Russian Naval Shipbuilding Industry: News

When it is completed. Zvezda wont be completed till 2018. So there are still a few more years to go.

what i meant unlike subs and frigates outfitting of carriers and cruisers must be done outside of buildings in the open, and crimea has prolonged and drier summer.
werent they constructing big new port for black fleet just across at novorosysk   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiysk  , when first orange revolution happened and problems with ukraine occured for lease of sevastopol??
So there, you can stop that and poore funds and manpower and upgrade zaliv.

here is google view of zaliv (eng: bay) in Kerch   http://www.panoramio.com/map/#lt=45.259014&ln=36.420085&z=4&k=2&a=1&tab=1&pl=all
and zvezda (eng: star) in Bolshoy Kamen           http://www.panoramio.com/map/#lt=43.119201&ln=132.339839&z=4&k=2&a=1&tab=1&pl=all

with some pictures. just zoom in and out.

Russia will not build real aircraft carriers in Black sea shipyards, because real carriers are not allowed to sail through Bosporus. I think In Zvazda shipyard they will be for Pacific fleet and one big shipyard in the north or Baltic for Northern fleet.

medo wrote:Russia will not build real aircraft carriers in Black sea shipyards, because real carriers are not allowed to sail through Bosporus. I think In Zvazda shipyard they will be for Pacific fleet and one big shipyard in the north or Baltic for Northern fleet.

Carriers and nuclear powered ships. Unless they build sections there and haul them somewhere for assembly, that maybe.

Militarov wrote:

medo wrote:Russia will not build real aircraft carriers in Black sea shipyards, because real carriers are not allowed to sail through Bosporus. I think In Zvazda shipyard they will be for Pacific fleet and one big shipyard in the north or Baltic for Northern fleet.

Carriers and nuclear powered ships. Unless they build sections there and haul them somewhere for assembly, that maybe.

yeah i think they can float it and tow it without power -like chinese did with casino carrier- power at shaft is 200.000hp for kuznetsov (150 MW ) and some other powersources, and that icebreaker reactor mentioned is perfect at 170MW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK-150_reactor
so float it out and put reactor module in st. petersburg or somewhere. remember in nuclear-electric generation you can put it anywhere on ship.

Rmf wrote:

Militarov wrote:

medo wrote:Russia will not build real aircraft carriers in Black sea shipyards, because real carriers are not allowed to sail through Bosporus. I think In Zvazda shipyard they will be for Pacific fleet and one big shipyard in the north or Baltic for Northern fleet.

Carriers and nuclear powered ships. Unless they build sections there and haul them somewhere for assembly, that maybe.

yeah i think they can float it and tow it without power -like chinese did with casino carrier- power at shaft is 200.000hp for kuznetsov (150 MW ) and some other powersources, and that icebreaker reactor mentioned is perfect at 170MW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK-150_reactor
so float it out and put reactor module in st. petersburg or somewhere. remember in nuclear-electric generation you can put it anywhere on ship.

No i mean they could build sections somewhere on Crimea and then tow them to Zvezda or Sevmash and assemble them there with sections built there, like they did with Mistral, half of it was built in France, half in Russia. You just tow pieces to one shipyard and assemble them there.

towing to admiralty in st petersburg is much closer then far east.

that black see nuclear ban is problematic ,means zaliv cant even build new nuclear destroyers.... back to building panamax tankers then, it can take some work from zvezda while they are busy building carriers.
i guess they could finish carrier 90% but leave a hole in the deck for reactor unit with generator - nuclear-electric- , to be put down into ship in st. petersburg , simmilar to nuclear submarines.
http://defense-update.com/images_large3/varyag_dalian.jpg

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

GarryB wrote:

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

Shipyards in Russia are in state in which they are atm exacly coz of thing you just said. They simply did not learn how to work on free market, they always lived on state orders, when they slowed and ceased they died out. Its not like Russia is ordering 10 major sized ships each year for its navy like US does, even that wouldnt make them solvent.

So what Russia does is they dig out ores, sell half product to Japan, Japan makes high quality construction AB steel from it and sell it to Korea, Korea builds ship and then Russians buy that ship for Lukoil. Instead of investing those wasted hundreds of millions between ore and ship in own steelworks and shipyards. And this is true, you can say its not.

Dont tell me you would not like to see one Japan or UK ordering large oilers, TNG carriers or cruise ships from Russian shipyards? You would, however that will never happen if they do what you just said, building military ships that take 10 years to be finished like that Gren disaster.

GarryB wrote:

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

It's irrelevant what the Russian military wants, they have no say in Russia's economic policies/planning and can only post requirements and make orders.

Yes, shipyards are part of the military-industrial complex, therefore they are strategic in nature. However, the Russian government has specified that it wants defence companies to start moving to a dual-use product model, and start developing products for the civilian market that will be competitive on the international market.
This has to be accomplished by the year 2020; or rather for tangible results to start appearing by then - as that is the year that the current military procurement plan will end.
Military orders after that will of course continue but they will be considerably smaller in volume as compared to today, therefore it is imperative for the military-industrial complex to secure civilian customers both domestic and foreign, in order to retain their industrial capacities and expertise, and not shrivel up once the defence orders start to dry up.

Militarov wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

Shipyards in Russia are in state in which they are atm exacly coz of thing you just said. They simply did not learn how to work on free market, they always lived on state orders, when they slowed and ceased they died out. Its not like Russia is ordering 10 major sized ships each year for its navy like US does, even that wouldnt make them solvent.

So what Russia does is they dig out ores, sell half product to Japan, Japan makes high quality construction AB steel from it and sell it to Korea, Korea builds ship and then Russians buy that ship for Lukoil. Instead of investing those wasted hundreds of millions between ore and ship in own steelworks and shipyards. And this is true, you can say its not.

Dont tell me you would not like to see one Japan or UK ordering large oilers, TNG carriers or cruise ships from Russian shipyards? You would, however that will never happen if they do what you just said, building military ships that take 10 years to be finished like that Gren disaster.

I don't disagree with your overall critique, however your information is out of date.

Russian shipyards have been reviving now over the past 5 years, and largely thanks to a swelling of state orders from the MoD, as well as orders from large state-conglomerates such as Gazprom, and military export and some civilian export orders too.

While you may think that state orders are a sign of bad things, it was neccessery for the revival of Russian shipyards from their extremely dilapidated state, on average, for investment into modernization and the training of new cadres.
Now that this process is well underway, Russian shipyards are seeing more civilian orders too, and can gradually break into the global market.

flamming_python wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

It's irrelevant what the Russian military wants, they have no say in Russia's economic policies/planning and can only post requirements and make orders.

Yes, shipyards are part of the military-industrial complex, therefore they are strategic in nature. However, the Russian government has specified that it wants defence companies to start moving to a dual-use product model, and start developing products for the civilian market that will be competitive on the international market.
This has to be accomplished by the year 2020; or rather for tangible results to start appearing by then - as that is the year that the current military procurement plan will end.
Military orders after that will of course continue but they will be considerably smaller in volume as compared to today, therefore it is imperative for the military-industrial complex to secure civilian customers both domestic and foreign, in order to retain their industrial capacities and expertise, and not shrivel up once the defence orders start to dry up.

Militarov wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

Shipyards in Russia are in state in which they are atm exacly coz of thing you just said. They simply did not learn how to work on free market, they always lived on state orders, when they slowed and ceased they died out. Its not like Russia is ordering 10 major sized ships each year for its navy like US does, even that wouldnt make them solvent.

So what Russia does is they dig out ores, sell half product to Japan, Japan makes high quality construction AB steel from it and sell it to Korea, Korea builds ship and then Russians buy that ship for Lukoil. Instead of investing those wasted hundreds of millions between ore and ship in own steelworks and shipyards. And this is true, you can say its not.

Dont tell me you would not like to see one Japan or UK ordering large oilers, TNG carriers or cruise ships from Russian shipyards? You would, however that will never happen if they do what you just said, building military ships that take 10 years to be finished like that Gren disaster.

I don't disagree with your overall critique, however your information is out of date.

Russian shipyards have been reviving now over the past 5 years, and largely thanks to a swelling of state orders from the MoD, as well as orders from large state-conglomerates such as Gazprom, and military export and some civilian export orders too.

While you may think that state orders are a sign of bad things, it was neccessery for the revival of Russian shipyards from their extremely dilapidated state, on average, for investment into modernization and the training of new cadres.
Now that this process is well underway, Russian shipyards are seeing more civilian orders too, and can gradually break into the global market.

Actually you have dozen of shipyards that are literally abandoned in Russia, i am not talking about those few that are currently in favor of MoD so they got few orders, i am talking about overall shipbuilding in Russia. I am not saying orders from state are bad, i am saying you cant base your shipbuilding on it, noone does that anywhere else except in North Korea i guess. While shipbuilding did change alot during last decade its still in quite bad shape except 2-3 biggest shipyards.

I love how i get downvoted every time i say the truth on this forum. On the MESS you get downvoted for pointing good stuff about Russia, here you get it for noticing issues in Russia.

Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

Exacly, there were none, you are missing the point. Even ships that WERE oredered by Russian civilian sector during 90s and early 2000s were ordered abroad not from Russian shipyards, and what you just said is what i am talking about here, why USSR shipbuilding failed, they were never trying to get competitive on civilian market they were just making military ships and occasionally some oilers, tugs and similar. Orders from state were significant so they were like "noone cares if we build ships same way last 40 years, state shall order anyways coz they got no choice", and that is why they died out after USSR collapsed, if they tried to spend some money on shipbuilding research beside strictly military applications they might have survived 90s. I am talking here about foreign orders in Russian shipyards, there are barely any even today, and if shipyards were doing something on becoming competitive they wouldnt be in situation they were and sadly some still are.

I know coz it was same in Yugoslavia post 1991. our companies died out coz of lack of research and when import bans ceased to exist they simply died out. Even companies that had good high quality products died out coz noone wanted to buy domestic stuff, they were rather buying Chinese, Turkish and Italian stuff. I lived though crash of industry here, and shipyards too, my father worked as engineer in one huge company that was producing tooling machines, today most of it was converted into bisquit/sweets production...

Militarov wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

Exacly, there were none, you are missing the point. Even ships that WERE oredered by Russian civilian sector during 90s and early 2000s were ordered abroad not from Russian shipyards, and what you just said is what i am talking about here, why USSR shipbuilding failed, they were never trying to get competitive on civilian market they were just making military ships and occasionally some oilers, tugs and similar. Orders from state were significant so they were like "noone cares if we build ships same way last 40 years, state shall order anyways coz they got no choice", and that is why they died out after USSR collapsed, if they tried to spend some money on shipbuilding research beside strictly military applications they might have survived 90s. I am talking here about foreign orders in Russian shipyards, there are barely any even today, and if shipyards were doing something on becoming competitive they wouldnt be in situation they were and sadly some still are.

I know coz it was same in Yugoslavia post 1991. our companies died out coz of lack of research and when import bans ceased to exist they simply died out. Even companies that had good high quality products died out coz noone wanted to buy domestic stuff, they were rather buying Chinese, Turkish and Italian stuff. I lived though crash of industry here, and shipyards too, my father worked as engineer in one huge company that was producing tooling machines, today most of it was converted into bisquit/sweets production...

In order to get non-state orders, shipyards need to be competitive.
In order to be competitive, investments are necessary.
No orders, no investments.
In the end, it is either state orders or de-industrialisation.

The positive difference between now and the Soviet-era is that domestic shipyards cannot rely on the same protection from foreign competition, but without investments (from the state) it won't help the shipyards to get better.

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Militarov wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

Exacly, there were none, you are missing the point. Even ships that WERE oredered by Russian civilian sector during 90s and early 2000s were ordered abroad not from Russian shipyards, and what you just said is what i am talking about here, why USSR shipbuilding failed, they were never trying to get competitive on civilian market they were just making military ships and occasionally some oilers, tugs and similar. Orders from state were significant so they were like "noone cares if we build ships same way last 40 years, state shall order anyways coz they got no choice", and that is why they died out after USSR collapsed, if they tried to spend some money on shipbuilding research beside strictly military applications they might have survived 90s. I am talking here about foreign orders in Russian shipyards, there are barely any even today, and if shipyards were doing something on becoming competitive they wouldnt be in situation they were and sadly some still are.

I know coz it was same in Yugoslavia post 1991. our companies died out coz of lack of research and when import bans ceased to exist they simply died out. Even companies that had good high quality products died out coz noone wanted to buy domestic stuff, they were rather buying Chinese, Turkish and Italian stuff. I lived though crash of industry here, and shipyards too, my father worked as engineer in one huge company that was producing tooling machines, today most of it was converted into bisquit/sweets production...

In order to get non-state orders, shipyards need to be competitive.
In order to be competitive, investments are necessary.
No orders, no investments.
In the end, it is either state orders or de-industrialisation.

The positive difference between now and the Soviet-era is that domestic shipyards cannot rely on the same protection from foreign competition, but without investments (from the state) it won't help the shipyards to get better.

Actually ideal solution would be state orders + external investments (state, loans doesnt rly matter) + reinvesting profit, also integrating smaller shipyards, abandoned ones, less capable ones etc with big shipyards is great idea, they can deal with smaller ships or building sections etc and you this way free main shipyard faster for additional orders and even more important you save jobs for people.

Also important aspect of shipbuilding in Russia is steel, certain companies that have technology to produce marine grade construction AB steel are refusing often to cooperate coz apparently amounts ordered are not big enough to be economical for them to start production of it, and those that would deliver even those amounts lack technology or resources. So some wider investments are required to revive shipbuilding, here you can add marine tooling machines, electronics used for ships etc even paints and sealing materials. My father would take few cans of some special waterproof sealing material (i belive it was some kind of silicone rubber that his company was obtaining from Germany) and gift it to engineers in Russia when he was visiting them on business trips back in 80s coz they lacked it there, so its not that simple as one might think.

Militarov wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

It's irrelevant what the Russian military wants, they have no say in Russia's economic policies/planning and can only post requirements and make orders.

Yes, shipyards are part of the military-industrial complex, therefore they are strategic in nature. However, the Russian government has specified that it wants defence companies to start moving to a dual-use product model, and start developing products for the civilian market that will be competitive on the international market.
This has to be accomplished by the year 2020; or rather for tangible results to start appearing by then - as that is the year that the current military procurement plan will end.
Military orders after that will of course continue but they will be considerably smaller in volume as compared to today, therefore it is imperative for the military-industrial complex to secure civilian customers both domestic and foreign, in order to retain their industrial capacities and expertise, and not shrivel up once the defence orders start to dry up.

Militarov wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

Shipyards in Russia are in state in which they are atm exacly coz of thing you just said. They simply did not learn how to work on free market, they always lived on state orders, when they slowed and ceased they died out. Its not like Russia is ordering 10 major sized ships each year for its navy like US does, even that wouldnt make them solvent.

So what Russia does is they dig out ores, sell half product to Japan, Japan makes high quality construction AB steel from it and sell it to Korea, Korea builds ship and then Russians buy that ship for Lukoil. Instead of investing those wasted hundreds of millions between ore and ship in own steelworks and shipyards. And this is true, you can say its not.

Dont tell me you would not like to see one Japan or UK ordering large oilers, TNG carriers or cruise ships from Russian shipyards? You would, however that will never happen if they do what you just said, building military ships that take 10 years to be finished like that Gren disaster.

I don't disagree with your overall critique, however your information is out of date.

Russian shipyards have been reviving now over the past 5 years, and largely thanks to a swelling of state orders from the MoD, as well as orders from large state-conglomerates such as Gazprom, and military export and some civilian export orders too.

While you may think that state orders are a sign of bad things, it was neccessery for the revival of Russian shipyards from their extremely dilapidated state, on average, for investment into modernization and the training of new cadres.
Now that this process is well underway, Russian shipyards are seeing more civilian orders too, and can gradually break into the global market.

Actually you have dozen of shipyards that are literally abandoned in Russia, i am not talking about those few that are currently in favor of MoD so they got few orders, i am talking about overall shipbuilding in Russia. I am not saying orders from state are bad, i am saying you cant base your shipbuilding on it, noone does that anywhere else except in North Korea i guess. While shipbuilding did change alot during last decade its still in quite bad shape except 2-3 biggest shipyards.

I love how i get downvoted every time i say the truth on this forum. On the MESS you get downvoted for pointing good stuff about Russia, here you get it for noticing issues in Russia.

Which Russian shipyards are not getting any orders or not working?  If you can provide that information, then it would help.  Reason why you are downvoted is not for telling truth or not, it is because there isn't anyway to verify your information.  As far as we are all aware, Russian shipyards are all getting orders, even Zvezda and Admirality.

At that, many smaller shipyards are getting plenty orders in transport vessels.

http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/?id=135

Plenty news. So please provide your data. I have mine.

Militarov wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Militarov wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

Exacly, there were none, you are missing the point. Even ships that WERE oredered by Russian civilian sector during 90s and early 2000s were ordered abroad not from Russian shipyards, and what you just said is what i am talking about here, why USSR shipbuilding failed, they were never trying to get competitive on civilian market they were just making military ships and occasionally some oilers, tugs and similar. Orders from state were significant so they were like "noone cares if we build ships same way last 40 years, state shall order anyways coz they got no choice", and that is why they died out after USSR collapsed, if they tried to spend some money on shipbuilding research beside strictly military applications they might have survived 90s. I am talking here about foreign orders in Russian shipyards, there are barely any even today, and if shipyards were doing something on becoming competitive they wouldnt be in situation they were and sadly some still are.

I know coz it was same in Yugoslavia post 1991. our companies died out coz of lack of research and when import bans ceased to exist they simply died out. Even companies that had good high quality products died out coz noone wanted to buy domestic stuff, they were rather buying Chinese, Turkish and Italian stuff. I lived though crash of industry here, and shipyards too, my father worked as engineer in one huge company that was producing tooling machines, today most of it was converted into bisquit/sweets production...

In order to get non-state orders, shipyards need to be competitive.
In order to be competitive, investments are necessary.
No orders, no investments.
In the end, it is either state orders or de-industrialisation.

The positive difference between now and the Soviet-era is that domestic shipyards cannot rely on the same protection from foreign competition, but without investments (from the state) it won't help the shipyards to get better.

Actually ideal solution would be state orders + external investments (state, loans doesnt rly matter) + reinvesting profit, also integrating smaller shipyards, abandoned ones, less capable ones etc with big shipyards is great idea, they can deal with smaller ships or building sections etc and you this way free main shipyard faster for additional orders and even more important you save jobs for people.

Also important aspect of shipbuilding in Russia is steel, certain companies that have technology to produce marine grade construction AB steel are refusing often to cooperate coz apparently amounts ordered are not big enough to be economical for them to start production of it, and those that would deliver even those amounts lack technology or resources. So some wider investments are required to revive shipbuilding, here you can add marine tooling machines, electronics used for ships etc even paints and sealing materials. My father would take few cans of some special waterproof sealing material (i belive it was some kind of silicone rubber that his company was obtaining from Germany) and gift it to engineers in Russia when he was visiting them on business trips back in 80s coz they lacked it there, so its not that simple as one might think.

None of that makes sense.  Then how does Russia get all the steel used for their own ships?  They make plenty of ships as it is, so they get it from thin air?

Also, Shipbuilding in Russia isnt separated anymore of really different industries, but of USC (United Shipbuilding Corporation).

There are indeed troubles in shipbuilding, but nothing like in the past.  Add to that, they were very quick in import substitution.  These days, Russian industries are purchasing new ships in Russia, as Rosneft (I already posted much earlier) have done.  Gazprom I believe also owns or partially has ownership in one of the smaller shipyards in Russia.  Other shipyards have moved onto other types of production like parts and platforms for oil and gas companies.

Russia has a lot of Soviet leftovers that is for sure.  I would say that they need to maybe even close down some that are underperforming altogether.

Maybe merge some other shipyards together so they can streamline production.

As for government orders, no, Russia isn't the only one who does this.  I recall quite well of S.Korea having to use politics in order to get their industries off the ground.  For instance, shipyards and what not were put under new management of large conglomerates (Hyundai, Daewoo, etc) and were given a lot of tax exemptions and benefits in order to survive and thrive.

Edit: BTW, I am not trying to be hostile or rude. Just genuinely curious. I have been watching about shipbuilding for quite sometime through sdelanounas and as the situation could be better, it nearly isn't as bad as you portray it. Russia has been building full composite vessels as evident in latest corvettes/frigates and newer icebreakers as an example.

sepheronx wrote:

Militarov wrote:

flamming_python wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

It's irrelevant what the Russian military wants, they have no say in Russia's economic policies/planning and can only post requirements and make orders.

Yes, shipyards are part of the military-industrial complex, therefore they are strategic in nature. However, the Russian government has specified that it wants defence companies to start moving to a dual-use product model, and start developing products for the civilian market that will be competitive on the international market.
This has to be accomplished by the year 2020; or rather for tangible results to start appearing by then - as that is the year that the current military procurement plan will end.
Military orders after that will of course continue but they will be considerably smaller in volume as compared to today, therefore it is imperative for the military-industrial complex to secure civilian customers both domestic and foreign, in order to retain their industrial capacities and expertise, and not shrivel up once the defence orders start to dry up.

Militarov wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

Shipyards in Russia are in state in which they are atm exacly coz of thing you just said. They simply did not learn how to work on free market, they always lived on state orders, when they slowed and ceased they died out. Its not like Russia is ordering 10 major sized ships each year for its navy like US does, even that wouldnt make them solvent.

So what Russia does is they dig out ores, sell half product to Japan, Japan makes high quality construction AB steel from it and sell it to Korea, Korea builds ship and then Russians buy that ship for Lukoil. Instead of investing those wasted hundreds of millions between ore and ship in own steelworks and shipyards. And this is true, you can say its not.

Dont tell me you would not like to see one Japan or UK ordering large oilers, TNG carriers or cruise ships from Russian shipyards? You would, however that will never happen if they do what you just said, building military ships that take 10 years to be finished like that Gren disaster.

I don't disagree with your overall critique, however your information is out of date.

Russian shipyards have been reviving now over the past 5 years, and largely thanks to a swelling of state orders from the MoD, as well as orders from large state-conglomerates such as Gazprom, and military export and some civilian export orders too.

While you may think that state orders are a sign of bad things, it was neccessery for the revival of Russian shipyards from their extremely dilapidated state, on average, for investment into modernization and the training of new cadres.
Now that this process is well underway, Russian shipyards are seeing more civilian orders too, and can gradually break into the global market.

Actually you have dozen of shipyards that are literally abandoned in Russia, i am not talking about those few that are currently in favor of MoD so they got few orders, i am talking about overall shipbuilding in Russia. I am not saying orders from state are bad, i am saying you cant base your shipbuilding on it, noone does that anywhere else except in North Korea i guess. While shipbuilding did change alot during last decade its still in quite bad shape except 2-3 biggest shipyards.

I love how i get downvoted every time i say the truth on this forum. On the MESS you get downvoted for pointing good stuff about Russia, here you get it for noticing issues in Russia.

Which Russian shipyards are not getting any orders or not working?  If you can provide that information, then it would help.  Reason why you are downvoted is not for telling truth or not, it is because there isn't anyway to verify your information.  As far as we are all aware, Russian shipyards are all getting orders, even Zvezda and Admirality.

Militarov wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Militarov wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

Exacly, there were none, you are missing the point. Even ships that WERE oredered by Russian civilian sector during 90s and early 2000s were ordered abroad not from Russian shipyards, and what you just said is what i am talking about here, why USSR shipbuilding failed, they were never trying to get competitive on civilian market they were just making military ships and occasionally some oilers, tugs and similar. Orders from state were significant so they were like "noone cares if we build ships same way last 40 years, state shall order anyways coz they got no choice", and that is why they died out after USSR collapsed, if they tried to spend some money on shipbuilding research beside strictly military applications they might have survived 90s. I am talking here about foreign orders in Russian shipyards, there are barely any even today, and if shipyards were doing something on becoming competitive they wouldnt be in situation they were and sadly some still are.

I know coz it was same in Yugoslavia post 1991. our companies died out coz of lack of research and when import bans ceased to exist they simply died out. Even companies that had good high quality products died out coz noone wanted to buy domestic stuff, they were rather buying Chinese, Turkish and Italian stuff. I lived though crash of industry here, and shipyards too, my father worked as engineer in one huge company that was producing tooling machines, today most of it was converted into bisquit/sweets production...

In order to get non-state orders, shipyards need to be competitive.
In order to be competitive, investments are necessary.
No orders, no investments.
In the end, it is either state orders or de-industrialisation.

The positive difference between now and the Soviet-era is that domestic shipyards cannot rely on the same protection from foreign competition, but without investments (from the state) it won't help the shipyards to get better.

Actually ideal solution would be state orders + external investments (state, loans doesnt rly matter) + reinvesting profit, also integrating smaller shipyards, abandoned ones, less capable ones etc with big shipyards is great idea, they can deal with smaller ships or building sections etc and you this way free main shipyard faster for additional orders and even more important you save jobs for people.

Also important aspect of shipbuilding in Russia is steel, certain companies that have technology to produce marine grade construction AB steel are refusing often to cooperate coz apparently amounts ordered are not big enough to be economical for them to start production of it, and those that would deliver even those amounts lack technology or resources. So some wider investments are required to revive shipbuilding, here you can add marine tooling machines, electronics used for ships etc even paints and sealing materials. My father would take few cans of some special waterproof sealing material (i belive it was some kind of silicone rubber that his company was obtaining from Germany) and gift it to engineers in Russia when he was visiting them on business trips back in 80s coz they lacked it there, so its not that simple as one might think.

None of that makes sense.  Then how does Russia get all the steel used for their own ships?  They make plenty of ships as it is, so they get it from thin air?

Samsung Heavy Industries is main steel supplier for specialised platforms, some of it is even being delivered already cut, they produce almost 8% of worlds construction steel actually after all, they are logical source. http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/168050/shi-cuts-steel-for-scfs-third-arctic-shuttle-tanker/ is just one of the newest orders around.

How are they getting it? Simply, by paying more to Magnitogorsk Iron Works to "convince" them its in their best interest to deliver it, even then they had loses in 2013. idk about 2014. Take note i am talking about specialised marine grade steels, there is plenty of construction steels used in shipbuilding, not all are same. Less modern steels are not an issue to be produced in Russia, however some abit more expencive/rare/harder to produce types seems to be an issue. Now i am trying to find article

See now what happened when they saw they are losing market: http://www.steeltimesint.com/news/view/steel-for-shipbuilding-is-big-business-for-mmk tho i assume sanctions helped this partially coz UK and Sweden now refuses to supply special steels that could be used for military purposes to Russia.

Also i assume you are aware of Indian desperate tries to order ABA marine steel for their carrier from Russia which failed and then they obtained somewhat of a licence for it, i am not sure how engineers refer to it, my father would know better. At the end Indians set their own production of it. One of Boreis i belive was delayed coz of lack of steel and refusal of domestic producer to deliver material due to low price MoD offered, i belive article was in Russian so i rly cant seem to find it, someone more fluent in Russian shouldnt have an issue with it.

By my count Russia has around 30 sizeable shipyards capable of making decently sized ships, are you telling me they all got orders in last decade and finished at least 1 ship each year? Where are those ships? All i see is 3-4 shipyards repeating on MoD orders, rest are it seems getting some overhauls at the best or making some smaller tugs or floating cranes or harbor auxilary ships/pontons. I am simply now making myself sound like parrot but some Asian shipyards made more ships in 2014. than Russia did in over decade. Things truly are getting better, thanks God they are, but you guys kinda totally overestimate the improvements by 10 fold.

thanks for the link on the marine grade steel maker.  Are they the only marine grade steelmaker in Russia?  Maybe reason for their lack of trade with India over the steel is the fact that now orders are magnitude greater? It mentions the commissioning of a new plant in 2009 so I imagine this is an addition to what they already have?  

Do you happen to know who makes the composite structure for the Goshkovs and other new ships in Russia?  I imagine that will be the big one for the future for all ship developments.

Add to that, India will say one thing, but we need to remember (I know this through my wife whom is from India), everything in India has to be made in India now.  Or at least a huge portion of it.  And India was also a major pain in dealing with cause they will nickle and dime everything.  Russia didn't have problems in supplying elsewhere but to some countries like India so it is somewhat safe to assume that has a part of it.  Apparently Russia can be hard to bargain with too (not surprising really).

30 shipyards is ridiculous amount for Russia.  At the time of the Soviet union, I imagine with all the amount of shipyards were needed for building small ships for border patrol and navy.  There are a few shipyards that rely on building transport ships for rivers and seas.  Ones for Oceans and shipyards for platforms and floating cranes.  Only a few seem to get orders for larger ships and such.  Tatarstan for instance builds specific ships for the Caspian sea.  I imagine in the future, the number will shrink to a few large shipyards and a bunch of smaller shipyards for mostly civil orders and military orders of specific use (transport).  Rest will be like Sevmash, Admirality (SP?), Vyborg, and Zvezda.

And uh, now they got the one in Crimea.  More shipyards definitely than what they need.  Wonders of Soviet times I suppose.

Dunno about your last statement. Kinda odd since Russia had built quite a few submarines, surface ships like transport and navy, and icebreakers. Most asian shipyards do not. So I really question that.

sepheronx wrote:thanks for the link on the marine grade steel maker.  Are they the only marine grade steelmaker in Russia?  Maybe reason for their lack of trade with India over the steel is the fact that now orders are magnitude greater? It mentions the commissioning of a new plant in 2009 so I imagine this is an addition to what they already have?  

Do you happen to know who makes the composite structure for the Goshkovs and other new ships in Russia?  I imagine that will be the big one for the future for all ship developments.

Add to that, India will say one thing, but we need to remember (I know this through my wife whom is from India), everything in India has to be made in India now.  Or at least a huge portion of it.  And India was also a major pain in dealing with cause they will nickle and dime everything.  Russia didn't have problems in supplying elsewhere but to some countries like India so it is somewhat safe to assume that has a part of it.  Apparently Russia can be hard to bargain with too (not surprising really).

30 shipyards is ridiculous amount for Russia.  At the time of the Soviet union, I imagine with all the amount of shipyards were needed for building small ships for border patrol and navy.  There are a few shipyards that rely on building transport ships for rivers and seas.  Ones for Oceans and shipyards for platforms and floating cranes.  Only a few seem to get orders for larger ships and such.  Tatarstan for instance builds specific ships for the Caspian sea.  I imagine in the future, the number will shrink to a few large shipyards and a bunch of smaller shipyards for mostly civil orders and military orders of specific use (transport).  Rest will be like Sevmash, Admirality (SP?), Vyborg, and Zvezda.

And uh, now they got the one in Crimea.  More shipyards definitely than what they need.  Wonders of Soviet times I suppose.

Dunno about your last statement.  Kinda odd since Russia had built quite a few submarines, surface ships like transport and navy, and icebreakers.  Most asian shipyards do not.  So I really question that.

I for sure know Severstal producing AK marine steel which is special cold resistant steel about http://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/114409/severstals-cherepovets-mill-doubles-steel-shipments-to-shipbuilders-russia/ and RM Steel http://www.rm-steel.com/en/.

http://lipetsk.nlmk.com/StandardPage____1091.aspx Novolipetsk is known for obtaining certificate for some AB steels but are they producing it i would not know.

When its about Gorshkov i am not sure who produced hull sections and materials for hull sections that are covered or completely made out of carbon, however i am aware who is working on developing of such solutions for shipbuilding http://www.crism-prometey.ru/eng/starteng.htm. I mean major composite producing company to my knowledge started working in 2011. in Russia Prepreg-SKM. Could be that "raw" carbon was imported and then shaped on spot by specifications etc provided by Prometey.

However this looks very promising when its about new composite materials and carbon fiber: http://www.materialstoday.com/carbon-fiber/news/new-carbon-fiber-production-plant-in-russia/

Yes India has that "Buy and produce in India" politic which i really like and admire, even tho they often get stuck that way, taking decade to absorb new technologies...sometimes you wonder.

"The Geoje Shipyard in particular, SHI's largest shipyard in South Korea, boasts the highest dock turnover rate in the world. The largest of the three docks, Dock No. 3, is 640 meters long, 97.5 meters wide, and 13 meters deep. Mostly ultra-large ships are built at this dock, having the world's highest production efficiency with yearly dock turnover rate of 10 and the launch of 30 ships per year" - insane, just, insane.

Trutnev told Putin about the pace of the construction of the shipyard "Zvezda"

Presidential Envoy to the Far Eastern Federal District, noted the slow pace of work on the construction of the plant "Zvezda", which specializes in the repair, refurbishment and modernization of ships and nuclear submarines.

VLADIVOSTOK, November 19 - RIA Novosti, Nadezhda Egorova. RF Presidential Plenipotentiary in the Far Eastern Federal District Yuri Trutnev at the meeting in Vladivostok, said that he was dissatisfied with the pace of construction shipyard "Zvezda" in the Maritime region, as reported by the country's president, Vladimir Putin.

"There are instructed Putin to build a shipbuilding complex, a number of points of order dates from the late 2015 th - 2016. At this time, it is necessary to have to execute it. I have a number of comments to the ministries. They have a little bit of time that the work is done, but most of assignments connected with the actualization of the order relating to the coordination of the work is slow. I'm going about it to make a report to the Prime Minister, the President of Russia. I suggested that the question of creating a shipbuilding industry to review in mid-December on pravkomisii under the leadership of Medvedev " - Trutnev said.

OJSC "Far East Plant" Zvezda "- the leading enterprise on repair of submarines of the Pacific Fleet and the only one in the Far East, specializing in the repair, refurbishing and modernizing ships and nuclear submarines.

On behalf of the President of the Russian consortium of companies "Rosneft" and Gazprombank in the face of the joint venture ZAO "Modern Shipbuilding Technology" (JSC "STS") creates the Far East industrial and shipbuilding cluster on the basis of OAO "Far Eastern Center of Shipbuilding and Ship Repair" (FECSR), the core which will be the new shipbuilding complex "Star" in the town of Bolshoi Kamen.

A very important news: Northern Shipyard (Severnay Verf) has started a massive modernization program



The centerpiece of this program is a brand new dry dock with the length of....400 meters. That means only one thing--aircraft carrier(s). Will the time be right for Russian carriers by 2020-2022? I am not in a position to judge but there never were doubts about Russia's blue water aspirations. We'll see. Judging by the tone of news, most of the programs for Russian Navy seem to be financed in full.

max steel wrote:A very important news: Northern Shipyard (Severnay Verf) has started a massive modernization program



The centerpiece of this program is a brand new dry dock with the length of....400 meters. That means only one thing--aircraft carrier(s). Will the time be right for Russian carriers by 2020-2022? I am not in a position to judge but there never were doubts about Russia's blue water aspirations. We'll see. Judging by the tone of news, most of the programs for Russian Navy seem to be financed in full.

Nope, Mega-Kirovs.

Zivo wrote:

max steel wrote:A very important news: Northern Shipyard (Severnay Verf) has started a massive modernization program



The centerpiece of this program is a brand new dry dock with the length of....400 meters. That means only one thing--aircraft carrier(s). Will the time be right for Russian carriers by 2020-2022? I am not in a position to judge but there never were doubts about Russia's blue water aspirations. We'll see. Judging by the tone of news, most of the programs for Russian Navy seem to be financed in full.

Nope, Mega-Kirovs.

Oh please tell me you're not joking... This would be amazing.

max steel wrote:A very important news: Northern Shipyard (Severnay Verf) has started a massive modernization program



The centerpiece of this program is a brand new dry dock with the length of....400 meters. That means only one thing--aircraft carrier(s). Will the time be right for Russian carriers by 2020-2022? I am not in a position to judge but there never were doubts about Russia's blue water aspirations. We'll see. Judging by the tone of news, most of the programs for Russian Navy seem to be financed in full.

400m would be good start for Russian shipbuilding, however i cant find anywhere that in text, is that from some other source?