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    Revisionism about WWII and USSR

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:32 am

    Makes me doubt the history I have been taught all my life about the west from western sources...

    Churchill stated that history would look favourably on him and his actions because he intended to write it...

    What a self centred dirt bag he was.
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Thu Sep 26, 2019 6:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:Makes me doubt the history I have been taught all my life about the west from western sources...

    Churchill stated that history would look favourably on him and his actions because he intended to write it...

    What a self centred dirt bag he was.

    No reason to doubt. Europe become the major technological, expansive power in the world even when other cultures were much more advanced primarily because of

    (1) Ethical Monotheism, which set up basis for intra-human interaction, common value basis, set of rules and created trust within society, and led into abolition of slavery. It also laid basis on philosophy and judicial system and rule of law instead of despot’s whim

    (2) Capitalism, which was result of abolition and prohibition of slavery, ethical system creating trust, and scientific Weltanschaung

    (3) Roman jurisprudence, which set the basis for judicial system, constitution of the society and rule of law instead of despot’s whim.

    Incidentally, these are the three most crucial leverage points on Donella Meadows’s Twelve Leverage Points’ theorem

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_leverage_points

    So why did other civilizations failed ?

    Islamic civilization - Islamic countries never got rid of slavery. They had all the ingredients on the rise, but they did not realize how destructive thing slavery is.

    China - The Chinese never separated philosophy from mysticism. They were excellent engineers, but they failed to make the connection between philosophy and mathematics, and that of mathematics, science and engineering. (Though this is fast changing now)

    India - The Indian statehood was one of horrible division - that of castes. It basically paralyzed any evolution. As there was no way to improve your part in this world, why bother to try anything? Such lethargy led into a horrible divided society of filthy rich and dirt poor
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Thu Sep 26, 2019 9:27 pm

    The western civilization is a sham that depends on colonialism and infinite resource horizons for its existence. The NATO 1st world
    countries and their European derived civilization are to this day leeching 3rd world countries via debt and export of value added
    production. Capitalism is predicated on never ending growth which is inconsistent with a finite planet. That is why capitalist
    ideologues are so rabid about not being regulated in their access to markets and resources. To them, the idea that the planet
    is not an infinite toilet for pollution (e.g. all the carcinogens key to modern industry) and at the same time an infinite source
    of oil, gas and minerals is heresy.

    It is not justified to talk about this particular species of civilization as somehow having transcended all the previous ones and
    never destined to collapse. All the signs of its collapse are there. This includes the degeneration of the populace into SJW
    drones obsessed with sodomite depravity couched as tolerant and progressive. This degeneracy is actively supported by the
    corporate elites. The miracle civilization is turning into an idiocracy. Just when exogenous threats are arranging to a perfect
    storm.

    The so-called west sees the world through the lens of economic rape and actual racism (regardless of all the PC yap). It has been
    targeting Russia for centuries because it resists submission. Today, Russia retains more of the worthwhile aspects of European
    civilization than does the EU. Where crypto-Trotskysit dreamers are imposing a totalitarian regime. Look at Sweden and see the pattern.

    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor on Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:15 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    GarryB wrote:Makes me doubt the history I have been taught all my life about the west from western sources...

    Churchill stated that history would look favourably on him and his actions because he intended to write it...

    What a self centred dirt bag he was.

    No reason to doubt. Europe become the major technological, expansive power in the world even when other cultures were much more advanced primarily because of

    (1) Ethical Monotheism, which set up basis for intra-human interaction, common value basis, set of rules and created trust within society, and led into abolition of slavery. It also laid basis on philosophy and judicial system and rule of law instead of despot’s whim
       
    (2) Capitalism, which was result of abolition and prohibition of slavery, ethical system creating trust, and scientific Weltanschaung
       
    (3) Roman jurisprudence, which set the basis for judicial system, constitution of the society and rule of law instead of despot’s whim.

    Incidentally, these are the three most crucial leverage points on Donella Meadows’s Twelve Leverage Points’ theorem

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_leverage_points

    So why did other civilizations failed ?

    Islamic civilization -  Islamic countries never got rid of slavery. They had all the ingredients on the rise, but they did not realize how destructive thing slavery is.

    China -  The Chinese never separated philosophy from mysticism. They were excellent engineers, but they failed to make the connection between philosophy and mathematics, and that of mathematics, science and engineering. (Though this is fast changing now)

    India -  The Indian statehood was one of horrible division - that of castes. It basically paralyzed any evolution. As there was no way to improve your part in this world, why bother to try anything? Such lethargy led into a horrible divided society of filthy rich and dirt poor


    You can not say democracy experience absence of despotic whim as is not correct because in every society there is someone who makes decisions and some who does not and that despotic whim is the decision bearer as for instance in the western democracies where economy has superior position to society where society is regulated by economy rules based system (homoeconomicus) principles of economy established and changed as per their own will makes the despotic whim where some suffer and some thrive.

    You can as per your belief negatively refer to mysticism still you are judging something you know nothing about because how could you explain difference between belief in some mystic form from any other belief like for instance belief that capitalism can sustain itself forever? Nor can the confirmation of one domain say anything about any other as for instance domain of science in part that is verifiable say anything about the mysticism (or negate it)where from for instance  China people can draw inspiration, will-power and endure to make great things including science as by mysticism defines everything that is unknown and not just mumbo jumbo Smile

    But most important of the reason which I value ineffective such reasoning that are mentioned in your post is because they can be referred only to some fixed position in time and than in reference with the others of that new time from which the accuser is than viewed. The essence of the problem is that while it correctly underlies the reasons of the fixed moment in time says nothing about the reasons about why it happened and by my opinion there lies the point in case. For instance while viewing from a fixed in time position reasons why one state failed and from another fixed position why some other state failed soon you will have all the reasons you can think of on your plate still those same reasons are root cause why those states also succeeded in some point of time as all of the mentioned ones where the great ones and than when you gather all reasons in the same basked you have nothing to work with. So I would rather dismiss them all as the principle you work with is wrong as the west now proclaims its end still having evaded all the "traps" of the past while taunting all the "right" values still we see it rise and demise at the time others are still plagued by "traps" of the past in one form or the other mentioned in the article. There is still no ultimate truth. There is no one size fits all system invented by people so only beliefs exist that it is this or that. Regressive religious belief systems stick to only few of thruts that have prove its value throughout history but dogmatic essence of them forbids further inquiry so they are dismissed.
    I think that at some point in time every belief system that where and went on to succeed thought of it as the only one since every other up to that point failed. Aggressive through justice and existentially frightened part of such system will justify its expansion for the obvious reasons while disregarding as unimportant obvious moral dilemma whether to build upon belief system survival even when it is required on the expense of others and if yes how will you justify to the people difference between existentialism of the system and existentialism of the people (in most cases in a way that it is one and the same thing or by means of dependence because they have the best system) and if no risk falling into unknown of which possibility of oblivion gives one initiative by emotion of fear. Now that was that about dismissal part. Now on the affirmative part. I think that as some form of life we have throughout our history experienced only fundamentally different few systems of governance and because we can communicate and express only by means of words which in a sense makes a bottle neck I would rather advise taking numerous continuous small steps forward with lots of testings because in reality there can be infinite number of ways and optimising value of life around one (materiarialism) factor in importance superior to all others or few of them can infuriate Gods and enlight the phrase evil appears as good in the minds of those whom Gods seek to destroy meaning ultimate destruction or some equivalent like revolution that sets the belief system to square one while during the meantime people experience absence of security organized society provides.

    That is why I believe no belief system can give themselves by themselves a right to judge any other belief system much less make aggressive processes toward it as it always leads to war as is fueled by irrational. Prove your belief system by battering time against it and the people will start rising its worth not by exploiting shiny moment in time by proclaiming "lead by example".
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:44 am

    Lets see some facts of 1938 Munich Agreement

    The Munich Agreement was an agreement concluded at Munich on 30 September 1938, by Nazi Germany, the United Kingdom, the French Third Republic, and the Kingdom of Italy. It provided "cession to Germany of the Sudeten German territory" of Czechoslovakia.Most of Europe celebrated the agreement, because it prevented the war Very Happy threatened by Adolf Hitler by allowing Nazi Germany's annexation of the Sudetenland, a region of western Czechoslovakia inhabited by more than 3 million people, mainly German speakers. Hitler announced it was his last territorial claim in Europe, and the choice seemed to be between war and appeasement.

    What Czech government says about western powers agreement on their loss of territory today?

    An emergency meeting of the main European powers – not including Czechoslovakia or the Soviet Union, an ally to both France and Czechoslovakia – took place in Munich, Germany, on 29–30 September 1938. An agreement was quickly reached on Hitler's terms. It was signed by the top leaders of Germany, France, Britain, and Italy. Militarily, the Sudetenland was of strategic importance to Czechoslovakia as most of its border defenses were situated there to protect against a German attack. The agreement between the four powers was signed on the backdrop of a low-intensity undeclared German-Czechoslovak war that had started on 17 September 1938. Meanwhile Poland moved its army units towards its common border with Czechoslovakia after 23 September 1938. Czechoslovakia yielded to French and British diplomatic pressure and agreed on 30 September to give up territory to Germany on Munich terms. Fearing the possible loss of Zaolzie to Germany, Poland issued an ultimatum for the return of Zaolzie, which Czechoslovakia accepted on 1 October.

    what Polish governments says about this?? wasnt aggression their move against Czechoslovakia?

    The Munich Agreement was soon followed by the First Vienna Award on 2 November 1938, separating largely Hungarian inhabited territories in southern Slovakia and southern Subcarpathian Rus' from Czechoslovakia, while Poland also annexed territories from Czechoslovakia in the North. In March 1939, the First Slovak Republic was proclaimed, and shortly by the creation of the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia Germany took full control of the remaining Czech parts. As a result, Czechoslovakia had disappeared.

    Czechoslovakia disappeared because of USSR??? Very Happy
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:22 am

    The Soviet High Command & leadership knew that the war with Germany was coming regardless. They planned to liberate Europe after the Nazis defeated every1 else.
    But they thought to wait for the right moment, around 1942-43, to do this, & that's why they were caught unprepared for defense on such a long front from the Baltic to the Black Sea.

    Well if you make that date 1944 then the British and Americans implemented that plan perfectly... and still made the Soviets out to be the bad guys in the end.


    Europe become the major technological, expansive power in the world even when other cultures were much more advanced primarily because of

    The europeans used superior weapons to steal and kill anyone or any thing that got in their way...

    Samuel P Huntington...

    The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion [..] but rather by its superiority in applying organised violence. Westerners often forget this fact; Non-Westerners never do.

    In fact I would correct that and say westerners are blinded by their own propaganda that they are a force for good in the world, while non westerners are reminded every day of the damage the west has done.

    (1) Ethical Monotheism, which set up basis for intra-human interaction, common value basis, set of rules and created trust within society, and led into abolition of slavery. It also laid basis on philosophy and judicial system and rule of law instead of despot’s whim

    Europe created industrialised global slavery before they abolished it.

    (2) Capitalism, which was result of abolition and prohibition of slavery, ethical system creating trust, and scientific Weltanschaung

    Hahahahaha... the west didn't invent barter or trade or commerce... that has been around for thousands of years... the west just copied it as usual.

    Islamic civilization - Islamic countries never got rid of slavery.

    The west never got rid of slavery... they just rebranded it... don't you think it is strange that US companies need to produce their products in countries where there are no labour laws and minimum wage is not even a concept... 5 year old kids working machines making Nike boots for 50 cents a day... boots they will pay over $300 for in the US...

    They had all the ingredients on the rise, but they did not realize how destructive thing slavery is.

    Bollocks... slavery is critical to make modern consumerist America work... and the funny thing is that what will destroy the world is the other 7.5 billion humans consuming resources and energy at the rate the US has been doing for the last 40 years...


    India - The Indian statehood was one of horrible division - that of castes. It basically paralyzed any evolution. As there was no way to improve your part in this world, why bother to try anything? Such lethargy led into a horrible divided society of filthy rich and dirt poor

    Hahahaha... yeah, there is no social division in england... all men are truly equal... year right... but in the US there is racial inequality... which everyone focusses on, but the economic inequality is largely ignored and painted over by the very wealthy because they control the media and the government.

    My western history books told me the Soviets invaded Poland and took half of Polish territory... it didn't mention that the territory it took it took back from the Poles who seized it in 1922 when the Russians were having their civil war.

    Amusing but the tell is always that the victim is the victim and does nothing wrong and the aggressor is the aggressor because they are fundamentally bad.

    Hitler was created by WWI... the Soviet Union was created by WWI... neither Russia nor the Soviets nor Germany started WWI.
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 27, 2019 2:45 pm

    The USSR was one of the all time biggest blowbacks. The Czar was deposed by the active interference of the USA, England, Germany and
    others including the equivalent of today's George Soros. This regime change operation was supposed to carve up Russia into smaller
    and more easily managed pieces through ethnic nationalism identity politics. So we had the concocted state of Ukraine and similar
    pie carving in Central Asia. But instead of falling apart the USSR became a superpower.

    WWII was engineered to destroy the "monster" the west created. The British were very active in Hitler's rise to power as were the
    Americans. America basically shipped over whole factories that Hitler used to build up his army in violation of various treaties.
    America continued to supply oil to the Reich basically throughout the war. Recall how Prescott Bush was a bankster to the Nazis.
    One can't dismiss such details as irrelevant. They are central to explaining the observed events.

    Too bad for the yanquis and their western partners, the USSR did not lose the war. So now we have revisionist sour grapes from the
    precious west, where the fig leaf Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that resulted in the USSR shipping some grain and non-military goods to
    Germany is invoked as the cause of WWII, while the brazen re-arming of Germany and supplying it with oil by the USA and other western
    countries is utterly ignored. Russia grain created WWII, but US military industrial assistance created peace? Big Brother would be
    proud of such newthink.

    In case some smarmy NATO apologist thinks that political "carve up" protocols were more important. Consider Munich in 1938. Chamberlain
    and other western bastions were busy appeasing and enabling Hitler's hunger for territorial expansion. The USSR was calling for a
    policy of containment. So only the USSR was interested in stopping Hitler. And it was Hitler that started WWII in 1939. There was
    no war started by the USSR in 1939. So the revisionist f*cks can't even get the chronology right. The MR pact was a successful
    delaying tactic that bough the USSR nearly two years before the Germany attack. During this time it managed to increase its war
    potential by 40%. But the revisionists would have you believe that Stalin was totally unaware of the impending attack by Hitler.
    Pure, transparent BS fantasy fiction from professional Russia haters.

    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:35 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    But most important of the reason which I value ineffective such reasoning that are mentioned in your post is because they can be referred only to some fixed position in time and than in reference with the others of that new time from which the accuser is than viewed.

    Viktor, Europe made progress even during the Dark Ages. Guess why - spread of Christianity. This led to centuries of technological innovation and foundation of Feudalism. They enabled the slow economic recovery.

    But eastern religions like Hindooism for example divided society into castes. And since the caste system was so stringent it never allowed social, economical or technological progress in those countries. Consequently even today more than a thousand years later they still remain backward, unlike Europe.

    Therefore, you may have noticed millions from those third world states like India, Africa migrate to Europe even today but the opposite never happens.


    GarryB wrote:Hahahaha... yeah, there is no social division in england... all men are truly equal... year right... but in the US there is racial inequality... which everyone focusses on, but the economic inequality is largely ignored and painted over by the very wealthy because they control the media and the government

    Yes there are social divisions in both UK and US. But those divisions are bare minimum. They do not divide society into castes like Hindooism did.

    Majority of people in US, UK are Whites. They have always ensured tremendous growth for their country. Slavery is a thing of the past. People of color are far better of in the US than they would have been in countries like India, Middle Eastern countries, African countries from where their ancestors came to the US and UK.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:44 pm

    Majority of people in US, UK are Whites. They have always ensured tremendous growth for their country.
    that's largely due to colonialism & imperialism.
    Canada, Australia & NZ r also White majority, but their economies r not impressive. Most of Canadians live along the US border & if not for the trade, abundant natural resources & rich Asian immigrants, they would be like Sweden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Canada#Overview

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Canada#Unemployment_rate

    Australia is heavily dependent on trade with Japan, China, South Korea, India and the US; New Zealand has one of the most globalised economies and depends greatly on international trade – mainly with Australia, the European Union, the United States, China, South Korea, Japan and Canada. Many Aussies/Kiwis emigrate/work to/in the USA/Australia & UK. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia#Overview

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Australia#Poverty

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_Zealand

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_Zealand#Unemployment

    Hitler admired the British colonial empire & tried to make peace with the UK & USA by defeating the USSR, but was stabbed in the back.
    Now Germany, which is also mostly White, has the strongest economy in the EU, but only after it benefited from the Marshall Plan & low defense spending.
    So race is not the main factor in economic growth.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:11 am

    Viktor, Europe made progress even during the Dark Ages. Guess why - spread of Christianity. This led to centuries of technological innovation and foundation of Feudalism. They enabled the slow economic recovery.

    Actually religion was at the core of the dark ages and technological stagnation... religion is the opposite of science... and much science was considered evil by many in the church. If you were to go to medieval europe with a cigarette lighter they could call it magic, which as everyone knows is the devils work and burn you to death.

    Religion fought democracy tooth and nail, because that would take away a lot of their power... something they really didn't want.

    The last two centuries technology has rapidly developed... the 2000 years before that... not really so much...

    But eastern religions like Hindooism for example divided society into castes. And since the caste system was so stringent it never allowed social, economical or technological progress in those countries.

    Have you ever seen the US TV series called "The Beverly Hillbillies"?

    In many ways it is dark satire regarding their caste system... based on money and exclusively for whites...

    If you haven't seen it, the first episode the title characters, who are poor working people from some US backwater state find oil on their land and become very very wealthy all of a sudden. When they move to Beverly Hills all the local rich white folk try to find out when their family came to the US... as they have it explained to them... the earlier they came the higher the stature of their family in the rich and famous society... Jedd hears this and naturally states that if that is the case then the Indians must be at the top of the heirarchy... which gets a shocked look and correction from those who wanting to place their family in their social group.

    It is supposed to be about dumb poor country folk trying to make it in the big modern world of the big city... they only get a second look because of course they are rich.

    The Irony is that from outside, the poor stupid country folk make more sense and are much more logical and civilised than the rich white folk making up society and looking down their noses at the country bumpkins.

    Consequently even today more than a thousand years later they still remain backward, unlike Europe.

    That is funny, because there are a lot of central and south american countries that are fully christian and also pretty poor and screwed up to this day, while athiest and communist China seems to be progressing well, and there are plenty of other countries like Singapore and Malaysia that seem to be doing will without religious conversions being required.

    The so called third world and second world have been held down deliberately by the first world, but the first world has lost its way and is in decline.

    Therefore, you may have noticed millions from those third world states like India, Africa migrate to Europe even today but the opposite never happens.

    Never happens... the white people in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, the US, and most of the rest of the world mainly came from Europe... much of the conflict in the world to this day is largely because of decisions made in Paris and London and Brussels and Washington... you are still breaking countries and keeping them poor through murdering candidates that talk about improving countries and helping local workers, and of course fixing elections and starting wars when that does not go as planned. You exploit human weakness and steal resources that keep resource rich countries poor and broken... which is exactly what you want because you can mine valuable materials even in the middle of a civil war because you generally fund both sides to stop them from stopping you raping their country. You even make them pay for the weapons they use, so it is profits all round.

    Yes there are social divisions in both UK and US. But those divisions are bare minimum. They do not divide society into castes like Hindooism did.

    The division of wealth is only getting wider with the large middle class in both countries dying out... most are moving to the poor category... pretty soon the middle class will be gone, and people will start wondering why they pay so many taxes when the rich people and rich companies can hire lawyers and not pay very much tax at all... or even no tax.

    And when the brown stuff hits the fan all those rich companies and rich people will run away leaving the poor people to foot the bill and they can barely survive at the moment...

    Majority of people in US, UK are Whites.

    Are they?

    They have always ensured tremendous growth for their country.

    By being white?

    Slavery is a thing of the past.

    Slavery is minimum wage when the CEO of the company makes millions a year, and the company gives him a car and pays for his "business lunches" and his travel and holidays, and all the extra benefits he and his family get.

    When you can make more money by using money, than by actually working, then you know things are broken... and things are broken.

    People of color are far better of in the US than they would have been in countries like India, Middle Eastern countries, African countries from where their ancestors came to the US and UK.

    Yeah, that is because along with stealing people from those countries they also stole their most valuable resources and used them like slave colonies and pretty much still do to this day... of course people from those countries want to live in the west... the west has all their stuff.

    So race is not the main factor in economic growth.

    Economic growth for Russia was pretty solid until the west actively went out of its way to damage them economically. Chinas growth to its current position is largely due to the west investing in factories and production in China to utilise local cheap manpower and lax labour laws, and a society where trouble makers can be made to disappear without problems... you might see a change over the next few years because the dumb censored in the west have recognised the danger... far too late of course to stop it, but are even asking Russia to help them corner China.

    Of course they also asked Russia to impose sanctions against North Korea... but as Russia said those are the same sanctions the US has on Russia and Iran, so why help the US and impose sanctions on NK for the US?

    They will raise the same middle finger to the US with regard to sanctions against China, and both China and Russia will benefit from cutting big US companies out of their product lineage...

    China will benefit from Russian technology and equipment and know how, and Russia will benefit from Chinese technology and equipment and know how.

    The racist europeans and their even more racist american masters can sulk and feel the isolation of their actions of 3-4 centuries of bludging and smothering all potential rivals.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:14 am

    Putin writes article about WWII

    The Russian leader revealed his plans to write an article about the developments before the war during his annual end-of-year news conference in December 2019

    MOSCOW, June 14. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin has written an article about World War II, presidential press secretary Dmitry Peskov said on Sunday.

    "Yes, the president has already written an article," he told TASS, adding that the president will decide when the article would be published later.

    "We are waiting for his [Putin’s] decision when it [the article] will be published," he told TASS when asked whether the article could be published before the Victory Parade on June 24.

    Peskov told TASS earlier that the president planned to write an article about the developments linked with World War II but its publication would depend on when key celebrations of the 75th anniversary of Victory over Nazism would be organized.

    The Russian leader revealed his plans to write an article about the developments before the war during his annual end-of-year news conference in December 2019. He said the article would be based on archive materials. The president has been mentioning these developments, including the so-called Munich Betrayal, or Munich Agreement, and the role of individual European states, Poland in particular, in many of his recent speeches. Putin has repeatedly stressed the inadmissibility to falsify the WWII history.

    The Victory Parade on Moscow’s Red Square that was to be held on May 9 but was postponed due to the coronavirus pandemic. On May 26, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced that the parade would be held on June 24, the day when the first Victory Parade took place in Moscow 75 years ago.


    https://tass.com/politics/1167499
    Aristide
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    Post  Aristide on Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:06 pm

    They wrote today in LeMonde, that Putin doesnt blame Germany for WW II but rather the allies of WWI who pushed Germany in desperation.

    I thought Russians hate Germany. Thats suprisingly for me...

    Anyways what makes me wonder is how Putin wants politics be done in Europe and the world. For Europe he says the Great powers, UK, Germany, France and Russia should sit together and settle things.

    I find it odd that he sees the small nations like Poland, Estonia and so on as mere distractions who cause nothing but conflict between the various powers
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:35 pm

    It's not in the Russian character to blame people for what their ancestors did. They don't hate modern Mongols, Tatars, Turks, Persians, Poles, French, British, Japanese, Hungarians, Italians, Romanians & Afghans for killing so many of their ancestors.
    Russia had more wars with Swedes, Poles, Lithuanians, & English than with Germans. He can't really blame them since K. Marx & F. Engels were Germans whose works were taken as a Gospel by the Bolsheviks which Hitler was supposed to depose- in that sense, Germany & USSR can both be blamed for the war.  
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels

    Putin is fluent in German & served in GDR a few years.
    Russia has nothing to gain & a lot to lose by not having good relations with Germany.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : editing)
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    Post  Aristide on Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:52 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:It's not in the Russian character to blame people for what their ancestors did. They don't hate modern Mongols, Tatars, Turks, Persians, Poles, French, British, Japanese, Hungarians, Italians, Romanians & Afghans for killing so many of their ancestors.
    Russia had more wars with Swedes, Poles, Lithuanians, & English than with Germans. He can't really blame them since K. Marx & F. Engels were Germans whose works were taken as a Gospel by the Bolsheviks which Hitler was supposed to depose- in that sense, Germany & USSR can both be blamed for the war.  
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Engels

    Putin is fluent in German & served in GDR a few years.
    Russia has nothing to gain & a lot to lose by not having good relations with Germany.

    Do you agree with his idea to ignore Poland, Estonia and so on and that European issues should be solved between Germany, Russia, France and UK?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:00 pm

    Yes, I do. Poland & the 3 Baltic states r pawns- instead of becoming/staying neutral like Austria & Sweden, they drew their lot with NATO & have no independent foreign policy, just like Georgia & Ukraine.
    After all the wars in Europe, they should be thankful that they r still on the map.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:04 pm


    Do you agree with his idea to ignore Poland, Estonia and so on and that European issues should be solved between Germany, Russia, France and UK?

    Are you jocking ? Poland and Baltic states are directly working for Washington interests. Poland should be removed from EU. They will bring us in a limited nuclear war with Russia.

    UK is no more in EU and not in the continental Europe. And they are just a US state when it comes to diplomacy.

    France and Germany are the strongest EU states but very often do not agree on almost everything. That's why other EU countries should invest themselves more and Fr/Ger shoukd listen more to them.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:41 am

    They wrote today in LeMonde, that Putin doesnt blame Germany for WW II but rather the allies of WWI who pushed Germany in desperation.

    The Russians hate the Germans who raped and murdered millions of people in their country over a period of half a decade, but that does not mean they don't recognise that it was the actions of Britain and France and the US after the end of WWI that created the conditions necessary to engineer a character like Hitler.

    Essentially Britain and France and the US blamed Germany for all the hardships and death and destruction of WWI when to be impartial and fair about it... they were no more to blame than any other country that fought in that war... their only crime was to find themselves on the losing side... and the irony is enormous because they did exactly the same thing after WWII and created the cold war... and after the end of the Soviet Union in 1990 they did it again, though initially ignoring Russia when they controlled Yeltsen, when Putin entered power and started building Russia up to become a great power again they have blamed Russia for everything ever since.

    Everything is Putins fault from Brexit to Trump being elected...

    Anyways what makes me wonder is how Putin wants politics be done in Europe and the world. For Europe he says the Great powers, UK, Germany, France and Russia should sit together and settle things.

    That is what he wants but it is not going to happen because at the very least the UK and probably France and Germany will ask for American permission and they will only get American permission if the US can attend and it will end up like a G8 meeting where 7 countries bitch and moan because their economies are not going well because of Russian interference or some such shit.

    The North Sea Route the Russians are developing is not for Russian trade... it is for trade between Asia and Europe. Russia would be happy to have good relations with Europe and have said as much multiple times... so does China... but the US doesn't want that because the overpriced American weapons they want you to buy don't make sense when Russia or China are not an enemy... and cheaper trade between Asia and Europe makes it easier for Europeans to buy stuff from Asia and for Asians to buy stuff from Europe... American stuff remains the same price to ship and so it becomes less competitive in both markets... the Americans hate that... they want to trade with Asia and Europe but they don't want you to trade with each other... especially in Euros...

    I find it odd that he sees the small nations like Poland, Estonia and so on as mere distractions who cause nothing but conflict between the various powers

    Isn't that what they are? They are like small dogs... they bark a lot but don't actually do very much... they used to be Russia's companion dogs and now they are HATOs companion dogs... Putin probably doesn't give them a second thought because like most real men their parasitic nature and loud yappy bark probably pissed him off more than anything...

    Gospel by the Bolsheviks which Hitler was supposed to depose- in that sense, Germany & USSR can both be blamed for the war.

    So it is the fault of the Soviets because hitler hated their choice of political system so it was partly their fault the war started?

    Piss off...

    The fault of WWII was Germany, but the reason Germany started WWII was because they were punished far too harshly after WWI by the western allies... who essentially took the anti german sentiment of the time to steal Germanies land and colonies around the world... American Samoa... I had a maths teacher from American Samoa... he had an excellent American name... Mr Schwalga... he was ethnically Samoan with a German name because Samoa was a German colony until the Americans used WWI as an excuse to steal it. Britain and France also stole former German colonies and out posts... that was what it was... a huge land and resource grab... no wonder the Germans were pissed off and voted in Hitler who promised to get them more land again... his only mistake was to head east into the Soviet Union.

    Do you agree with his idea to ignore Poland, Estonia and so on and that European issues should be solved between Germany, Russia, France and UK?

    What is the point of talking to Estonia or Poland... is their history suddenly going to change or just disappear and they will suddenly become reasonable?

    I doubt it.

    Yes, I do. Poland & the 3 Baltic states r pawns- instead of becoming/staying neutral like Austria & Sweden, they drew their lot with NATO & have no independent foreign policy, just like Georgia & Ukraine.
    After all the wars in Europe, they should be thankful that they r still on the map.

    You are right, but I am afraid the UK and France and Germany are also pawns to the US MIC which needs a big bad enemy which has possibly shifted to China but no doubt still includes Russia so I really doubt much progress could be made.

    With that dick Johnson in power in the UK I would expect a 0% chance of anything sensible there, and Merkel... how long will she even be there... Micron might see the way the wind is blowing and be useful to talk to but even then I doubt there will be much progress...

    Russia should just keep looking to the east... China and India and South Korea... I wouldn't expect much from Japan though...

    France and Germany are the strongest EU states but very often do not agree on almost everything. That's why other EU countries should invest themselves more and Fr/Ger shoukd listen more to them.

    I don't think the EU thinks it is an independent state... it is a vassal of the US... when they want to wear big trousers and make their own decisions and have their own opinions it might be worth talking to them but otherwise it is a waste of time...

    Maybe in 5 years or so...
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:08 pm

    So it is the fault of the Soviets because hitler hated their choice of political system so it was partly their fault the war started?
    Moscow was to Berlin what Carthage was to Rome: even w/o Bolshevism, the West would have found another excuse to use Germany against the USSR/Russia, as she wouldn't be colonized & not be dictated to. There were German colonists since Catherine II but Germany (it wasn't even unified then) had no control over them. I'm sure if the conditions were right & agriculture wasn't collectivized, more Germans would've been willing to emigrate there for their lebensraum & be allowed to come. Then, the Nazi ideology would be nipped in the bud. The other German colonies in Africa & Pacific weren't suitable for that even had Berlin remained in control there after WWI.
    Anglophile Hitler came to, & stayed in power, thanks to foreign help & his anti-Bolshevism platform; he allowed himself to be used, trusting misinfo. fed to him by the Brits & underestimating the USSR industrial potential. His hope of Japan entering the war in the Soviet Far East also didn't materialize, making only Germany fighting a 2 front war longer than any1 else.
    Vladimir Putin: The Real Lessons of the 75th Anniversary of V-Day  https://nationalinterest.org/feature/vladimir-putin-real-lessons-75th-anniversary-world-war-ii-162982

    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2987965.html

    https://www.1tv.ru/news/2020-06-19/388053-bolshaya_statya_vladimir_putina_o_vtoroy_mirovoy_voyne_opublikovana_v_rossii_i_ssha

    https://www.pravdareport.com/russia/144679-putin_article/
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:37 am

    Interesting, and obviously speculative, but how about this... how about Hitler was a bit more realistic and didn't spend most of his time on LSD and wasn't drugged up like Michael Jackson and could think clearly and instead of invading the Soviet Union and being all anti semetic, he could have just directed the real blame where it was deserved and could easily be proven... it was France and the UK and the US that stole their colonies around the world and literally took resources and money and German land directly from them after WWII... a war Germany was no more to blame for than any other country that fought... German crimes were mainly being a modern force with machine guns and artillery that slaughtered British and French troops in enormous numbers and had their own troops similarly killed because they hadn't taken the obvious step mentally to realise that machine guns and artillery against natives often killed a few thousand and then the enemy gave up, but when the other side has artillery and machine guns every bit as good as yours then there is a bloody stalemate that kills millions.

    What if Hitler just said it is colonial Britain and France who punished us for something we didn't do... Russia would understand that right now because economic sanctions have been imposed with out any due process or actual convincing evidence... just opinion... it is highly likely because that is what we would do in their shoes... imagine a court where a judge said that to someone accused of rape or murder...

    If Hitler blamed the west he could very easily have continued cooperation with the Soviet Union which stopped when he came to power in the early 1930s... before then they both lost land because of the west after WWI and were both treated as the bad guys internationally by the west and had a lot in common... what I find interesting however is that the influence of most Soviet early tanks was french and british and not German but obviously that is because that is something Hitler started so it was never part of the cooperation between Germany and the Soviet Union.

    Imagine the different it would make if they were allies... sharing information and technology... and production capacity... and available man power... without the racist anti semetic bullshit they could have been full allies... the Japanese invasion of the Pacific would have been totally unnecessary... wood and oil and other materials could have been shipped to them from Siberia. The T-34 tank could have been modified for a better crew fighting capability... gunner, loader and commander in the turret with better optics and radios... the KV-1 as a heavy tank could have used the long barrel 75mm gun of the Panther and been the long range tank killer with heavy armour... the Soviet Fighters would have benefited enormously from the powerful German aircraft engines, and of course the opportunity to produce things in western Russian without having to move everything past the Urals would have meant a potent production capacity supporting their needs...

    With German collaboration the war in Spain would have Germany and the Soviets on the same side so that would be over much quicker... the war in Finland would not have happened because Stalin would not be worried about the vulnerability of Leningrad and want to have more land around it to make it easier to defence from a naval landing...

    I doubt they would have bothered to invade the US directly but the UK would certainly be a nice target for both Germany and the Soviets to occupy after all the shit the Brits have been responsible in terms of interfering in German and Soviet/Russian affairs.

    Of course having said that if Germany hadn't helped Lenin and there was no Russian civil war things would have been rather different too... the baltic states and ukraine and belarus would likely not exist as separate entities because they wouldn't have been.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:34 am

    I don't think that even w/o ideological differences Hitler & Stalin could peacefully coexist. The descendants of Teutonic knights & Holy Roman Empire convinced of their superiority over the E. Slavs & the upstart "3rd Rome" Ivan IV created wouldn't make any concessions to the latter. That's why the Nazis tried to placate the British:
    https://ria.ru/20200622/1573275083.html

    Hitler didn't even allow the ROA under Gen. Vlasov to the front lines.
    The Brits & US failed in using Germany to destroy the USSR; the latter became stronger than ever before, but they did succeed in the Cold War. Now the West got weaker as a result of all the wars & regime changes it was involved in after 1945; its colonialism & slave trade boomeranged on it while nothing of this sort happened in Russia which was never a racist colonizer & slaver.
    It should be remembered that during the Cold War the West supported apartheid in S. Africa, but it too ended up on the scrapheap of history.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Aristide on Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:02 pm

    What you both dont take into account is that both Russia and Germany always and at evry time sucked in the art of diplomacy and charades.

    The UK and France are masters in this. France even more so than the UK.

    Germans an russians have one thing in common, they suck in diplomacy, they suck in understanding complex alliances and even more so i adjusting plans to new realities.

    Germans and Russians often tend to follow a certain plan, and show little ability to change their plan if needed. They are not pragmatic.

    We French can lose on battle field but sit at winners table and dictate concessions. We can avoid active fighting but get the price. We can change our plan by 180° if needed.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:58 pm

    The UK and France are masters in this. France even more so than the UK.

    Both lost their empires.

    Russians are very good at diplomacy. Since 10 years US/Fr/UK try to "isolate" them yet they have their word on every issue in the world.

    Germany was never good at diplomacy but they don't care since they have the economy. They were totally destroyed in ww2, cut in 2 pieces during cold war and today they are the best economy in Europe.

    French are good at diplomacy but at the end they beg other countries to reach their goals. They can't do a lot alone.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:08 pm

    Recently Macron non-diplomatically said that NATO is brain dead. Perhaps it's time to turn 180 deg. again & leave NATO.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:27 am

    I don't think that even w/o ideological differences Hitler & Stalin could peacefully coexist.

    All the Germans had to do was shoot Lenin as a Russian spy during WWI instead of trying and succeeding to send him home to destroy Russia.

    Imagine if the civil war was not between the monarchists and the commies.... imagine if it was just monarchists vs anti monarchists... socialist but not actually communist... really a bit like Russia right now with free elections... No matter who got in to power they would have their work cut out because Russia was a backward country and turning it around would not be quick or easy... but then Putin did it without the violence and prison camps that Stalin used...

    Hitler didn't even allow the ROA under Gen. Vlasov to the front lines.

    Well that is just basic common sense... you don't let a force of traitors to operate near a front line where they can be traitors again....

    The Brits & US failed in using Germany to destroy the USSR; the latter became stronger than ever before, but they did succeed in the Cold War.

    Did they really... they certainly seriously damaged both sides with very little damage to themselves.

    Succeeding in the Cold War is so close to nothing it is not worth mentioning... Effectively the Russians started to have elections and the parasite countries surrounding them were cut away... if the west actually believed the bullshit it spouts then Russia actually won the cold war because they were freed from communism and now enjoy the fruits of capitalism and democracy...

    It should be remembered that during the Cold War the West supported apartheid in S. Africa, but it too ended up on the scrapheap of history.

    Ironically South Africa is a metaphor for the west, but instead of race it is money... as the 1% get richer and richer and by necessity every one else gets poorer and poorer then things are going to happen in the west that have not happened in a while.

    Might be race that tips things off, but it will be something.

    What you both dont take into account is that both Russia and Germany always and at evry time sucked in the art of diplomacy and charades.

    "It is the economy stupid" I think is the cry... Bill Clinton can do obsene things in the Oval Office but the American people don't care... as long as the economy is going well and they have a job and can keep on top of the bills so to speak.

    The UK and France are masters in this. France even more so than the UK.

    Oh please... the last 30 years have shown they are pathetic.... just look at the Brexit bullshit... they set all sorts of stupid demands and then refuse to budge... they are used to dealing with third world countries like Saddam or Gaddafi... where they make unreasonable demands and when they are not met they invade or bomb because that was what they wanted to do in the first place.

    The people of the UK were unhappy about being dictated to by the EU so instead of discussing it they had a vote and decided to leave. Most people who voted had no idea what leaving the EU would do to the UK they were just sick of being told what to do by unelected officials in Brussels... ivory tower dickheads trying to create some western liberal utopia for everyone.

    Germans an russians have one thing in common, they suck in diplomacy, they suck in understanding complex alliances and even more so i adjusting plans to new realities.

    If you mean make shit up so they can bomb countries into submission then you are right... instead they are in Syria and HATO member Turkey and US forces in Iraq and of course Israel all object to them being there but they are there and they militarily thrashed the western supported terrorist groups in the process of overwhelming the Syrians... is that because they are dumb and don't understand complex alliances... they are selling S-400 SAM systems to Turkey a key member of HATO... to the outright shock and anger of the US... yeah... they are the amateurs....

    But lets be fair... French and American and British diplomacy created the paradise of Libya as it is today... great work there...

    Germans and Russians often tend to follow a certain plan, and show little ability to change their plan if needed. They are not pragmatic.

    You mean they are consistent? Funny because that would be a criticism I would raise about western diplomacy for the last 30 years... it seems to end up in a country getting bombed and then raped by the west... diplomacy has nothing to do with it.

    We French can lose on battle field but sit at winners table and dictate concessions. We can avoid active fighting but get the price. We can change our plan by 180° if needed.

    First bit is right, but I would say whiners table...

    Russians are very good at diplomacy. Since 10 years US/Fr/UK try to "isolate" them yet they have their word on every issue in the world.

    10 years? More like for their entire existence...

    Recently Macron non-diplomatically said that NATO is brain dead. Perhaps it's time to turn 180 deg. again & leave NATO.

    He is right... if he means it is a mindless zombie or golem directed by the US to keep the europeans from forming relationships with China or Russia, and for cannon fodder for their military adventures in world policing.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:30 pm

    All the Germans had to do was shoot Lenin as a Russian spy during WWI instead of trying and succeeding to send him home to destroy Russia.
    Imagine if the civil war was not between the monarchists and the commies.... imagine if it was just monarchists vs anti monarchists... socialist but not actually communist...
    even w/o Lenin, there were many other social democrat & anti-monarchist/marxist leaders who could take his place. Germany had him sign a separate peace, leading to the civil war & eventual Soviet defeats in Poland, Spain & Finland. But by the 1939 her diplomacy under Hitler was worse than British & Soviet- otherwise she would not be dragged to a war with the USSR & US, carpet bombed, & tried at Nuremberg.
    Well that is just basic common sense... you don't let a force of traitors to operate near a front line where they can be traitors again....
    no, the fear was that Vlasov, being Russian nationalist, would form his gov. on occupied lands Germans wanted to themselves & later confront the Germans.
    if the west actually believed the bullshit it spouts then Russia actually won the cold war because they were freed from communism and now enjoy the fruits of capitalism and democracy...
    but at the expense of territorial, economic & population losses she's still recovering from. Local wars in Chechnya, Georgia, & Ukraine r just holding actions before the larger ops come into being.

    if he means it is a mindless zombie or golem directed by the US to keep the europeans from forming relationships with China or Russia, and for cannon fodder for their military adventures in world policing.
    for being too independent, the US may try to oust him; it may be even easier than deposing Maduro.

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