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    "Kinzhal" hypersonic aviation-missile complex

    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Tue Feb 22, 2022 11:01 am

    I honestly dont think this was the actual impact video of a kinzhal. I could be wrong.

    And no physics is physics there is no hyping a hypersonic weapon. Just look at actual video impacts of brahmos against ships. The warhead is fairly big but the impacts even without explosives rips apart ships. Sometimes in half.

    Also looking at the latest pic above of the kinzhal, is this missile wrapped in RAM coating??

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    Atmosphere
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    Post  Atmosphere Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:18 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Can anyone answer this question for me that was posted on another site?

    Can someone explain to me the kinematics involved with the Kinzhal missile? From what I can see from Wikipedia et al. it is a gross 1000kg mass missile with a 500kg war head, that is supposed to travel at Mach 10 for 2000 miles. Wikipedia states on cruise kinetic energy of 17.2GJ. I don’t see that – I calculate terminal KE ~3.9GJ (I assume no significant propellant left at max range) and warhead to be 3GJ. Nowhere near the quoted value.

    Looking at it this the warhead seems to be roughly the same warhead size as a 1000kg bomb, give or take a bit; so the deposited energy (max) of the missile is ~2x a 1000kg bomb or somewhat more than a 16″ gun shell depending on the explosive amount in the shell.

    Whilst this will cause a lot of damage, it isn’t the devastation that I had expected, it seems like the damage from a hypersonic weapon is somewhat “hyped”


    Everything about this question is wrong. And that is the reason why weapon analysis and what is considered "hyped" or not is up to actual experts.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:44 pm

    Atmosphere wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Can anyone answer this question for me that was posted on another site?

    Can someone explain to me the kinematics involved with the Kinzhal missile? From what I can see from Wikipedia et al. it is a gross 1000kg mass missile with a 500kg war head, that is supposed to travel at Mach 10 for 2000 miles. Wikipedia states on cruise kinetic energy of 17.2GJ. I don’t see that – I calculate terminal KE ~3.9GJ (I assume no significant propellant left at max range) and warhead to be 3GJ. Nowhere near the quoted value.

    Looking at it this the warhead seems to be roughly the same warhead size as a 1000kg bomb, give or take a bit; so the deposited energy (max) of the missile is ~2x a 1000kg bomb or somewhat more than a 16″ gun shell depending on the explosive amount in the shell.

    Whilst this will cause a lot of damage, it isn’t the devastation that I had expected, it seems like the damage from a hypersonic weapon is somewhat “hyped”


    Everything about this question is wrong. And that is the reason why weapon analysis and what is considered "hyped" or not is up to actual experts.

    Thanks but is there something I can say in a technical response?
    Atmosphere
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    Post  Atmosphere Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:59 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Can anyone answer this question for me that was posted on another site?

    Can someone explain to me the kinematics involved with the Kinzhal missile? From what I can see from Wikipedia et al. it is a gross 1000kg mass missile with a 500kg war head, that is supposed to travel at Mach 10 for 2000 miles. Wikipedia states on cruise kinetic energy of 17.2GJ. I don’t see that – I calculate terminal KE ~3.9GJ (I assume no significant propellant left at max range) and warhead to be 3GJ. Nowhere near the quoted value.

    Looking at it this the warhead seems to be roughly the same warhead size as a 1000kg bomb, give or take a bit; so the deposited energy (max) of the missile is ~2x a 1000kg bomb or somewhat more than a 16″ gun shell depending on the explosive amount in the shell.

    Whilst this will cause a lot of damage, it isn’t the devastation that I had expected, it seems like the damage from a hypersonic weapon is somewhat “hyped”


    Everything about this question is wrong. And that is the reason why weapon analysis and what is considered "hyped" or not is up to actual experts.

    Thanks but is there something I can say in a technical response?

    sure thing mate. Without any offense to the author of the question, here are the misconceptions:
    -Max speed is mach 10-12 not mach 10
    -Terminal speed is mach 6 or above
    -There is no guessing, terminal speed based on the fact that there is no fuel left, its a very complicated task and needs specialists with appropriate equipment. The value given above is given by official sources but can be softballed for secrecy.
    - Weighing 4 tons empty, and moving at mach 6, terminal energy is 8.5 GJ, nowhere near the 3.9 GJ.
    -Cruising at mach 10 obviously leads to that colossally high energy
    -There is no guessing warhead power without knowing the mixture
    -there is no guessing terminal effect by adding up KE with explosive power, it does not work that way.

    Now to the hype part.
    The "hype", comes from evading sophisticated air defense, not the raw power, thats easily solvable, but the complicated task is evading air defence, this is where maneuvering at mach 6 is extremely dangerous. Hitting "really hard"is a second advantage to that.

    The comparison with a WW2 16 inch gun mounted on battleships and weighing 120 tons is incoherent, out of place, and leads to nowhere.
    Of course a 120 tube that lobs very large masses of HE is going to have lots of energy, what do you expect? But why is it being brought up here? Can this WW2 gun penetrate air defense? Can it give you 1m CEP at 2000 km? Can it ensure you fire while being out of retaliation zones?
    And even the hype about hitting power is deserved. You have a weapon weighing thirty times less than a massive WW2 battleship gun delivering way more energy at a target at 50 times the range. This is comparing the incomparable. It's like saying The S400's radar is overhyped because the AK74 has more chances of killing someone than someone dying by being hit by the rotating antenna of the S400's radar. Totally out of place.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:54 pm

    Atmosphere wrote:
    Thanks but is there something I can say in a technical response?

    sure thing mate. Without any offense to the author of the question, here are the misconceptions:
    -Max speed is mach 10-12 not mach 10
    -Terminal speed is mach 6 or above
    -There is no guessing, terminal speed based on the fact that there is no fuel left, its a very complicated task and needs specialists with appropriate equipment. The value given above is given by official sources but can be softballed for secrecy.
    - Weighing 4 tons empty, and moving at mach 6, terminal energy is 8.5 GJ, nowhere near the 3.9 GJ.
    -Cruising at mach 10 obviously leads to that colossally high energy
    -There is no guessing warhead power without knowing the mixture
    -there is no guessing terminal effect by adding up KE with explosive power, it does not work that way.

    Now to the hype part.
    The "hype", comes from evading sophisticated air defense, not the raw power, thats easily solvable, but the complicated task is evading air defence, this is where maneuvering at mach 6 is extremely dangerous. Hitting "really hard"is a second advantage to that.

    The comparison with a WW2 16 inch gun mounted on battleships and weighing 120 tons is incoherent, out of place, and leads to nowhere.
    Of course a 120 tube that lobs very large masses of HE is going to have lots of energy, what do you expect? But why is it being brought up here? Can this WW2 gun penetrate air defense? Can it give you 1m CEP at 2000 km? Can it ensure you fire while being out of retaliation zones?
    And even the hype about hitting power is deserved. You have a weapon weighing thirty times less than a massive WW2 battleship gun delivering way more energy at a target at 50 times the range. This is comparing the incomparable. It's like saying The S400's radar is overhyped because the AK74 has more chances of killing someone than someone dying by being hit by the rotating antenna of the S400's radar. Totally out of place.[/quote]

    Brilliant, mucho thanks.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Feb 23, 2022 4:18 am

    Can someone explain to me the kinematics involved with the Kinzhal missile? From what I can see from Wikipedia et al. it is a gross 1000kg mass missile with a 500kg war head, that is supposed to travel at Mach 10 for 2000 miles. Wikipedia states on cruise kinetic energy of 17.2GJ. I don’t see that – I calculate terminal KE ~3.9GJ (I assume no significant propellant left at max range) and warhead to be 3GJ. Nowhere near the quoted value.

    The Kinzhal is an air launched Iskander missile.

    Iskander is a ground launched missile with a range of 480km that is powered and manouvers all the way to the target... it does not go up and come down like a stone that has been thrown... it climbs to an altitude and levels off and flys towards the target area and then as it approaches it performs evasive manouvers to make it hard to target and then it dives down on the target... it is not a ballistic missile and does not follow a ballistic path, which makes it rather hard to intercept.

    The flight range of only 500km is because of all the manouvering. The flight speed is mach 6-7 and is largely because it is sitting on the ground and has to overcome its own weight and climb to altitude and then fly to the target area through the thickest air at ground level.

    The Iskander weighs 3.8 tons and the Kinzhal wont be any lighter.

    Kinzhal is launched at a speed of mach 2.2-2.4 and probably at an altitude of 16-18km so its rocket motor does not have to get the missile moving and climb through the thickest part of the atmosphere, which means it can climb rather higher to the thinner higher altitudes and it can accelerate to a much higher speed because when launched it is already moving at supersonic speeds.

    Being launched mid flight is the equivalent of having an extra rocket booster stage which increases flight speed and also range... speed given is mach 9-10 and the flight range is about 2,000km (not miles).... this is a Russian missile so descriptions are generally metric.

    Whilst this will cause a lot of damage, it isn’t the devastation that I had expected, it seems like the damage from a hypersonic weapon is somewhat “hyped”

    I am guessing he is describing something he has watched like a video.

    During an explosion basically essentially fuel is burned at supersonic speed... any conventional plastic explosive is going to explode at about 2-3km/s which is teh flight speed of this missile... so you could fill this warhead section with chunks of concrete and metal and the impact speed would scatter these fragments around like a bomb had exploded.

    In terms of sinking a ship a mach 10 vertical dive on a flight deck with a 100kg chunk of pointed metal with a rear open cone shape with 400kgs of HE with a delay fuse so the warhead punches through the flight deck and all the decks below that till it reaches water and then explodes would be the equivalent of punching a hole through someone... and when the tip or your pointed spear gets right through them extending spikes at every angle and then wrenching the spear back out through the wound.

    In practical terms punching a hole through the decks wont do critical damage to the ship as the damage would be quite localised as long as it doesn't go through fuel or ammo supplies or the nuclear reactors on the ships, but when the warhead hits the water and the HE charge explodes and creates an enormous air bubble that then lifts the ship at that weakened point and breaks its back then that ship is going to sink.

    The speed of the missile is about evading defences, and not so much about increasing damage, but obviously it is a useful feature against ships and also runways I would think as well as hardened bunkers too.

    Against soft targets like buildings you could use the same warhead design but explode the warhead above the target so the 100kg penetrator is shattered into fragments being driven forward by the explosion as well as the flight speed of the missile, which would be fairly devastating too.

    I honestly dont think this was the actual impact video of a kinzhal. I could be wrong.

    I agree... I don't think they are ready to reveal its shape just yet... why help those currently struggling to work out a shape that works?

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    Atmosphere
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    Post  Atmosphere Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:37 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    Atmosphere wrote:
    Thanks but is there something I can say in a technical response?

    sure thing mate. Without any offense to the author of the question, here are the misconceptions:
    -Max speed is mach 10-12 not mach 10
    -Terminal speed is mach 6 or above
    -There is no guessing, terminal speed based on the fact that there is no fuel left, its a very complicated task and needs specialists with appropriate equipment. The value given above is given by official sources but can be softballed for secrecy.
    - Weighing 4 tons empty, and moving at mach 6, terminal energy is 8.5 GJ, nowhere near the 3.9 GJ.
    -Cruising at mach 10 obviously leads to that colossally high energy
    -There is no guessing warhead power without knowing the mixture
    -there is no guessing terminal effect by adding up KE with explosive power, it does not work that way.

    Now to the hype part.
    The "hype", comes from evading sophisticated air defense, not the raw power, thats easily solvable, but the complicated task is evading air defence, this is where maneuvering at mach 6 is extremely dangerous. Hitting "really hard"is a second advantage to that.

    The comparison with a WW2 16 inch gun mounted on battleships and weighing 120 tons is incoherent, out of place, and leads to nowhere.
    Of course a 120 tube that lobs very large masses of HE is going to have lots of energy, what do you expect? But why is it being brought up here? Can this WW2 gun penetrate air defense? Can it give you 1m CEP at 2000 km? Can it ensure you fire while being out of retaliation zones?
    And even the hype about hitting power is deserved. You have a weapon weighing thirty times less than a massive WW2 battleship gun delivering way more energy at a target at 50 times the range. This is comparing the incomparable. It's like saying The S400's radar is overhyped because the AK74 has more chances of killing someone than someone dying by being hit by the rotating antenna of the S400's radar. Totally out of place.

    Brilliant, mucho thanks.[/quote]


    you're welcome mate!
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:14 pm

    Beyond physical effects the Kinzhal also provides the Russian military one very valuable capability that is near unmatched by anything except ICBMs:
    Anything within 2000 km of a MiG-31K on station is mere ~20 minutes away from being vaporized. Twisted Evil

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    Post  mnrck Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:00 pm



    https://odysee.com/trim.BC274EE8-411C-4D87-88DB-A80C18A72264:7


    Last edited by mnrck on Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Edit embbed video)

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    Post  JohninMK Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:17 pm

    Clint Ehrlich
    @ClintEhrlich
    ·
    3h

    BREAKING: Russia has fired hypersonic Kinzhal ("dagger") missiles in Ukraine.

    Officially, the weapons were used to destroy a munitions depot in Ivano-Frankivsk. In reality, this is a MAJOR deterrent signal to NATO.

    Today, Putin has also taken one step closer to the nuclear threshold. He just demoed Russia's premier tactical-nuke delivery system in Ukraine.

    The message to NATO could not be clearer: If you intervene in the conflict, I will use this system against you.

    By firing Kinzhals in Ukraine, Putin is sending a major "do not F with us" message to the West.

    He is reminding the world that, whatever logistics challenges his military faces, it retains an edge in absolute bleeding-edge nuclear and conventional weaponry.

    Due to its extreme range, it is a "carrier killer" – capable of wiping out an entire U.S. Carrier Strike Group.

    Russia's use of the Kinzhal in Ukraine is similar to Trump's use of the MOAB (Mother of All Bombs) in Afghanistan in 2017. Putin's decision to use the Kinzhal is more escalatory than Trump's use of the MOAB, because the Kinzhal is nuclear capable.

    In both instances, the point of the weapons deployment was not the immediate combat effect. The goal is to menace other adversaries by demoing a system.


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    Post  lyle6 Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:03 pm

    Hopefully the next time it malfunctions and lands wherever bunker that bitch zelensky is hiding in.
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    Post  flamming_python Sat Mar 19, 2022 5:30 pm

    lyle6 wrote:Hopefully the next time it malfunctions and lands wherever bunker that bitch zelensky is hiding in.

    He's in Poland somewhere. Maximum Lvov, but then that's Poland too or soon will be.

    Unless you buy that line about the Slovak, Polish and whoever else it was PM's traveling to Kiev by train a few days ago to meet him
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    Post  Hole Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:41 pm

    lyle6 wrote:Hopefully the next time it malfunctions and lands wherever bunker that bitch zelensky is hiding in.

    Well, that would be in Poland.
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    Post  GarryB Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:41 am

    -Terminal speed is mach 6 or above
    -There is no guessing, terminal speed based on the fact that there is no fuel left, its a very complicated task and needs specialists with appropriate equipment. The value given above is given by official sources but can be softballed for secrecy.

    Actually the external fins on the Iskander and Kinzhal are fixed and its only method of manouvering is the control surfaces inside its rocket exhaust so in effect it can only turn and manouver while the rocket motor is running... which it does from launch to impact... which is why its flight range is so short for a 4 ton missile...

    Today, Putin has also taken one step closer to the nuclear threshold. He just demoed Russia's premier tactical-nuke delivery system in Ukraine.

    There is no evidence of a nuclear armed Kinzhal missile... for all we know the vast majority will be conventionally armed... its key feature is high speed for evading air defence systems and also like good target penetration performance so carriers and bunkers...
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    Post  JohninMK Wed Apr 20, 2022 11:42 am

    A song "Anything you can do I can do better" or bigger in this case Laughing

    Cum-on America, you're lagging behind  Mad

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