[Official] Armata Discussion thread #3

My bad!

I guess now I know that top hatch is not the same thing as service hatch on top.

Maybe the point has been discussed before, but one innovation in the T-14 is the reduced tread pressure
on the ground. The tank has 14 wheels instead of 12 but weighs only 48 tons which is about the same
as the T-90. Judging by the length difference it looks like there is about 20% less pressure. This has
implications for mobility in soft ground (less sinking and hence less energy wasted plowing soil). This feature
combined with the much more powerful engine means the T-14 outclasses any other MBT in mobility.

kvs wrote:Maybe the point has been discussed before, but one innovation in the T-14 is the reduced tread pressure
on the ground.   The tank has 14 wheels instead of 12 but weighs only 48 tons which is about the same
as the T-90.   Judging by the length difference it looks like there is about 20% less pressure.   This has
implications for mobility in soft ground (less sinking and hence less energy wasted plowing soil).   This feature
combined with the much more powerful engine means the T-14 outclasses any other MBT in mobility.  

According to my calculations, the nominal ground pressure is ~0.85 km/cm2. Nothing unheard of, but it does so without making the tracks super wide.

Mean ground pressure (which would be the average) idk.

kvs wrote:Maybe the point has been discussed before, but one innovation in the T-14 is the reduced tread pressure
on the ground.   The tank has 14 wheels instead of 12 but weighs only 48 tons which is about the same
as the T-90.   Judging by the length difference it looks like there is about 20% less pressure.   This has
implications for mobility in soft ground (less sinking and hence less energy wasted plowing soil).   This feature
combined with the much more powerful engine means the T-14 outclasses any other MBT in mobility.  

Wait... Didn't the T-90A already outclass any other MBT mobility wise?

OminousSpudd wrote:

kvs wrote:Maybe the point has been discussed before, but one innovation in the T-14 is the reduced tread pressure
on the ground.   The tank has 14 wheels instead of 12 but weighs only 48 tons which is about the same
as the T-90.   Judging by the length difference it looks like there is about 20% less pressure.   This has
implications for mobility in soft ground (less sinking and hence less energy wasted plowing soil).   This feature
combined with the much more powerful engine means the T-14 outclasses any other MBT in mobility.  

Wait... Didn't the T-90A already outclass any other MBT mobility wise?

T-90A was up there for sure... 

Nominal Ground Pressure - 0.928 kg/cm2
Power-to-weight - 19.5 hp/t

NGP is lower than most tanks except for the Leo 2A6 and Arjun Mk.1, and the power-to-weight is right around the middle. It's the ability to deep ford and climb 1.2 meter obstacles that is impressive. T-72's are also great jumpers (in regards to crossing a ditch or trench). Plus, Russian V-12's have silly amounts of torque compared to most other engines out there. 

T-14 has an estimated ground pressure of 0.843 kg/cm2 (my calculation using a diagram from Otvaga) and power-to-weight of 27.27 hp/t when at 1500 hp. It also has the highest torque-to-weight ratio of any current vehicle, and 7 gears in each direction. 

Mike E wrote:

OminousSpudd wrote:

kvs wrote:Maybe the point has been discussed before, but one innovation in the T-14 is the reduced tread pressure
on the ground.   The tank has 14 wheels instead of 12 but weighs only 48 tons which is about the same
as the T-90.   Judging by the length difference it looks like there is about 20% less pressure.   This has
implications for mobility in soft ground (less sinking and hence less energy wasted plowing soil).   This feature
combined with the much more powerful engine means the T-14 outclasses any other MBT in mobility.  

Wait... Didn't the T-90A already outclass any other MBT mobility wise?

T-90A was up there for sure... 

Nominal Ground Pressure - 0.928 kg/cm2
Power-to-weight - 19.5 hp/t

NGP is lower than most tanks except for the Leo 2A6 and Arjun Mk.1, and the power-to-weight is right around the middle. It's the ability to deep ford and climb 1.2 meter obstacles that is impressive. T-72's are also great jumpers (in regards to crossing a ditch or trench). Plus, Russian V-12's have silly amounts of torque compared to most other engines out there. 

T-14 has an estimated ground pressure of 0.843 kg/cm2 (my calculation using a diagram from Otvaga) and power-to-weight of 27.27 hp/t when at 1500 hp. It also has the highest torque-to-weight ratio of any current vehicle, and 7 gears in each direction. 

Ah, that makes sense, thanks for the in-depth answer.

Basically some SOB claimed that Russia cannot self-manufacture electronics for Armata and stripped Thales products in T-72/90 to equip the Armata.

https://euobserver.com/investigations/129953

Western media is still blabbering shits about Armata, isn't it.

It's been a rumor from day one, because of former deals with THALES. T-14 uses a Russian designed and built thermal sighting system, Western media is just too ignorant to know that.

Felgenhauer told EUobserver it’s “most likely” the T-14 uses French technology.

Dmitry Gorenburg, a Russian expert at CNA, a Washington-based NGO, said: “Since the Russian defence industry is known to be unable to produce all components of such systems domestically, it stands to reason it [French technology] has been used to some extent”.

https://euobserver.com/investigations/129953

Russia tech ready pass france 2015
fab chip optics no prob

Dunno really, but UOMZ (Schwab) makes matrices and they were the ones contracted by thales to produce the thermal imagers for Russian tanks.

Here is a Rostec link mentioning thermal imager for tanks with 100% Russian made components (orion Matrices): http://rostec.ru/en/news/2171

higurashihougi wrote:Basically some SOB claimed that Russia cannot self-manufacture electronics for Armata and stripped Thales products in T-72/90 to equip the Armata.

https://euobserver.com/investigations/129953

Western media is still blabbering shits about Armata, isn't it.

Bhahahaha....... Thales making sights for an unmanned turreted tanks, i don't think they even produce those.  


This article is total BS.

It opens by claiming Russia wanted the Mistral for it's so called "advanced command-and-control technology" (which is Bull) and then make it seem like that was the reason why they canceled the Mistral deal, pathetic.  

They then claim that Russian T-90s are in Ukraine, which clearly shows the author (Andrew Rettman) doesn't know jack sh#t about Russian tanks. Razz

Followed by an odd quote by a Janes analyst, which clearly shows how desperate this fool was, in order to gain credibility.

After that they try to make Thales look like some shady corp. that doesn't follow the law or in this case the EU sanctions, despite the fact sanctions not effecting existing contracts.

The following part "Russian Tiger" is a mishmash of basic info of Armata, a French source (most likely from Thales) that Thales is in no way involved, then a quote from Pavel Felgenhauer which was basically "i don't know it's classified, and if did i couldn't tell you cause it's classified", and then another Janes expert comes along and basically draws the assumption that Russia "replicated the French technology".  

And i am gonna leave the "Component" part to kvs and sepheronx who are gonna have a good time debating the Microbolometer arrays, Screen matrices and other western technologies that Russia "can't" produce.  

The "Hot climate" part oddly enough starts with blaming EU for Libya and Yemen, then some crap about the technology transfer to Russia being alarming (while not giving any other examples other then Thales), fellowed by some panicky crap about Baltics, Poland and other, ending with some dumba$$ British thinktank belief that Russia is “preparing for a possible confrontation”.

And finally we have the "Thales approach" part which starts by blaming France/Thales for there part in the deaths of Ukrainian soldiers and civilians, then ends the article with a qoute by Rusi’s Sutyagin (who i couldn't find anything on so i suspect that this person may be Igor Sutyagin) basically saying that, because Russia's using imported sights they will have no superiority over the opponent(EU).  

What a sad excuse for news.

CG Irbis-K Agat-MDT / Graphic video IRBIS-K and agate MDT [HD vido]
CG Irbis-K Agat-MDT / Графический ролик ИРБИС-К и АГАТ МДТ

Client: Krasnogorsk Factory. SA Zvereva
Product: Tank optical system IRBIS-K and agate vln
Director: Roman Kulepetov

Watch the vido here:     https://vimeo.com/97210565

Irbis-k + Agat MDT optics
3-5 micron
8-12 micron

No need the thales

Book. wrote:CG Irbis-K Agat-MDT / Graphic video IRBIS-K and agate MDT [HD vido]
CG Irbis-K Agat-MDT / Графический ролик ИРБИС-К и АГАТ МДТ

Client: Krasnogorsk Factory. SA Zvereva
Product: Tank optical system IRBIS-K and agate vln
Director: Roman Kulepetov

Watch the vido here:     https://vimeo.com/97210565

Irbis-k + Agat MDT optics
3-5 micron
8-12 micron

No need the thales

Nice! So they're on par with the Catherine EZ (3-5μm) commander sight and the XP (8-12μm) thermal fire control imagers, which are probably the best in the world!

Holy crap Book, I love you. Been looking for that kind of information for months! +1

3-5 and 8-12 micron would put the sight around the newest Attica in wavelength alone, which is far above the Catherines.

Mike E wrote:Holy crap Book, I love you. Been looking for that kind of information for months! +1

3-5 and 8-12 micron would put the sight around the newest Attica in wavelength alone, which is far above the Catherines.

Actually 'Catherine's' cover those spectrums:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/long-range-thermal-imagers-catherine-fc-xp-mp-gp-claire

magnumcromagnon wrote:

Mike E wrote:Holy crap Book, I love you. Been looking for that kind of information for months! +1

3-5 and 8-12 micron would put the sight around the newest Attica in wavelength alone, which is far above the Catherines.

Actually 'Catherine's' cover those spectrums:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/defence/long-range-thermal-imagers-catherine-fc-xp-mp-gp-claire

Neither the XP or FC covers the 3-5 micron bandwidth, as far as I can tell. Other models might, but Russia hasn't have them.

Does someone have anywhere information regarding tanks TIS in range as identification and spotting ranges to compare?

higurashihougi wrote:Basically some SOB claimed that Russia cannot self-manufacture electronics for Armata and stripped Thales products in T-72/90 to equip the Armata.

https://euobserver.com/investigations/129953

Western media is still blabbering shits about Armata, isn't it.

That Clown is the one of the American NGO group spreading bullshit about Russia
Military.. here is the photo of the Bastard.

and his website..

https://russiamil.wordpress.com/about/

Way before anything happened in Ukraine.. he was like " Putin This and Putin that".. and "Russian Human rights" . You can see the similarity of all western propaganda NGOs.. they all
discredit Russia in one way or the other. In his case he claim Russia cannot produce thermal imagers and T-14 will have French technology "for sure". Because thats what the believe.  

Dmitry Gorenburg, a Russian expert at CNA, a Washington-based NGO, said: “Since the Russian defence industry "is known" to be unable to produce all components of such systems domestically , it stands to reason French technology has been used to some extent”.

i will not be surprised if the clown "analyst" visits this forums under a nick name.. and was
a regular contributor too of Mp.net.


More "wisdom" from the troll King clown..  from his latest report ..

How Russian military plans to fight Future Wars..

Given the amount of attention paid over the last year to the capabilities of the Russian military ..., it is worth considering how the evolving character of warfare over the next 10-20 years is likely to affect Russia’s military capabilities when compared to leading Western states.

The trend toward greater automation, including the use of remote control weapons and AI-driven autonomous warfare, will increasingly put the Russian military at a disadvantage. Russia does not have the technology to match Western automated systems and lacks the capabilities to develop such systems on its own in the foreseeable future. Russia’s defense industry is well behind Western militaries in automated control systems, strike drones, and advanced electronics of all kinds.

The moron did not saw how Russians controlled a Robot on the moon since the 70s.. and how Automated was designed the BURAN space shuttle or a more newer example Armata tank ,and their development of Robots. Neither he knows a shit of Russian electronics military technology capabilities.. how Russia technology captured the western most advanced secret stealth drone ,through IRAN.. yet he claims RUssia to be "way behind the west". So believe it or not ,not only the moron claim Russia is way behind the west now.. but that in the next 10 to 20 years it will also very likely be way behind the west.. too..  

What kind of scientific analysis he bring to the table to backup his ludicrous claims?
None.. just his "experts" words.. lol

So as you can see the west spend a huge amount of money hiring pathetic clowns like him
to discredit Russia technology capabilities and (its Government too whenever he can).
The major problem with this is that later , Morons of the west or also American military read his reports and believe the bullshit ,their own Government finance ,that "Russia is behind" the west.
This allows them to lose the fears of a confrontation with Russia ,to later experience a hard cold
reality ,of their technology failing. Just like the F-117 shot down in Serbia , the SR-71 intertercepted several times at times by many Migs at a time near Russia and the Iranian capture of the best American ,most secret stealth drone ,without firing a shot ,just using Russian technology.  CLowns like this helps to spread the propaganda of Western invulnerability
and this can be dangerous for US politicians at the time of taking decisions could fool them into
thinking they cannot be touched and their technology "superior to Russia" ,because thats what everyone says on the media and internet.  Look how Americans dominated in IRAQ Russian Tanks.. right @american Eagle?

Vann7 wrote:i will not be surprised if the clown "analyst" visits this forums under a nick name.. and was
a regular contributor too of Mp.net.

More "wisdom" from the troll King clown..  from his latest report ..

Mi 35M see the Goes-342. 8-12 micron
Old tech from 2002..



Ru tech ready close gap. 2015  
Ru fab HD cam no prob! He no clue1..

На российских супертанках «Армата» установят казанские тепловизоры
Russian Super tank "Armata" Kazan will install thermal imaging cameras
Александр Буланов, 26.05.2015, 13:40 [08.29.2015 19:52:31]

More Here: http://prokazan.ru/news/view/101756

On the Russian super tank "Armata" set Kazan thermal imagers. As the correspondent of the portal ProKazan.ru, novelty demonstrated at the exhibition "Information technology in the service of the military-industrial complex", which opened today in Innopolis.

According to the developers of the project, the system will scan the heat radiation of each object and display the image on the monitor. The thermal imager can be used for day and night surveillance, as well as to combat and capture targets.

Currently, new surveillance systems are being tested, and in future will be installed on tanks T-14 "Armata".

Currently, the monitoring system, which will be analogous to the French thermal, are being tested, and in future they will be equipped with tanks T-14

New thermal no lesser...

to rival france

Book. wrote:

Vann7 wrote:i will not be surprised if the clown "analyst" visits this forums under a nick name.. and was
a regular contributor too of Mp.net.

More "wisdom" from the troll King clown..  from his latest report ..

Mi 35M see the Goes-342. 8-12 micron
Old tech from 2002..



Ru tech ready close gap. 2015  
Ru fab HD cam no prob! He no clue1..

"Old" technology, just to put it in a better and bigger picture of which helicopters use "old" Technologies based on 2nd generation LWIR spectrum and not 3rd generation of FLIR's with MWIR and LWIR (3-5 micron) + (8-12 micron).

AH-1Z TSS AN/AAQ-30 is 3rd generation which uses both and is currently in service in low numbers.
ARH-129 the upgraded future version for Italian A-129D versions will recieve israeli Rafael Toplite 3 which is 3rd gen. FLIR and operates in both spectrums of MWIR and LWIR.

Two helicopters that i have not found any datas on GOES-451 performance and spectrum same as GOES-521 which is probably 2nd gen and no information on Tor Zenit of Mi-28N targeting sight system.

All the rest Of EC-665 Tiger HAD/HAP are using LWIR with its Strix, M-TADS/PVNS "Arrowhead" of AH-64E is LWIR, CSH-2E1 Rooivalk with its TDATS appears to be an "old" LWIR FlIR, Mi-24G SuperHind by ATE uses the german carl zeiss Argo-550 LWIR Flir that is actually impressive for the age, Z-10 uses WXG1006 FLIR (no information) but more likely to use LWIR but no information.

Book. wrote:На российских супертанках «Армата» установят казанские тепловизоры
Russian Super tank "Armata" Kazan will install thermal imaging cameras
Александр Буланов, 26.05.2015, 13:40 [08.29.2015 19:52:31]

More Here: http://prokazan.ru/news/view/101756

On the Russian super tank "Armata" set Kazan thermal imagers. As the correspondent of the portal ProKazan.ru, novelty demonstrated at the exhibition "Information technology in the service of the military-industrial complex", which opened today in Innopolis.

According to the developers of the project, the system will scan the heat radiation of each object and display the image on the monitor. The thermal imager can be used for day and night surveillance, as well as to combat and capture targets.

Currently, new surveillance systems are being tested, and in future will be installed on tanks T-14 "Armata".

Currently, the monitoring system, which will be analogous to the French thermal, are being tested, and in future they will be equipped with tanks T-14

New thermal no lesser...

to rival france

So these are 3rd generation thermal systems? Western media outlets have been writing articles about how Russia is apparently unable to develop modern thermal systems because of their supposed inability to produce microbolometer arrays and that Russia has resigned itself to stealing advanced western systems by using shadow companies and off-shore accounts to 'smuggle' western 'thermal scopes, mini thermal monoculars, thermal cameras & night vision systems.'


Source:https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/28/u-s-cyber-firm-alleges-hacked-emails-reveal-russian-front-operation/?comments=1#comments

There was another article about how the T-14 Armata was using western components notably from France. Source:http://thediplomat.com/2015/06/is-russias-deadliest-tank-using-western-technology/

"Generation" is a bad way of describing thermals, IMO. US labels the CITV as a "2nd gen FLIR", when it would be comparable to 4th gen thermals. Catherine-XP is labeled 3rd gen, but isn't really comparable to other ones like the ATTICA-M. 

That being said, the T-14's thermal is probably around a "3++" generation. I suspect a bandwidth of 3-5/8-12 microns, zoom of at least x20, above-HD resolution, and digital zoom of probably x2.

Cyrus the great wrote:

Book. wrote:На российских супертанках «Армата» установят казанские тепловизоры
Russian Super tank "Armata" Kazan will install thermal imaging cameras
Александр Буланов, 26.05.2015, 13:40 [08.29.2015 19:52:31]

More Here: http://prokazan.ru/news/view/101756

On the Russian super tank "Armata" set Kazan thermal imagers. As the correspondent of the portal ProKazan.ru, novelty demonstrated at the exhibition "Information technology in the service of the military-industrial complex", which opened today in Innopolis.

According to the developers of the project, the system will scan the heat radiation of each object and display the image on the monitor. The thermal imager can be used for day and night surveillance, as well as to combat and capture targets.

Currently, new surveillance systems are being tested, and in future will be installed on tanks T-14 "Armata".

Currently, the monitoring system, which will be analogous to the French thermal, are being tested, and in future they will be equipped with tanks T-14

New thermal no lesser...

to rival france

So these are 3rd generation thermal systems? Western media outlets have been writing articles about how Russia is apparently unable to develop modern thermal systems because of their supposed inability to produce microbolometer arrays and that Russia has resigned itself to stealing advanced western systems by using shadow companies and off-shore accounts to 'smuggle' western 'thermal scopes, mini thermal monoculars, thermal cameras & night vision systems.'


Source:https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/28/u-s-cyber-firm-alleges-hacked-emails-reveal-russian-front-operation/?comments=1#comments

There was another article about how the T-14 Armata was using western components notably from France. Source:http://thediplomat.com/2015/06/is-russias-deadliest-tank-using-western-technology/

If you learn to read, this was discussed earlier. Company in Russia who makes the matrices is called Orion. Schwab (UOMZ) makes the thermals and the matrices are made by Orion.

Mike E wrote:"Generation" is a bad way of describing thermals, IMO. US labels the CITV as a "2nd gen FLIR", when it would be comparable to 4th gen thermals. Catherine-XP is labeled 3rd gen, but isn't really comparable to other ones like the ATTICA-M. 

That being said, the T-14's thermal is probably around a "3++" generation. I suspect a bandwidth of 3-5/8-12 microns, zoom of at least x20, above-HD resolution, and digital zoom of probably x2.

Ru lot company can fab NATO type optic or local no prob. Thk the thale sell the blue print.

Shvabe now hold the doc + machine tech. T14 optic is no lesser but new make cath xp