Russian Space Program: News & Discussion #3

A Soyuz-ST launch with a European reconnaissance satellite due for launch today from French Guyana. Any last minute scrub would mean next year. By the way, is there a separate topic here that discusses upper stages? I feel like both Fregat and Briz have no equal when it comes to programmed maneuverability. Anyone has some comparative info on other systems?

George1 wrote:

Russian space agency expects Vostochny to start operating at full capacity next year

https://tass.com/science/1241187

One more year without any launch failures.     Here's hoping that the brain-drain induced spate of accidents, manufacturing faults and human errors are now a thing of the past.  

One more year without any launch failures.     Here's hoping that the brain-drain induced spate of accidents, manufacturing faults and human errors are now a thing of the past.  

And sabotage of course. You can't count that out.

https://english.pravda.ru/science/145473-russia_space/

https://iz.ru/1107164/2020-12-31/v-rossii-sobrali-maket-kosmicheskogo-korablia-orel-dlia-staticheskikh-ispytanii

Now it's mostly a race between US & China to the Moon & Mars. Russia is the 3rd.

Tsavo Lion wrote:https://iz.ru/1107164/2020-12-31/v-rossii-sobrali-maket-kosmicheskogo-korablia-orel-dlia-staticheskikh-ispytanii

Now it's mostly a race between US & China to the Moon & Mars. Russia is the 3rd.

Just stop talking this nonsense. China has just been able to repeat the achievement that Russia made 50 years ago. China is building its program based on the Soviet technological base. The United States is still at the level of loud statements that they are about to conquer the Galaxy. The real race will be held not on the subject of who will be able to stick their flag in the lunar regolith - but on the subject of who will be the first to realize the real involvement of space and planets in the earth's economy and embedding this space in their production chains.
It is obvious that the idea of "joint" space exploration has failed - from now on, each great power develops its space technologies with one important goal: to ensure national security and technological leadership. At the same time, the PR programs of each country choose the goals of this "race" that are convenient only for them.

The goals of the Russian space program are to provide independent access to space: both the production and launch of unmanned vehicles and manned ones that provide the full range of required functions necessary for monitoring and research of near-Earth space and the Earth. At the moment, Russia is ensuring the implementation of these tasks.

In addition, projects are being developed that will provide a qualitative leap in technology and, accordingly, opportunities. Imagine twenty-ton platforms in geostationary orbit with a megawatt power supply - what will be their capabilities relative to existing satellite platforms? What if it's a network of nuclear-pumped orbital lasers, huh? So: Russia is the only country on Earth that has come close to implementing such technologies. Everyone else is 10-15 years behind.

I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist, but even the December launch of the Angara-A5 could be used to launch any prototype of such devices into geostationary orbit - you still won't know the truth until you are confronted with the fact that Russia has such technologies. This was just an example, but I will remind you that the existence of such developments as "Peresvet","Poseidon","Dagger " - you learned mainly through media reports authorized for distribution.

What exploded at the landfill near the village of Nenoksa? What is the status of anti-satellite weapons development? What projects are being developed on the basis of a nuclear reactor with a capacity of megawatts or more? We won't know for sure in the next 5-15 years, probably.

The above post confirms what I'm saying: this is the round 2 of the space race, as the US was just sending probes out since the the Apollo 14, while China is steadily working to send taikonauts to the Moon.
How is Russia going to exploit its resources w/o sending any1 there to set up bases & processing facilities? I doubt her cosmonauts will get there before either of them.

I think Russia should focus on space stations and other useful projects while everyone else suffers casualties to attempted interplanetary missions with primitive technology.

The other thing they should do is to continue to work towards new engine types so that they will be the first to have a proper interstellar engine (the development of which may take well over 1000 years). The nuclear space tugs are the real achievement of modern space travel and yet the space circus is all that gets attention.

The only way Russia can avoid being overtaken by China in Space is by taking risks and investing in missions, first in probes and then in manned ones. This will give her a valuable experience and a boost in confidence as the technical prowess and industrial base is already there. This in turn will lead to innovation and ingenious solutions to mission scenarios. The nuclear space tug is a good start as it leverages an existing strength in compact nuclear reactor technology.
Less this, China will surely overtake it sometime in the near future. It may be using salvaged Soviet tech now and tomorrow. But this will progressively change as is the  case in everything China does. Look at it's automobile industry. It used to copy old Soviet trucks after the war. Then it started copying western vehicles and is now starting to forge its own path, specifically in electric cars. Now it is Russia who  needs  to copy Chinese cars. The space industry is no different.

Tsavo Lion wrote: The above post confirms what I'm saying: this is the round 2 of the space race, as the US was just sending probes out since the the Apollo 14, while China is steadily working to send taikonauts to the Moon.
How is Russia going to exploit its resources w/o sending any1 there to set up bases & processing facilities? I doubt her cosmonauts will get there before either of them.

Daniel_Admassu wrote:The only way Russia can avoid being overtaken by China in Space is by taking risks and investing in missions, first in probes and then in manned ones. This will give her a valuable experience and a boost in confidence as the technical prowess and industrial base is already there. This in turn will lead to innovation and ingenious solutions to mission scenarios. The nuclear space tug is a good start as it leverages an existing strength in compact nuclear reactor technology.
Less this, China will surely overtake it sometime in the near future. It may be using salvaged Soviet tech now and tomorrow. But this will progressively change as is the  case in everything China does. Look at it's automobile industry. It used to copy old Soviet trucks after the war. Then it started copying western vehicles and is now starting to forge its own path, specifically in electric cars. Now it is Russia who  needs  to copy Chinese cars. The space industry is no different.

Such ignorant neglect has led to the collapse of more than one civilization. Let's remember the technologically advanced empires: the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the French Empire, Germany and Austria-Hungary. They were all the leading technological powers of their time - and where are they now? China was the most technologically advanced in Asia for a long time of its existence, but did this prevent its destruction many times? In the end, Chinese self-confidence and pride brought their country to almost complete destruction and turned into a Western colony. If it were not for the help of the USSR, the current China simply would not exist.

But now you do not have such a powerful patron as the USSR, and Chinese technologies are experiencing obvious problems with independent innovative developments in such industries as space technology, aviation, metallurgy and many other critical areas. China has come close to a crisis situation, and you are still confident about the future, as if China will continue to be given the ideal conditions for growth in the future.
Have you learned nothing from history?

But now you do not have such a powerful patron as the USSR, and Chinese technologies are experiencing obvious problems with independent innovative developments in such industries as space technology, aviation, metallurgy and many other critical areas. China has come close to a crisis situation, and you are still confident about the future, as if China will continue to be given the ideal conditions for growth in the future.
Have you learned nothing from history?

Well, China hasn't looked up to the USSR since like the 70s. All it did was copy its products for quick access to development. In industries like military aviation and space it still tries to copy Russia for no other reason than because it simply is the best. However, in almost all others it has long been copying Japan and the west. And it had paid off, as they have mastered, if not excelled at, most sophisticated tech the west has to offer. I don't know why space or aviation engine technology should be any different. It is just a matter of time as they involve material technology and complex thermal modeling know-how that you can't just rip off. But I believe that they will get there given time and enough funds.

It is similar to the mechanical engineering and instrumentation industry of the germans. German industrial culture held on its hands-on approach to precision engineering instead of outsourcing everything like the French or others did. This paid off hugely by the time Chinese industry was expanding rapidly thanks to the outsourced manufacturing from the United States and Europe, and China needed all the factory automation it could get. And China could not easily copy the hands-on precision engineering know how of the germans. At one point they were known as the factory of Chinese factories. But now slowly but inexorably the Chinese have gotten there. They are making more and more of their own machines and what they can't copy, they buy out. Do you know that they are now the owners of Kuka Robotics? That company is simply the world's best in precision automation.

Look, I resent Chinese ripping off of others as much as the next guy. But that doesn't mean we have to go for reality denial. The best days of China may or may not be behind them. That knowledge sure calls for a wizard. But looking at the path that it came along and the economic momentum it has built, do you really think a technology gap in one industry or another is going to be a hurdle for China for long?

Daniel_Admassu wrote:
Look, I resent Chinese ripping off of others as much as the next guy.

Sorry, but the Chinese aren't ripping anyone off (well, no more than is normal in a global competitive marketplace).  The Chinese have got where they are today by crystal-clear strategtic vision, hard work, discipline, patience and a thick skin for the slings and arrows of arrogant foreigners who look down on them and exploit them for cheap labour.  This recent intensification of the pushback against China is symptomatic of a corrupt and feckless Western ruling establishment who have suddenly woken up to the reality that China is becoming a powerhouse in all the important hard-power metrics and that the West has lost its comptetive edge.  They are frankly TERRIFIED that the much-vaunted exceptionalist Western Civilisation has reaching its zenith and are in decline just as China is hitting its stride and heading to the global No1 slot.  

Well, I say FUCK 'EM. Our elites had their opportunity to cement the West as global leaders, but they blew it by being greedy agressive arrogant murderous bastards.  It will be interesting to see if the Chinese can maintain their alternative governance style when they claim the mantle of Top Dog.

Big_Gazza wrote:

Daniel_Admassu wrote:
Look, I resent Chinese ripping off of others as much as the next guy.

Sorry, but the Chinese aren't ripping anyone off (well, no more than is normal in a global competitive marketplace).  The Chinese have got where they are today by crystal-clear strategtic vision, hard work, discipline, patience and a thick skin for the slings and arrows of arrogant foreigners who look down on them and exploit them for cheap labour.  This recent intensification of the pushback against China is symptomatic of a corrupt and feckless Western ruling establishment who have suddenly woken up to the reality that China is becoming a powerhouse in all the important hard-power metrics and that the West has lost its comptetive edge.  They are frankly TERRIFIED that the much-vaunted exceptionalist Western Civilisation has reaching its zenith and are in decline just as China is hitting its stride and heading to the global No1 slot.  

Well, I say FUCK 'EM. Our elites had their opportunity to cement the West as global leaders, but they blew it by being greedy agressive arrogant murderous bastards.  It will be interesting to see if the Chinese can maintain their alternative governance style when they claim the mantle of Top Dog.

Well, China actually got the rights to develop Mir modules. Hence how China kinda moved into the space race pretty quick. Much like how China did copy the design of Soyuz, MiG 1.42, Su-33/30/27, etc. No, China didn't persevere like you think they have without copying.

This is nothing new- the Mongols adopted many things from China to bring them to the borders of the Holy Roman Empire; later the Japanese started to Westernize & avoided their subjugation till 1945. China is doing what others done before her.

The copy culture has resulted in a lack of innovation and development of real knowhow.

since the West been ahead of them, it was unavoidable. OTH, many Chinese inventions were adopted & copied by others in the last 2K+ years.
More recently, the 1st AWACS plane was the Soviet Tu-126 based on the Tu-114 based on the Tu-95 based on the Tu-4/80/85 based on the B-29.

Eventually things will normalize.

exactly- they had a head start & now have a base with relevant know-how upon which to develop their own products.

There is nothing wrong with "copying", even if the use of that phrase carries with it a vieled accusation of theft/subterfuge. The alternative, ie not developing a technology cuz someone else "built it first" is just plain stupid. It makes eminant sense to be inspired to emulate a technological solution that someone else has proved, as long as the emulation is developed using domestic technologies and design/manufacturing methodolies.

I'd hold the Soviet Buran as an example. The Soviet military wanted a direct equlivalent of the US Shuttle as a counterbalance to its military potential (and it DID have potential as an orbital weapons platform, regardless of the BS denial by Western 'experts'). The Buran was broadly comparable to Shuttle (and was an improvement in many respects) and while the orbiter had a very similar general arrangement to the US vehicle, the engineering under the skin was 100% Soviet indiginous. It was not a "copy".