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49 posters

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    GarryB
    GarryB


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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 13 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:26 am

    The engine itself can be much cheaper and more reliable if it is produced in bigger numbers and covers more units of the VKS

    Yeah, like the engine for the F-35 will be cheap if they cancel the other engine so everyone has to use the same engine so you save money because one engine gets all the sales... except that didn't work.

    A bit of competition gives your customers some choice... with an aircraft like the F-35 you can have different engines that might improve different aspects of flight performance... one customer might want the aircraft as a pure fighter in which case an engine that allows higher supercruise speed might be preferred, whereas another customer might prefer the engine that gives the greatest range in high subsonic low altitude penetration flights for more strike roles...

    Sukhoi has already explained the reason for the single engine plane and why it is cheaper than twin engine (it should be obvious regardless), no need for me to insist on their arguments.

    Yeah, and if they made a three engined plane they would explain that that was the best design solution too... at the end of the day it comes down to what the customers want... and what their alternatives might be.

    It was done by UEC which means 1 trillion times more in the know than you or me...

    They would know more than us, but certainly not a trillion times.... I would say the person in purchasing for the military customer would know better than the guy in marketing for the producer...

    Maybe, but they were covering basically the whole range of applications in UEC's future portfolio.

    And any producer would love for all their customers to want their best product and nothing else... it very much simplifies things... but having one tool to solve all your problems is a bit like the opposite of the old saying... when the only tool you have is a hammer treat every problem like it is a nail.

    Those plans passed the drain long time ago. We have fresh statements from Slyusar (it should serve as food for thought that he stresses the fact that the LTS has the kind of performance it has re. payload and range in order to attend the VKs' needs) and we all know VKS will buy the Su-75. But ok.

    It hasn't even flown yet, let alone passed any tests or been compared with any competing project... it would be criminal for him to state it was the plane they want and he should be removed from his position if he did so... otherwise it makes a mockery of procedure and rules.

    They need money to actually bring those ideas to metal and that is where investors may not want to take the risk.

    Promising something they know they can't deliver is no help to their situation... no risk or low risk usually means no or low reward.
    LMFS
    LMFS


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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 13 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  LMFS Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:A bit of competition gives your customers some choice... with an aircraft like the F-35 you can have different engines that might improve different aspects of flight performance... one customer might want the aircraft as a pure fighter in which case an engine that allows higher supercruise speed might be preferred, whereas another customer might prefer the engine that gives the greatest range in high subsonic low altitude penetration flights for more strike roles...

    Then you are missing what UEC is about. There are simply no resources to have several manufacturers of equivalent engines competing for the market, not if you need to keep up with the advances of your adversaries. This is no joke, they need to concentrate efforts to face the West now and China in the imminent future.

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    GarryB
    GarryB


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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 13 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:43 pm

    UEC is about retaining design skills, so having factions inside the company competing for different jobs makes sense... once jobs are allocated then you can cooperate to make things better, but giving all the jobs to one faction just makes one faction fat and lazy and overloaded with work... and defeats the whole purpose of keeping the different engineers and technicians.

    Not to mention each faction has its own partners in electronics and engines and systems which also need some work too.

    Giving all the plane jobs to Sukhoi and all the engine jobs to Saturn and you will find you will continue to depend on them because the other design bureaus will shrivel up and die without funding or activity.

    The Checkmate looks like a good plane, but lets see what MiG or Yak can come up with first before we call it a done deal... some of the features of the izd 30 engine are very good and state of the art but Klimov and Salyut have not been sleeping either.

    Concentrating their resources into one branch of one company and you end up like the US where Boeing made the F-35 and Northrop/Whoever used their XF-32 funding to really work on new stealth technologies they wanted to apply to other aircraft... they didn't really even try to win.
    Kiko
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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 13 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Kiko Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:03 pm

    A. Inozemtsev - on the prospects for engines for aircraft from Tu-214 to MS-21-400, 08.18.2022.

    Alexander Inozemtsev, Deputy General Director of JSC UEC for the management of NPK Perm Motors, Managing Director - General Designer of JSC UEC-Aviadvigatel, spoke on the sidelines of the Army-2022 International Military-Technical Forum about the prospects for the production and modernization of the PD-14 engine , the required number of PS-90A, on the development of the PD-35 engine and on the opportunities that open up for designers after its appearance.

    “We have just signed a four billion ruble loan with Novikombank for the production of a very large batch of PD-14s for the next years,”informedAlexander Inozemtsev to the journalist of the TV channel Zvezda Alexei Samoletov during a conversation.

    He explained that the required production volumes of the PD-14 are currently so large that this engine is not planned to be used anywhere except for the MS-21 liner. “God forbid to swallow what will now be on MS-21-310. [...] The government instructed us to reach 160 engines a year by the thirtieth year, this is with a reserve. There will be 72 aircraft [per year], plus a reserve,” said the deputy head of the UEC.

    Regarding the line of promising engines and the modernization potential of the PD-14, Alexander Inozemtsev noted that so far this is the first member of the family. But there will be others with a thrust of 8 to 18 tons.

    “Irkut Corporation is simultaneously making a smaller aircraft for an engine with a capacity of 12.5 tons instead of fourteen, and is now actively engaged in the “four hundred” - MS-21-400 . This is 16.5 tons and a larger aircraft,” said A. Inozemtsev.

    Regarding the PD-8 engine, he said that the UEC-Saturn enterprise is developing it, and the UEC-Perm Motors is an "accomplice" in this project, explaining that the required number of these engines is about 100 units per year. "The Superjet needs to fly."

    Answering a question about the succession of the PD-8 and PD-14 gas generators, Alexander Inozemtsev said that it was a mistake to consider the PD-8 gas generator as one of the PD-14 variants. “This is a brand new gas generator. It is smaller, more optimal for this small engine than the PD-14 gas generator and therefore a more technically risky project. The timing of its creation is very tough,” he explained.

    Alexander Inozemtsev also noted that in addition to the PD-14 and PD-8, there will be a sharp increase in the production of PS-90A engines.

    “Because the magnificent Tu-214 aircraft, ruined in the zero years ... the “leader” made a decision: to urgently make 70 aircraft before the 30th year. We reach 120 PS-90A engines per year. This is along with military orders. This is also a huge volume. This is an engine that got into trouble... We received a type certificate on April 3, 1992... And thank God that it comes to life and will be made in the same quantities as the PD-14,” said the general designer of JSC UEC-Aviadvigatel.

    And depending on the engine, the undeservedly ruined Tu-214 comes to life - a medium-haul airliner capable of flying 6-7 thousand km non-stop, for example, from Moscow to Khabarovsk. Also, this liner is used for special purposes as a reconnaissance and surveillance aircraft. “The equipment has been preserved, the technologies have been preserved. Now you just need to remove the military cabin and put in beautiful seats, and there will be a magnificent passenger plane,” said A. Inozemtsev.

    And the most important question that Aleksey Samoletov asked the Deputy General Director of the UEC: "What is the fate of the PD-35?"

    According to Alexander Inozemtsev, in conditions of limited resources, unfortunately, the project will develop more slowly than previously planned. The PD-35 demonstrator engine will be assembled and tested by 2024.

    “The PD-35 project will go a little slower, with a shift to the right for two or three years, because gigantic money is needed. Without a doubt, we will assemble and test a demonstrator engine by 2024, no matter how hard it is. And then let's move on to the situation. But we will understand for sure, having assembled the engine, where we are in terms of technology, we are creating technologies for the long-haul aircraft market,” said A. Inozemtsev. He added that the main forces will now be applied to replicate the PD-14 and PS-90A engines.

    At the same time, the General Designer of UEC-Aviadvigatel noted that the PD-35 has great potential. “This is the most innovative project. The latest technology is absolute. This is a market niche for long-haul twin-engine aircraft, a colossal scientific and technical potential, which we must enter with the help of the PD-35 and further develop the family from 25 tons to 50 tons. This is what we are aiming for,” said Alexander Inozemtsev.

    He added that China is very interested in the PD-35 engine project. “Now it will be easier with the pandemic, we will revive.”

    https://aviation21.ru/a-inozemcev-rasskazal-o-sovremennyx-aviacionnyx-dvigatelyax-i-ix-perspektivax/

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    LMFS
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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 13 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  LMFS Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:10 pm

    The translation is a bit weird, he says the gas generator of the PD-8 is not the same of the PD-14? That should be good news for the commercial potential of the SSJ-New
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 13 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:07 am

    LMFS wrote:The translation is a bit weird, he says the gas generator of the PD-8 is not the same of the PD-14? That should be good news for the commercial potential of the SSJ-New
    it could not be the same as the thrust is just a bit more than half of the PD-14. The core would be too large for the rest of the engine and also highly inefficient. I believe the lower thrust limit for the PD-14 family engines is around 12.5 tons.

    Maybe the new PD,8 engine will have better specific fuel consumption than the SaM146 engine (which, according to public available data has actually worse performance than the later models of the Soviet/Ukrainian Ivchenko -Progress D-436).
    Kiko
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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 13 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Kiko Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:37 am

    At the Technoprom-2022 forum, they talked about the timing of the development of the PD-8 engine, 08.26.2022.

    As part of the development work and in order to pass the certification of the PD-8 engine, it will be necessary to manufacture and test nine prototypes. This was announced in Novosibirsk during the Technoprom-2022 forum by UEC General Designer Yuri Shmotin.

    “Testing continues for almost a year. The gas generator of the engine, components and systems were tested. We need to produce nine prototypes and four assemblies as part of the development work. A large amount of testing lies ahead,” he said.

    The General Designer of the UEC explained that it is planned to create and test the engines within the next year. All these works should be completed in 2023. He emphasized that it is necessary to confirm by tests the design results and the compliance of the engine with the requirements of the certification basis.

    “The question is not to manufacture, but that we must confirm the design results with tests,” the general designer said.

    Also at the forum, the head of the Department of Innovative Development of the UEC Evgeny Pavlovtoldthat the process of development and production of engines, in particular, VK-650 and PD-8, is planned to be reduced to four years.

    According to him, one of the key tasks facing the UEC today is to reduce the time it takes to develop and bring products to market. “When developing such engines as the PS-90, the development period was about 12 years, the PD-14 engine is eight years, and at the moment we have a target setting to reduce the product development period to four years, these are our VK-650 and PD engines -8,” he said.

    In turn, the head of projects of the highest category of innovative development of Rostec, Viktor Slavyantsev, noted that it takes about five years for UEC to form a complete advanced scientific and technological reserve before the production and development of an engine.

    https://aviation21.ru/na-forume-texnoprom-2022-rasskazali-o-srokax-razrabotki-dvigatelya-pd-8/

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    Autodestruct


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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 13 Empty Re: U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    Post  Autodestruct Thu Sep 08, 2022 5:16 pm

    Here's a good article on current Russian turbine engine research areas. Demonstrators are being made to test polymer composite compressor rotating elements, ceramic composite turbine elements (probably static), dry bearings (no lubrication), and hollow discs. And it may not have a gearbox. Next gen technology.



    https://aviation21.ru/v-ciam-prorabatyvayutsya-texnologii-malorazmernyx-gazoturbinnyx-dvigatelej/

    It talks about piston engine research too.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 09, 2022 2:11 am

    What an excellent article... well worth visiting and giving them traffic:

    CIAM develops technologies for small-sized gas turbine engines
    08.09.2022, 13:17 270
    Photo: © CIAM

    The P. I. Baranov Central Institute of Aviation Engine Building (CIAM) conducts research and develops technologies for advanced small-size gas turbine engines (MGTD) and aircraft piston engines (APD) to ensure the creation of mass-produced engines for light aircraft, helicopters and UAVs for civil purposes.

    The results of the fifth, penultimate stage of the research work "Demonstrators of MGTD and ADF", ordered by the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia, were summed up at the Scientific and technical Council at CIAM in August this year, the press service of the Institute said.

    The three-year research project is scheduled for completion at the end of 2022. The result of this work will be the creation and testing of five demonstrators: a" more electric " dry small-size MGTD, a promising low-cost MGTD, demonstrators of free-piston and turbocompound ADF technologies, a demonstrator of a high-altitude small-size combustion chamber, as well as a number of experimental objects: a compressor impeller made of polymer composite material, a turbine nozzle made of diamond-silicon carbide composite material, hollow disk of the MGTD turbine, etc. The technology demonstrators and experimental facilities developed and tested at V Zhelezye CIAM will serve as a base for the development of a new generation of domestic small-sized gas turbine and piston engines.

    A number of innovations are planned to be introduced in promising Russian aircraft engines. So, the built-in electric generator of the" more electric " engine will provide power to the electric drives of its units. This allows you to get away from the manual transmission of drives and improve performance, reduce the weight and cost of the structure, and increase the reliability of the engine. The demonstrator is called" dry " because it uses supports with gas-dynamic bearings that do not require oil cooling. This will reduce the amount of maintenance during operation, as well as reduce the weight and cost of the engine.

    "At the heart of the promising MGTD of low cost turbofan engine-200 is the concept of a unified gas generator, which reduces the number of parts to a minimum, combines the functions of structural elements," says Yuri Fokin, head of Research and Development, Head of the CIAM Department. – Due to the optimization of manufacturing technology, which involves the use of resource-saving methods and materials, the cost of such an engine will be significantly cheaper than traditional ones. Its scheduled inter-repair life is 2000 hours. This is not yet ROC, but our task is to bring the engine as close as possible to the serial, "business" model at the research stage."

    The demonstrator of advanced ADF technologies is a turbocompound engine-a combination of a piston engine and a gas turbine engine.

    "A turbocompound module is added to the piston engine, which uses the energy of the ADF exhaust gases in the turbine and converts it into mechanical energy, thereby increasing the engine power," explains Yuri Fokin. "The turbocompound module is being developed as part of a demonstrator paired with a basic 100 hp piston engine, but in the future it will be able to be used with different ADCs for UAVs and small aircraft."

    Additionally, the characteristics of the piston engine are improved by using a volumetric air supercharger, which is part of the demonstrator of advanced ADF technologies.

    The peculiarity of the free-piston engine is that in its design there is no mechanism-a converter of reciprocating movements of pistons in the rotation of the output shaft. This simplifies the design of the engine, reduces its weight, and increases the reliability of the power plant. Such engines are supposed to be used in conjunction with a linear electric generator as part of power plants for light-engine "more electric" aircraft.

    As part of the fifth stage of research, demonstrators and experimental objects were manufactured and tested based on the designs and solutions developed at the previous stages. The results confirmed that the products met the requirements of the technical specifications for their development.

    So it is a development programme to make small gas turbines and prop engines for light planes and helicopters and UAVs using new materials and new technologies and more electric components... this sounds excellent...

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