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    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:56 am

    Helos can help them to survive & enjoy life better;

    Actually the opposite... having to stock a remote location using only helicopters would make it enormously expensive to support them... even a light helicopter will cost a thousand dollars an hour, a big helicopter will cost ten times that... any supplies that come in by helicopter will be emergency only because there wont be many things important enough to justify the cost.

    Monthly or every two to three week deliveries would be done by An-2s for a fraction of the cost of any helo type including tiny robinson types used for training.

    An An-2 could operate on skis during winter and during the summer could land on 200m long flat strips of ground... a 30m long helicopter like a Chinook is going to need a clear area of ground not that much smaller to safely land and take off. The An-2 is faster, longer ranged and much much cheaper to buy and to operate.

    once the economy improves & it becomes feasible, some more roads could be built.

    Using only helos or tilt rotors to support communities in the far east and far north would be counter productive and make it more expensive to support instead of less expensive. They would be better off continuing to use An-2s and An-26s and now the upgraded An-2s and Il-112s and Il-114s.

    There r 28K settlements w/o roads to reach them.

    Many of the settlements have gotten along just fine with only occasional access to the rest of the world and are generally largely self sufficient.

    Most of the time a group like reindeer herders really only need to send off skins or meat a couple of times a season at best and are already supported by existing aircraft.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:25 pm

    Actually the opposite... having to stock a remote location using only helicopters would make it enormously expensive to support them...
    They been doing it since the 1st serialy produced helos appeared in the USSR.
    Abandoning properties in those locations &/ the lives lost would be even more expensive...
    Decades more will pass before more infrastructure is built at a lo$$, or just to break even, much less bring profit:
    https://lenta.ru/articles/2019/03/25/back/

    Monthly or every two to three week deliveries would be done by An-2s for a fraction of the cost of any helo type including tiny robinson types used for training.
    true, but only where airstrips r present & if they can be safely used.

    a 30m long helicopter like a Chinook is going to need a clear area of ground not that much smaller to safely land and take off.
    An-2 Minimum SL Take-Off Run: 560 feet. [170.688 Meters]
    Typical SL Landing distance over 50 foot obstacle: 1400 feet.[426.72 Meters]

    http://www.an2flyers.org/an2specs.html

    No helo needs that much space for VTO& Ls, even a tilt-rotor doing rolling TOs.  

    Using only helos or tilt rotors to support communities in the far east and far north would be counterproductive and make it more expensive to support instead of less expensive.
    I never implied "Using only helos or tilt rotors" where fixed wings could be used for le$$. But even there, with more forest fires & flooding, helos r essential for delivering/extracting firefighters, medics & conduct evacuations from boats, hilltops & rooftops.

    Many of the settlements have gotten along just fine with only occasional access to the rest of the world and are generally largely self sufficient.
    People want to live better in the 21st century.
    Businesses &/ police/FSB/military will want/need to expand there & will pay for 24/7/365 access, & in most weather conditions.

    ..75-80% of all weapons of the Indian army are Soviet or Russian. And the leadership of the country considered that it was short-sighted to depend on a single arms supplier. Therefore, sometimes in tenders for the supply of various types of military equipment, even if Russian offers compare favorably with competitors’ products in terms of cost-effectiveness, the choice is not in our favor. ..
    A fully agreed contract for the supply of 48 Mi-17V-5 helicopters to India is now up in the air.

    http://nvo.ng.ru/realty/2019-09-13/13_1061_partner.html?print=Y

    So, they may not get as many Mi-17V-5s, if at all! 15 ordered CH-47Fs=~30 Mi-17s, so that leaves 48-30=18 Mi-17V-5s if they absolutely need them.

    Ka-102 [will be]- the fastest helicopter in the world


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:32 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote, text, links)
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:24 am

    They been doing it since the 1st serialy produced helos appeared in the USSR.
    Abandoning properties in those locations &/ the lives lost would be even more expensive...

    To put it in context a helicopter is a useful transport item for medical and emergency services. They are enormously expensive to buy and to operate, but then the average fully equipped ambulance is not cheaper and is very much disadvantaged in many big cities because of issues with traffic and accessing where the patient happens to be.

    Even with modern road and rail infrastructure a helicopter makes sense.

    If however you are talking about the far north of Russia it would take longer but you could make long trips via ground vehicles... they have a very wide range of types including wheeled and tracked vehicles. No roads, but no need for roads because these are rugged cross country vehicles designed for arctic conditions. They can travel thousands of kms in relative safety with little chance of a crash... though they might get stuck they generally operate in groups that can help each other out of problem situations. But why do they bother if helicopters are so perfect and other aircraft impossible?

    true, but only where airstrips r present & if they can be safely used.

    An-2s are designed to operate from rough air strips... which means unprepared flat areas of ground... if fitted with skis that includes frozen rivers and lakes or areas of packed down snow.

    An-2 Minimum SL Take-Off Run: 560 feet. [170.688 Meters]
    Typical SL Landing distance over 50 foot obstacle: 1400 feet.[426.72 Meters]
    http://www.an2flyers.org/an2specs.html

    No helo needs that much space for VTO& Ls, even a tilt-rotor doing rolling TOs.

    The stall speed of the new An-2 means that if there is a strong head wind they can actually fly backwards. In a place the size of Siberia finding 250m of flat snow to land on is not a huge problem... a small HE charge will drop a 50 foot obstacle easily enough.

    I never implied "Using only helos or tilt rotors" where fixed wings could be used for le$$. But even there, with more forest fires & flooding, helos r essential for delivering/extracting firefighters, medics & conduct evacuations from boats, hilltops & rooftops.

    They don't have a shortage of helos for that, what they need more of are fire fighting aircraft like Be-200 and A-42s.

    And the leadership of the country considered that it was short-sighted to depend on a single arms supplier. Therefore, sometimes in tenders for the supply of various types of military equipment, even if Russian offers compare favorably with competitors’ products in terms of cost-effectiveness, the choice is not in our favor. ..

    Which is fucking stupid. Such a policy is ridiculous. You should buy the best for the job at hand... except when the provider has a history of unreliability... that would be France and Britain and the US, but not Russia ironically.

    Such a policy led to years using INSAS rifles...

    So, they may not get as many Mi-17V-5s, if at all! 15 ordered CH-47Fs=~30 Mi-17s, so that leaves 48-30=18 Mi-17V-5s if they absolutely need them.

    Based on their retarded logic they should not buy any... Russia can find some other customer who is not deranged.



    Thus, its take-off weight will be close to 30 tons. It will replace the Soviet "Mi-6", as derived from service in 2004. The crew of the aircraft will consist of two people. "Ka-102" will be able to fly at a speed of 500 km/h at distances up to 1100 km; flight altitude may exceed 4 kilometers.

    Replacing the Mi-6 is more likely the new Chinese and Russian joint venture helo in the 10-15 ton payload range... Kamov have already said they have designs able to fly faster than 500km/h using turbofans and wings, so even if it gets the title fastest helo, it wont hold it long.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:06 am

    To put it in context a helicopter is a useful transport item for medical and emergency services. They are enormously expensive to buy and to operate, ..
    Passanger Mi-4/6/8/17s been used on regularly scheduled flights in Siberia/FN/FE, despite the cost-as there r often no other way to get from point A to point B there.
    If however you are talking about the far north of Russia it would take longer but you could make long trips via ground vehicles...No roads, but no need for roads because these are rugged cross country vehicles designed for arctic conditions.
    but they r not tanks to go through the thick taiga; helos can fly at treetop level & over marshes/rivers/lakes/mountains & find a clearing to land in an emergency.
    An-2s are designed to operate from rough air strips... which means unprepared flat areas of ground... if fitted with skis that includes frozen rivers and lakes or areas of packed down snow.
    not all locations have them nearby.
    The stall speed of the new An-2 means that if there is a strong head wind they can actually fly backwards.
    in most landings, the wind may not be there &/ in the right direction for that.
    They don't have a shortage of helos for that, what they need more of are fire fighting aircraft like Be-200 and A-42s.
    having more helos would still be better.
    Aircraft Carrier Island: Baltic Fleet tested mobile airfields The Navy now can quickly arrange a military aircraft landing on any unequipped site

    As I been saying, they can set up smaller airfields in Siberia/FN/FE for tandem/tilt-rotors & for a lot le$$ & quicker than building regular airstrips for fixed wings.
    You should buy the best for the job at hand... except when the provider has a history of unreliability... that would be France and Britain and the US, but not Russia ironically.
    the Indians r not as stupid as u imagine: they know that they r indispensable to the US due to China & Russia factors, so there's no risk of losing any support for imported aircraft.
    Based on their retarded logic they should not buy any...
    they certainly won't buy more Mi-26s; but to cultivate relations with Russia, imports of other helos, etc. will continue, even if in smaller #s. ..the Indian prime minister declined to sign the long-negotiated deal on purchasing 200 Russian Ka-226T air force utility helicopters (RIA Novosti, September 4). Russia’s offer to build India six diesel-electric submarines on the basis of an inter-governmental agreement instead of partaking in the already-announced Indian tender was also left unanswered (Nezavisimaya Gazeta, September 5). Multiple assurances of the traditional bilateral friendship can barely hide concerns in Moscow about Indian preferences for cultivating military-technological ties with the United States (Russiancouncil.ru, August 20).
    https://jamestown.org/program/putin-tries-to-find-asia-beyond-china/
    In the transfer of troops to the border with the PRC, the main military transport aircraft of the Indian Air Force are involved. For the transfer of artillery, India is also expected to use the Chinook transport helicopters recently received from the United States.: https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2719077.html
    Replacing the Mi-6 is more likely the new Chinese and Russian joint venture helo in the 10-15 ton payload range...
    Pl. read my prev. post: don't count on Russia importing it in large #s, if at all- it's mostly for the Chinese & their friends in the developing nations. The Mi-6 is too good of a helo to be replaced by anything other than a Russian made 1, for work in harsh Russian conditions.
    History of yak helos in the USSR: https://www.arms-expo.ru/articles/armed-forces/vertikalno-vzletayushchaya-ekzotika-vertoley-razrabatyvaemye-okb-yakovleva/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Nov 16, 2019 6:19 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : add a quote, text, links)
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:37 pm

    V-22 update: https://www.janes.com/article/93120/bell-boeing-delivers-first-common-configuration-v-22
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:06 am

    Not the correct thread for that... this is the russian air forces section...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:20 am

    this thread should be renamed to "VKS", since there's no AF in the RF anymore. pl. move my post to an appropriate thread. thx!
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:52 pm

    https://www.janes.com/article/93919/afghanistan-to-field-chinook-heavy-lift-helos
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:58 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:https://www.janes.com/article/93919/afghanistan-to-field-chinook-heavy-lift-helos

    What does this have to do with Russian Airforce?

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:16 pm

    This thread isn't called "Russian Tandem.." & IMO should be moved to general aviation related topics.
    Besides, it's related since the Russian made Mi-17s r not enough.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:12 am

    this thread should be renamed to "VKS", since there's no AF in the RF anymore. pl. move my post to an appropriate thread. thx!

    The section is for the groups of forces collectively known as the Russian Air Force... it includes aerospace defence forces as well as transport, long range, and frontal aviation.

    This thread isn't called "Russian Tandem.." & IMO should be moved to general aviation related topics.
    Besides, it's related since the Russian made Mi-17s r not enough.

    This thread was created by Cyberspec and is about Russian developments in tandem and tiltrotor aircraft, there is no need to move it anywhere... you just need to be sure what you post is relevant, and the US bullying Afghanistan into buying their crap does not qualify as relevant to the Russian military.

    Besides, it's related since the Russian made Mi-17s r not enough.

    Yeah, the US still sells Blackhawk helos to afghanistan even though they are totally unsuitable, so I would not read anything at all into any Afghan purchase of US equipment of any kind.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:18 pm

    If they get them, after the US cronies r ousted, some may end up in Russia for training &/ evaluation &/ in private hands- if approved for civilian use. The USSR used many captured German transport planes for years. Following the defeat of the Wehrmacht, some 80 Junkers Ju 52/3ms were captured from the Germans, and were placed into the service of the Civil Air Fleet, and after the war were placed into regular service across the Soviet Union.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot#Formative_years

    In the USSR, captured Ju 52s were allocated to the Civil Air Fleet, being found particularly suitable for transporting sulphur from the Karakum Desert.[27] Various Soviet agencies used the Ju 52 through to 1950.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_52#Postwar_use
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:48 am

    Yeah, you can't compare a capable german transport design with US junk dead end designs.

    Why would Russia bother bringing any aircraft back from Afghanistan or Iraq... they certainly would not sell it to civilians... even if they did those civilians would lay themselves open to US sanctions for operating "stolen" US military equipment...

    Tandem rotor and tilt rotor designs would need serious support to keep operating and I doubt the US companies that produce the parts would be happy to sell to Russian citizens for aircraft they did not sell.

    It is common though... every wonder machine is sold as the next new thing but then it turns out there are flaws which make it interesting but only useful in very specific conditions...

    VSTOL means you can operate from smaller ships, but the compromises in performance mean once in the air you are fighting at a disadvantage...

    Ekranoplans also looked amazing... but their requirement to operate at low altitude limits the performance of the engines which generally perform better at higher altitudes.

    Tilt rotors seem to have advantages over helicopters and fixed wing aircraft except they don't actually seem to have better payloads or ranges than helicopters, only higher speed... and against aircraft it is only shorter operating air strips... but bigger carriers are more capable too so it really isn't an advantage when it means a smaller weaker less capable carrier.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:10 am

    Tilt rotors ..don't actually seem to have better payloads or ranges than helicopters, only higher speed...
    They could take less fuel & get topped off in the air. Besides, they won't lose much time by getting to fuel stops quicker should they need to go on long range missions. Being capable of self-deploying is a huge bonus- no need for ships or cargo planes as is the case with helos. Future larger models &/ quadrotors will be as capable as current big helos in max. payload & range.
    and against [u mean fixed wing?] aircraft it is only shorter operating air strips...
    they can use just helipads if need be, if no rolling TOs r needed.

    France confirms interest in Chinook acquisition
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:51 am

    Helicopters are useful for very specific roles and uses... a coaxial rotor helo is every bit as capable as a tandem design but is more compact... missions where more speed or range or payload is needed Russia already has a helicopter for the job so new tiltrotors are not needed... most of the time a fixed wing design is just better.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:38 am


    Fear of frost: a serious defect found in American convertiplanes

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 6 Boyatsya-moroza-u-amerikanskih-konvertoplanov-naiden-sereznyi-defekt-8z5jh829-1581590281.t

    A recent US Marine Corps exercise in Japan revealed a serious flaw in the Osprey MV-22 tandem planes - these machines cannot operate at low temperatures. For the first time involved in the winter maneuvers Osprey arrived at them very late and performed a purely decorative function.

    The joint exercises of the armed forces of the USA and Japan Northern Viper were held for the second time - and for the first time in winter. At the request of the Americans, the maneuvers were transferred deep into Hokkaido to Chitose airbase. The originally planned Misawa Air Base is located on the Pacific coast, fogs are frequent there in the winter - they, according to representatives of the US Army, could interfere with training.


    According to the plan, the Osprey couple was supposed to fly to Chitose on January 27, even the city hall of the same city reported this. On the appointed day, officials notified the population that the convertiplanes hadn’t arrived, and then for several days reported that the arrival of outlandish aircraft was delayed, writes Shigeru Handa, a military columnist for Shūkan Gendai. The translation of the article was published by InoSMI.


    On February 4th, the convertiplanes finally arrived. But here, it was not without adventure. Machine number "ET01" made an intermediate landing at the ILC base in Ivakuni, and then returned to the home airfield. Instead, Osprey flew with the number "ET03". To the surprise of the Japanese who participated in the training and watched it, the aircraft of the US Army took off very briefly - for 10-15 minutes, without performing any combat missions. According to the scenario of the exercises, the convertiplanes were supposed to provide the main phase of the exercises: landing, but in reality their flights were purely decorative. In addition, US aircraft produced a terrible rumble, and requests from municipalities located around Chitose to ban military flights over urban neighborhoods did not take effect.


    The reason for such a modest participation of Osprey in the exercises was found in the manual of the tiltrotor. In the section “Pilot actions when the Low Temperature indicator is triggered, it is said that this signal reports a“ threatening loss of lift ”and requires the pilot to land immediately. The indicator lights up at temperatures below -15 degrees Celsius. On the scheduled day for landing, the thermometers Chitose fell to -15 ° C, the next day it was even colder, -18 degrees. In the sky, of course, it was even colder.

    https://vpk.name/news/374971_boyatsya_moroza_u_amerikanskih_konvertoplanov_naiden_sereznyi_defekt.html

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:38 am

    [sarcasm]They sound ideal for use in Siberia.... it never gets that cold there... [/sarcasm]

    Of course this would be an obvious problem for operating at altitude anywhere.... AFAIK the outside temperature at 10km altitude is about minus 62 degrees C in most places around the world... presumably colder near the poles... how high can these aircraft safely operate with such a weakness?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:49 pm

    They forgot to test them in Colorado, Canada &/ Alaska.
    https://www.janes.com/article/95609/forty-years-on-from-the-v-22-s-conception-bell-applies-engineering-lessons-learned-to-the-v-280

    The Russian tiltrotors will be designed for cold weather ops from the start, just like all those Ka-25/27/31s were. Some variants operate from their icebreakers.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:14 am

    They forgot to test them in Colorado, Canada &/ Alaska.

    They didn't forget anything... clearly they selectively chose to not test them in cold weather because they knew they would fail and they wanted them in service.

    Another case of pushing something no matter what.

    It is only a good idea if it actually works.

    I suspect most Russian tiltrotor designs will remain unmanned drones.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:13 pm

    They didn't forget anything... clearly they selectively choose to not test them in cold weather because they knew they would fail and they wanted them in service.
    I was being sarcastic. It wasn't originally supposed to operate in High Northern latitudes over water- but it performs well over high & dry mountains of Afghanistan & California, incl. in winter:
    https://sldinfo.com/2010/02/the-osprey-in-afghanistan-a-situation-report-2/

    https://news.usni.org/2016/09/29/chosin_marine_corps_korea

    Last year, they trained in Norway:
    https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2019/11/26/northcom-commander-says-us-needs-arctic-early-warning-system/
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:31 am


    Last year, they trained in Norway:

    Yeah, the article above says they trained in Japan too but their performance was hampered by the cold weather to the point they were useless...

    The problem with HATO reports of HATO exercises is their lack of honesty when things go wrong...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:20 pm

    Conditions in Norway r not the same as on Hokkaido, where there's more moisture in the cold air.  After modifications/redesign, these problems r not unsurmountable for that class of aircraft, regardless of who makes & fields them.
    https://www.dvidshub.net/image/6033105/us-marines-japan-ground-self-defense-force-hold-static-display-during-exercise-forest-light-western-army

    The CH-46/47s been operating in/off Japan, Canada & Alaska for decades:
    https://www.alamy.com/us-marines-extract-from-sekiyama-japan-via-japanese-ch-46-helicopter-during-exercise-forest-light-march-15-2017-forest-light-is-one-of-various-bi-lateral-training-opportunities-conducted-by-jgsdf-and-deployed-us-marine-forces-to-demonstrate-the-enduring-commitment-by-both-countries-to-peace-stability-and-prosperity-across-the-region-marines-are-with-company-g-2nd-battalion-3rd-marine-regiment-3rd-marine-division-iii-marine-expeditionary-force-image229258559.html

    https://www.31stmeu.marines.mil/News/News-Article-View/Article/532897/marines-deliver-relief-supplies-to-japanese-affected-by-earthquake-and-tsunami/

    https://twitter.com/iiimef/status/844166876385046528

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    http://silverhawkauthor.com/canadian-warplanes-7-helicopters-boeing-vertol-ch113-labrador-and-ch113a-voyageur_750.html

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    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 6 SCAN0321-768x470

    Cancelled Mi-30: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 6 Scale_1200
    https://x-true.info/83206-mi-30-edinstvennyj-sovetskij-konvertoplan.html

    http://blog.airforce.ru/blogs/3458-marat/246-seriya-konvertoplany-okb-milya-m-l-mi-30s-1-72-samodelka/


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:13 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add links)
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon May 11, 2020 7:22 pm

    https://www.janes.com/article/96049/first-two-mv-22b-osprey-tiltrotor-aircraft-for-jgsdf-arrive-in-japan

    As the US, they now operate CH-47s & V-22s. Another indication that they r complementary.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 12, 2020 4:48 am

    Not really an indication of anything... orders for the F-35 might suggest it is a good fighter... but we know better... the fact that it is in use does not prove it is effective or good or useful... such things are not important to those who decide what the US military gets.

    We might see Minoga shortly anyway and that is going to be a 500km/h helicopter replacement for the Helix family... which would render tandem rotors and tilt rotors redundant.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue May 12, 2020 5:22 am

    We might see Minoga shortly anyway and that is going to be a 500km/h helicopter replacement for the Helix family... which would render tandem rotors and tilt rotors redundant.
    Only if it's going to be better than both. Trials & field tests will tell!

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