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    PAK-DΑ: News #2

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:48 am

    A stealth bomber that can safely overfly most available air defences would also be excellent at hunting down carrier groups. The B2 bomber can bomb targets half the world away from air force bases on CONUS with just one or two refuelings - a PAK-DA should be able to do something similar.
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    Post  dino00 Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:19 am

    Source: final look of the new stealth bomber confirmed

    MOSCOW, April 2 - RIA Novosti. The Russian Defense Ministry has approved the final look of the stealth bomber, also called the Perspective Long-Range Aviation Complex (PAK DA), which is being created by Tupolev, with priority given to reducing the aircraft's signature and long-range weapons, a source in the military-industrial complex told RIA Novosti.

    "Based on the results of a series of tests of aircraft mock-ups for radar signature, as well as the results of checks of the aerodynamic qualities of aircraft mock-ups at TsAGI, the Russian military department approved the final technical appearance of the PAK DA. Development work under the program is at the detailed design stage, several prototypes of a promising bomber are under construction. ", - said the interlocutor of the agency.

    According to him, the new bomber will be built according to the "flying wing" aerodynamic scheme, will receive a subsonic speed and a long flight duration, it will use only intra-fuselage weapons, including promising long-range cruise missiles and hypersonic missiles, the on-board equipment of the aircraft will be maximally automated, up to to optional unmanned use, and the priority in the PAK DA concept is given to "stealth" technologies and appropriate tactics of use, including "long arm" (long-range weapons).

    "It is also assumed that the bomber will be able to control groups of unmanned aerial vehicles and will be able to use the entire range of air-to-air missiles," the source added.


    https://ria.ru/20210402/bombardirovschik-1603884695.html


    Last edited by dino00 on Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Different translation)

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    dino00
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    Post  dino00 Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:50 am

    ...the on-board equipment of the aircraft will be maximally automated, up to optional unmanned use...


    Last edited by dino00 on Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:52 am

    Looking good, more indications that the PAK-DA will be a multipurpose long range, long persistence and low detectable platform. Tactical and strategic missile carrier or bomber, coms relay, UAV control node, ISR, maritime patrol and probably some more we do not fully grasp yet thumbsup

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    Post  dino00 Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:59 am

    LMFS wrote:Looking good, more indications that the PAK-DA will be a multipurpose long range, long persistence and low detectable platform. Tactical and strategic missile carrier or bomber, coms relay, UAV control node, ISR, maritime patrol and probably some more we do not fully grasp yet thumbsup

    Long endurance interceptor

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    Post  PapaDragon Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:13 am

    dino00 wrote:Source: final look of the new stealth bomber confirmed

    MOSCOW, April 2 - RIA Novosti. The Russian Defense Ministry has approved the final look of the stealth bomber....l

    Nice, nice...

    So can we see it, please? Pretty please? With sugar on top? angry

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    Post  mnztr Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:56 am

    It will be able to use the entire range of AAM? Wow.. Is there any chance the Russians and Chinese are cooperating on this? The timeline seems compatible with the H20.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:35 am

    will be able to use the entire range of air-to-air missiles

    So those new heavy long range AAMs that carry multiple mini missiles for the long range engagement of multiple smaller targets could be carried in large numbers by this aircraft... it could be used to patrol arctic areas and areas in the far east looking for low flying cruise missile infiltration... Iran might want to buy some to protect themselves from Israeli or US mass cruise missile attack...

    Now that they have finalised the design perhaps revealing a model at an upcoming event might be something they are thinking about...
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    Post  Arrow Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:02 am

    So Russia is building a total of two new strategic bombers. The supersonic Tu-160M2 and the subsonic stealth PAK DA. They are also modernizing the Tu-22M3. This is better than the US and China, which are only working on one type of strategic bomber.For this in the development of hypersonic missiles for strategic aviation.
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    Post  lancelot Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:35 am

    Arrow wrote:So Russia is building a total of two new strategic bombers. The supersonic Tu-160M2 and the subsonic stealth PAK DA. They are also modernizing the Tu-22M3. This is better than the US and China, which are only working on one type of strategic bomber.For this in the development of hypersonic missiles for strategic aviation.

    Yes, while the USAF claims to want to retire the B-1 bomber after having spent a ridiculous amount of money upgrading the avionics of the aircraft just recently with all new radars.
    It seems the low level flights they did with it in Afghanistan reduced the life of the airframes and they are not willing to spend more money to fix all of them up as planned.
    That gas station with nukes does it again.

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    Post  mnztr Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:20 am

    Arrow wrote:So Russia is building a total of two new strategic bombers. The supersonic Tu-160M2 and the subsonic stealth PAK DA. They are also modernizing the Tu-22M3. This is better than the US and China, which are only working on one type of strategic bomber.For this in the development of hypersonic missiles for strategic aviation.

    The US seems to have bought on to the fact that Stealth is king and B-52 is just fine as well. But Russia I believe will field 4 types of bombers simultaneously. TU-95 is not going away, its to darn efficient and cheap to operate. They will have 2 supersonic bombers as they seem confident that supersonic dash will offer very significant tactical advantages. Remember we have seen strategic bomber assume a tactical role in the last 2 decades. If you have a TU-160 or 22 in orbit, its supersonic sprint can allow it to cover a much larger area with a single plane then a tu-95 or B-21 lumbering along and 800 KPH. It can cover perhaps 3x the area. With its massive tankage the TU-160 can sprint 500 km at mach 2 and STILL have a huge amount of fuel to loiter. Also it can outrun most fighters sent to intercept it. Even the F-22 will run out of gas trying to catch it.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:52 am

    I suspect the Tu-22M3M upgrades are to just keep them viable heavy theatre bombers until the PAK DA is ready because it has a dual role of strategic cruise missile carrier and also theatre heavy bomber.

    They will withdraw the Tu-95s and Tu-22M3Ms as they produce Tu-160s and PAK-DAs to replace them respectively... the new Blackjacks are not intended for freefall weapons like bombs AFAIK.

    The issue is that the Bears are young aircraft... the American B-52s were made in the 1950s and 1960s so they are old despite being overhauled and upgraded... the Bears the Russians have in operation were made late 1980s and early 1990s so they are still very young aircraft and being fuel efficient and long ranged they are useful aircraft.

    Improvements in production accuracy and design ability has meant several incremental improvements in their engines and the propeller blades to improve performance of the aircraft without making it more expensive.
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    Post  mnztr Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:12 pm

    I don't think they will retire the Bear anytime soon. Its just so useful and so cheap to operate vs TU-160 or 22. It is possible the PAK DA may be a super cheap plane to operate as well, but I doubt it will have the adaptabilty of the Bear to just get out the tin snips and welding equipment to make it carry an weapon you can dream up. The TU-22 I can see that being optimized for naval strike. I do not so them retiring the TU-22 until  the latest upgrades age out and I can see them upgrading them steadlity. M3M service life is extended to 45 years, so they will be around as long as 2042. But at least 15 years I would guess. I see Russia using bombers very differently. Apparently PAK DA will be able to operate as a drone as well. Maybe they will just put one man on board and it will be insanely cheap to operate. They can fly them like giant fighters, put conformal radar arrays on them and fly 10-12 planes anywere to dominate a theatre for a long time with a massive load of missiles and awacs capability.

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:49 pm


    First I e to retire will be Tu-22M, there's not that many of them and as supersonic aircraft they cost more to operate than Bears

    Plus there's a big overlap with​ Tu-160 for cruise missiles and PAK-DA for conventional weapons

    As PAK-DA and more Tu-160s come online Tu-22M will be pushed to storage while Bears will stay in service for very long time as cheap land strike platform for conventional cruise missiles due to being cheap to operate and really durable

    Prestige duties like nuclear deterrence and naval strikes will fully go to Tu-160 and PAK-DA with PAK-DA also doing conventional bombing gigs in addition to regular stuff

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    Post  lyle6 Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:03 pm

    The Tu-22M3s can still find use in the naval aviation, reprising its long range maritime anti-ship role. They would actually make a far better launcher for the Kinzhal missile than the MiG-31K, for starters carrying 4 missiles instead of the one for the latter. Longer ranged, yet could still do supersonic dashes necessary to outrun interdiction efforts. Really, its a waste if they retire them without at least considering this option.

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    Post  LMFS Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:15 pm

    The PAK-DA will not have the supersonic dash capability of the Tu-22M3, once the avionics and systems are upgraded and weapons are developed for internal carriage, such platforms will have a lot of value and will not be replaced for for many years I would say...
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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:57 pm

    LMFS wrote:The PAK-DA will not have the supersonic dash capability of the Tu-22M3, once the avionics and systems are upgraded and weapons are developed for internal carriage, such platforms will have a lot of value and will not be replaced for for many years I would say...

    Supersonic dash is irrelevant when you have low observable platform armed with long range missiles


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    Post  Backman Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:Source: final look of the new stealth bomber confirmed

    MOSCOW, April 2 - RIA Novosti. The Russian Defense Ministry has approved the final look of the stealth bomber....l

    Nice, nice...

    So can we see it, please? Pretty please? With sugar on top? angry


    Gotta wait till MAKS 2021 Wink

    The tu-22 always seems like the odd man out but in a real war, the thing would be very handy and more expendable than precious tu-160's

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    Post  mnztr Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:49 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Supersonic dash is irrelevant when you have low observable platform armed with long range missiles


    As developments are showing us, low observability is a rapidly eroding advantage.

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    Post  mnztr Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:52 pm

    Does not make sense to retire TU-22s and fly more missions with TU-160 with 2x the power and size. TU-22 is cheap because they haev a HUGE boneyard of parts. Mantaining a fleet of 25-50 planes will be pretty cheap. Fuel cost is NEVER a consideration for RUAF

    PapaDragon wrote:
    First I e to retire will be Tu-22M, there's not that many of them and as supersonic aircraft they cost more to operate than Bears

    Plus there's a big overlap with​ Tu-160 for cruise missiles and PAK-DA for conventional weapons

    As PAK-DA and more Tu-160s come online Tu-22M will be pushed to storage while Bears will stay in service for very long time as cheap land strike platform for conventional cruise missiles due to being cheap to operate and really durable

    Prestige duties like nuclear deterrence and naval strikes will fully go to Tu-160 and PAK-DA with PAK-DA also doing conventional bombing gigs in addition to regular stuff

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    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:32 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Supersonic dash is irrelevant when you have low observable platform armed with long range missiles


    As developments are showing us, low observability is a rapidly eroding advantage.

    Long range missiles are not

    Same goes for flying wing configuration

    Missiles do the supersonic dash now, Cold War is over

    Tu-22 is first to go


    mnztr wrote:Does not make sense to retire TU-22s and fly more missions with TU-160 with 2x the power and size....

    PAK-DA will be doing it's missions not Tu-160


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    Post  GarryB Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:03 am

    I rather expect the expansion of the Russian Navy and introduction of bases around the world potentially being able to base Tu-22M3 in places like Syria would be useful.

    Certainly the Bear would also be valuable in such a role and I would think with external wing pylons for 10-12 missiles carried externally would make it a very potent carrier of missiles like Kinzhal or air launched versions of Zircon... in fact imagine a long range version of Zircon... it has a scramjet engine which could work from the flight speed of the Bear (600-800km/h) up to mach 10.... use it like the Alpha type cruise missiles with long range subsonic low altitude flight and then accelerate to supersonic speeds for terminal attack.

    Get a bog standard (sic) Zircon missile and make it 3-4 tons heavier with an enormous fuel tank that has built in wings... design it so you can launch it and it flys at high subsonic speed and flys for perhaps 5,000km (the scramjet in the Zircon will be much more powerful than the turbojet in the Kh-101, which achieves 5,000km range with about 2 tons of fuel, so double the fuel for the extra weight... but as it approaches 5,000km range it should be very light so climb and accelerate using the scramjet to say 20km altitude and mach 3-4 dropping the external conformal tank and extra wing... then go full speed and climb and accelerate to Zircon speeds to attack the target... which could be in the US... attacking from the south pacific... or it could be the EU or UK from the mid atlantic ocean...

    Maybe Iran might want to buy some Tu-22M3Ms when Russia is finished with them and perhaps buy some other models to upgrade to that standard... Twisted Evil
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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:07 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    LMFS wrote:The PAK-DA will not have the supersonic dash capability of the Tu-22M3, once the avionics and systems are upgraded and weapons are developed for internal carriage, such platforms will have a lot of value and will not be replaced for for many years I would say...

    Supersonic dash is irrelevant when you have low observable platform armed with long range missiles



    Not so sure. Supersonic dash for naval strike allows the attacking platform to quickly mobilise into the a firing position, plus allows it to withdraw in haste should it encounter stiff resistance by enemy fighters. A Tu-22M3M carrying a brace of Khinzhal can fly into position, release the payload, and bug out at a dash. Even if enemy F35s or similar launch a brace of AIM-120Cs in a tail chase the Tu-22M3M with the hammer down in a short sprint will likely outpace them. A subsonic PAK DA would need to expose itself if firing short-range stand-off weapons.

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    Post  mnztr Sun Apr 04, 2021 5:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Maybe Iran might want to buy some Tu-22M3Ms when Russia is finished with them and perhaps buy some other models to upgrade to that standard...  Twisted Evil

    I would love to see NetanBoo-hoos reaction to that. Seriously I think the Iranian regime is evil, based on how it treats its people, but the saber rattling approach is just pointless. The USA has a massive box of hammers and every problem looks like a nail to them.
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:53 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Not so sure. Supersonic dash for naval strike allows the attacking platform to quickly mobilise into the a firing position, plus allows it to withdraw in haste should it encounter stiff resistance by enemy fighters. A Tu-22M3M carrying a brace of Khinzhal can fly into position, release the payload, and bug out at a dash. Even if enemy F35s or similar launch a brace of AIM-120Cs in a tail chase...

    Ships are not airplanes, if you need to quickly mobilize for them it means you dropped the ball already

    You should know at all times where potentially hostile ships are (again this is not cold War anymore) and if they are in proximity your bombers should already be in the air and on patrol (hence very long endurance of PAK-DA, something Tu-22s don't have)

    And if your bombers are in shooting range of carrier based F-35 then it means you seriously fucked up (new air launched anti-ship missiles have more range than F-35 and their missiles combined so if F-35 gets close to bombers it's a serious no-no)

    And if there's any potential need for quick response by Naval aviation it will be covered by Su-34s​ that Navy is ordering now




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