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63 posters

    Development Projects of Russia: Industry, Energy and Infastructure

    lancelot
    lancelot


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    Post  lancelot Thu Apr 11, 2024 2:03 am

    mnztr wrote:Been reading about the evil shit the US is doing to try and stop Arctic LNG 2. Seems they have stuck the Koreans with 3 Arc 7 class tankers that are useless else where. Why won't Korea just sell them to a Chinese shipping company that will move LNG from Russia to China? Seems this would be pretty much sanction proof at the trade can happen in Yuan. China can even pay for the ships in Yuan which Chinese/Korean trade can easily absorb. Trade is like 150B between the two.
    The ships are partly owned by the Japanese. They would have to sell their share of the ships to someone else. I think the South Korean shipyards should just cancel the contracts due to customer payment noncompliance and sell the ships to however pays more. But you can bet Uncle Scumbag will press the South Korean government for these ships never to be delivered to anyone.
    PhSt
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    Post  PhSt Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:24 am

    After googling Arc7 tanker I found this article dated in mid 2022



    Arc7 Ice-Class LNG Tankers, Russia

    Zvezda Shipbuilding Complex is building 15 next-generation Arc7 ice-class LNG tankers to serve Russia's Arctic LNG 2 project.

    Russian shipbuilding company, Zvezda Shipbuilding Complex, is building a series of 15 next-generation Arc7 ice-class liquefied natural gas (LNG) tankers, for PJSC Novatek’s Arctic LNG 2 project in Gydan Peninsula in northern Siberia, Russia.

    The Arc7 ice-class LNG tanker fleet will form the core of the Arctic fleet to transport LNG from the Arctic LNG 2 project, and ensure year-round navigation along the Northern Sea Route, including its Eastern section, throughout the year. The vessels will supply LNG to the Asian Pacific region and boost the development of the Russian shipbuilding industry.

    The new LNG tankers will have increased icebreaking and manoeuvring characteristics, compared to the existing fleet used by Novatek’s Yamal LNG project. The carriers will be registered under the Russian Federation and operated by a Russian crew.

    Scheduled for delivery between 2023 and 2025, the new fleet of 15 Arc7 ice-class tankers will be owned and operated by Smart LNG, which was established as a joint venture (JV) between Novatek and Sovcomflot in September 2019. The vessels will be leased to Sovcomflot, under a long-term contract signed between the two companies.

    https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/arc7-ice-class-lng-tanker/?cf-view



    I'm not sure what these 3 Arc7 tankers are doing in a South Korea, perhaps a Korean shipyard has been contracted to build an additional 3 more ships of this class on top of the 15 in Russia's Zvezda shipyard?


    In the bottom part of the article, It seems whoever conceived the design of this ship has never learned from the Mistral fiasco  Rolling Eyes



    The propulsion units for the LNG tankers will be supplied by General Electric (GE). French engineering company, Gaztransport & Technigaz (GTT), is responsible for designing  tanks for the Arc7 LNG vessels.

    Again, why source the propulsion units from countries that have sworn to destroy Russia?? This is another reckless move by the ship's design team  Rolling Eyes

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:59 am

    Zvezda's only sin is thinking too highly of their business partners in the west. They never thought that western companies would be retarded enough to overlook their own interest and commit economic seppuku. Because nothing kills a business like destroying the trust that you will hold up your own side of the bargain.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 11, 2024 7:57 am

    I think the South Korean shipyards should just cancel the contracts due to customer payment noncompliance and sell the ships to however pays more

    Not sure it could be that simple... it was South Korea that is breaking the contract... Russia is willing to pay... it is South Korea refusing payment because of pressure from the US.

    This is all just an opportunity for Russian companies to expand into production of marine propulsion systems... there should be plenty of work moving forward on a range of different ship sizes and types moving forward...

    Even if they get some made in China as a joint venture... for civilian vessels that would be useful for Russia and good money for China to offset the energy and food they will be buying from Russia.
    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:15 am

    GarryB wrote:
    I think the South Korean shipyards should just cancel the contracts due to customer payment noncompliance and sell the ships to however pays more

    Not sure it could be that simple... it was South Korea that is breaking the contract... Russia is willing to pay... it is South Korea refusing payment because of pressure from the US.

    This is all just an opportunity for Russian companies to expand into production of marine propulsion systems... there should be plenty of work moving forward on a range of different ship sizes and types moving forward...

    Even if they get some made in China as a joint venture... for civilian vessels that would be useful for Russia and good money for China to offset the energy and food they will be buying from Russia.

    Russia shouldn't just be a raw resource and food appendage for China. This is the reason why Russia got into the problem in the first place - relying too much on Europe and the west overall and look how that got them?

    Instead, if Russia will take too long to make propulsions from own design, then they should localize production of Chinese ones and then look at improving it themselves. They could do like in automotive - 50% domestic and then increase that over time.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Thu Apr 11, 2024 8:33 am

    PhSt wrote:A
    I'm not sure what these 3 Arc7 tankers are doing in a South Korea, perhaps a Korean shipyard has been contracted to build an additional 3 more ships of this class on top of the 15 in Russia's Zvezda shipyard?

    They needed more than Zvezda could deliver. It was a part of a whole technology&know&how package transfer.
    Zvezda is principally a Korean standard shipyard, core of the personnel was trained in Hyundai.

    In a whole, a series constructed in Russia has really serious delays because of lacking azipods and thrusters.
    They have tried to localize it's production since 2016, on a basis of Rosneft financed Sapphire - but it is not an easy business.
    They finally will - but delays are hitting 30 months now.

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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:13 am

    lancelot wrote:
    The ships are partly owned by the Japanese. They would have to sell their share of the ships to someone else. I think the South Korean shipyards should just cancel the contracts due to customer payment noncompliance and sell the ships to however pays more. But you can bet Uncle Scumbag will press the South Korean government for these ships never to be delivered to anyone.

    Yes but I have heard due to their ice handling construction the ships are really only useful for arctic ops and would be hopelessly non competitive in normal LNG ops.
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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Fri Apr 12, 2024 12:18 am

    lyle6 wrote:Zvezda's only sin is thinking too highly of their business partners in the west. They never thought that western companies would be retarded enough to overlook their own interest and commit economic seppuku. Because nothing kills a business like destroying the trust that you will hold up your own side of the bargain.

    When you are in international business like the Korean shipyard they kinda have you by the balls. What Russia should do is pass laws on countering non-UNSC sanctions, and allow Russian companies to claim losses against such sanctions and allow Russia to seize or destroy property to equalize losses from offending nations. All they have to do is seize one tanker and insurance rates will soar so high it will bring the whole industry to a grinding halt.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 12, 2024 2:58 am

    Why would they need to pass laws for that... they have contracts and if their partners want to break contracts to avoid US sanctions then Russian companies are obliged to seek compensation.

    Perhaps a new law that allows Russian companies to sue western entities for western sanctions might be a good change too.

    What they should do is reduce energy exports to the rest of the world and reduce or stop Uranium supply to countries that have Russia under sanction.

    The US is working towards becoming independent regarding nuclear fuel processing... last target figure I saw was 2028 or something... they are working to break contacts... why not break now?

    When the land lord tells you he is not renewing your lease in 6 months time because his son needs a place to live and he wants to use the house you are renting, your best response is to find another place to live as fast as you can and move out as soon as you can so he has the house empty for 4 or 5 months.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 12, 2024 3:03 am

    Instead, if Russia will take too long to make propulsions from own design, then they should localize production of Chinese ones and then look at improving it themselves. They could do like in automotive - 50% domestic and then increase that over time.

    I disagree. Get the first ships made in China or buy Chinese engines for them so you can get the ships out into the water and working, and at the same time work on your own replacement engines... with less pressure... eventually when they are ready for operational testing put them on a ship you make extra and get some operational testing.

    In a whole, a series constructed in Russia has really serious delays because of lacking azipods and thrusters.

    These are electric motors and should be all Russian because there is a huge future for electric propulsion motors on land at sea and in the air and Russia has the technology and brains to make very good electric motors... and would benefit from using their own in their own ships.

    Military ships moving forward are likely to transition to electric drive separating power generation with propulsion... so an electric drive ship might be gas turbine or diesel or it might be nuclear power generated... but the propulsion is electric motor.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:38 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Instead, if Russia will take too long to make propulsions from own design, then they should localize production of Chinese ones and then look at improving it themselves. They could do like in automotive - 50% domestic and then increase that over time.

    I disagree. Get the first ships made in China or buy Chinese engines for them so you can get the ships out into the water and working, and at the same time work on your own replacement engines... with less pressure... eventually when they are ready for operational testing put them on a ship you make extra and get some operational testing.

    In a whole, a series constructed in Russia has really serious delays because of lacking azipods and thrusters.

    These are electric motors and should be all Russian because there is a huge future for electric propulsion motors on land at sea and in the air and Russia has the technology and brains to make very good electric motors... and would benefit from using their own in their own ships.

    Military ships moving forward are likely to transition to electric drive separating power generation with propulsion... so an electric drive ship might be gas turbine or diesel or it might be nuclear power generated... but the propulsion is electric motor.


    Its kinda funny that they had ships like this in the 30's. I wonder why they went back to geared steam turbines and then gas turbines and now back to electric drive.
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Fri Apr 12, 2024 7:53 am

    Russia is struggling for azipods replacement since 2014, but it ain't an easy business.
    Only by 2020, Krylov Institute finally managed to construct an electric column thruster that can replace ABB supply.
    But here is a catch : it was up to Arc5 class only, while all the Novatek line is Arc7.
    And here is a second catch - only registration it under GOST standards can take up to 6 years from the point.
    It is impossible to skip that.
    And even if ABB azipods are registered for the class, some issues while operating NSR were reported.
    Russkie are actively working here, but it won't be resolved in a year. It is really advanced technology.
    And it is not that there is no progress there.
    Novatek already operates 15 pcs of Arc7 LNG tankers, and the whole struggle is because of Arctic LNG 2 project that required an additional 15.
    The order was spread in both Korea and Zvezda, but was hit with the sanctions heavily.
    MAN and Vartsila left the project, same the French GTT with membrane technology.
    But again, there is a catch. They formally left, but not the whole of construction Laughing - it seems that the first 4 vessels are ready. And the same applies to the two floating storage bases, which are formally not affected by the EU sanctions Laughing Laughing
    And - again - a second catch Laughing Laughing  is that Krylov already had a working substitution to GTT membrane back in 2014. Not implementing it was just politics, the same kind of as with Mistrals.
    They only needed to improve glueing, make a new generation of glues.
    And last but not least, there is always a Plan B and C.
    Novatek Arc7 LNG carriers are top notch. A really high end vessels, with lots of state of the art technologies taken from the best world's maritime suppliers.
    But it is not that nobody have been building less advanced pieces to do the job.
    They can go back any moment, and construct an LNG carrier with desired ice class, using conventional technology.
    It will be powered by single-fuel engine, not multifuel one as now. It will be powered by a traditional shafts&screws, with a traditional steering column. Yes, that would reduce the cargo by some 15%, but that's it.
    Why they are not doing that?
    Well ... because construction seems to ongoing at all the hulls involved in sanctioning process Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
    Is it being made by alternative supply chain, or some stored parts, is formally unknown - but all the satellite pics presents a steady progress for an entire series under construction ...

    And last but not least, there are the Chinese, who offered to build those already in 2020 Laughing

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Apr 12, 2024 11:06 am

    Arctic LNG 2 project that required an additional 15.
    When there are any delays, most likely the LNG price will go up a bit.
    In the end a win for Russia.

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