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franco wrote:Timid hope. Does the Russian naval aviation have a future?......
So long story short their ASW sensors and aircraft are obsolete dogshit and they are dragging their feet in rectifying it?
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Russian Naval Aviation: News
PapaDragon- Posts : 12790
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Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
So long story short their ASW sensors and aircraft are obsolete dogshit and they are dragging their feet in rectifying it?
miketheterrible- Posts : 7403
Points : 7377
Join date : 2016-11-06
No.
It's just another "is there a future for x this or that in Russian army?" Bullshit you read every year from "experts".
ASW hasn't changed what they have is sufficient for time being. If it still works, use it till someone better comes along.
It's as if people here think they are:
1) more smart than the Russian Mod
2) these "experts" actually matter and know everything in Russian armed forces.
I always laugh at these. These experts are always useless cause they have access only to common knowledge and open sources. Like we do. We are just as much as an expert.
They say Naval aviation is unarmed??? It got some of the most modern equipment in Jets first. So there is clear misinformation.
It's just another "is there a future for x this or that in Russian army?" Bullshit you read every year from "experts".
ASW hasn't changed what they have is sufficient for time being. If it still works, use it till someone better comes along.
It's as if people here think they are:
1) more smart than the Russian Mod
2) these "experts" actually matter and know everything in Russian armed forces.
I always laugh at these. These experts are always useless cause they have access only to common knowledge and open sources. Like we do. We are just as much as an expert.
They say Naval aviation is unarmed??? It got some of the most modern equipment in Jets first. So there is clear misinformation.
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Mir- Posts : 2541
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Join date : 2021-06-10
If there is any truth in this it is beyond comprehension that countering the biggest military threat to Russia - is apparently the most neglected! That I find a bit hard to believe, but it is quite apparent that they are dragging their feet when it comes to replacing old maritime patrol aircraft. However I do agree with the author that it's not the type of aircraft that's important - it is the actual onboard systems that's the most crucial element.
GarryB likes this post
franco
franco- Posts : 5866
Points : 5896
Join date : 2010-08-18
Naval Aviation does need upgrading but so did every other area of the military. Work is ongoing and I'm sure we will see more in the future but other areas needed attention sooner.
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Broski- Posts : 541
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Join date : 2021-07-12
Strategic deterrence (ICBM's & SSBN's) was always going to be prioritized for upgrades and new armaments, followed by the Army, Airforce and soon enough, the Navy.franco wrote:Naval Aviation does need upgrading but so did every other area of the military. Work is ongoing and I'm sure we will see more in the future but other areas needed attention sooner.
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GarryB- Posts : 35771
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
First line:
Next most important bit:
Is that actually a problem though... the aerospace defence forces have rather more experience making planes than the Russian Navy has.
I would think having airforce designed aircraft has been the best thing to happen to the Russian Navy... compare the Yak-38 and Yak-141 with the MiG-33 and Su-33 and MiG-29KR and the potential future Su-57 and that new model MiG carrier aircraft to something the Russian Navy could possibly fund and develop on its own...
Right now that is how it should be, but as they fill out the submarine fleet then surface ships able to operate in Russian waters are the biggest priority at the moment for the surface fleet... once Frigates and Corvettes are cleared for service and serial production of 20 to 30 of each type are starting serial production... then it makes sense to lay down a destroyer design and a cruiser design to move forward with operating beyond Russian waters... all the while expanding the civil maritime fleet too.
Aviation can wait till they have new carriers laid down and should probably be a naval Su-57K and probably a 5th gen stealthy carrier based MiG-35 equivalent as shown in model form at the last MAKS.
Checkmate is a cheap affordable 5th gen numbers aircraft... there is little value in making a carrier based version except for countries with small carriers that want something cheap to operate from them.
No point in building a 80K ton fixed wing carrier with cats if you are going to go cheap on the planes that defend it.
Like buying a Lamborghini and using a beer bottle lid as the badge on the bonnet.
So what the rest of the article basically is complaining about is that the current weapons and equipment are obsolete and also at the same time too expensive to actually use so their experience and testing is not realistic because they don't practise with the real thing often enough to know if it works properly or not.
The Ka-27M is not upgraded to a suitable level because they are focusing funds into the new replacement helicopter called Minoga.
Lots of whining about the new Kasatka system not having a high enough resolution to find quiet subs using obsolete sonobuoys making it worse than the Sea Serpent system they haven't deployed widely yet because of cost despite India getting it 15 years ago.
So they need new modern low frequency sonobuoys and the new Kasatka system and the Minoga helicopters and upgraded air launched torpedoes and new torpedoes for their subs... all of which seem to be on their way so all he is really complaining about is that the Aerospace forces control development and funding of their aircraft... how butt hurt he is to take such a long article to put forward such small concerns.
Agree totally and it is the logical and sensible thing to do, but over the next 20-30 years the focus is going to shift away from the air power and land forces and start to focus on the world access that only the navy can achieve for Russia and its expanding trade partners around the world will require contact and access too... and perhaps some sales of naval vessels as well.
The western equivalent of this article is the sky is falling, the Soviets/Russians/Terrorists have better stuff than we have and we can't dominate them like we want to be able to... so add a few zeroes to the end of the next few years budget for a decade or so so we can catch up.
And it must be emphasized right away that now, after the change in the leadership of the Naval Aviation of the Navy, positive trends have emerged in the real solution of its problems.
Next most important bit:
... the problems of our naval aviation are not really technical, but organizational.
Let's start with the fact that the research organization of naval aviation is included not in the structure of the Navy, but in the VKS (and the relationship between "ship" and "aviation" organizations is an extremely painful issue), and ending with questions of banal funding.
Is that actually a problem though... the aerospace defence forces have rather more experience making planes than the Russian Navy has.
I would think having airforce designed aircraft has been the best thing to happen to the Russian Navy... compare the Yak-38 and Yak-141 with the MiG-33 and Su-33 and MiG-29KR and the potential future Su-57 and that new model MiG carrier aircraft to something the Russian Navy could possibly fund and develop on its own...
The obvious priority of the Navy is submarines (in relation to which there are many questions on various kinds of problems and the effectiveness of spending). A much lower priority is surface ships, and aviation is simply in the role of a stepdaughter.
Right now that is how it should be, but as they fill out the submarine fleet then surface ships able to operate in Russian waters are the biggest priority at the moment for the surface fleet... once Frigates and Corvettes are cleared for service and serial production of 20 to 30 of each type are starting serial production... then it makes sense to lay down a destroyer design and a cruiser design to move forward with operating beyond Russian waters... all the while expanding the civil maritime fleet too.
Aviation can wait till they have new carriers laid down and should probably be a naval Su-57K and probably a 5th gen stealthy carrier based MiG-35 equivalent as shown in model form at the last MAKS.
Checkmate is a cheap affordable 5th gen numbers aircraft... there is little value in making a carrier based version except for countries with small carriers that want something cheap to operate from them.
No point in building a 80K ton fixed wing carrier with cats if you are going to go cheap on the planes that defend it.
Like buying a Lamborghini and using a beer bottle lid as the badge on the bonnet.
So what the rest of the article basically is complaining about is that the current weapons and equipment are obsolete and also at the same time too expensive to actually use so their experience and testing is not realistic because they don't practise with the real thing often enough to know if it works properly or not.
The Ka-27M is not upgraded to a suitable level because they are focusing funds into the new replacement helicopter called Minoga.
Lots of whining about the new Kasatka system not having a high enough resolution to find quiet subs using obsolete sonobuoys making it worse than the Sea Serpent system they haven't deployed widely yet because of cost despite India getting it 15 years ago.
So they need new modern low frequency sonobuoys and the new Kasatka system and the Minoga helicopters and upgraded air launched torpedoes and new torpedoes for their subs... all of which seem to be on their way so all he is really complaining about is that the Aerospace forces control development and funding of their aircraft... how butt hurt he is to take such a long article to put forward such small concerns.
Strategic deterrence (ICBM's & SSBN's) was always going to be prioritized for upgrades and new armaments, followed by the Army, Airforce and soon enough, the Navy.
Agree totally and it is the logical and sensible thing to do, but over the next 20-30 years the focus is going to shift away from the air power and land forces and start to focus on the world access that only the navy can achieve for Russia and its expanding trade partners around the world will require contact and access too... and perhaps some sales of naval vessels as well.
The western equivalent of this article is the sky is falling, the Soviets/Russians/Terrorists have better stuff than we have and we can't dominate them like we want to be able to... so add a few zeroes to the end of the next few years budget for a decade or so so we can catch up.
GarryB- Posts : 35771
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
I think the Navy is much better off having carrier and land based fighters and aircraft developed by the Air Force because the level of commonality with the Su-57 for the heavy fighter and the MiG-35 or 5th gen replacement simply make sense to be based on those land based aircraft and will be much cheaper than coming up with any fighter on their own... especially a half arsed VSTOL piece of crap.
In terms of Helicopters the situation has blurred somewhat with Mil used to be for land/Army and Kamov used to be for Navy, but even then there was the Mi-14 for the coastal forces.
These days both Mil and Kamov do both land and sea models including Ka-52K and Mi-8/17 which presumably would eventually be replaced with a Mi-38, and of course the Ka-226 which will also be used land and sea... and the Ka-31 AEW platform.
In terms of Helicopters the situation has blurred somewhat with Mil used to be for land/Army and Kamov used to be for Navy, but even then there was the Mi-14 for the coastal forces.
These days both Mil and Kamov do both land and sea models including Ka-52K and Mi-8/17 which presumably would eventually be replaced with a Mi-38, and of course the Ka-226 which will also be used land and sea... and the Ka-31 AEW platform.
Mir- Posts : 2541
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Join date : 2021-06-10
Any progress the new Ka-65 Minoga deck helicopter? I think the picture of the prototype below dates back to 2019 but still no show?
It's the one behind the Ka-226.
It's the one behind the Ka-226.
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GarryB- Posts : 35771
Points : 36297
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
If there is any truth in this it is beyond comprehension that countering the biggest military threat to Russia - is apparently the most neglected! That I find a bit hard to believe, but it is quite apparent that they are dragging their feet when it comes to replacing old maritime patrol aircraft. However I do agree with the author that it's not the type of aircraft that's important - it is the actual onboard systems that's the most crucial element.
I would say the thing holding up new maritime patrol aircraft as well as helicopters and lots of other aircraft types is engines, which is being worked through.
MPAs have expensive contents and there is little value rushing some piece of crap into service only to replace them in 5 years time with a brand new design with four times the flight range because their new engines are state of the art...
Equally with helicopters, the right engine is critical in terms of performance, and hopefully the delay in putting the Mi-14 back in to production is because instead of the Mi-14 based on the Mi-8 it is going to be the Mi-438 based on the Mi-38 transport aircraft with newer engines and better performance and a fully sea surface operating hull... perhaps with extendible outriggers to prevent it rolling in open sea conditions... the engine power of an idling helicopter uses much less power and allows much better endurance than the engine power of a hovering helicopter, and using a dipping sonar from the sea surface would allow the different sea layers to be checked for targets hiding deep...
With more modern electronics and newer lighter weapons it would be a very good coastal anti sub helicopter...
Finty- Posts : 539
Points : 545
Join date : 2021-02-10
Location : Great Britain
Good article on the development of the Su-33
https://www.zona-militar.com/2021/07/04/sukhoi-su-33-su-27k-flanker-d-la-grulla-embarcada-parte-1-de-2/
https://www.zona-militar.com/2021/07/04/sukhoi-su-33-su-27k-flanker-d-la-grulla-embarcada-parte-1-de-2/
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Krepost- Posts : 552
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Video from NTV channel about the last surviving Be-12 Amphibious AAW aircraft.
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LMFS- Posts : 5022
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Avia tolk: Kaliningrad's defense will be strengthened by sea "Super-Dry"ships
The Baltic Fleet will receive Su-30SM2 aircraft in 2022
Roman Kretsul
Anton Lavrov
The Russian Baltic Fleet has begun training the first crews and air crews of the new Su-30SM2 combat aircraft. It is expected that the first flights in normal mode will begin next year. According to experts, the arrival of the Su-30SM2 will significantly strengthen the potential of the air group covering Kaliningrad. The strengthening of the air component of the Baltic Fleet forces is taking place against the background of a significantly increased NATO military activity in the region.
The flight crew and specialists of engineering and airfield support have already begun to master the upgraded Su-30SM2 aircraft, Izvestia's sources in the military department said. Crews and air accounts are being formed, which will jointly undergo training on this type of equipment. It is expected that they will finish next year and then get the first cars, the sources said. The novelty will be delivered to the 4th Guards Marine Assault Aviation Regiment.
— This regiment is one of the most famous units of Russian naval aviation, "military historian Dmitry Boltenkov told Izvestia. — Their main task is to fight both ship-based and ground-based groups, as well as air operations in the waters of the Kaliningrad exclave. In general, in naval aviation, historically, Su-24, Su-24M, Su-30 aircraft are classified as naval attack aircraft, and not as in the VKS — bombers and fighter-bombers.
At a time when the Baltic states are actively purchasing new aircraft, the aviation covering Kaliningrad needs to be updated, the expert believes.
— Today, the fleet of the 4th Assault Aviation Regiment includes basic Su-30SM and rather outdated Su-24s, " he explained. — The latter should be changed long ago, and the Su-30SM needs to be upgraded to version 2. This military unit, along with the 689th Fighter Aviation Regiment, protects Kaliningrad from air strikes both from the sea and from the borders of neighboring states. The Su-30SM2S that will be delivered to this regiment are effective combat units that can withstand modern threats.
According to modern requirements
The basic version of the aircraft — the Su-30SM-has become the most numerous of the new types of fighters available to the Ministry of Defense. About 130 vehicles are in service with the Aerospace Forces and naval aviation. In 2015, work began on creating its deep modification, which will increase combat capabilities and import substitution. The first flight of the machine designated Su-30SM2 took place in February of this year.
Improvements as part of the upgrade have expanded the range of guided weapons, including high-precision missiles. To do this, the on-board radar station was modified on CM2.
In 2018, on behalf of the President of the Russian Federation, a program was launched to unify the Su-30SM and Su-35 fighters. It should bring their characteristics and capabilities closer together, as well as simplify the maintenance of the fleet of aircraft. The new modification will receive the same AL-41F1S engines that are installed on the Su-35S. In terms of traction, it is 16% higher than the AL-31FP engine currently used. It will also have twice as much resource.
Following the fifth-generation fighters, the Su-30SM2 received a multi-channel integrated communication, data exchange, navigation and identification system (OSNOD). It will allow the vehicle to be integrated into modern automated control systems and interact with the Su-57, and subsequently with heavy drones.
Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu spoke about the conclusion of the first contract for 21 serial fighters of this model at the end of 2020. Izvestia has already written that an agreement has also been signed to upgrade the combat-ready Su-30s currently in service to the CM2 level. The number of aircraft that will be improved was not officially announced.
The Baltic region, like the Black Sea region, remains a point of tension right now. Air groups that patrol near the borders of Russia are constantly sent to Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia on rotation. On December 26, Deputy Defense Minister Alexander Fomin said that during this year, NATO countries have made more than 1,200 sorties of aircraft and more than 50 warships for maritime reconnaissance in the Baltic Sea zone. Last year, the NATO Command conducted more than 20 operational and combat training activities in the region. At the same time, neutral states and Russia's closest neighbors — Finland and Sweden-are actively involved in the coalition activity.
In recent years, the Defense Ministry has been actively strengthening both the air and ground components of the forces covering the Kaliningrad region. Until recently, the 4th Guards Assault Regiment was the only aviation unit in the region, but in 2019, the once-famous 689th Fighter Aviation Regiment was recreated there. A few years ago, the ground group was consolidated into the 11th Army Corps (AK). Until this year, it included separate motorized rifle brigades and a regiment. This year, the 18th Guards Motorized Rifle Division was formed on the basis of the brigade. In addition, the 152nd Guards Missile Brigade, which received Iskander tactical missile systems in 2018, is defending Kaliningrad. The corps artillery is represented by the 244th Artillery Brigade. Last year, it was upgraded from 122-mm Grads to 300-mm Smerch multiple launch rocket systems. The firing range of these complexes exceeds 100 km.
https://iz.ru/1270981/roman-kretcul-anton-lavrov/avia-tolk-oboronu-kaliningrada-usiliat-morskimi-super-sukhimi
The Baltic Fleet will receive Su-30SM2 aircraft in 2022
Roman Kretsul
Anton Lavrov
The Russian Baltic Fleet has begun training the first crews and air crews of the new Su-30SM2 combat aircraft. It is expected that the first flights in normal mode will begin next year. According to experts, the arrival of the Su-30SM2 will significantly strengthen the potential of the air group covering Kaliningrad. The strengthening of the air component of the Baltic Fleet forces is taking place against the background of a significantly increased NATO military activity in the region.
The flight crew and specialists of engineering and airfield support have already begun to master the upgraded Su-30SM2 aircraft, Izvestia's sources in the military department said. Crews and air accounts are being formed, which will jointly undergo training on this type of equipment. It is expected that they will finish next year and then get the first cars, the sources said. The novelty will be delivered to the 4th Guards Marine Assault Aviation Regiment.
— This regiment is one of the most famous units of Russian naval aviation, "military historian Dmitry Boltenkov told Izvestia. — Their main task is to fight both ship-based and ground-based groups, as well as air operations in the waters of the Kaliningrad exclave. In general, in naval aviation, historically, Su-24, Su-24M, Su-30 aircraft are classified as naval attack aircraft, and not as in the VKS — bombers and fighter-bombers.
At a time when the Baltic states are actively purchasing new aircraft, the aviation covering Kaliningrad needs to be updated, the expert believes.
— Today, the fleet of the 4th Assault Aviation Regiment includes basic Su-30SM and rather outdated Su-24s, " he explained. — The latter should be changed long ago, and the Su-30SM needs to be upgraded to version 2. This military unit, along with the 689th Fighter Aviation Regiment, protects Kaliningrad from air strikes both from the sea and from the borders of neighboring states. The Su-30SM2S that will be delivered to this regiment are effective combat units that can withstand modern threats.
According to modern requirements
The basic version of the aircraft — the Su-30SM-has become the most numerous of the new types of fighters available to the Ministry of Defense. About 130 vehicles are in service with the Aerospace Forces and naval aviation. In 2015, work began on creating its deep modification, which will increase combat capabilities and import substitution. The first flight of the machine designated Su-30SM2 took place in February of this year.
Improvements as part of the upgrade have expanded the range of guided weapons, including high-precision missiles. To do this, the on-board radar station was modified on CM2.
In 2018, on behalf of the President of the Russian Federation, a program was launched to unify the Su-30SM and Su-35 fighters. It should bring their characteristics and capabilities closer together, as well as simplify the maintenance of the fleet of aircraft. The new modification will receive the same AL-41F1S engines that are installed on the Su-35S. In terms of traction, it is 16% higher than the AL-31FP engine currently used. It will also have twice as much resource.
Following the fifth-generation fighters, the Su-30SM2 received a multi-channel integrated communication, data exchange, navigation and identification system (OSNOD). It will allow the vehicle to be integrated into modern automated control systems and interact with the Su-57, and subsequently with heavy drones.
Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu spoke about the conclusion of the first contract for 21 serial fighters of this model at the end of 2020. Izvestia has already written that an agreement has also been signed to upgrade the combat-ready Su-30s currently in service to the CM2 level. The number of aircraft that will be improved was not officially announced.
The Baltic region, like the Black Sea region, remains a point of tension right now. Air groups that patrol near the borders of Russia are constantly sent to Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia on rotation. On December 26, Deputy Defense Minister Alexander Fomin said that during this year, NATO countries have made more than 1,200 sorties of aircraft and more than 50 warships for maritime reconnaissance in the Baltic Sea zone. Last year, the NATO Command conducted more than 20 operational and combat training activities in the region. At the same time, neutral states and Russia's closest neighbors — Finland and Sweden-are actively involved in the coalition activity.
In recent years, the Defense Ministry has been actively strengthening both the air and ground components of the forces covering the Kaliningrad region. Until recently, the 4th Guards Assault Regiment was the only aviation unit in the region, but in 2019, the once-famous 689th Fighter Aviation Regiment was recreated there. A few years ago, the ground group was consolidated into the 11th Army Corps (AK). Until this year, it included separate motorized rifle brigades and a regiment. This year, the 18th Guards Motorized Rifle Division was formed on the basis of the brigade. In addition, the 152nd Guards Missile Brigade, which received Iskander tactical missile systems in 2018, is defending Kaliningrad. The corps artillery is represented by the 244th Artillery Brigade. Last year, it was upgraded from 122-mm Grads to 300-mm Smerch multiple launch rocket systems. The firing range of these complexes exceeds 100 km.
https://iz.ru/1270981/roman-kretcul-anton-lavrov/avia-tolk-oboronu-kaliningrada-usiliat-morskimi-super-sukhimi
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Podlodka77- Posts : 2033
Points : 2037
Join date : 2022-01-06
Location : Z
TASS is the beast !
Irkutsk Aviation Plant for the first time built four Su-30SM2 fighters for the Navy
MOSCOW, January 20. /TASS/. Four modernized super-maneuverable multifunctional two-seat Su-30SM2 fighters were first produced by the Irkutsk Aviation Plant in 2021 in the interests of the naval aviation of the Russian Navy. Alexander Veprev, General Director of the Irkutsk Aviation Plant of PJSC Irkut Corporation, Deputy General Director of PJSC Irkut Corporation, reported this to Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.
“In 2021, the Irkutsk Aviation Plant for the first time manufactured four modernized super-maneuverable multifunctional two-seat Su-30SM2 fighters in the interests of the naval aviation of the Navy,” Veprev said during a single day of acceptance of military products, which was held on January 20 at the National Defense Control Center of Russia.
More on this information here...
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/13478231
Irkutsk Aviation Plant for the first time built four Su-30SM2 fighters for the Navy
MOSCOW, January 20. /TASS/. Four modernized super-maneuverable multifunctional two-seat Su-30SM2 fighters were first produced by the Irkutsk Aviation Plant in 2021 in the interests of the naval aviation of the Russian Navy. Alexander Veprev, General Director of the Irkutsk Aviation Plant of PJSC Irkut Corporation, Deputy General Director of PJSC Irkut Corporation, reported this to Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu.
“In 2021, the Irkutsk Aviation Plant for the first time manufactured four modernized super-maneuverable multifunctional two-seat Su-30SM2 fighters in the interests of the naval aviation of the Navy,” Veprev said during a single day of acceptance of military products, which was held on January 20 at the National Defense Control Center of Russia.
More on this information here...
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/13478231
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