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    Russian Civil Aviation: News #3

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:54 am

    Firebird wrote:
    Only thing is, presidents refuse to fly in 2 engines.But everyone else doesn't have a choice.
    I'd rather pay a little more and have 4 engines. Just as some people pay a little more and have a safer car/fly a safer airline.

    well, perhaps you're right with the safety. Nevertheless all airlines switched to 2 engines - also for transatlantic (and pacific) flights. Including CR-929
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    william.boutros

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    Post  william.boutros on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:16 pm

    Il-96 is a plan B and trying to keep some expertise within the industry.
    The plane is not competitive with twin engine planes. The body and wings are previous generation.
    They will improve avionics and use new Russian engines in the new design but not more.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:53 pm

    william.boutros wrote:Il-96 is a plan B and trying to keep some expertise within the industry.
    The plane is not competitive with twin engine planes. The body and wings are previous generation.
    They will improve avionics and use new Russian engines in the new design but not more.

    The body (fuselage) of the il96 is fine, and there is already a significant use of composites in it. A new wing can be paired to it when they do the twin version with PD35 engines.

    The Airbus A330 has the same age, and they just presented a modernised version with new engines.

    Is not just a plan B. Is a solution for the present, and fundamental for the aeronautical transport in Russia in case of further problems with European companies due to them being American puppets.

    Without it they will lose the capability to independently build large civil airplanes, and to recover it is very costly and time consuming.

    In addition it is fully Russian and will be assembled in Russia, while the CRAIG929  will be assembled in China.

    Even the 2021 version with 4 PS-90A1 engines can have also some success abroad among countries that have problems with the US politics (Venezuela,  Iran, Iraq, Syria, maybe in the future even Lybia and Egypt)

    So, while I do not believe it will be built in very large numbers, I believe it is a fundamental project.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:57 pm

    william.boutros wrote:Il-96 is a plan B and trying to keep some expertise within the industry.
    The plane is not competitive with twin engine planes. The body and wings are previous generation.
    They will improve avionics and use new Russian engines in the new design but not more.

    Not only expertize. It is plan B if CR-929 is delayed, it is fully Russian wide-body plane, proven frame.

    As for obsolence. Same with A-330 neo is this also obsolete? A330 is same age as Il-96.
    Can be upgraded with new materials/wings like A330 to A330Neo so unless A-330neo is obsolete then Il-96 is as well.



    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:59 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Even the 2021 version with 4 PS-90A1 engines can have also some success abroad among countries that have problems with the US politics (Venezuela,  Iran, Iraq, Syria, maybe in the future even Lybia and Egypt)t.

    with current US policy number of potential clients is going only to grow lol1 lol1 lol1
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    marat

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    Post  marat on Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:50 am

    Same as capability of such "clients" to actually pay will shrink.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:15 am

    marat wrote:Same as capability of such "clients" to actually pay will shrink.
    they are all country with large oil or naturale gas reserves.
    In addition there are many African countries with a lot of rare earths or minerals reserves.
    Who said that they have to pay in US dollars?
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:55 am

    marat wrote:Same as capability of such "clients" to actually pay will shrink.

    Not neccessarily.

    The countries that are diversifying their supply base are typically growing economies that are slowly moving away from the US, but still keep good relations with it.
    Turkey, Egypt, Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, Nigeria, Pakistan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, etc...

    Then you have the traditional Russian-orientated countries that have good enough relations with the West to avoid sanctions too and secure growth. Kazakhstan, Vietnam, Algeria, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, India and so on.
    Neutral countries such as Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, most African states

    But as for the Il-96 I think it would primarily be of interest to exactly those sanctioned countries with bad relations with the West that Russia is willing to operate a credit line for in exchange for natural resource rights.
    So Cuba, Venezuela, Syria, Belarus and so on.
    Possibly some African states might be interested and Serbia too (if the Il-96 passenger version passes all certification in Europe).
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:46 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    marat wrote:Same as capability of such "clients" to actually pay will shrink.

    Not neccessarily.

    The countries that are diversifying their supply base are typically growing economies that are slowly moving away from the US, but still keep good relations with it.
    Turkey, Egypt, Philippines, Indonesia, Thailand, Nigeria, Pakistan, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Serbia, etc...

    Then you have the traditional Russian-orientated countries that have good enough relations with the West to avoid sanctions too and secure growth. Kazakhstan, Vietnam, Algeria, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, India and so on.
    Neutral countries such as Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, most African states

    But as for the Il-96 I think it would primarily be of interest to exactly those sanctioned countries with bad relations with the West that Russia is willing to operate a credit line for in exchange for natural resource rights.
    So Cuba, Venezuela, Syria, Belarus and so on.
    Possibly some African states might be interested and Serbia too (if the Il-96 passenger version passes all certification in Europe).

    The Il-96T (cargo version) received FAA type certificate in 1999. https://www.flightglobal.com/il-96-marks-a-first-with-us-certification/26963.article

    I do not believe there should be issues for the Il-96-400M, since it is just a modernization of the il-96 that is flying since the 90s and has proven to be reliable and safe.

    In case American or European authorities creates problems for certifying the plane (based on sanctions and politics instead of being based on real safety reasons), than Russia could ban all foreign planes to operate with Russian companies.

    By the way, probably this article had already been posted here...

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2020-01-13/first-ilyushin-il-96-400m-takes-shape

    Plans call for the Il-96’s twin-engine derivative to fly in 2025 and acquire certification two years later.
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    Post  Austin on Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:45 am

    Looks like the Tu-204 production line will be running for quite some time

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2020-01-16/russia-considers-redundant-jetliners-anti-sub-role
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:23 am

    Austin wrote:Looks like the Tu-204 production line will be running for quite some time

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2020-01-16/russia-considers-redundant-jetliners-anti-sub-role
    I believe that tu204 and A40/Be42 could be complementary in their use as naval patrol and ASW.
    Afterwards, they use three different platforms now (il38, be12 and Tu142). In addition, the tu204 and the A40 could share the same engines.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:35 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Austin wrote:Looks like the Tu-204 production line will be running for quite some time

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2020-01-16/russia-considers-redundant-jetliners-anti-sub-role
    I believe that tu204 and A40/Be42 could be complementary in their use as naval patrol and ASW.
    Afterwards,  they use three different platforms now (il38, be12 and Tu142). In addition, the tu204 and the A40 could share the same engines.

    A40/Be42 is not happening, project was stillborn

    And having 3 different aircraft for same role is idiotic, they are finally doing the right thing with ASW Tu-204 so no need to waste time on other nonsense

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    Post  william.boutros on Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:28 pm

    Weren't they going to use the Be-200?
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    Post  kvs on Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:31 pm

    Miniaturizing ASW tech into an upsized drone would be more interesting. If they could do this, then they could run several drones
    over target areas and get a more effective result.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:29 am

    william.boutros wrote:Weren't they going to use the Be-200?

    It was one of proposals but it didn't go through

    Tu-204 is best solution by far, proven aircraft with adequate size

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Jan 21, 2020 2:18 pm

    kvs wrote:Miniaturizing ASW tech into an upsized drone would be more interesting.   If they could do this, then they could run several drones
    over target areas and get a more effective result.    

    Till hte time time Il-38/Tu-142 resource would be over. Safer approach is to use what you have as proven airframe and then to have time to develop right drone.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:40 pm

    Don´t know if posted before. dunno
    Russian Civil Aviation: News #3 - Page 30 Pd-14_10
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    Austin

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    Post  Austin on Sun Jan 26, 2020 6:43 am

    The aviation industry - prospects and condition. Press Review

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/129667/
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    Post  Austin on Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:42 pm

    DELVING INSIDE THE “A320SKI”, RUSSIA’S IRKUT MC-21

    https://www.airlineratings.com/news/industry-news/delving-inside-a320ski-russias-irkut-mc-21/


    Alexander Neradko spoke about the line of aircraft for regional transportation

    https://aviation21.ru/aleksandr-neradko-rasskazal-o-linejke-samolyotov-dlya-regionalnyx-perevozok/
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    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 08, 2020 3:10 pm

    Austin wrote:DELVING INSIDE THE “A320SKI”, RUSSIA’S IRKUT MC-21

    https://www.airlineratings.com/news/industry-news/delving-inside-a320ski-russias-irkut-mc-21/

    Any article using insulting tags such as Concordski, A320ski, etc. are pure intellectually insulting drivel
    and not worth the time of day. Once authors of such hack pieces start applying the same standard to
    Boeing and Airbus, then maybe they will have some tokens for "impartiality".

    BTW the Concorde was a reduced capability ripoff of Soviet designs. The west never built narrow
    fuselage jets like the numerous examples from the USSR. The same can be said for the Valkyrie which
    is a non sequitur to previous US military jets including the B-52. By contrast the USSR established
    its own design trend with the Tu-95 (which western fake stream media claims is a ripoff of the
    look-nothing-like-it B-29 showing us the gullibility of western media consumer sheep).

    Browse the Tupolev designs during the 1950s and 1960s and you will see that the Tu-144 fits in
    perfectly. But the Tu-144 and the "Concorde" and "Valkyrie" are discontinuities in the US/UK/France
    designs.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:33 pm

    A lot of stupid things in the article. The wings do not need wingtip devices because they are already designed from the start to have the required aerodynamics characteristics without them. A320, 737 etc no.
    By the way, more width in the cabin also means a larger aisle, facilitating the move of people and allowing 2 people to go up or down the aisle at the same time.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:07 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:A lot of stupid things in the article. The wings do not need wingtip devices because they are already designed from the start to have the required aerodynamics characteristics  without them. A320,  737 etc no.
    By the way, more width in the cabin also means a larger aisle, facilitating the move of people and allowing 2 people to go up or down the aisle at the same time.

    The usual internet fanboi crap. I have been hearing about these precious winglets for years. As if they are such a freaking challenge for Russian
    aircraft makers. Seriously. The morons who spout such "analysis" don't have even the basic education to understand airfoil design. When Russian
    designers talk about thin wing designs they are not jerking off in public, they are talking about real innovations.
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    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:58 am

    MS-21 has High Wing Aspect Ratio.

    More from TsAGI http://tsagi.com/pressroom/news/3167/
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    Post  Austin on Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:04 am

    Follow up to IL-96 design ?

    http://tsagi.com/pressroom/news/4516/

    TsAGI develops light multi-purpose aircraft for regional aviation

    http://tsagi.com/pressroom/news/4514/
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Feb 11, 2020 2:00 pm

    Austin wrote:Follow up to IL-96 design ?

    http://tsagi.com/pressroom/news/4516/


    No it is a much smaller airplane than the il 96.
    It is a n airplane for about 200 passengers with 8000 km range, so about 2000 km more than the MC21.

    It is a similar concept as the Airbus A321XLR, the extended range version of the A321.

    Maybe these studies could be directly applied to the long range version of the MC-21-400.

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