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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines

    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:25 am

    kvs wrote:In the US every state has lobbied for MIC infrastructure.   A similar process must be happening in Russia to some degree.   The reality of democratic political pandering.   The tone of the pronouncements in the above article has a hysterical slant and is not necessarily
    "all is lost for Russia".
    No I think they are actually right. I remember reading about this. There were plans to build expanded facilities for PD-14 engine mass production.
    Now that there won't be US engine sales for MS-21, they will need like double the production so those facilities won't be enough.
    You might also see increased demand for PD-8 engines for the Superjet. If, for whatever reason, they need to swap out the SaM146 in the existing Superjets with PD-8s it will further increase demand for that engine as well. Since it takes a couple years to build a fab they will need to start building it sooner rather than later. The existing production facilities IIRC are good for like a dozen engines a year. To push it further you would have to convert existing production lines to the PD-14. But those are already being used to manufacture PS-90 engines for the Il-76 program and as turbines for natural gas pumping in pipelines.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Apr 29, 2022 11:43 pm

    I say build both engine sites... the two locations they can't decide on... build them both because over time you are going to get more engine types into service and existing engine types will need to be replaced as well... getting older aircraft upgraded with new engines will improve their performance and simplify maintenance and support because right now there is a mishmash of local and foreign engines of a range of different types based on different engines, but the new PD range of engines should have design and support commonality... presumably unified electronics and software that can be used for fault finding and diagnostic purposes should be standardised across the range of engine types.

    New factories can be designed with the latest equipment so changing between production engine types should be easier and faster and cheaper than upgrading an older factory.... though they should be upgraded too... though not in any way to slow production speed... the purposes should be upgrades focussed on speeding up production and improving quality of the work and product being produced.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Thu May 12, 2022 5:12 pm

    Bench tests of the first prototype of the PD-8 engine completed

    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 12 11111110

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4524884.html

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Mon May 16, 2022 11:46 am

    Rostec has increased the service life of gas turbine engines for long-range aircraft

    16.05.2022 15:52:04
    Samara. May 16. INTERFAX-UEC-Kuznetsov (part of the United Engine Corporation Rostec) has put into operation robotic equipment for applying special strengthening coatings to engine parts, the press service of the Samara plant reported on Monday.
    With the help of a robotic plasma spraying system, refractory and strengthening coatings will be applied to engine parts in automatic mode.
    According to the Rostec aviation cluster, " the industrial robot will increase the service life of gas turbine engines of all types, including the NK-32 02 series used on Tu-160 strategic missile carriers."
    It is noted that the plasma spray complex will perform processing of the compressor and turbine of gas turbine engines not only for UEC enterprises.
    "Within the framework of import substitution programs, the equipment can be widely used in the interests of domestic industry, "Alexey Sobolev, Deputy General Director and Managing Director of PJSC UEC - Kuznetsov, is quoted in the message.
    Currently, the robot complex meets the production needs by processing up to 100 ring parts per month when working in two shifts. At the same time, the throughput capacity of the equipment can be increased up to 300 units of large-sized parts and up to 1 thousand parts of small dimensions.
    The UEC-Kuznetsov plant in Samara produces second-series NK-32 aircraft engines for Tu-160 Bely Lebed strategic bombers and deeply upgraded Tu-160M, NK-12MP for Tu-95MS, NK-25 for long-range Tu-22M3 aircraft, as well as RD-107A rocket engines/RD-108A for Vostok, Voskhod, and Soyuz launch vehicles and NK-33A 1st stage Soyuz-2.1 V rocket engines.
    As reported, UEC-Kuznetsov is also working on creating an engine for a promising long-range aviation complex (a product of the Russian Federation)

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=574683&lang=RU

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Mon May 16, 2022 11:53 am

    UEC will show hybrid engine layout for the first time at HeliRussia-2022

    16.05.2022 12:35:48
    Moscow. May 16. INTERFAX-At the HeliRussia-2022 helicopter exhibition, a mock-up of a hybrid power plant for advanced aircraft, including drones, will be demonstrated for the first time, the press service of the United Engine Corporation (UEC, part of Rostec) reported.
    UEC-Klimov will present for the first time at the International Helicopter Industry Exhibition a model of a hybrid power plant and demonstrators of VK-650V and VK-1600V engines," the press service said.
    They noted that the company's representatives will also present reports on new aircraft engine developments and take part in signing agreements at the exhibition.
    "The GSU layout is presented on the platform of a promising unmanned aerial vehicle with four rotary propellers. Potential objects of application of the 500 kW HSU are light multi-purpose helicopters, advanced unmanned (optionally manned) aircraft with a take-off weight of 2-8 tons, local air lines, air taxis, business aviation, vertical take - off and landing aircraft," the press service said.
    The UEC explained that the GSU layout includes a gas turbine engine, electric motors, power electronics units, an electric generator and a battery pack.
    It was reported that the use of hybrid technologies in aviation will reduce fuel consumption by up to 70% and significantly reduce harmful emissions.
    The 650 hp VK-650V engine is the first domestic engine for the Ka-226T, Ansat-U, VRT-500 light class helicopters and foreign vehicles with the same payload capacity. The first demonstrator engine was assembled in December 2020 and is currently undergoing testing. The type certificate for the VK-650V is planned to be obtained in 2023.
    The VK-1600V engine is designed for installation on multi-purpose and special helicopters with a take-off weight of 5-8 tons. The first object of application is a promising multi-purpose helicopter Ka-62.
    HeliRussia-2022 will be held from May 19 to 21 in the Crocus Expo IEC (Krasnogorsk, Moscow Region).

    https://www.militarynews.ru/story.asp?rid=1&nid=574651&lang=RU

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue May 17, 2022 1:11 am

    Those hybrid propulsion systems would be rather interesting for helicopters as electric motors for main rotors could be designed to not need a gear box so you could power each set of rotors in a coaxial design based on the power sent to each engine controlling each set of rotors.

    The gearbox for the Hokum and Helix range of helicopters is very complex and weighs about 3 tons and is the reason why the west does not use helicopters in that weight class...

    Being able to swap the gearbox out for electric motors would save a lot of weight and complexity and also improve performance too no doubt.

    Will be interesting...
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    Gazputin


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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 12 Empty VK-800S finally resurfaces

    Post  Gazputin Thu May 19, 2022 4:07 am

    https://en.topwar.ru/196470-nazvany-sroki-pojavlenija-predserijnogo-obrazca-rossijskogo-dvigatelja-vk-800-dlja-samoleta-lms-901-bajkal.html

    very useful engine .... almost there
    2024 by look of it

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    Swgman_BK


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    U.E.C.- Russian aircraft engines - Page 12 Empty AMNTK R579-300 Gas Turbine engine.

    Post  Swgman_BK Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:01 pm

    I have not seen this posted anywhere here but I came across news that AMNTK (Mordern day Tumansky) are developing a new Turbofan engine that is of the 5th Generation. Well I long knew from 2020 MAKS but I didnt know exactly what its about. I think there is a lot of Russian fighter jet programs we are not bieng told about. And I am excited to see what they are. So I watched a video on RuTube (Russian Youtube, everything is in Russian so don't bother unless you understand Russian. Luckily for me I do) and they said the new engine is expected to make around 210kN with the afterburner and some 170 or 180kN dry thrust (Imagine that in a Mig31, Mach 3.5 easy). The engine is also designed to work on a VTOL fighter jet as it has the same VTOL nozzle design as the F35 which has the same nozzle design as a Yak141.. I have not heard of the development of any VTOL Russian fighter jets. If the engine is out already (They are actually done building this amazing engine) , then most likely the jet itself is probably just some years away from a reveal too. The Russian defense Minister did say they had long started work on a 5th gen Mig31 replacement back in 2018 I believe. So these engines must be for that maybe. The VTOL version is said to make more thrust with the afterburner on going up to 250kN. Plus it uses some exotic materials that AMNTK wont comment on. 

    I am also a member of ZEN. A Russian MSN news kind of thing. You need a Yandex or VK account for that. And I followed this up there where I found info suggesting that this new engine , the R579-300 is very well being considered for the Su57 too. The Su57 is in line for the new Saturn 30 engine which is a beast too. How likely is this that Russia has replaced the Izd 30 with this new relatively unknown but bonkers powerful turbofan engine? I am not surprised that AMNTK could win the contracts to power everything. They are already making engines for Tupolevs and are building yet another unknown engine for a future Illyushin heavy transport plane (Pak-VTA apparently). They must be really good.

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    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:06 am

    Maybe it can be used in Su-75 or new interceptor. From parameters I've seen this engine is an absolute beast.

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    Swgman_BK


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    Post  Swgman_BK Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:10 am

    caveat emptor wrote:Maybe it can be used in Su-75 or new interceptor. From parameters I've seen this engine is an absolute beast.

    Hell yeah it is. There is nothing by Pratt and Whitney that even comes close to it. Thats how good it is. It smaller and lighter than a NK32 Kutznetsov but makes around the same thrust.
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    Post  Swgman_BK Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:18 am

    caveat emptor wrote:Maybe it can be used in Su-75 or new interceptor. From parameters I've seen this engine is an absolute beast.
    I doubt they are gonna use it for the SU75 though. The SU75 is largely designed as an export jet. The Russian airforce itself is not interested in it. And Sukhoi has stated before that export Su57s and Su75s will use AL41F1s. Then Russian Su57s will use the Saturn 30 engine.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:25 am

    and they said the new engine is expected to make around 210kN with the afterburner and some 170 or 180kN dry thrust (Imagine that in a Mig31, Mach 3.5 easy).

    Flight speed is not just about engine power... the MiG-29 and Su-27 have good power to weight ratios but are not as fast as either the MiG-25 nor the MiG-31, which are seriously underpowered in that regard.

    High thrust to weight ratio does not equal high top speed, the MiG-25 only has 11 ton thrust engines... which are less powerful than the Al-31s in the Su-27s.

    Ironically a super powerful main engine is not actually a good thing for a VSTOL fighter... the more powerful the engine the closer that engine exhaust nozzle has to be to the centre of gravity of the aircraft, otherwise the lift engines or lift fans at the front that balance it would need to be enormously powerful or located on the tip of the aircrafts nose for balance.

    The engine on the Harrier solved the problem by taking air from the bypass region of the main jet engine and directing that cold fast air out of nozzles on the side of the fuselage near the front of the wing (the cg). The main exhaust going out two rear nozzles that would be very hot... the side nozzles making the aircraft very vulnerable to IR guided SAMs of course and being mounted on the side made them vulnerable from a very wide range of angles.

    In comparison very powerful engines in conventional jet fighters are good things.

    How likely is this that Russia has replaced the Izd 30 with this new relatively unknown but bonkers powerful turbofan engine?

    I would guess very unlikely because it is unlikely they got that much extra power from an engine the same size and weight which means a complete redesign of the aircraft and perhaps loss of internal weapon space too.

    The current engines on the Su-57 are good... they are more powerful than the engines on the Flankers, while the Su-57 seems smaller and lighter than the Flankers, while this new engine is rather more powerful again... which suggests outstanding performance without adding another engine type.

    Generally Sukhoi works with one company for radars or engines and MiG works with different companies, so this new more powerful engine might be for a new MiG design, or perhaps Yak wants this new engine for another go at VSTOL.

    I would think the Su-75 would benefit from sharing as many components as it can from the Su-57 including radar and engine and parts, but maybe a boost in engine power might be of benefit.

    It would need to be a variable cycle engine type that can alter its bypass ratio if it was to be used in the MiG-41... I doubt an engine intended for VSTOL fighters could work efficiently to mach 4 plus speeds...

    I am not surprised that AMNTK could win the contracts to power everything.

    Not long ago LMFS was saying the makers of the izd 30 engine were talking about powering everything too...

    They are already making engines for Tupolevs and are building yet another unknown engine for a future Illyushin heavy transport plane (Pak-VTA apparently).

    Hope the new transport aircrafts engine is the PD-35.

    Hell yeah it is. There is nothing by Pratt and Whitney that even comes close to it. Thats how good it is. It smaller and lighter than a NK32 Kutznetsov but makes around the same thrust.

    The NK-32 is designed to operate in large aircraft at mach 2 or faster, thrust numbers alone don't tell you what an engine is capable of... the PD-35 is going to be 35tons of thrust but it is a high bypass turbofan like airliners use so it wont be supersonic no matter what aircraft you put it in.
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    Post  Swgman_BK Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:24 pm

    I hope that never happens. Saturn is very good at making Subpar products. Tumansky has made a lot of revolutionary products in the past. I mean Saturns Izd 30 according to rumors is going to make a little more thrust than a AL41F1. like 20kN more. It could just be a recycled AL41F1 just like the AL41 was a recycled AL31.Tumansky though. They are doing big things. This R579-300 is quite compact. It might even be smaller than a AL41F1. The thrust to weight ratio on it must be impressive. Its just a monster for something about the same size as a Klimov RD33 which is a little smaller than a GE-F414.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:58 pm

    The problem with some experts is they hear about a new system and think it should replace everything else... so the Su-57 has new generation new engines so lets replace all other fighters with Su-57s with these new engines and save money on commonality...

    But that ignores the other engine companies that are also working on the same little miracles.

    There was a time when everything was secret except the failures... we got an early look at the Havoc and the KS-172 AAM because they essentially failed in their bids to get into Russian service (vs the Hokum and the R-37M respectively).

    At the time the Mi-28 was being offered to everyone... the Swedish even tested it, and it went to international airshows and arms shows to try to find foreign buyers... at that time we hadn't even seen the Hokum and western experts described it as a two seat side by side platform... ironic because they eventually went for a side by side two seater with the Ka-52, but the Ka-50 is a single seater.

    The point is that they released information about the aircraft they wanted to export but kept quiet about the aircraft they were planning to put into service...

    If we extrapolate, then hearing about the Su-57 and its new engines and how wonderful they are is likely more about exports than anything else... equally being shown the Checkmate also shows a drive to export it and get customers... we have only seen models of the single and two engined new MiG designs presumably for land and use on carriers.

    The single engined MiG actually looks like a LIFT which suggests they have taken the low cost road so they can sell them in large numbers and be operated in large numbers which will make them more effective as a light multirole platform... assuming they don't just go for S-70s instead of light fighters.
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    Post  wilhelm Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:51 pm

    IF this is true...
    Then the R579 designation sounds rather like a further development of the R79 engine as used in the Yak-141.
    There was a conventional, non VTOL development for Yaks submission for the 5th generation fighter programme. This was to have even more thrust than the Su-57 engine..
    Granted, it's a different engine manufacturer, but this wouldn't be the first time Russian programmes have been garbled through mis-translations.

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:50 pm

    R579-300 promotional material has been around for a while. They say they use a revolutionary compressor technology, but if they were heads and shoulders above the rest of the world then they would not be needing to make such outlandish claims. And of course the engine was a superior size category compared to AL-31. If they really have something especial, we will know for sure.

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    Post  wilhelm Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:05 pm

    Yes, I thought so too.
    It is a Soyuz product, and is much developed from the original R79.
    It's a larger engine than the Al-31 class engine, but with more thrust.
    Perhaps more suitable for either a larger twin engined combat jet than the Su-57, or in single engined configuration.
    I seem to recall the Su-47 was slated to use a conventional R79 development, and that the D30 engines on the prototype were an interim solution. But I might be remembering incorrectly.

    Definitely a larger engine.

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    Post  wilhelm Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:13 pm

    Hmmm...actually, one wonders if this might suit the mooted Mig-31 replacement...
    But here, by-pass ratio becomes very important in the context of speed.
    Wasn't there talk of a possible VTOL combat jet development in the last year or 2?
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    Post  LMFS Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:08 pm

    wilhelm wrote:Hmmm...actually, one wonders if this might suit the mooted Mig-31 replacement...
    But here, by-pass ratio becomes very important in the context of speed.
    Wasn't there talk of a possible VTOL combat jet development in the last year or 2?

    If you see the available material from UEC about their roadmap, the engine for the PAK-DP should be also a development of the izd. 30, which only makes sense, since the very point of creating a conglomerate like UEC is to avoid replicating the same work at several companies, none of them having the actual means to work at a state of the art level due to constrained resources. In Russia the company in charge of such tactical aviation developments is Lyulka-Saturn, and they have achieved in the izd. 30, by their own claims, an engine of 5.5G level as per its specific characteristics, like for instance highest specific thrust with the same specific fuel consumption of the AL-31F. No offense meant to Soyuz, but optimization of any parameter at modern jet engines is an extremely difficult endeavor and hence any claim about revolutionary efficiency increases needs to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.

    Borisov indeed talked about a "S/VTOL" plane, but, from what I recall, it was never specified if they wanted a plane capable of short take off like a Su-57 or something like a modern Yak-141. Nothing against a bigger 5G engine for bigger planes, but maybe the easiest way is to enlarge the izd. 30 by adding a larger compressor (like F119 -> F135) or enlarging the core itself. Starting a parallel development path at two different companies within UEC does not seem an intelligent way of using resources.

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    Post  GarryB Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:26 pm

    BTW it is not just experts, but obviously engine companies are trying to sell product so they will of course promote their new products to fill every role and do every job, but engines have designs that suit some flight regimes and don't suit others...

    For instance the PD-35 is going to be very powerful, but being a high bypass turbofan engine it will not be suitable for supersonic use no matter what plane you put it into.

    For super cruise performance you need a low bypass turbofan... almost a pure turbojet because high airflow speed is important for super cruising.

    Saturn is very good at making Subpar products. Tumansky has made a lot of revolutionary products in the past

    I can't agree with that, the Al-31 was a very good engine in its time and the Al-41 is a natural development that further improves on performance.

    Saturn has dominated for a while now with export sales of Flankers and domestic purchases of the range of Flanker types and their association with Sukhoi, and sometimes that leads to complacency, and the other engine makers have to work harder despite there being very few scraps left over for them to work towards... they become more innovative and take risks because if they don't they will remain in the shadows... the same with MiG really.

    I have always had a soft spot for the underdog... except when it is contrived... growing up with American cartoons like Road Runner and Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck etc etc it was always predator prey and the natural predator... would always lose... Elmer Fudd always defeated by Bugs Bunny, Foghorn Leghorn always beats the dog, Tweety always beating Sylvester... the opposite of reality... I was always rooting for the natural winner because Disney portrayed them as lifes losers... how ironic is that.

    The new model 30 engine is supposed to be a new from scratch design 5th gen engine with much better performance in all regards to their previous models...

    And of course Klimov and Saturn and Soyuz are in the background already very busy making lots of other things like helicopter engines and ship propulsion systems and systems for pumping stations and power stations... at sea or on land... both have an interesting and expanding range of engine expertise and I would be very interesting in seeing any engine types they are coming out with.

    Its just a monster for something about the same size as a Klimov RD33 which is a little smaller than a GE-F414.

    I had heard talk of an evolution of the RD-33 using new engine technology that was going to be in the 12 ton thrust range that was specifically designed for twin engined light fighters... both land and carrier based... for a while it was speculated to be the RD-45 or something but very little official information was available.

    They say they use a revolutionary compressor technology, but if they were heads and shoulders above the rest of the world then they would not be needing to make such outlandish claims.

    When it is Saturn or Sukhoi you often take them at their word LMFS... making outlandish claims is pointless for them because everyone who buys will want to see proof and if you can't deliver you wont sell.

    And the Russian military are not impressed by claims... if it does not work they wont buy it.

    Perhaps more suitable for either a larger twin engined combat jet than the Su-57, or in single engined configuration.

    The R-79 is a very big engine and was designed for single engined aircraft (not counting lift jets)... actually on a weird tangent... the lift engines in the Yak-141 are amazingly light for their power... they are like 400kg each but put out comparable thrust to the engines in the Su-25.... amazing...

    If you see the available material from UEC about their roadmap, the engine for the PAK-DP should be also a development of the izd. 30, which only makes sense, since the very point of creating a conglomerate like UEC is to avoid replicating the same work at several companies,

    Another point of the UEC is to keep the different companies up to date and state of the art in engine design and development... if you give all the jobs to the designer of one engine what are the other design companies going to be doing?

    Traditionally they set specs for engines and all the engine companies make engines to compete for that job... the winner gets their engine put into production... the losers normally adapt their designs for other jobs... but the odds on one engine being suitable for every job is very low... for instance the engine in the Su-30, Su-34, Su-35, and Su-57 and Su-75 could be one and the same... because flight speeds and ranges and operational envelopes are all very similar and they are also similarly sized aircraft too.

    The exception might be the Su-75 because if they choose a different light 5th gen fighter it might have two engines instead of one or they might decide a more powerful single engine is needed.

    The PAK DP is going to be an interceptor that will spend most of its time at supersonic speeds normally operating at high to very high altitudes... it will likely also be able to supercruise very easily... the high speed will require at the very least ramjet use... which none of these other aircraft would need or use.

    I think the PAK DP will have a unique engine in the same way the MiG-31 used a different engine from the Su-27... different levels of thrust and also different flight ranges.

    No offense meant to Soyuz, but optimization of any parameter at modern jet engines is an extremely difficult endeavor and hence any claim about revolutionary efficiency increases needs to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.

    So Saturns claims are true but Soyuz can't be trusted?

    Both are trying to sell engines... why can't we trust them both?

    but maybe the easiest way is to enlarge the izd. 30 by adding a larger compressor (like F119 -> F135) or enlarging the core itself. Starting a parallel development path at two different companies within UEC does not seem an intelligent way of using resources.

    There is no way they will find one engine that can do absolutely everything, so having different engine types is a good thing and not a bad thing.

    Twin engined light fighters make sense, and as such smaller buts still powerful and fuel efficient engines are needed too...

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    Post  wilhelm Mon Aug 15, 2022 5:51 am

    GarryB wrote:
    The R-79 is a very big engine and was designed for single engined aircraft (not counting lift jets)... actually on a weird tangent... the lift engines in the Yak-141 are amazingly light for their power... they are like 400kg each but put out comparable thrust to the engines in the Su-25.... amazing...
    The RD-41 lift engines on the Yak-141, and indeed the RD-38 on the Yak-38 indeed have extremely good power-to -weight ratios.

    But I suspect their extreme lightness is a result of materials choice and lighter construction, as these lift engines typically only operate for brief periods of time, as opposed to the main propulsion engine which obviously operated continuously.

    An illustration is Rolls Royce lift engines, as used in the VK191 aircraft, the RB162.
    Like the Russian engines, it was also lightweight, and powerful, but only used briefly compared to the main engine. The RB162 was only used, apart from as a lift engine, as an auxiliary boost engine in the Trident airliner, which is another application only requiring relatively brief running time.

    I have always been fascinated by these lift engines, and how extremely lightweight they are for their thrust, with thrust to weight ratios of between 15 and 20 to 1.
    But most certainly, they have material and design choices fitting their roles.

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    Post  LMFS Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:59 am

    GarryB wrote:When it is Saturn or Sukhoi you often take them at their word LMFS... making outlandish claims is pointless for them because everyone who buys will want to see proof and if you can't deliver you wont sell.

    And the Russian military are not impressed by claims... if it does not work they wont buy it.

    Exactly, they are in the responsibility to deliver and that means they:

    1. Do not need to draw attention to get the order
    2. Better keep expectations reasonable

    Those two companies have also a solid track record in terms of technical credibility, so no point in dismissing their statements as a principle.

    The R-79 is a very big engine and was designed for single engined aircraft (not counting lift jets)... actually on a weird tangent... the lift engines in the Yak-141 are amazingly light for their power... they are like 400kg each but put out comparable thrust to the engines in the Su-25.... amazing...

    They were very simple, pure turbojets without any other design constraint than being small, light and powerful. SFC or flight regimes were not an issue.

    Another point of the UEC is to keep the different companies up to date and state of the art in engine design and development... if you give all the jobs to the designer of one engine what are the other design companies going to be doing?

    State of the art belongs to the conglomerate, each of the companies will act as a competence center for a particular engine line, like turbofan for tactical aircraft, gas compressors, marine engines, high BPR for airliners, turboshafts for helicopters and propeller aircraft etc. This is already happening with Aviadvigatel, Klimov, Saturn etc. Of course for some companies this can be less attractive than for others, given there can only be as many branches in which to reasonably divide competences and they may be left with smaller or less advanced parts of the business. But it makes sense for the Russian industry as a whole and that is what is being implemented.

    Traditionally they set specs for engines and all the engine companies make engines to compete for that job... the winner gets their engine put into production... the losers normally adapt their designs for other jobs... but the odds on one engine being suitable for every job is very low... for instance the engine in the Su-30, Su-34, Su-35, and Su-57 and Su-75 could be one and the same... because flight speeds and ranges and operational envelopes are all very similar and they are also similarly sized aircraft too.

    Those are Saturn engines, with Salut manufacturing and also applying their design savvy to some versions of it. I can imagine different design bureaus can be called to propose their ideas for any new project, as it happened in the Soviet times, but chances are that the incumbent competence center should have obvious advantages.

    The exception might be the Su-75 because if they choose a different light 5th gen fighter it might have two engines instead of one or they might decide a more powerful single engine is needed.

    For Su-75 it is rather clear, the plane is designed for an izd. 30 level engine, the currently presented version being export oriented and relying on some additional upgrade of the AL-41F1 of up to 16 tf. With full 18 tf of the izd. 30 the plane would be served quite well.

    The PAK DP is going to be an interceptor that will spend most of its time at supersonic speeds normally operating at high to very high altitudes... it will likely also be able to supercruise very easily... the high speed will require at the very least ramjet use... which none of these other aircraft would need or use.

    I think the PAK DP will have a unique engine in the same way the MiG-31 used a different engine from the Su-27... different levels of thrust and also different flight ranges.

    Check UEC's own roadmap. The engine can be based on the izd. 30 and use a RTA-like technology as already explained, of course there should be specific design elements but that does not impede that the gas generator, control, base technologies and materials come from the izd.30

    So Saturns claims are true but Soyuz can't be trusted?

    Both are trying to sell engines... why can't we trust them both?

    See above. Soyuz has no known real order or real R579 product and they are making very bold claims. Something does not add up.
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    Post  lancelot Mon Aug 15, 2022 7:20 am

    Tumansky engines had for a long time a history of being cheap engines you could redline to beat other fighters. e.g. the MiG-23 engines they made.
    Or the MiG-25 engines. This is fine for armed forces which will be attrited away but not for what you are seeing the RuAF doing today. The RuAF is losing few planes and is not engaged in peer vs peer conflict.

    The Izd. 30 engine core is just fine for all these projects. This Tumansky engine is unnecessary duplication. And that engine in the photos, it seems to use old style metallurgy and materials. It even has metal blades, which aren't even titanium, this looks like a cheap engine for a mass produced product. Russia has a massive economic disparity with the West. They can't continue doing things Soviet style with mass produced products. They cannot mass produce people let alone pilots. I could see this being used in a drone, but for an actual manned combat aircraft, this seems way too weak. Look, we are seeing Cold War 2.0 in action. You need combat machines with high reliability. Otherwise, it becomes a war of production, which Russia alone simply cannot win long term. In 5, or 8, years you will see NATO start churning out their new kit. It's how the military industry rolls.

    I think Russia and China need to severely consider at least using the same standards for ammo and things like that. Long term. Russia can only win this not so covert conflict with HATO with superior technology and lightning speed. Countries like China and India will need to either be on Russia's side or at worst be neutral. I doubt China will continue being neutral if the integrity of Russian territory itself is threatened, or their own like the US stationing troops in Taiwan like they did with the rotations in Ukraine. The US will be fine sawing Taiwan off, just like they are doing with Ukraine, they are just expendables for them. It is just an excuse for Uncle Sam to have eaten at the all you can eat Chinese buffet for like 3 decades and not fork out and pay the bill like the EU did to Russia.

    Izd. 30, if it has issues, just talk with the guys at Rosatom and Roscosmos, they will figure it out. There is nothing special about that kind of combustion temperature and oxidative stress to the space or even the nuclear industry. The plasma coating report posted here as used in the production line at Samara is just one example of how to do it. It is probably a matter of getting the right coatings or welding for Izd. 30 and those people have that one issue nailed down.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:29 am

    For Su-75 it is rather clear, the plane is designed for an izd. 30 level engine, the currently presented version being export oriented and relying on some additional upgrade of the AL-41F1 of up to 16 tf. With full 18 tf of the izd. 30 the plane would be served quite well.

    There are lot of reasons for commonality of engines with the Su-57, but for some export users that makes little sense if they don't also intend to buy Su-57s which will be rather more expensive to buy and operate (the whole purpose of the Su-75 is affordable to buy and to use).

    Some export customers might actually want a different engine or might not be allowed a newer engine so as not to give away engine technology secrets.

    Some export customers might want a twin jet lighter fighter... the Chinese managed to create a very F-35 like fighter with two engines instead of one... two smaller less powerful engines should be cheaper to buy and to operate and having two of them in the aircraft means they give nothing away in terms of power... a single engined MiG-29 with an Al-31 at about 12.5 tons of thrust would not on paper be that much superior to the actual MiG-29 with two 8 ton thrust engines allowing 16 tons thrust in the early models. Improved Al-31s have moved to 14-15 tons with a lot of work, but improving the twin engines means double the benefit... current model RD-33s at 9 tons thrust means two tons extra thrust for the aircraft with two engines.


    Check UEC's own roadmap. The engine can be based on the izd. 30 and use a RTA-like technology as already explained, of course there should be specific design elements but that does not impede that the gas generator, control, base technologies and materials come from the izd.30

    That slide was put together by someone promoting the izd 30... there could easily be slides showing other new prototype engines we don't know about that could do the same or perhaps even better. Traditionally it is the failed models that are shown first to get export orders while the successful products are kept secret as long as possible.

    They have already said the Su-75 is for export and that the Russian AF has not committed to it in any way... which is not to say they wont be interested and wont follow development very carefully, but the plan was for Sukhoi to develop the heavy 5th gen fighter and MiG to develop the light 5th gen fighter...


    See above. Soyuz has no known real order or real R579 product and they are making very bold claims. Something does not add up.

    Meaning they can use very new technologies to try to get an edge... if those new technologies pay off then bold claims can be made.

    There is no value in lying... they will have to prove themselves before any deals get inked... there are no investors they can be milking...

    Tumansky engines had for a long time a history of being cheap engines you could redline to beat other fighters. e.g. the MiG-23 engines they made.

    Most Soviet makers had a history of making weapons and equipment for war, rather than looking good in parades and faked exercises.

    And that engine in the photos, it seems to use old style metallurgy and materials. It even has metal blades, which aren't even titanium, this looks like a cheap engine for a mass produced product.

    The light 5th gen fighter needs to be low cost... cheap to buy and cheap to operate... using super expensive materials is not a good solution to such a problem.

    Russia has a massive economic disparity with the West. They can't continue doing things Soviet style with mass produced products.

    Russia is introducing technology and weapons and equipment every bit as good as western equivalents and in many areas actually better, and have managed to contain the prices of the new technology to an astounding level... 19K pounds for NLAW!!!! Their Kornets were exported for $5K US per missile and the UK spends almost four times more on a short range unguided RPG wannabe...

    The real disparity between Russia and the west is that Russian companies deliver astounding value for money for national survival, while western companies extort as much cash out of their taxpayer citizens as they think they can... and then a little more.

    You need combat machines with high reliability.

    A full scale war with the west and reliability wont be a huge issue... the old disposable Soviet kit was very reliable for the short period it was used and then replaced... in comparison western gear is fussy and needs air conditioning and heated tents for storage at night... Russian gear is going up against many western wanderwaffle and seems to be getting the job done. Western artillery has not be eliminated over night but Russian artillery is literally decimating the enemy in a way that western military forces would simply not endure. The west relies heavily on air power for both attack and defence... and it is pretty clear that Russian air defence capacity would wear them down rapidly in both defence and attack... we talk about their air power numbers advantage over Russia, but when all those F-35s and Rafales and Typhoons and Gripens have had a bloody nose and more than half are gone in their first few attacks and the response is their airfields are hammered... which planes and from where are going to rush forward to fill the gaps... fighter aircraft can't stop a Zircon attack...

    Otherwise, it becomes a war of production, which Russia alone simply cannot win long term.

    War against HATO wont be limited like the current conflict.... all HATO territory near Russia or Russian territory will be targeted to eliminate military units that threaten to cross the border and enter Russian territory... this will mean Finland and Poland and the Baltic states... troop concentrations and airfields and HQs.

    In 5, or 8, years you will see NATO start churning out their new kit. It's how the military industry rolls.

    Russia has been churning out new kit for the last decade and if anything is only going to increase and expand.

    Not sure we are talking about the same HATO... is this the HATO that complained and failed to spend 2% of their GDP on their own defence spending?

    Russia should cut off all gas and energy sales to the EU countries that are supporting the Ukraine... lets see what that does to their defence budget and their economies... how keen will they be for conflict then?

    Russia can only win this not so covert conflict with HATO with superior technology and lightning speed.

    There can be no winner in such a conflict... Ukraine needs to be sorted out and I suspect HATO will not be party to any agreements or negotiations.... they are just not helpful in such a thing... they rendered the Minsk agreements worthless and will do the same for any future agreement over the fate of Ukraine... they are not independent.

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    Post  LMFS Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:23 am

    GarryB wrote:There are lot of reasons for commonality of engines with the Su-57, but for some export users that makes little sense if they don't also intend to buy Su-57s which will be rather more expensive to buy and operate (the whole purpose of the Su-75 is affordable to buy and to use).

    The engine itself can be much cheaper and more reliable if it is produced in bigger numbers and covers more units of the VKS

    Some export customers might actually want a different engine or might not be allowed a newer engine so as not to give away engine technology secrets.

    Most probably no export customer will get the izd. 30 until it stops being state of the art.

    Some export customers might want a twin jet lighter fighter... the Chinese managed to create a very F-35 like fighter with two engines instead of one... two smaller less powerful engines should be cheaper to buy and to operate and having two of them in the aircraft means they give nothing away in terms of power... a single engined MiG-29 with an Al-31 at about 12.5 tons of thrust would not on paper be that much superior to the actual MiG-29 with two 8 ton thrust engines allowing 16 tons thrust in the early models. Improved Al-31s have moved to 14-15 tons with a lot of work, but improving the twin engines means double the benefit... current model RD-33s at 9 tons thrust means two tons extra thrust for the aircraft with two engines.

    Sukhoi has already explained the reason for the single engine plane and why it is cheaper than twin engine (it should be obvious regardless), no need for me to insist on their arguments.

    That slide was put together by someone promoting the izd 30...

    It was done by UEC which means 1 trillion times more in the know than you or me...

    there could easily be slides showing other new prototype engines we don't know about that could do the same or perhaps even better.

    Maybe, but they were covering basically the whole range of applications in UEC's future portfolio.

    They have already said the Su-75 is for export and that the Russian AF has not committed to it in any way... which is not to say they wont be interested and wont follow development very carefully, but the plan was for Sukhoi to develop the heavy 5th gen fighter and MiG to develop the light 5th gen fighter...

    Those plans passed the drain long time ago. We have fresh statements from Slyusar (it should serve as food for thought that he stresses the fact that the LTS has the kind of performance it has re. payload and range in order to attend the VKs' needs) and we all know VKS will buy the Su-75. But ok.

    here is no value in lying... they will have to prove themselves before any deals get inked... there are no investors they can be milking...

    They need money to actually bring those ideas to metal and that is where investors may not want to take the risk.

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