Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5595
    Points : 5589
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:09 pm

    the V-22B is 72 million dollars an aircraft... that is ridiculous... you could buy two Su-30s for that price...
    they'll save $ on new fixed wing C-2 replacements that must use CATOBAR & in day light only, as well as other helos the Marines & AF SFs otherwise need to use. Some r now/will be exported to Japan, Israel & Indonesia; others may order them later. And they don't need C-5s to bring them overseas.
    The Russian models would cost less & won't need CATOBAR; if VDV get them, others will want them too, just like with the USAF SFs, Marines & Navy. Tanker, attack, cargo, Arctic & firefighting versions would be useful too. And they won't need An-124s/IL-106/Slons or big ships to bring them overseas.
    They can take Mi-6/12 &/ An-12 from a museum/storage & make it a quadrotor for trials; if all goes well, it could go to serial production.  
    High speed trains run between a few big cities in European RF, not remote areas of the North & East of the Urals all the way to the Pacific coast. 
    The same for the mostly mountainous &/ desert Caucasus & C. Asia, not to mention in & around Syria, Iran & Africa where the Russian military will be more active in the next decade, if not longer.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:09 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add text, links)
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28669
    Points : 29199
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  GarryB Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:28 am

    Russia is investing in high speed helicopters, it makes no sense to then start developing tilt rotor aircraft too... it is redundant.
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5595
    Points : 5589
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:36 pm

    Investing in high speed helos doesn't necessarily exclude future investing in tilt-rotors. The Ka-102 will be exponentially better than the CH-47, & their future convertiplanes will be as good or exponentially better than the V-22B.
    Hybrid wars & CVN/TAKR/UDK hybrids lead to investing in hybrid aircraft.
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28669
    Points : 29199
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:45 am

    The replacement for the Helix will be a Helix sized helicopter with a pusher propeller... there is no chance it will be a tilt or tandem rotor aircraft.

    Ka-102 is like those new Ukrainian transports... without funding they remain drawings and promises... in the case of the Ka-102 there is no value in such an aircraft for Russia... an aircraft that size is better off being a fixed wing aircraft...

    The US seems happy with no equivalent to the Mi-26, why do you think Russia needs a Chinook?
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5595
    Points : 5589
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:50 am

    in the case of the Ka-102 there is no value in such an aircraft for Russia... an aircraft that size is better off being a fixed wing aircraft...
     If size was the only issue, there would be no need for the Mi-6/26.
    The US seems happy with no equivalent to the Mi-26, why do you think Russia needs a Chinook?
    They don't want to spend extra $ on completely new heavier helos, & the CH-53D/47F can still be upgraded. More of them can be built to make up for less payload. Besides, they have more airfields for planes than Russia. It'll be a high speed tandem helo with comparable max speed of the V-22B. It's less risky & costly than a tilt-rotor & has a bigger cabin than coaxials.
    It's possible to build large cargo tilt-rotors as well:
    https://www.flightglobal.com/heavy-duty-us-army-backs-tiltrotor-as-future-battlefield-airlifter/78231.article?adredir=1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwq69KsaRn8&list=PLjWkfFWGVi-Kt_IFJ-bOs22vNZzDn_Thd


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 3344
    Points : 3346
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  LMFS Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:32 am

    GarryB wrote:The replacement for the Helix will be a Helix sized helicopter with a pusher propeller...

    According to Flateric that is the case... remember the picture f the mock-up we saw some time ago? He says there are propellers on a rack next to it

    I had hopes for that but had not seen the evidence or rather didn't have the background to interpret it correctly...
    GarryB
    GarryB

    Posts : 28669
    Points : 29199
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:09 am

    If size was the only issue, there would be no need for the Mi-6/26.

    The fact that you talk about the Mi-6 and the Mi-26 like they are the same aircraft is amusing because the Mi-26 has twice the weight capacity of the Mi-6...

    They had a use for Mi-6 aircraft but it has been replaced by the Mi-26... which they are going to be fitting with brand new engines... there is no point in now funding the Ka-102 which will have less payload capacity to replace something that is already working.

    They are working with China on a 10-12 ton capacity helicopter... if anything useful comes out of that it would make more sense to use that... but honestly I really don't see an urgent need for a new type.

    If they need to move 10 tons they could rig up the Mi-26 to carry the 10 tons but also to carry an extra 10 ton fuel bladder to extend flight range... but they don't even seem to want to bother doing that.

    They don't want to spend extra $ on completely new heavier helos, & the CH-53D /47 F can still be upgraded

    They print their own money... if they don't want to spend money on heavier helos and would rather upgrade ones they already have for any job then why on earth would Russia be pissing away money it has to earn and can't just print willy nilly on tilt rotors and shit when they have decided to invest in high speed helicopters?

    More of them can be built to make up for less payload.

    Big helicopters are expensive to buy and expensive to operate... you don't just buy a few extra on a whim.

    Besides, they have more airfields for planes than Russia.

    Siberia is flat open territory... Russia could have more airfields than planes... most human settlements would massively benefit from having an airfield.

    75 million dollar tiltrotors would never become commercially viable even if maintenance was free...

    It would be cheaper and easier to have rail hubs around the place and airfields along the rail lines to fly small planes out to settlements with short airstrips. Small settlements wont need Il-96 levels of cargo capacity... and even if they do.... say a coal mine...  a rail link makes much more sense.

    It'll be a high speed tandem helo with comparable max speed of the V-22B .

    Of all the new designs they are suggesting it is the one I like least...

    It's less risky & costly than a tilt-rotor & has a bigger cabin than coaxials.

    The Mi-6 and Mi-26 have the biggest cabins and they are not tandems. A coaxial helicopter can have any sized cabin, but even a tandem design will need tandem coaxials if you want it to be fast because of retreating blade stall issues.

    It's possible to build large cargo tilt-rotors as well:

    If and possible are useless words.... it would be possible to make it the most expensive aircraft project ever, but that does not make it a good idea.

    According to Flateric that is the case... remember the picture f the mock-up we saw some time ago? He says there are propellers on a rack next to it

    I had hopes for that but had not seen the evidence or rather didn't have the background to interpret it correctly...

    They said the new design has to fit into existing hangars and use existing equipment for storage and operation of the current models... which means that after everything is folded up it has to fit into the same size as the current helos.

    It will likely have new blades, a more aerodynamic shape, more powerful engines, and a pusher propeller, but other than that we will have to wait and see.

    It can't be a tandem because a tandem wont fit and it can't be a tilt rotor because it has its blades side by side and it wont fit either...
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5595
    Points : 5589
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  Tsavo Lion Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:04 am

    GarryB wrote:The fact that you talk about the Mi-6 and the Mi-26 like they are the same aircraft is amusing because the Mi-26 has twice the weight capacity of the Mi-6...- the Mi-6 was the largest (& fastest) helo before Mi-26 came out.
    there is no point in now funding the Ka-102 which will have less payload capacity to replace something that is already working. -the Mi-6 has no modern counterpart in Russian service, & they need it-we discussed it before. The Ka-102 is its replacement.
    They are working with China on a 10-12 ton capacity helicopter... if anything useful comes out of that it would make more sense to use that...-as mentioned a while ago, they won't trust a Chinese helo to replace the Mi-6. 
    If they need to move 10 tons they could rig up the Mi-26 to carry the 10 tons but also to carry an extra 10 ton fuel bladder to extend flight range... but they don't even seem to want to bother doing that.-for a good reason: it has 800km range, enough for any mission with 10Ts payload; an Mi-6 size helo is cheaper to operate; just like it's better to use IL-76s than An-22/124s to haul 40-60Ts even if refueling stops r needed.
    They print their own money... if they don't want to spend money on heavier helos and would rather upgrade ones they already have for any job then why on earth would Russia be pissing away money it has to earn and can't just print willy nilly on tilt rotors and shit when they have decided to invest in high speed helicopters?-they developed the V-22 as it offered more flexibility & capability unheard off before; u said many times it's not worth restarting the An-22 as there r new IL-106/Slon designs- high speed helos & tilt-rotors would complement each other. Besides, there must be competing designs to choose from.
    Big helicopters are expensive to buy and expensive to operate... you don't just buy a few extra on a whim.-as u said: "They print their own money.", & also they needed something to replace the CH-53/47 earlier models fast.
    Siberia is flat open territory...-true, but only in the W. part; E. of the Yenissei river it's mostly hilly & mountainous, with permafrost, forests, glaciers, swamps, & lakes. 
    75 million dollar tiltrotors would never become commercially viable even if maintenance was free...-they won't be developed & sold for as much in Russia. Even existing helo/plane fuselages now in production can be modified for straight wings, H-tails & movable engine nacelles. IL-112 airframes would make nice tilt/quad-rotors.
    Of all the new designs they are suggesting it is the one I like least...-perhaps that's why u r so biased!
    A coaxial helicopter can have any sized cabin, but even a tandem design will need tandem coaxials if you want it to be fast because of retreating blade stall issues.- they'll have puller props for faster horizontal flight. I'm sure they considered a large coaxial but rejected it, not w/o a reason.
    it would be possible to make it the most expensive aircraft project ever, but that does not make it a good idea.- if the cost-benefit analysis is to it's favor, we may see it fly some day. Time (is $) will tell!


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:06 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add links)
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

    Posts : 5595
    Points : 5589
    Join date : 2016-08-15
    Location : AZ, USA

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:54 am

    An-148 update: https://lenta.ru/news/2020/12/11/an148/
    It's fuselage could be adopted for a tiltrotor as well.

    https://youtu.be/gybIgvfqggo?t=34


    ..the CV-22 Osprey tiltrotor.. maximum  speed  in airplane mode is 565 km/h, and its combat radius is 690 km. Amphibious loading radius - 722 km.

    NATO SF are preparing for a secret breakthrough in Russia from bases in the Baltics.

    With IRPs, their radius is at least 2x that.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text, link)

    Sponsored content

    Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development - Page 8 Empty Re: Tandem & Tilt-Rotor Aircraft development

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:38 pm