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    Russia-Turkey S-400 missile deal

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:42 pm

    The US/NATO may scream and shout about the S-400, it is don't forget a two edged sword.

    I wonder if the S-400 radar data on a F-22 or F-35 or even an F-16 has fed back into their Intel from an obliging friend in Turkish AD yet. I asked above where the money for a second batch was coming from. I'd say it was definitely worth the US giving the Turks the money for it in payment for that information.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:41 pm

    JohninMK wrote:The US/NATO may scream and shout about the S-400, it is don't forget a two edged sword.

    I wonder if the S-400 radar data on a F-22 or F-35 or even an F-16 has fed back into their Intel from an obliging friend in Turkish AD yet. I asked above where the money for a second batch was coming from. I'd say it was definitely worth the US giving the Turks the money for it in payment for that information.

    No need

    The moment first Turkish radar operator spots F-35 on screen the cat will be out of the bag

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:38 pm

    Yeah and then they will have a data worth using only against Turkish S-400.

    I doubt Turkey would be happy with that situation. US f-35 are more likely to bomb Ankara than Moscow. Greece is also going to buy f-35. Israel already have them. US knowing their S-400's weak spots means Greek/Israeli f-35 more likely to survive them during a bombing.

    S-400 also doesn't need thousand people to be ussed. Less than 10 should be enough to use it (not driving or maintenance part). They must have choosed patriots to man them that will be less likely to sell data to anyone.

    Turks have a lot of patriots people that hates US or NATO.

    Russian S-400 are also better integrated. OTH radars will see f-35s coming way before S-400. Then Nebo will see them then S-400 and shorter range systems will see their munitions...
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:09 pm

    I wonder if the S-400 radar data on a F-22 or F-35 or even an F-16 has fed back into their Intel from an obliging friend in Turkish AD yet.

    Lots of software in those Turkish systems that could lead them to false conclusions about what it can or cannot engage.

    Russia has radars in Syria where Israeli F-35s and US F-22s have been operating, and we know their Container system tracked F-35s on the Iran Iraq border too...

    I suspect US bluster about Turkey buying S-400 is to prevent Turkey finding out how vulnerable the F-35s are to S-400 rather than how vulnerable the S-400s are to F-35s...

    I'd say it was definitely worth the US giving the Turks the money for it in payment for that information.

    S-400 is just one piece of the Russian IADS... knowledge regarding Russian S-400s on its own is probably not that much use because it is its use within the entire Russian system that makes the system (S-400 and Russias IADS) so powerful and effective.

    US knowing their S-400's weak spots means Greek/Israeli f-35 more likely to survive them during a bombing.

    Assuming that knowledge offers some weaknesses that can be exploited... hell Turkey should realise such information would be used against them and they could get the Russians to mix up a batch of false information they can pass on to the US so they get the money anyway...

    Russian S-400 are also better integrated. OTH radars will see f-35s coming way before S-400. Then Nebo will see them then S-400 and shorter range systems will see their munitions...

    Exactly... the first radar that HATO need to bypass in a sneak attack on any part of Russia will never be an S-400 battery.... their OTH-B radars of all types see much deeper into international air space...

    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:47 pm

    Isos wrote: US knowing their S-400's weak spots means Greek/Israeli f-35 more likely to survive them during a bombing.
    Biggest challenge for fighter pilots is anti aircraft artillery. The likes of Pantsir, Skyshield etc. Missiles can be dodged by most modern day fighter aircraft. Not easy to dodge bullets.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:16 pm

    jhelb wrote:
    Isos wrote: US knowing their S-400's weak spots means Greek/Israeli f-35 more likely to survive them during a bombing.
    Biggest challenge for fighter pilots is anti aircraft artillery. The likes of Pantsir, Skyshield etc. Missiles can be dodged by most modern day fighter aircraft. Not easy to dodge bullets.

    SAM missiles can't be dodged by fighters when they're being intercepted like you see in typically inaccurate Hollywood films. Rolling Eyes All fighters jets (outside of ECM defensive suites) can do is to out fly them and take erratic flight paths and fly outside their range envelope.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:48 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:SAM missiles can't be dodged by fighters when they're being intercepted like you see in typically inaccurate Hollywood films. Rolling Eyes All fighters jets (outside of ECM defensive suites) can do is to out fly them and take erratic flight paths and fly outside their range envelope.

    Of course, not to say that many SAMs are in fact faster than bullets...

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:18 am

    https://twitter.com/humeyra_pamuk/status/1337093363577851908

    SCOOP - The United States is poised to impose CAATSA sanctions on #Turkey over its purchase of #Russian S-400s. The announcement can come any day, and it will target #Turkey's Presidency of Defence Industries, its head president. From me @phildstewart
    Story on @Reuters wire

    This is very good for Russia. It will force Turkey to the dark side. The CAATSA club will keep getting bigger.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:43 pm

    Not sure what this means. Pro Turkish poster.

    MiddleEastWatch
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    ·
    30 Dec 2020
    Turkish Foreign Minister:
    There is an agreement to form a joint working group with the United States on the Russian S400 missile system.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:02 am

    Except of course that Turkey does not have any Russian S-400s and only has a fraction of the support equipment that goes into making it a capable system...
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:21 am

    JohninMK wrote:Not sure what this means. Pro Turkish poster.

    MiddleEastWatch
    @MiddleEastWatc1
    ·
    30 Dec 2020
    Turkish Foreign Minister:
    There is an agreement to form a joint working group with the United States on the Russian S400 missile system.

    If the Turks are that idiotic, all it means is that Russia doesn't have to deliver any more missiles and or any other services, while keeping the money. No consistent supply of missiles, they'll become glorified lawn gnomes.

    Even VVP said they would sell to the US if they were willing to buy, meaning the versions they would sell to NATO members are so radically different to domestic versions that it wouldn't even matter! Wink
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:47 am


    Any S-400 sold for export is such a monkey version that it probably has banana refrigerator somewhere in the cabin

    So whatever Turks do with it is hardly a concern, cat was out of the bag the moment China got theirs (or whoever bought it first, forgot who it was)

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    calripson

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    Post  calripson Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:38 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Any S-400 sold for export is such a monkey version that it probably has banana refrigerator somewhere in the cabin

    So whatever Turks do with it is hardly a concern, cat was out of the bag the moment China got theirs (or whoever bought it first, forgot who it was)


    Hopefully. You can guarantee with 100% probability that every component of any export product sold to Turkey will be thoroughly examined by NATO.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:55 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Any S-400 sold for export is such a monkey version that it probably has banana refrigerator somewhere in the cabin

    So whatever Turks do with it is hardly a concern, cat was out of the bag the moment China got theirs (or whoever bought it first, forgot who it was)


    I think they gave some numbers about one of the radars something like 260km against an f-16 for turkish version or export version and more than 400 for russian version.

    For that matter I would take Buks over S-400 any day. For the same price you can have 10 systems. One or two S-400 are useless against well armed countries when you don't have pantsir/tor and other L band radars to use with it.

    Even worse turks will try to us it with their homemade systems.


    Hopefully. You can guarantee with 100% probability that every component of any export product sold to Turkey will be thoroughly examined by NATO.

    Not really. Hardware is the same as on other state of art systems like patriot with PESA radars and electronics comparable to western systems.

    What really matters is the softwares and even turks don't have them.

    Moreover Erdogan bought them to protect himself from NATO. Against russia they are useless. He has no reason to let NATO touch them and give the specs to Greece or Egypt.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:20 am

    I think they gave some numbers about one of the radars something like 260km against an f-16 for turkish version or export version and more than 400 for russian version.

    Plus all the secret support equipment that the Russians will use with their S-400 batteries that are not for sale that make them much more effective than they would be on their own....

    For that matter I would take Buks over S-400 any day. For the same price you can have 10 systems. One or two S-400 are useless against well armed countries when you don't have pantsir/tor and other L band radars to use with it.

    If you think of it like transport planes... it is the difference between having 5 An-124s and 100 Il-476s...

    There are some jobs the Il-476 simply can't do that an An-124 can, but most of the time the An-124 is just too big and heavy and expensive to use for most targets... it would be massive overkill against cruise missiles and drones...

    Larger numbers of smaller systems makes more sense if you can't have both.

    BTW Slovakia has had SA-10 SAMs for quite some time yet Syrian S-300s seem to still represent a serious problem for western air forces... for big systems like S-400 what they provide is long range high quality radar coverage of a very large volume of airspace... with a missile range of up to 400km you could probably cover all of New Zealands air space with 5-6 batteries... especially if you have a few container systems to see beyond mountain ranges...

    The money generated from these sales is where these weapon makers get their best profit margins, so this is pouring money into SAM development for the future...
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:52 am

    Well the S-400 is a heavy system to deploy and is very limited by the number of missiles. Send 24 drones on it and it will use all its stock of missiles then just a random bomber will take it out. Turks would need 4-6 tors and 1 Nebo radar with it to have a decent AD coverage/protection.

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