and hold on to your "faith", soon facts stop being relevant and it does not matter that no fvcking anyone else has such weapons or that Russia has just turned hundred of billions of US naval investment into dust. This is one of the biggest triumphs of Russia in its recent history no matter how you want to spin it...

    Gotta love that "on the cheap" spiel. Because every weapons system in Russia including the S-400 is just some cheap copy of a Soviet design.

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    Post  kvs on Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:51 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:It's blatantly just a bloody Onyx

    Russia doing things on the cheap. Hyping up as much as it can, then sticking an Iskander onto a MiG-31 and calling it hypersonic, modifying an Onyx to fly a bit further and faster and calling it hypersonic.

    Bunch of cheapskates in power

    Is this sarcasm? Or are you just bloody stupid?  Suspect

    A Trotskyist needs to Trotsky.

    The only reason the USSR achieved anything was because the people swallowed and shat out the system imposed on them. It even went so far
    that butcher Trotsky got the justice he so richly deserved. Bolshies claiming credit for achievements of the USSR is obscene.

    Seriously, the "things on the cheap" claim is logically equivalent to claiming that Avangard, Burevestnik, Kinzhal, etc., are all fakes that exist
    only in Putin's CGI clips. Because Russians are too dumb to do anything and need specially self chosen western sponsored emo-commies
    or liberasts to do all their thinking for them.



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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:16 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:It's blatantly just a bloody Onyx

    Russia doing things on the cheap. Hyping up as much as it can, then sticking an Iskander onto a MiG-31 and calling it hypersonic, modifying an Onyx to fly a bit further and faster and calling it hypersonic.

    Bunch of cheapskates in power

    Is this sarcasm? Or are you just bloody stupid? Suspect

    Commies everywhere are panicking these days because they can see that the writing is on the wall for their little crime cult everywhere and in Russia especially

    Modern Russians for the first time in their entire history have food security, healthcare, education, advanced infrastructure, technology, public safety, national security, economy, private property and prospects for the future

    They had some of these things in various points in history but never all at once and especially not during communism (when they had maybe one of those and still of inferior quality)

    Commies know that their time is up, thanks to internet they can no longer hide their endless failures and everyone can see how their ideological cousins are crumbling and failing from Brussels to streets of USA

    They hoped that chaos of the 90s would bring them back to power in Russia (and they actively assisted with implementing it) but Russia pulled itself together without them and now they are dumbfounded and horrified

    They aren't even second most popular political option in Russia because they are being overtaken by ultranationalists and slowly thrown into trashcan of history



    They came into power century ago by exploiting tragedy of war and betraying their own nation on the false promise of peace and food and they immediately started bloody Civil War and genocide of majority and even after all the wars ended (thanks to sacrifice and heroism of countless Russians for which commies took all the credit) in the 40s and after 30 years of peace they still failed at even the simplest task of feeding their own subjugated population by the time 70s rolled around

    USSR didn't starve then because in July 1972 capitalist USA chose to not let them starve



    Only absolute lowlife and degenerate today in Russia can choose to be a communist knowing what transpired in the past and those who do so need to be grateful every day for the fact that they are not being rightfully euthanized (yet) for being treasonous maggots



    Some day this crazy world will get it's shit together and when it happens we will finally be able to dedicate ourselves to the goal of tracking down and exterminating every last commie and their offspring in every corner of the world otherwise we all risk another cultural and physical genocide


    Nothing mankind creates and accomplishes will ever be safe as long as there is even a single communist left alive to spread it's filthy disease


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    Post  lyle6 on Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:28 am


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    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:00 am

    So the Onyx can do at most Mach 2 but the Zircon test was over Mach 8. Peak altitude of the Onyx is 14 km, so it never leaves
    the troposphere. The Zircon test hit the mid-upper stratosphere at 28 km. But I know, those numbers are all fake.

    The Mig-31 does not reach Mach 3, but supposedly it manages to fake the Mach 10 of the Kinzhal. What sort of retard
    thinks that launching a missile at under Mach 3 makes it a fake hypersonic? So Mach 7 is now officially the Trotskyist
    definition of supersonic? India must be hoodwinked somehow that BrahMos-II will be doing Mach 7-8. Supposedly that
    is obsolete tech. Where are all the Mach 7 missiles outside of ICBMs and SLBMs in the possession of the super
    rich Americans? Are they also doing everything "on the cheap" with their $700 billion annual military budget?

    Russia haters are indeed mentally deficient. Take your Trotskyist ideology and form a colony on some island.

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    Post  Arrow on Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:42 am

    LMFS wrote:
    Against an eventual battle group approaching Russian shores Kinzhal is the best, safest and fastest solution. Hence nobody will try their luck, it is just too stupid to come in range of such weapon. Tsirkon just reinforces those defences, but its main contribution is deterrence for ocean deployed VMF groups.

    Yes but in general the Tsirkon is a much more advanced weapon than the Kindzal. The 3M22 missile is a breakthrough, while the Kindzal is an ordinary ballistic missile that follows an aerobalistic trajectory and can maneuver in a limited way. Thanks to the scramjet engine, the Tsirkon drive is probably working most of the time, thanks to which it can perform a large number of vertical and horizontal maneuvers without losing a lot of energy, which it will recover from the drive. The Kindzał is powered by a rocket motor that operates briefly. It continues to fly kinetically. Each maneuver costs him a lot of energy and loses speed. Its advantage over the Tsirkon is its range of about 2000 km. However, we do not know how much the maximum range of Tsirkon is really? Over 1000 km can be as much as 1500 km. For this it is a compact missile. It can be carried by all new WMF ships, all new submarines.This is a much more dangerous and more modern weapon than the Kindzal.In addition, Russia does not even want to reveal what it looks like. Kindzal is known as Iskander and there are many pictures of Kindzal himself as well.
    .
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 13, 2020 10:13 am

    Look at the effectiveness of Azerbaijan in targeting Armenian forces.

    Better to look at the destruction of drones in Syria by Russian forces... for which they are developing simpler and cheaper options to engage drones more efficiently and effectively.

    The SM-6 missile is too weak to fight Zircon.

    In its current form I would agree but it is their best choice to develop a solution from and a reasonable starting point for use against air breathing hypersonic weapons and ballistic weapons launched from IRBMs.

    It is a missile with a velocity of only 3.5M and a ceiling of about 30km. Zircon is likely to fly at altitudes over 30 km, so it will be elusive all the way. Only in the terminal phase there are minimal chances. The US currently has no missiles that can intercept 3M22.

    Nobody does, but you don't need the speed to chase down a target... these missiles are heading towards the ships... all you need to do is put shrapnel in the path of one of these missiles at the time when they are passing the intercept point... a tennis ball can be moving quite fast but the tennis racket just needs to be in the right place at the right time moving in the right direction to intercept and return the ball over the net.

    The frigate 22350 or smaller ships will sink everything within a radius of over 1000km if armed with 3M22. even an aircraft carrier. The era of aircraft carriers is almost over.

    Frigates and corvettes don't have the endurance to operate for long periods away from home waters and away from land based air power... and would be totally useless trying to support the two new helicopter landing carriers they are building.... they could sink carriers but barely carry enough SAMs to defend themselves let alone a Helicopter carrier.

    The purpose of a navy is not to sink US carriers, the purpose of a Russian carrier is to support Russian naval operations away from Russian waters... the carriers are there to provide early warning of attacks and to allow attacks to be blunted well away from the carrier group itself.

    If you want to sink an enemy carrier send a Yasen or Oscar II.

    They can only be used against poorly advanced opponents.

    They will be used against everybody... they are vastly more valuable than an ICBM that sits in its silo waiting to be used for WWIII, they will be part of the force structure as it travels around the place making things safer and more effective...

    Interesting why they shoot Zircon all the time at about 500km?

    Just a test. Make sure it works before putting it into service and then start challenging it by trying to hit defended targets and improve it (and your defences).

    Yasens can hunt and sink Carriers and other ships but it is pretty useless to support ships being attacked by enemy airpower based on land or at sea.

    In fact, the only surface group capable of fighting an enemy at 1000 km and beyond, based in their own means, is a carrier battle group. Any other surface vessel is not even potentially capable of detecting a potential aggressor before it gets in range to launch and keep it away.

    Exactly... it makes carriers more critical not obsolete...

    How do they get, unnoticed, to the positions from where to attack from 10 different directions, by teleporting?

    Coming from different directions is not that hard... in fact with 5 separate fleets I would expect coming from more than one direction will be much easier than coming from two or more...

    How would they safely operate in radar silence? This is not possible for surface fleets without airborne radars as discussed, and active radar allows for significant OTH detection of their signatures by opponents.

    The modern replacement for Legenda should allow them to determine the location of the targeted carrier group... the radar emissions from the AWACS platform alone should be detectable at enormous ranges...

    (Tsirkon surface carriers do not pop up in the middle of the sea but come from somewhere and go somewhere)

    With Yasen... yes they could, but with a 10,000 missile Harpoon and Tomahawk attack that would be needed to start sinking Russian carrier group ships they are going to need a lot of launch platforms with lots of communications and coordination...

    and add their ca. 500 km radar horizon to that. It is a stretch for the AWACS group onboard, limits the time on station a bit and reduces the amount of directions around itself the CBG can keep under control, but it is doable in principle.

    Why do you think they could only keep one AWACS aircraft airborne at any one time... and why do you assume just one carrier?

    Against an eventual battle group approaching Russian shores Kinzhal is the best, safest and fastest solution.

    Of course. I have never suggested Russian carriers for the purpose of fighting the US in WWIII type scenarios.... that would be a terrible waste of resources, but would also be their best chance of having ships surviving, though I would expect in WWIII like scenarios any Russian carrier groups would be called back to help defend the motherland.

    That is not correct. F-18 has more or less range depending on payload, EFTs, IFR etc., so that value above needs to be explained. And you have to add the range of the AShMs they carry to their own combat radius. The result is that they can easily attack targets way beyond 1000 km, and that capability is only improving with Block's III CFTs, MQ-25 and LRASM.

    Very true but works both ways... a US carrier attacking mainland Russia has F-18s with inflight refuelling going in and coming back with 900km range JDAM ER or whatever they call their weapons... the point is that a MiG-31 with Kinzhal can reach 2,700km... but it can reach that distance very very fast and the first 700km will be covered in about 13 minutes by the MiG flying at mach 2.8, while the remaining 2,000km will be covered at much much higher speeds...

    This means ANY CG asset stays within reach of weapons like Tsirkon and DF-21. And then there's Kinzhal.

    Kinzhal will be the primary weapon used for the job I suspect... though they might be busy taking out Japanese ships in the Pacific to start with...

    Hyping up as much as it can, then sticking an Iskander onto a MiG-31 and calling it hypersonic,

    Iskander is already mach 7 in the ground launched version and was designed to manouver and use tricks to get past SAMs, so the ground launched model was already hypersonic and manouvering... the air launched model benefits from being launched at high altitude and high speed and becomes an even more capable weapon on the cheap... it is actually brilliant.

    modifying an Onyx to fly a bit further and faster and calling it hypersonic.

    Bunch of cheapskates in power

    Yes... what bastards... developing potent capable weapons quickly and cheaply... think of the shareholders... Suspect

    What they need is a faster Onyx... it already did the job. This new weapon uses scramjet propulsion (ramjet is not capable of getting much above mach 7 or so)... so fundamentally it is new.

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    Post  Arrow on Tue Oct 13, 2020 11:20 am

    It turns out that Tsirkon looks completely different than the Russians themselves presented on this patent.

    3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Cruise Missile - Page 20 Patent11
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:41 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    Yes but in general the Tsirkon is a much more advanced weapon than the Kindzal. The 3M22 missile is a breakthrough,

    I can agree, and still Kinzhal is perfectly effective and being air launched it allows to react much faster than sea based weapon systems and to remain stand-off, two critical advantages that Russia can apply when covering their own territory. Maybe they develop some air-launched Tsirkon variant that has even more range than Kinzhal, seems quite possible, but until now it is not necessary.

    It turns out that Tsirkon looks completely different than the Russians themselves presented on this patent.

    Was it ever confirmed to be a patent of Tsirkon?

    GarryB wrote:Exactly... it makes carriers more critical not obsolete...

    Sure. We have time to see what happens in the end... I am pretty sure in ten years the carriers will not be gone but rather their AD will improve and their air wings will be able to operate much further from the CBG. I have patience Very Happy


    Coming from different directions is not that hard... in fact with 5 separate fleets I would expect coming from more than one direction will be much easier than coming from two or more...

    Converging fleets can be detected and countered or avoided by the carrier fleet too.... they don't move faster or further than a CVN


    The modern replacement for Legenda should allow them to determine the location of the targeted carrier group... the radar emissions from the AWACS platform alone should be detectable at enormous ranges...

    They cannot have their radars off unless they want to be defenceless against attacks. There are many assets in the battlefield emitting and they can be permanently under radiation from ships, aircraft and satellites, so their location can be perfectly available to a potential enemy that can attack anytime. Keeping your radar off in a battle is a suicide.

    With Yasen...

    I said surface carriers, I also said some posts above that against CBGs the proper tool are subs.

    Why do you think they could only keep one AWACS aircraft airborne at any one time... and why do you assume just one carrier?

    The first because this is how CBGs use to operate (outer battle order in the times of Cold War) in function of repair, preparation, station and travel times of the aircraft and how they determine the size of their AWACS wing, we know it can be increased but not by much. Of course more CBGs can be combined to increase their surveillance capabilities on the short term, but it is clear that the longer the AWACS operates from the carrier, the more sea area and air volume needs to be explored and the fewer time the AWACS has on station.


    Very true but works both ways... a US carrier attacking mainland Russia has F-18s with inflight refuelling going in and coming back with 900km range JDAM ER or whatever they call their weapons... the point is that a MiG-31 with Kinzhal can reach 2,700km... but it can reach that distance very very fast and the first 700km will be covered in about 13 minutes by the MiG flying at mach 2.8, while the remaining 2,000km will be covered at much much higher speeds...

    That is why it needs to be differentiated between land based and sea based forces. In the remote oceanic zones a CBG is king, but against Russian land based naval strike forces they are defenceless

    Yes... what bastards... developing potent capable weapons quickly and cheaply... think of the shareholders...

    Hahaha, pretty much...
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:59 pm

    So much butthurt here. It's like I'm calling out the Emperor for having no clothes

    And yet. It's an Onyx clown

    Nothing new here by the new Russia, private property et al.

    Prove me wrong people. Prove me wrong.

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    dino00
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:30 pm

    I doubt there will be a air-launched Zirkon, but Russia already tested an hipersonic air-launched missile are we forgetting this one?

    From May
    Russia tests new hypersonic missile designed for Tu-22M3M strategic bomber - source

    https://tass.com/defense/1154995

    And the SU-57 hypersonic prototype missile
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:35 pm

    flamming_python wrote:So much butthurt here. It's like I'm calling out the Emperor for having no clothes

    No, it's like you being butt naked and bleeding from your asshole while trying to call out Emperor for being naked while he is wearing Armani suit and pimp-cane



    flamming_python wrote:And yet. It's an Onyx clown

    Onyx that flies at Mach 8, yes

    Sounds like money well spent (You know who doesn't spend money well? Commies Razz )



    flamming_python wrote:Nothing new here by the new Russia, private property et al.

    Nothing new... except apparently a paintjob that makes missiles fly 4 times faster than material physically allows it

    If someone's dick suddenly grew to 4 times the original size I'd say we could definitely call him a new man Cool



    flamming_python wrote:Prove me wrong people. Prove me wrong.

    You asked and you received

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    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:No, it's like you being butt naked and bleeding from your asshole while trying to call out Emperor for being naked while he is wearing Armani suit and pimp-cane

    If someone's dick suddenly grew to 4 times the original size I'd say we could definitely call him a new man Cool

    You asked and you received

    A bunch of gross phallic innuendo from the mind of PapaDragon in relation to a new/old cruise missile?

    Stick to the subject matter please. Tnx
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    Post  LMFS on Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:48 pm

    flamming_python wrote:So much butthurt here. It's like I'm calling out the Emperor for having no clothes

    And yet. It's an Onyx clown

    Nothing new here by the new Russia, private property et al.

    Prove me wrong people. Prove me wrong.

    The only butt-hurt I see is yours, plus denial, paranoia and projection in spades, sorry to say but it is bizarre that you don't notice the extremes you come to in order to avoid reality from bursting your bubble. It is you that has to prove it is just an Oniks and nothing more. It was said not so long ago that Oniks would be modified for 5 M and 800 km range, what makes you think that Tsirkon cannot be similar? Not even to consider that having seen so little of the missile to make conclusions is clearly premature...

    BTW "Russia private property" has been nationalizing companies like there is no tomorrow and practices state capitalism pretty much like "communist" China does, has just enshrined in the constitution the social nature of the state plus is bringing to fruition all those advanced projects that Gorbachev and the rest of the communist traitors & scum ruined and ended up giving for free to the West, plus implementing many more new initiatives. Really, after what they did to Russia and soviet / Eastern countries it would be nice if commies find a hole in the ground and stay there with their mouths well closed for the foreseeable future.

    dino00 wrote:I doubt there will be a air-launched Zirkon, but Russia already tested an hipersonic air-launched missile are we forgetting this one?

    From May
    Russia tests new hypersonic missile designed for Tu-22M3M strategic bomber - source

    https://tass.com/defense/1154995

    And the SU-57 hypersonic prototype missile

    There is a number of hypersonic weapons being developed in Russia, the ones for the Tu-22M3M and Su-57 are clearly smaller in size compared to Tsirkon in order to fit in the bays of those carriers, but (maybe) an air launched version of the later could fit in the bays of the Tu-160 or PAK-DA, or even be carried externally by Flanker family planes. It is always cheaper and faster to modify a weapon for a new use than designing it from scratch...

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